[BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED THE TRINITY OF GOD WAS NOT. What rational mind, when it hears that before the creation of the world there were three Divine Persons, called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, does not say within itself while thinking of them, "What is meant by a Son born from God the Father from eternity? How could He be born? What is the Holy Spirit proceeding from God the Father through the Son from eternity?How could He proceed and become God by Himself?How could a person beget a person from eternity? and both produce a person? Is not a person a person? How can three Persons, of which each is God, be conjoined into one God, otherwise than into one person? And yet this is contrary to theology, and this to that. How can the Divinity be divided into three Persons, and yet not into three Gods, when yet each Person is God? How can the Divine essence, which is one, the same, and indivisible, fall into number, hence be either divided or multiplied? How can three Divine Persons be together and take counsel together in a non-extense of space, such as was before the world was created? How, from Jehovah God, who is One, and thence Sole, Infinite, Immense, Eternal, and Omnipotent, could there be produced three equals to Himself? How can a Trinity of Persons be conceived of in the Unity of God, and the Unity of God in a Trinity of Persons? Besides the idea of plurality destroys the idea of unity, and vice versa. Perhaps it would have been possible for the Greeks and Romans also to unite all their gods into one, which were many, by identity only of essence." The rational mind, in revolving and reflecting upon a Trinity of Persons in the Divinity from eternity, might also consider of what use was it that a Son was born, and that the Holy Spirit went forth from the Father through the Son before the world was created? Was there a use for three to consult how the universe should be created? And that three should create it? When yet the universe was created by the one God? Neither was there occasion that the Son should redeem, when yet redemption was effected after the world was created, in the fulness of time.That the Holy Spirit should sanctify, because as yet there was no man to be sanctified. Therefore if there were those uses in God's idea, still they were not [realized] before the creation of the world, but after it actually existed; from which it follows, that the Trinity from eternity was not a real Trinity, but ideal, and still more so is a Trinity of Persons. Who in the church, while reading the Athanasian Creed, is able to understand this? That it is of the Christian verity, that each Person by Himself is God, and yet that it is not lawful by the Catholic religion to account them three Gods? Is not religion thus to him something other than truth? and that in truth three Persons are three Gods, but that from religion they are one God? A trinity of Persons in the Divinity before the world was created, did not come into the mind of any one from the time of Adam down to the advent of the Lord, as is clear from the Word of the Old Testament, and from histories concerning the religion of the ancients. Neither did it come into the mind of the Apostles, as is evident from their writings in the Word. Neither did it come into the mind of any one in the Apostolic Church, which was before the Council of Nice, as appears from the Apostles' Creed, in which no Son from eternity is mentioned, but a Son born from the Virgin Mary. A Trinity of Persons from eternity is not only above reason, but opposed to it. It is against reason that three Persons created the universe; that there were three Persons, and each one God, and not three Gods but one, and then three Persons and not one Person. Will not the New Church about to come call this age of the old church benighted or barbarous, when they worshiped three Gods? Similarly irrational are those things which are derived from that Trinity. A Trinity of Persons in the Divinity from eternity was first taught by the Nicene Council, as appears from the two Creeds, the Nicene and the Athanasian. And afterwards it was received by the churches as the principal dogma, and as the head of the doctrines, after that time even to the present day. There were two reasons why that Trinity was given forth by the Council of Nice; the first was, that they knew not how otherwise to dissipate the scandals of Arius, who denied the Divinity of the Lord; the other, because they did not understand what is written by the evangelist John (Chap. 1. 1, 2, 10, 14; 16. 28; 17. 5). How these things are to be understood may be seen above. The Divinity before the world was created as believed according to the Nicene Council and the churches after that, to consist of three Persons each of which was God, and that from the first Person was born a second, and from these two went forth a third, is not only above the understanding, but contrary to it, and the faith of a paradox, which is opposed to the rational understanding. It is a faith in which there is not anything of the church, but a persuasion of the false, such as obtains with those who are insane in religious matters. But still it is not here said of those who do not see [these things to be] contradictory and contrary to the Sacred Scripture and yet believe them, that they are insane in religious matters; thus it is not said of the Council of Nice, nor of the churches derived from it after that time, because they did not see. Harry]

BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED THE TRINITY OF GOD WAS NOT.
 
What rational mind, when it hears that before the creation of the world there were three Divine Persons, called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, does not say within itself while thinking of them, "What is meant by a Son born from God the Father from eternity?

 How could He be born? What is the Holy Spirit proceeding from God the Father through the Son from eternity?How could He proceed and become God by Himself?

