In post #13, Serapha quotes Martin Luther:
<< Martin Luther writes, "I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared.  Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing and cheerful mind."  >>

  I don't see what this has to do with a "Rapture."

  Seraph, in post #12:
<< #19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming
 >>


  The reason that the "Rapture" has no relation, no effect, on gentiles, Israel, evil, and judgment is that Biblically there is no such concept. Likewise, there are no signs of a coming "Rapture" because there is no such thing.

  RecognizeGodsGlory:
<< Now don't missunderstand me when I post that scripture, this I got off the internet I haven't read the Torah but I read some of the verses and it hurts to read how Jesus is in a way "spit on" just like on the cross.  >>

  RecognizeGodsGlory:
                            Do you realize that the Torah is the first five books of the Christian Bible? For that reason I can assure you that no verse in the Torah says anything bad about Jesus or about the coming Messiah.

  As to your predictions about the coming antichrist...
  I really don't know what background you are from. The Eastern Orthodox Church, and I believe the Roman Catholic as well, has traditions that the antichrist will be a Jew born in Palestine. The problem with this prediction is that I don't know of anything in scripture to back it up.  I am inclined to dismiss all notions of a Jewish antichrist born in Israel as simply part of the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox antisemitic tradition.  It seems that this notion is just one of the mistakes of the past that deserves to be forgotten.

 Post #12: Serapha:

<< #2 Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11) >>

  Serapha,
             Does it occur to you that the white horse in Revelation could be symbolic rather than literal? If so, these two accounts are not contradictory.

  Likewise, your list of 24 reasons to believe in a Rapture is almost totally devoid of any scriptural reference for the Rapture half of your paired comments. Besides the one I just quoted, you mention Philippans 4:5, "The Lord is near," as evidence. This statement is far too vague to provide evidence for the removal of Christians from a world still at war.

  If Christ were to return for the purpose of Rapture and only later come back to judge the Beast, then the coming with the white horse would not be a Second Coming, but a Third Coming!  Sorry, I don't know one theologian who ever spoke of a Third Coming.

  You also say that those left on earth after the Rapture do not have the opportunity for salvation. My understanding of Christianity is that God would never turn away anyone who wants salvation. Another point: If those "left behind" do not have the opportunity for salvation, then who are the people who refuse the Mark of the Beast and are persecuted for doing so?

AN EXAMINATION OF THE WORD-FAITH MOVEMENT
Part 4, Conclusion

by Richard J. Vincent

It's time to use our minds again. It's time to quit being so emotional,
mystical, and man-centered in our doctrine. It's time that Christians took
some in-depth journeys into the wonder of the Holy Scriptures to find out
about truth and reality. Christianity is truth, and as Art Lindsley has
rightly stated, "There is nothing that produces emotion like the truth". Do
you want a vibrant growing faith? Search the Scriptures. Do you seek truth,
real truth? The kind of truth that infiltrates every area of your life with
purpose and meaning and joy! You won't find it on a TV station. You'll find
it when you spend time alone in an attitude of worship and prayer with an
open Bible and the very God of the Universe teaching you and loving you
through His blessed Holy Spirit applying His most Holy word directly to your
life. Theology is not always entertaining but it is always enriching. It is a
lot easier to turn on that TV and turn off your mind but you'll be at a loss
because of it, and you will miss out on one of the most wonderful blessings
of life: communion with the Living Lord.

Conclusion

Stated most simply, the error of the faith movement is that they exalt man
and decrease God. They exalt man to God status and reduce God to man's
status. They are aware that what they are teaching is unorthodox and
controversial to say the least, yet they have no wish to change their tune.
They refuse to be accountable to anyone.

No man is an island unto himself. These men who are spokesmen for the
Christian faith to the public and represent the Lord Jesus to millions
through their television programs are preaching a different Jesus, a
different gospel, and a different spirit than what is revealed to us in Holy

Scripture.

The Apostle Paul has some strong words for these men and with them I close.I
pray we will take them to heart and that the Spirit that so moved Paul to
action against false teachings will move within us to produce in us a holy
zeal for truth!