How could a person beget a person from eternity? and both produce a person? Is not a person a person?
How can three Persons, of which each is God, be conjoined into one God, otherwise than into one person? And yet this is contrary to theology, and this to that. How can the Divinity be divided into three Persons, and yet not into three Gods, when yet each Person is God?

How can the Divine essence, which is one, the same, and indivisible, fall into number, hence be either divided or multiplied?

 How can three Divine Persons be together and take counsel together in a non-extense of space, such as was before the world was created?

 How, from Jehovah God, who is One, and thence Sole, Infinite, Immense, Eternal, and Omnipotent, could there be produced three equals to Himself?

 How can a Trinity of Persons be conceived of in the Unity of God, and the Unity of God in a Trinity of Persons?

Besides the idea of plurality destroys the idea of unity, and vice versa. Perhaps it would have been possible for the Greeks and Romans also to unite all their gods into one, which were many, by identity only of essence."

The rational mind, in revolving and reflecting upon a Trinity of Persons in the Divinity from eternity, might also consider of what use was it that a Son was born, and that the Holy Spirit went forth from the Father through the Son before the world was created?

Was there a use for three to consult how the universe should be created? And that three should create it? When yet the universe was created by the one God?

 Neither was there occasion that the Son should redeem, when yet redemption was effected after the world was created, in the fulness of time.

That the Holy Spirit should sanctify, because as yet there was no man to be sanctified. Therefore if there were those uses in God's idea, still they were not [realized] before the creation of the world, but after it actually existed; from which it follows, that the Trinity from eternity was not a real Trinity, but ideal, and still more so is a Trinity of Persons.

 Who in the church, while reading the Athanasian Creed, is able to understand this? That it is of the Christian verity, that each Person by Himself is God, and yet that it is not lawful by the Catholic religion to account them three Gods?

 Is not religion thus to him something other than truth? and that in truth three Persons are three Gods, but that from religion they are one God?
 
A trinity of Persons in the Divinity before the world was created, did not come into the mind of any one from the time of Adam down to the advent of the Lord, as is clear from the Word of the Old Testament, and from histories concerning the religion of the ancients. Neither did it come into the mind of the Apostles, as is evident from their writings in the Word.

Neither did it come into the mind of any one in the Apostolic Church, which was before the Council of Nice, as appears from the Apostles' Creed, in which no Son from eternity is mentioned, but a Son born from the Virgin Mary.

A Trinity of Persons from eternity is not only above reason, but opposed to it. It is against reason that three Persons created the universe; that there were three Persons, and each one God, and not three Gods but one, and then three Persons and not one Person.

 Will not the New Church about to come call this age of the old church benighted or barbarous, when they worshiped three Gods? Similarly irrational are those things which are derived from that Trinity.

A Trinity of Persons in the Divinity from eternity was first taught by the Nicene Council, as appears from the two Creeds, the Nicene and the Athanasian. And afterwards it was received by the churches as the principal dogma, and as the head of the doctrines, after that time even to the present day.

There were two reasons why that Trinity was given forth by the Council of Nice; the first was, that they knew not how otherwise to dissipate the scandals of Arius, who denied the Divinity of the Lord; the other, because they did not understand what is written by the evangelist John (Chap. 1. 1, 2, 10, 14; 16. 28; 17. 5). How these things are to be understood may be seen above.

The Divinity before the world was created as believed according to the Nicene Council and the churches after that, to consist of three Persons each of which was God, and that from the first Person was born a second, and from these two went forth a third, is not only above the understanding, but contrary to it, and the faith of a paradox, which is opposed to the rational understanding.

 It is a faith in which there is not anything of the church, but a persuasion of the false, such as obtains with those who are insane in religious matters.

 But still it is not here said of those who do not see [these things to be] contradictory and contrary to the Sacred Scripture and yet believe them, that they are insane in religious matters; thus it is not said of the Council of Nice, nor of the churches derived from it after that time, because they did not see.

Harry
 
 

However, as you eluded to SonofAslan, we dont even need philosophical writers to ease our confusion. If we accept what God has written as truth, then we will have taken much that we cant understand and put faith to it. God honours faith much more than our simple understanding of worldly explanations. God will honour faith with a divine understanding of his being that fills our own lives with an understanding of our own body, soul and spirit. As God has given us a three part existence to better understand his will in our lives.

 God bless.

Why is it so hard to understand that God doesn't need to be three persons. One God is the Creator, Redeem and Regenerator.

 The only reason Christians today believe in the three Divine persons is because they were taught from childhood to believe something that is false.

This doctrine of three Divine persons has been false since the Council of Nicea in the year 325 AD. The doctrine of three Divine persons from eternity was accepted at that Council and thereby turned the church into a theater furnished with painted hangings, wherein the actors were representing new plays.

http://newearth.org/frontier

Harry[/b]

[To All,There are two groups of saying in the Gospels that seem to conflict with each other.Here are some examples of the first group: Jesus said: "I am come from God" (John 8:42). "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do". (John 5:19) Simon Peter said: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matt. 16:16) At the Lord's baptism a voice from heaven was heard to say: "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." ("Matt. 3:17) The Lord also said: "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28), and "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me." (John 14:6). On the cross Jesus said: "Father, forgive them ..." (Luke 23:34), and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46) Also, after the resurrection, the Lord said to the disciples, "Teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19) In this last passage, not only does it seem that the Father and the Son are distinct, but also that there is yet a third Divine Person or Being, the Holy Spirit.If we were to consult only such passages as these, and ignore all the others that seem to conflict with them, we might come to the conclusion that God is in three Persons. This is extremely puzzling to anyone of a reflective turn of mind, because his common sense tells him that there simply cannot be three Divine Persons, or three Divine Beings because this is the same as saying that there can be three Infinities of three Gods. The task of uniting three distinct Divinities into one God is a forlornly hopeless task.Moreover, the second thing to be noted is that while it has usually been taken for granted that in these passages the terms "Father" and "Son" always refer to people, this is not necessarily the case. Do we not say in common speech, "The wish is father to the thought?" And in the Word we find a similar usage: "When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)Harry]

To All,
There are two groups of saying in the Gospels that seem to conflict with each other.
Here are some examples of the first group:

Jesus said: "I am come from God" (John 8:42).

 "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do". (John 5:19)

 Simon Peter said: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matt. 16:16)

At the Lord's baptism a voice from heaven was heard to say: "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." ("Matt. 3:17)

The Lord also said: "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28), and "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me." (John 14:6).

 On the cross Jesus said: "Father, forgive them ..." (Luke 23:34), and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46)

Also, after the resurrection, the Lord said to the disciples, "Teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)

 In this last passage, not only does it seem that the Father and the Son are distinct, but also that there is yet a third Divine Person or Being, the Holy Spirit.

If we were to consult only such passages as these, and ignore all the others that seem to conflict with them, we might come to the conclusion that God is in three Persons.

This is extremely puzzling to anyone of a reflective turn of mind, because his common sense tells him that there simply cannot be three Divine Persons, or three Divine Beings because this is the same as saying that there can be three Infinities of three Gods. The task of uniting three distinct Divinities into one God is a forlornly hopeless task.

Moreover, the second thing to be noted is that while it has usually been taken for granted that in these passages the terms "Father" and "Son" always refer to people, this is not necessarily the case. Do we not say in common speech, "The wish is father to the thought?" And in the Word we find a similar usage: "When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)



Harry

[To All, One God is Substance itself and Form itself and angels and men are substances and forms from Him, and so far as they are in Him and He in them are images and likenesses of Him. As God is Esse He is also Substance. For unless Esse is substance it is a figment of the reason.For substance has subsistent being. Moreover, one who is a substance is also a form.For unless a substance is a form it is a figment of the reason. Wherefore both substance and form may be predicated of God, but in the sense that He is the only, the very, and the primal Substance and Form. That this Form is the verily Human Form, that is, that God is verily Man, infinite in every respect, has been shown in Angelic Wisdom concerning the Divine Love and Divine Wisdom, published at Amsterdam in 1763; where it is also shown that angels and men are substances and forms created and organized for receiving what is Divine flowing into them through heaven. For this reason they are called in the Book of Creation "images and likenesses of God" (Gen. 1:26, 27); and elsewhere "His sons," and "born of Him." In the course of this work it will be fully shown that so far as man lives under Divine direction, that is, suffers himself to be led by God, so far he becomes an image of God more and more interiorly. Unless an idea is formed of God as the primal Substance and Form, and of His Form as the verily Human Form, the human mind may easily involve itself in spectral fancies about God Himself, the origin of man, and the creation of the world. Harry]

To All,
 One God is Substance itself and Form itself and angels and men are substances and forms from Him, and so far as they are in Him and He in them are images and likenesses of Him.

As God is Esse He is also Substance. For unless Esse is substance it is a figment of the reason.