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the
grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only
there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of
Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a
gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a
gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." (Gal.
1:6-9)

REFERENCES

1. Kenneth Copeland, "The Force Of Love" tape # 02-0028
2. Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9
3. Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN,
recorded 7/9/87
4. John Avanzini, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded
1/20/91
5. John Avanzini, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded
1/20/91
6. John Avanzini, "Praise the Lord" broadcast on TBN, recorded 9/15/88
7. Fred Price, "Is God Glorified Through Sickness?" tape # FP605
8. Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-thon", broadcast on TBN, recorded 1988
9. Kenneth Copeland, "Spirit, Soul, and Body", tape # 01-0601
10. Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham" tape # 01-3001
11. Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham" tape # 01-3001
12. Kenneth Copeland, "Following the Faith of Abraham" tape # 01-3001
13. Kenneth Copeland, "Voice of Victory" Vol. 15, No. 2, 2/87
14. Kenneth Copeland, "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" tape #
02-0017
15. Kenneth Hagin, "Word Of Faith" Dec. 1980, p. 14
16. Benny Hinn, "Our Position In Christ", tape # AO31190-1
17. Benny Hinn, "Praise-a-thon" broadcast on TBN, November, 1990
18. Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN,
recorded 7/9/87
19. Kenneth Copeland, "The Force Of Love" tape # 02-0028
20. Paul Crouch, "Praise The Lord" broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/7/86
21. Benny Hinn, "Our Position In Christ", tape # AO31190-1
22. Benny Hinn broadcast, recorded 10/13/90
23. Paul Crouch, "Praise-a-thon" broadcast on TBN, recorded 4/2/91

Written by Richard J. Vincent, 1109 Bitteroot Court, Indianapolis, Indiana
46234.  I can also be contacted on Prodigy KDCB44A or by phone 317-271-0864.

File Provided by:

Bible Bulletin Board
www.biblebb.com
www.gospelgems.com
Box 314
Columbus, NJ 08022

AN EXAMINATION OF THE WORD-FAITH MOVEMENT--Part 3

by Richard J. Vincent


A Time For Action

Am I just theologically splitting hairs here? If this were a matter of when
and how to baptize, or how many times a year should the Lord's Supper be
observed, or whether the rapture was post, mid, or pre-trib, then I could
rightfully be accused of that. Yet this is not a minor issue. At stake here
is the very character of our God and Savior Jesus Christ and the great
salvation that He has given us. If you have the wrong Jesus, you havethe
wrong salvation and it should be clear from the evidence presented above that
the Jesus of the Word-Faith movement is a far cry from the Jesus of the
Bible!

When Shirley MacClaine chants over and over on national TV , "I am God, I am
God!" we evangelicals go into an uproar. Yet when those who claim to be in
our own ranks say, "I am a little god", we don't even flinch, but rather
applaud them and their supposed evangelical efforts. Michael Horton has
rightly written, "It must cause our heavenly Father much grief that we would
consider unity more important than the One in whom we are united. It must
quench the Spirit to see Christians treating blasphemies, heresies, and
scandalous statements as though they were no more than odd "emphases."

The simple fact is that it is not the ones that are zealous for sound
doctrine and orthodoxy who are the divisive ones. The Word-Faith teachers are
the ones who are guilty of being divisive. They are fully aware that what
they are teaching is relatively new. They constantly ask us to put away our
traditions and forget our creeds. Benny Hinn says to an audience, "Are you
ready for some real revelation knowledge?" then proceeds to inform them "you
are god".(21) Hinn also, after teaching his audience that God consists of
nine distinct substances, boasts "You think you're in this church to hear
things you've heard for the last 50 years?".(22)

The Word-Faith teachers expect everyone to accept their authority and
teachings without criticism or testing. Whenever anyone challenges teir
teachings they promote division instead of discussion. Before his death, Dr.
Walter Martin sought to dialogue with Kenneth Copeland over his teachings,
yet Copeland refused to meet with Martin. Fred Price has publicly stated that
he will not meet with a critic unless he has as many followers as him. Last
Spring, the Christian Research Institute, a very reputable and trustworthy
counter-cult and apologetic ministry, devoted a week of radio programs to
exposing the errors of the Word-Faith movement. Immediately after the shows
were aired, Paul Crouch had this to say about CRI during his televised
"Praise-a-thon" program amid shouts of "amen" and "you tell 'em brother" from
the studio audience:

"I think God's given up on a lot of that old rotten Sanhedrin religious
crowd, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. I think they're damned and on
their way to hell and I don't think there's any redemption for them...the
heresy hunters that want to find a little mote of illegal doctrine in some
Christian's eye and pluck that little mote out of their eye when they've got
the whole forest in their own lives and in their own eyes. I say to hell with
you! Oh hallelujah. Get out of God's way, quit blocking God's bridges or
God's gonna shoot you if I don't! I refuse to argue any longer with any of
you out there. Don't even call me. If you want to argue doctrine, if you want
to straighten out somebody over here, if you want to criticize Ken Copeland
for his preaching on faith, or Dad Hagin. Get out of my life! I don't even
want to talk to you or hear you. I don't want to see your ugly face! Get out
of my face in Jesus' name."(23)

Notice that there is no desire to dialogue about the issues. Notice that
Paul Crouch doesn't explain why they believe what they believe and subsequently
why CRI was in error for presenting the programs. All that Paul does is
attack the people, he does not give an account for the hope that is in him.
The Faith teachers erroneous and blasphemous teachings are what are promoting
division. It is not those who criticize them and seek to dialogue with them
in a reasonable matter that are to blame. It is the childish and unresponsive
Word-Faith teachers that are to blame.

But you say, what about the good they do? Dear friend, no one gets everything
wrong! Even the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, the New Age, etc. get a few
things right every once in while. But isn't that the substance of deception?
The skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. An appearance of righteousness yet
inside rottenness and dead man's bones. No, the evil propagated by these
teachers so outweighs the good that we must reject them entirely. A little
leaven leavens the whole lump.

I, for one, am embarrassed by the Word-Faith teachers and I am ashamed to be
represented by them. These men represent Christianity to millions. They
present a false picture of what it means to be a Christian and I think it is
abhorrent. Michael Horton has rightly asked, "Do those who occasionally view
televangelistic programming know that evangelical Christianity offers an
intelligent interpretation of and hope for human existence? Does the average
unbeliever come away from an ordinary telecast with a better grasp of the
substance of the Christian faith?" The Word-Faith teachers and Trinity
Broadcasting Network on the whole defeat their very purpose. They seek to
evangelize but they are only preaching to the choir. The vast majority of
people who watch already claim to be Christian, and the occasional
non-believer that tunes in is quick to see the unreality presented and the
apparent con-game that is going on. And to make matters worse, the sparse
amount of teaching that is usually presented to the Christian is of the
lethal type that we have been discussing and instead of strengthening the
body of Christ, it poisons it.

What should we do? I see at least three things that can be done and they are
not minor operations. When a cancer is first recognized in a body, the
procedure to remove it is quick, easy, and relatively painless if the cancer
has been caught in its early stages. But when a cancer has gone unnoticed for
years and has been allowed to nurture and infiltrate an entire body, then the
procedure to remove it will be much more complicated, slow, and painful. The
Word-Faith teaching is a spiritual cancer that has infiltrated the church to
its very marrow. We must take action now and it will not be pleasant.

First, the most obvious thing to do is to not support any of these ministries
monetarily. Don't watch any of the Word-Faith teachers programs and encourage
and warn others to do the same. Don't buy their books. If your local
Christian bookstore carries their material let them know that you will not
frequent their stores if they continue to carry this spiritual cancer.

Second, take a stand for Jesus! Why won't the church take a stand? I have
asked myself that question over and over. Are we afraid to attack evil in the
supposed name of unity? Is it that we are so far gone that we don't figure
that it matters what you believe as long as you "love Jesus"? If so, let's
quit calling other religions false and accept the cults into our fold. Let's
bring in the Jehovah's Witnesses who love their Jesus (even though to them he
is the archangel Michael, the first and greatest created being). Let's bring
in the Mormons, and the Unitarians, etc. Let's say good-bye to the creeds and
sound doctrine. Let's forget the stern warnings of the Apostle Paul to beware
of false teachers and false doctrine which spreads like gangrene. Let's all
just "love Jesus" (whoever that Jesus might be to us)? NO! We cannot forget
the creeds, we will not abandon truth. We must obey our Lord when He tells us
to "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but
inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Mat.
7:15-16). The fruit of the Word-Faith teachers is none other than the fruit
that the devil deceived our ancient mother Eve with. It is still as deadly
and still as putrid in God's sight as it was then. The Word-Faith teachers
and their movement must be actively opposed and rejected as non-Christian!
Who will stand for Christ?

Third, this would not have come about if more Christians knew their Bible and
what it taught. This would not have come about if more Christians knew what
the Bible has to say about the nature of man, the nature of God, the
doctrine of the trinity, etc. It is time to return to teaching sound doctrine so that
the common Christian man can be armed against error. It is time to study the
great foundational doctrines of our faith so that we won't be deceived by
religious charlatans. Doctrine is not just for theologians. Words like
propitiation, sanctification, justification, trinity, incarnation,
predestination, redemption, etc. are not just useless theological words but
are the very foundations of the faith.