For substance has subsistent being. Moreover, one who is a substance is also a form.

For unless a substance is a form it is a figment of the reason. Wherefore both substance and form may be predicated of God, but in the sense that He is the only, the very, and the primal Substance and Form.

That this Form is the verily Human Form, that is, that God is verily Man, infinite in every respect, has been shown in Angelic Wisdom concerning the Divine Love and Divine Wisdom, published at Amsterdam in 1763; where it is also shown that angels and men are substances and forms created and organized for receiving what is Divine flowing into them through heaven. For this reason they are called in the Book of Creation "images and likenesses of God" (Gen. 1:26, 27); and elsewhere "His sons," and "born of Him."

 In the course of this work it will be fully shown that so far as man lives under Divine direction, that is, suffers himself to be led by God, so far he becomes an image of God more and more interiorly.

Unless an idea is formed of God as the primal Substance and Form, and of His Form as the verily Human Form, the human mind may easily involve itself in spectral fancies about God Himself, the origin of man, and the creation of the world.

Harry

Read this::::

According to Swedenborg the red dragon in Revelation means the Reformed Church or any other protestant church that accepts three gods and make the Lord two,and accept faith without charity as saving.Rev.12:3.

Rev.12:
Verse 3. "And another sign was seen in heaven," signifies revelation from the Lord concerning those who are against the New Church and its doctrine. "And behold a great red dragon," signifies those in the Church of the Reformed who make God three and the Lord two, and who separate charity from faith, and make faith alone as saving, and not charity at the same time. "Having seven heads," signifies insanity from the truths of the Word falsified and profaned. "And ten horns," signifies much power. "And upon his heads seven diadems," signifies all the truths of the Word falsified and profaned.

Romans 3:28), that "man is justified by faith without the works of the Law," was not rightly understood, because Paul by "the works of the Law" meant the works of the Mosaic law, which was for the Jews; which we also clearly see from his words to Peter; whom he rebuked for judaizing, when yet he knew that "no one is justified by the works of the Law" (Galatians 2:14-16); also, that he distinguishes between the law of faith and the law of works; and between Jews and Gentiles, or circumcision and uncircumcision, meaning by circumcision, Judaism, as everywhere else; and likewise from his summing up with these words:
Do we then abrogate the law through faith? Not so, but we establish the Law (Rom. 3:31).
 
He says all these things in one series (Romans 3:27-31); and he also says in the preceding chapter:
For not the hearers of the Law are justified by God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified (Rom. 3:13).

God will render to every man according to his deeds (Rom. 2:6).
 
We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, whether they be good or evil (2 Cor. 5:10).

Besides many other things from him; from which it is evident that Paul rejects faith without good works, equally with James (2:17-26).

Harry

The Word was with God. That is the Son was with the Father.

Truth is in good,and good is in truth. Jehovah God came into this world as Divine Truth, which is the Word,together with Divine Love.

This my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Jehovah God saying I am well please to have a Human Form. He put on this Human so He may redeem mankind. Jehovah God became one of us, a Man, a teacher, a leader of men. In the Word the Jehovah means "love" and the word God means "truth". In the book of Genesis the word God is used, because the six days of creation means six levels of regeneration.

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :

Palingenesis \Pal`in*gen"e*sis\, Palingenesy \Pal`in*gen"e*sy\,
n. [Gr. ?; ? again + ? birth: cf. F. paling['e]n['e]sie. See
Genesis.]
1. A new birth; a re-creation; a regeneration; a continued
existence in different manner or form.A new person.Born again.
 
Harry

The Word was with God. That is the Son was with the Father.

Truth is in good,and good is in truth.

Harry

From myself: "And the Word was with God." With God, means, in God,for truth is in good,and good is in truth, not a person with another.

 If you agree that the Father and Son were together when this Gospel by John was written, than the two must be one as soul and body of Jesus Christ.

One Person was seen by the Disciples, not two.The Lord saided in John 14:8, "He that hath seen Me Hath seen the Father." The Father was in the Lord as His soul.

 No one has seen the Father, but the Son who is in the bossom of the Father.

The Father is greater than the Son, meaning the Soul is greater than the Body since it directs it.

(1) The Word was God. The Word had the character and nature of God; what God was, the Word was.

From myself: This means there is only one God in whom is the Creator and the Word.

(2) The personal pronoun him is applied to the Word, indicating that the Word is a personal being.

From my self: There no such thing as a personal saviour. An invention made up by the Protestants, just like the three persons from eternity before creation was an invention by the Catholic church.A man made trinity from la la land.

 There only one Redeemer and Saviour.

Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God else beside Me? A just God and a Savior, there is none beside Me (Isa. 45:21, 22).

I am Jehovah; and beside Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).
 
I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God beside Me and there is no Savior beside Me (Hos. 13:4).

(3) The  Word was with God. The term with indicates that the Word was not the same Person as the One with whom he was, One who is also referred to as God.

From myself: Who ever taught you this has no understanding of the Word. The words "with God" means in God.

It is but little understood in the church why the Lord is called the Word. It is because "the Word" signifies Divine Truth or Divine Wisdom, and the Lord is Divine Truth itself or Divine Wisdom itself.

This is why He is called the Light, of which also it is said that it came into the world. As the Divine Wisdom and the Divine Love make  one in the Lord.

These two, Divine Wisdom and Divine Love have been one in Jehovah God for eternity, it is said, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." "Life" is Divine love; and "light" is Divine wisdom.

It is this one that is meant by, "In the beginning the Word was with God, and God was the Word." "With God," means in God, for wisdom is in love, and love in wisdom.

The Divine Love and Divine Wisdom in Jehovah God is His Spirit, and the Spirit is what the person is. It does not mean a third person in the Old Testament.

Jehovah God is the Word made flesh, not a second person nor third a person,which you claim is the holy spirit.

 The Prophets spoke the Word from Jehovah God, not from the holy spirit. The Holy Spirit wasn't until Jesus was glorified.
Jesus Christ is Jehovah God the Creator in the Human.

Harry

[To All, The Divine Trinity is in the Lord. Christians were examined in the other life concerning the idea they had of one God, and it was found that they had an idea of three persons, which are three gods. The Divine Trinity may be conceived in one Divine Person, and as one God, but not in three Persons . God is one, in Person and in Essence.The DivineTrinity is in one Divine Person.In the Lord, is the Divine itself, which is called the Father; the Divine Human, which is called the Son, and the Divine proceeding, which is called the Holy Spirit.The Divine Trinity is one . The Divine Trinity in the Lord is acknowledged in heaven. The Lord is one with the Father, He is the Divine itself, and the Divine Human. His Divine proceeding is also His Divine in heaven, which is called the Holy Spirit. The Lord is the one and only God. God doesn't need to be three persons in order to be a Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator. Harry]

 To All,
 The Divine Trinity is in the Lord. Christians were examined in the other life concerning the idea they had of one God, and it was found that they had an idea of three persons, which are three gods.

The Divine Trinity may be conceived  in one Divine Person, and as one God, but not in three Persons . God is one, in Person and in Essence.

The DivineTrinity is in one Divine Person.In the Lord, is the Divine itself, which is called the Father; the Divine Human, which is called the Son, and the Divine proceeding, which is called the Holy Spirit.The Divine Trinity is one . The Divine Trinity in the Lord is acknowledged in heaven.  

The Lord is one with the Father, He is the Divine itself, and the Divine Human. His Divine proceeding is also His Divine in heaven, which is called the Holy Spirit. The Lord is the one and only God.

God doesn't need to be three persons in order to be a Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator.
 
Harry

I believe Angelicman is United Pentecostal or  United Apostolic.  These groups deny the doctrine of the Trinity and  believe there is one person in the Godhead who took three consecutive forms or modes. First there was the Father who then became the Son who then became the Holy Spirit. I believe it is called Modal Monarchianism or something along that line.....I dont know a whole lot about them though. Anyone else know?

No. I am not a United Pentecostal or United Apostolic. I am member of the New Church. My church doctrine is base on the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg.

I don't believe the trinity as the way the Christians today believe it.

The Lord Himself is the Holy Spirit:

The Lord promise that the Disciples would receive the Holy Spirit was fulfilled in part after His resurrection when He commissioned His disciples.

"He breathed on them, and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20.22)

The same phrase could be translated, "Receive the Holy Breath." Of course, the breath of Jesus was symbolic of all His words, and of all His activity and life, of His own Spirit.

"The Holy Spirit" is the best translation here, but the point is that the disciples were not to think of the Holy Spirit as the influence of some third Person, but as the influence of Jesus Christ Himself.

When the Lord breathes His Life and Spirit into us it is He Himself who becomes present with us, not some other Person.

So if we ask the question, "Who is the Spirit?" The answer is clear: "The Lord is the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3.17)

"Who is the Comforter?" "We have a Comforter... Jesus Christ." (1 John 2.1) Like a gentle breeze or a warm breath, Jesus Christ Holy Spirit surrounds and inspires all who are open to receive Him.