AN EXAMINATION OF THE WORD-FAITH MOVEMENT--Part 2

by Richard J. Vincent

The Error Examined

You must follow the steps of this error very carefully for it is but the
doorway into the single most blasphemous and heretical teaching of the
Word-Faith teachers.

1) On the cross Jesus took upon Himself the nature of Satan. The Bible says
that Jesus is God the Son, God manifest in the flesh. Jesus therefore
possesses the attributes of deity such as omnipotence, omniscience,
eternalness, immutability, etc. Though in His incarnation, He chose not to
exercise all of His attributes, He still retained them. One of God's
attributes which Jesus shares is His immutability. This means that God is
unchangeable in His person. Although He acts in time, and establishes and
changes relationships in time, His essence, which includes His perfect and
holy attributes, never changes. God does not change (Mal. 3:6) and neither
does Jesus. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Heb
13:. But the faith-teachers begin their error by claiming that the Holy,
undefiled, unchangeable Son of God became evil to the core taking upon
Himself the nature of Satan. Blasphemy! Our holy God does not become unholy.

2) Jesus died spiritually. Again the unchanging God-man did not die
spiritually, but physically. 1 Pet. 3:18 states that Jesus was put to death
in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit. Jesus did not need to die
spiritually as well as physically to gain our salvation. The offering of His
body was enough. Colossians 1:13 states "He has now reconciled you in His
fleshly body through death"; Hebrews 13:12, "therefore Jesus also, that He
might sanctify the people through His own blood"; Hebrews 10:10, "We have
been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ". Was Jesus
lying when He cried upon the cross, "It is finished" (John 19:30)? Was there
yet more to be done to secure our salvation? That comforting cry from the
lips of our blessed Lord can be nothing but true and our salvation was
completely bought and paid for at this most climactic moment of all of
history!

3) Jesus descended into hell a mortal man. Seeing that there is no need for
Christ to have done any more to procure our salvation then what had already
been accomplished, this point becomes nothing more than an embellishment to
the truth. Jesus Christ did not suffer in hell. He descended to Hades, to the
abode of the dead. There was no need for Him to do anymore for our salvation.
Satan had already been defeated and conquered (Col 2:14-15). Also, Jesus was
not, nor ever will be, a mere mortal human being. To be a mere mortal, He
would have to stop being God, and that is one thing that is against God's
nature and attributes.

4) Jesus was born again. Jesus had no need to be born again. Jesus was not a
lost and hell-bound sinner who needed regeneration. He was the Almighty,
Eternal, and Holy Son of God. The faith teachers will drag Jesus to the
lowest depths in order that their teaching will have at least a hint of
logic. This idea that Jesus was born again is the crucial link for the faith
teachers that enables them to cry out at the end of their wicked formula for
salvation, "I am a little god". Observe.

5) Jesus defeated the devil by being born again. We now have Jesus, a mere
mortal man, suffering in hell. Jesus then decides to be born again. He
defeats the devil and becomes the first-born among many brethren. Now here is
where the Scripture twisting really becomes ludicrous. Copeland states that
nowhere in the Bible after the book of Acts is Jesus called the unique and
only begotten Son of God. He then twists Romans 8:29 to mean that Jesus is
the first born again man. This first reborn man, Jesus, has set the pattern
for a new race to come. And according to the Faith Teachers, we are that new
race to come. We are equal to Jesus for we are born again just as He was. Do
you see what has happened here? The faith teachers have so suppressed the
deity of Jesus that they have, in essence, denied it. Copeland goes the
farthest in this revelation He supposedly received from Jesus, "Don't be
disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you're God. The more you get to
be like Me, the more they're going to think that way of you. They crucified
Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed
I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah. That's what you're
doing."(13)

The Jesus of the faith teachers has so little in common with the Jesus of the
Bible that it is clear to anyone with a grain of discernment that the Jesus
of the faith teachers is not the Jesus of the Bible but instead is the kind
of religious decoy that Paul warned us to be on the lookout for. "But I am
afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your mindsshould
be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if
one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you
receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel
which you have not accepted, you put up with it easily enough" (2 Cor.
11:3-4). And we are putting up with it. We are taking this so calmly. Another
Jesus, another gospel, another spirit is mocking the true Jesus, the true
gospel, and the true Spirit and we are so tolerant of it that we allow it on
our TV set and call it Christian!?

The Fruit Of The Error

Why is it so important for the Faith-Teachers to ignore such explicit
passages as "It is finished," etc? Why must they have Jesus dying spiritually
as well as physically, entering hell as a mortal man capable of failure, and
being born again to defeat the devil? The reason is that the faith teachers
have a diminished view of Jesus. When Jesus is downplayed as nothing more
than an anointed man, it brings the faith teachers up to the level of Jesus.
In fact, both Kenneth Copeland and Fred Price have publicly stated that ifit
was just the physical death of Jesus on the cross that saves us then anyone
could have done it. Kenneth Copeland says, "And the whole New Testament calls
Him the first-born....The word "born" began to ring in my spirit; it just
began to roll around: born, born. I never had let Him go through that n my
own thinking....And while I was laying there thinking about these things, the
Spirit of God spoke to me. And He said, "Son, realize this: Now follow Me in
this, don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: A
twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible down. I
said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan. The first-born of
many brethren defeated him." He said, "You are the very image and the very
copy of that one." I said, "Goodness gracious, sakes alive!" And I began to
see what had gone on in there, and I said, "You don't mean--you couldn't dare
mean, that I could have done the same thing?" He said, "Oh, yeah, if you'd
had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the
same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man, too.""(14) No mention is made of the
sinlessness of Christ. No reverence is shown toward the unique virgin birth
of Christ. See the depths to which the Word-Faith teachers have desecrated
our Lord. Jesus Christ could pay for our sins because He was sinless, being
uniquely born of a virgin, and thus not sharing in the sin nature of Adam and
his descendants, a fact to which neither Copeland nor anyone can likewise
boast of.

The sickening outcome of this wickedness is that the Gospel message is no
more "Turn to the cross of Jesus, ye wretched sinners, and plead for God's
forgiveness. Find rest for your sin and guilt beneath the blessed cross of
the great and mighty Savior." Instead the faith Teacher's gospel message is,
"You shall be like God"! The original lie of the devil is now the gospel
message and is broadcast around the world for all to hear! He must be
pleased! And the end result is the blasphemous cries of those who subscribe
to this wickedness. Kenneth Hagin: "You are as much the incarnation of God as
Jesus Christ was...the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of
Nazareth".(15) Benny Hinn: "Are you ready for some real revelation
knowledge....you are god"(16) "You are a little god on earth running
around".(17) Kenneth Copeland: "I say this with all respect so that it don't
upset you too bad, but I say it anyway, when I read in the Bible where he
[Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'"(18) "You don't
have a god in you, you are one."(19) Paul Crouch: "Do you know what else
that's settled then tonight? This hue and cry and controversy that has been
spawned by the devil to try to bring dissension within the body of Christ
that we are gods. I am a little god. I have His name. I am one with Him. I'm
in covenant relation. I am a little god. Critics be gone!"(20)

AN EXAMINATION OF THE WORD-FAITH MOVEMENT-Part 1

by Richard J. Vincent

"You don't have a god in you, you are one."(1)

"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in Myself. We are one
Spirit, saith the Lord."(2)

"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it
anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile
and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'"(3)

What group would say such outrageous things? What group would have the nerve
to perpetuate such blasphemous doctrines? Could it be the Jehovah's
Witnesses? the Mormons? the Unitarians? the New Agers? Could it be-the
Christians?

The Word-Faith Teachers

The Word-Faith Teachers. This is the group that would seek to convince us
that Jesus and His disciples were rich, that to be poor is a sin, to be sick
is a sin, and that faith is a creative force that we can use to shape our
world just like God supposedly created this world and universe that we live
in through His "faith"!

Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, John Avanzini, Robert Tilton,
Fred Price, and Benny Hinn (who at the time of this writing has authored the
number one best selling Christian book in America, "Good Morning, Holy
Spirit") are just a few that spew out this theological vomit.

A Sampling of Error

To name just a few of the more outrageous things that have been said by these
so-called teachers will stagger the senses:
John Avanzini is convinced that "Jesus had a nice big house",(4) "Jesus wore
designer clothes",(5) and "Jesus was handling big money".(6)
Fred Price also claims that Jesus was rich and that He left us with an
example to follow. That is why Fred drives a Rolls Royce; he is following
Jesus' example!