The Lord is the Holy Spirit because He alone is Holy
Harry[/b]

[To All,God became Man and Man became God in one Person. That Jehovah God became Man, and Man became God in one Person, that Jehovah the Creator of the universe descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem and save men, and that the Lord by the acts of redemption united Himself to the Father, and the Father united Himself to Him, thus reciprocally and mutually. From that reciprocal union it is very evident that God became Man and Man became God in one Person; and from the union of the two as being a union like that of soul and body, the same conclusion follows. That this is in accordance with the faith of the church at this day, as derived from the Athanasian Creed, may be seen above; that it is also in accordance with the faith of the Evangelical churches may be seen in that chief of their orthodox books, called the Formula Concordi where it is firmly established, both from Sacred Scripture and from the Fathers, as also by rational arguments, that the human nature of Christ was exalted to Divine majesty, omnipotence and omnipresence, and that in Christ Man is God, and God is Man. Moreover, it has been shown in this present chapter that Jehovah God as to His Human is called in the Word "Jehovah," "Jehovah God," "Jehovah of Hosts," and "the God of Israel." Therefore Paul says: That in Jesus Christ dwelleth all the fullness of Divinity bodily (Col. 2:9). And John: That Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20). That "the Son of God" means strictly His Human may be seen above. Furthermore, Jehovah God calls both Himself and Him Lord; for we read: The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand (Ps. 110:1). And in Isaiah: For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; whose name is God, the Father of Eternity (9:6). The Lord as to His Human is also meant by "the Son" in David: I will declare the decree, Jehovah said unto me, Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way (Ps. 2:7, 12). Here no Son from eternity is meant, but the Son born in the world; for this is a prophecy about the Lord who was to come.Consequently it is called a "decree" which Jehovah declared to David; and in the same Psalm it is said previously: I have anointed my King upon Zion (verse 6); and further on: I will give to Him the nations for an inheritance (verse . Therefore "this day" does not mean from eternity, but in time; for with Jehovah the future is present. Harry]

To All,
God became Man and Man became God in one Person. That Jehovah God became Man, and Man became God in one Person, that Jehovah the Creator of the universe descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem and save men, and that the Lord by the acts of redemption united Himself to the Father, and the Father united Himself to Him, thus reciprocally and mutually.

From that reciprocal union it is very evident that God became Man and Man became God in one Person; and from the union of the two as being a union like that of soul and body, the same conclusion follows.

That this is in accordance with the faith of the church at this day, as derived from the Athanasian Creed, may be seen above; that it is also in accordance with the faith of the Evangelical churches may be seen in that chief of their orthodox books, called the Formula Concordi where it is firmly established, both from Sacred Scripture and from the Fathers, as also by rational arguments, that the human nature of Christ was exalted to Divine majesty, omnipotence and omnipresence, and that in Christ Man is God, and God is Man.

 Moreover, it has been shown in this present chapter that Jehovah God as to His Human is called in the Word "Jehovah," "Jehovah God," "Jehovah of Hosts," and "the God of Israel." Therefore Paul says:
 That in Jesus Christ dwelleth all the fullness of Divinity bodily (Col. 2:9).
 
And John:
That Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20).

That "the Son of God" means strictly His Human may be seen above. Furthermore, Jehovah God calls both Himself and Him Lord; for we read:
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand (Ps. 110:1).

And in Isaiah:
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; whose name is God, the Father of Eternity (9:6).

The Lord as to His Human is also meant by "the Son" in David:
I will declare the decree, Jehovah said unto me, Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way (Ps. 2:7, 12).

Here no Son from eternity is meant, but the Son born in the world; for this is a prophecy about the Lord who was to come.

Consequently it is called a "decree" which Jehovah declared to David; and in the same Psalm it is said previously:
I have anointed my King upon Zion (verse 6);
and further on:
I will give to Him the nations for an inheritance (verse .

Therefore "this day" does not mean from eternity, but in time; for with Jehovah the future is present.
 
Harry

[The doctrine of three Divine persons, both in past and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Esse. The unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man,and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking. For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception.This is done by means of knowledges. The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one, and that a second person with the same Divine Esse is not possible.Jehovah God saided, His glory He would not share with another.I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory (Divinity)will I not give to another (Isa. 42:6, . This means Jehovah God the Father will not have another god like unto Himself,with the same Divine Esse.Harry]

The doctrine of three Divine persons, both in past and at the present day, has sprung solely from a failure to understand the Divine Esse.

 The unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man,and yet it has not descended  into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception.

This is done by means of knowledges. The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one, and that a second person with the same Divine Esse is not possible.

Jehovah God saided, His glory He would not share with another.I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory (Divinity)will I not give to another (Isa. 42:6, . This means Jehovah God the Father will not have another god like unto Himself,with the same Divine Esse.

Harry

[To All, Jehovah God the Father descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem men and save them. In the Christian churches at this day it is believed that God the Creator of the universe begat a Son from eternity, and that this Son descended and assumed a Human in order to redeem and save men.This is an error, and of itself falls to the ground as soon as it is considered that God is one, and that it is worse than incredible in the sight of reason to say that the one God begat a Son from eternity, and that God the Father, together with the Son and Holy Spirit, each one of whom singly is God, is one God.This incredible notion is wholly dissipated, like a falling star in midair, when it is shown from the Word that Jehovah God Himself descended and became Man and also Redeemer. The first statement, that it was Jehovah God Himself who descended and became Man, is made clear in the following passages: Behold, a virgin shall conceive and shall bear a Son, who shall be called God-with-us (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:22, 23). Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, God, Mighty, Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6). It shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him that He may deliver us; this is Jehovah; we have waited for Him; let us exult and be glad in His salvation (Isa. 25:9). The voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of Jehovah; make level in the wilderness a highway for our God, and all flesh shall see it together (Isa. 40:3, 5). Behold, the Lord Jehovah cometh in strength, and His arm shall rule for Him behold, His reward is with Him. He shall feed His flock like a shepherd (Isa. 40:10, 11). Jehovah said, Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come to dwell in the midst of thee. Then many nations shall cleave to Jehovah in that day (Zech. 2:10, 11). I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and I will give thee for a covenant of the people. I am Jehovah; this is My name; My glory will I not give to another (Isa. 42:6-8). Behold, the days come, that I will raise up unto David a righteous Branch and He shall reign as King, and He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth, and this is His name, Jehovah our righteousness (Jer. 23:5, 6; 33:15, 16). See also the places where the Lord's coming is called "the day of Jehovah" (as in Isa. 13:6, 9, 13, 22; Ezek. 31:15; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 2, 11; 3:1, 14, 18; Amos 5:13, 18, 20; Zeph. 1:7-18; Zech. 14:1, 4-21; and elsewhere). That it was Jehovah Himself who descended and assumed the Human is especially evident in Luke, where it is said: Mary said to the angel, How shall this come to pass, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing that is born of thee shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:34, 35). And in Matthew: The angel said to Joseph, the bridegroom of Mary, in a dream, that that which was begotten in her was of the Holy Spirit. And Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called His name Jesus (Matt. 1:20, 25). It will be shown in the third chapter of this work that the Divine that goes forth from Jehovah God is what is meant by the Holy Spirit. Who does not know that the offspring has its soul and life from the father, and that the body is from the soul? Can anything, then, be more plainly declared than that the Lord had His soul and life from Jehovah God; and as the Divine cannot be divided, that the very Divine of the Father was His soul and life? This is why the Lord so often called Jehovah God His Father, and why Jehovah God called Him His Son. Can there be anything, then, more absurd than to say that the soul of the Lord was from His mother Mary? Harry]

To All,
 Jehovah God the Father descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem men and save them.

In the Christian churches at this day it is believed that God the Creator of the universe begat a Son from eternity, and that this Son descended and assumed a Human in order to redeem and save men.

This is an error, and of itself falls to the ground as soon as it is considered that God is one, and that it is worse than incredible in the sight of reason to say that the one God begat a Son from eternity, and that God the Father, together with the Son and Holy Spirit, each one of whom singly is God, is one God.

This incredible notion is wholly dissipated, like a falling star in midair, when it is shown from the Word that Jehovah God Himself descended and became Man and also Redeemer.

The first statement, that it was Jehovah God Himself who descended and became Man, is made clear in the following passages:
 Behold, a virgin shall conceive and shall bear a Son, who shall be called God-with-us (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:22, 23).

 Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, God, Mighty, Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6).

 It shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him that He may deliver us; this is Jehovah; we have waited for Him; let us exult and be glad in His salvation (Isa. 25:9).

 The voice of one crying in the desert, Prepare ye the way of Jehovah; make level in the wilderness a highway for our God, and all flesh shall see it together (Isa. 40:3, 5).

 Behold, the Lord Jehovah cometh in strength, and His arm shall rule for Him behold, His reward is with Him. He shall feed His flock like a shepherd (Isa. 40:10, 11).
 
 Jehovah said, Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come to dwell in the midst of thee. Then many nations shall cleave to Jehovah in that day (Zech. 2:10, 11).

 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and I will give thee for a covenant of the people. I am Jehovah; this is My name; My glory will I not give to another (Isa. 42:6-8).

 Behold, the days come, that I will raise up unto David a righteous Branch and He shall reign as King, and He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth, and this is His name, Jehovah our righteousness (Jer. 23:5, 6; 33:15, 16).
See also the places where the Lord's coming is called "the day of Jehovah" (as in Isa. 13:6, 9, 13, 22; Ezek. 31:15; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 2, 11; 3:1, 14, 18; Amos 5:13, 18, 20; Zeph. 1:7-18; Zech. 14:1, 4-21; and elsewhere).

That it was Jehovah Himself who descended and assumed the Human is especially evident in Luke, where it is said:
     Mary said to the angel, How shall this come to pass, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing that is born of thee shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:34, 35).
 
And in Matthew:
 The angel said to Joseph, the bridegroom of Mary, in a dream, that that which was begotten in her was of the Holy Spirit. And Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called His name Jesus (Matt. 1:20, 25).

It will be shown in the third chapter of this work that the Divine that goes forth from Jehovah God is what is meant by the Holy Spirit.

Who does not know that the offspring has its soul and life from the father, and that the body is from the soul?

Can anything, then, be more plainly declared than that the Lord had His soul and life from Jehovah God; and as the Divine cannot be divided, that the very Divine of the Father was His soul and life?

This is why the Lord so often called Jehovah God His Father, and why Jehovah God called Him His Son. Can there be anything, then, more absurd than to say that the soul of the Lord was from His mother Mary?

Harry
 

Harry,

So are you saying, the Jesus of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament??

Because as you know, Jesus claimed to be the same "I am" of the Old Testament, and John opens his Book of Revelation with this revelation;  "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1), where He is revealed as that same God..

Jesus said;

Jhn 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

You may not understand what or whom Jesus, claimed to be, here at this passage, but the Jews who took up stones , understood perfectly well, that He stated, that He was God..

when He said;;

I and my father are one

This is the way, we understand the passage, and we agree, Jesus is the same Creator God of the Old Testament..

He still speaks today, to whosoever, will hear;

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.  (Jhn 8:24)  NWT

Thanks for sharing this truth..


Petro

The Divine Trinity is in Our Lord Jesus Christ. That's why He asked that we follow Him, to take up the cross, that He is the way, the truth and the life

The Father and He are one as Soul and Body or as Divine and Human in Jesus Christ. In Jesus Christ the Divine and Human make one God, as in John 14: 8," He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

This is what the Lord meant:
"I am come from God" (John 8:42) - the Body came forth from the Soul.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself, - but what He seeth the Father do" (John 5:19) - the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 16) - The Messiah, the Body of the Infinite itself, which alone is Life-in-itself.

"This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17) - the Divine Human in which it pleased the Lord to dwell while on earth.

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) - the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it.

"No Man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6) - Just as we cannot know a man's soul except insofar as his body reveals it.

All Christians should approach and worship the Lord only, because He the Father in the Human. Jehovah God became Man so we may approach Him as Man. It is the only way we can be able to understand God, by approaching Him as a Man.

 The Lord's prayer was meant for Him, not another person. He is the Our father in heaven.

Harry[/b]

[Here's an error The idea that a Son of God sent from eternity by the Father came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following: Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22. I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11. I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4. That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa. 49:26; 60:16. As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4. Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34. Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14. Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7. Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer; I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa. 44:24. Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6. You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16. I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5. Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8. Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5. From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man in order to effect redemption. Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those very sayings of God which have been quoted? Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that a second God was born from eternity, and that it was He who came down and redeemed us, close their eyes to those Divine sayings, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas. Harry]

                           Here's an error
 The idea that a Son of God sent from eternity by the Father came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:
 
Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.
 
I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11.
 
I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.
 
That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa. 49:26; 60:16.
 
As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4.
 
Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34.  
 
Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer; I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa. 44:24.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6.
 
You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.
 
I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5.
 
Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8.
 
Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5.
 
From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man in order to effect redemption.

Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those very sayings of God which have been quoted?

Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that a second God was born from eternity, and that it was He who came down and redeemed us, close their eyes to those Divine sayings, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas.

Harry