Mr. Price also communicates one of the more sickening beliefs of the
Word-Faith teachers which shocks even those with a mild amount of common
sense. He says, "How can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't
function right?....What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside
of a body where He can't see out through the windows, and He can't hear out
the ears?"(7) This insulting and insensitive comment regarding the
handicapped and crippled among us stirs up anger in even the most hardened of
consciences. Yet this statement by Mr. Price is followed by exuberant
applause and approval from his congregation (I would like to hear Mr. Price
say this to Joni Eareckson, or Tony Melendez).
These kind of statements boggle our minds and stagger our senses. It would
seem that most people would see the error in these teachings, yet millions
follow these men with a militant passion.

The Tip of the Iceberg

If this was as far as the teaching of these men went, if their only error was
that they think everyone should be wealthy and healthy, then we could maybe
shrug this movement off as a novelty and realize that soon people with an
ounce of common sense will see the error in these teachings. Unfortunately,
these teachings are but the tip of the iceberg. They are but the rotten fruit
of a foul, putrid, blasphemous and heretical root. The erroneous actions of
the faith teachers is but the symptom of their twisted and diseased teachings
concerning the nature of man and the nature of God. I think you will see,
after examining what they believe in these two key areas, that we are not
dealing with a Christian sect gone awry, but that we are dealing with a
non-Christian heretical group that is as deadly in their doctrine as any
major cult.

The Error Begins

Who is God to the faith teachers? Kenneth Copeland will tell you first off
that "God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never
thought that is because He never said He was one".(

Copeland also teaches us that "God is a being that stands somewhere around
6'2", 6'3",(9) intimating that God has a body, an error subscribed to by the
Mormons. Copeland states, without any biblical warrant, that the earth we
live on is a "copy of the mother planet"(10) which God lives on, again
imitating a Mormon doctrine. Never mind that the Bible plainly states that
God is spirit (John 4:24), never mind that the Bible never says a thing about
this earth being a copy of any so-called mother planet. Yet these arguments
don't work with the faith teachers because they have supposedly received
these teachings by direct revelation from God. Therefore to oppose them is to
oppose God. These men have lifted themselves above any critical investigation
yet they have forgotten the biblical mandate that anything not in accord with
the Word of God must be rejected. We will examine shortly their reactions to
any kind of criticism.

After the faith teachers have thoroughly belittled God to slightly more than
an exalted man, they then proceed to exalt man to the status of God. Adam, to
the faith teachers, was an exact duplicate of God. Copeland teaches, "Gods
reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a
reproduction of Himself. He [Adam] was not a little like God, he was not
almost like God, He was not subordinate to God even".(11) Copeland even
states that "Adam is God manifested in the flesh",(12) a title that can only
be truly applied to Christ Jesus alone.

The perceptive man can easily see that the problem here is a confusion about
what it means to be made in the image of God. The faith teachers claim that
being made in the image of God is synonymous to having the nature of God. To
be made in the image of God is to be a "little god" they would admit. Yet is
that what the church has commonly taught. The overwhelming consensus of the
church has been that man is created in the image of God in the sense that he
is a person as God is a person, possessing mind, will, and emotions, that he
is reasonable, unique among creation, a ruler over creation, and capable of
personal fellowship with God. We bear the image of God, but we do not share
His nature or substance or make-up. We are not omnipresent, omniscient,
omnipotent, or infinite. God is the only being that is holy in and of Himself
(Rev. 15:4). We are made in His image and have dignity because of that, but
we are not an exact duplicate of God in any sense of the word. That status is
reserved for the Lord Jesus Christ alone (see Col 2:8, Heb. 1:3, 2 Cor.
4:4).

The Error Grows

Beginning with this foul root of error, the faith teachers proceed into more
putrefying departures from the Christian faith. The faith teachers claim that
when Adam fell in the garden he forfeited the nature of God and took on the
nature of Satan. This error is but a link in the chain that connects the
faith teachers exalting of man and belittling of God. You see, salvation for
the faith teachers is not the removal of sin through the shed blood of the
Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation for the faith teachers is not the forgiveness of
sins and the restoring of a right relationship between God and man.
Salvation for the faith teachers is instead the removal of the nature of Satan from man
and the restoring of the nature of God in man.
How is the restoring of the nature of God in man to come about? The answer
that the faith teachers give is that Jesus had to take on the nature of Satan
on the cross. In fact, the whole sacrifice of Christ on the cross takes on a
completely different emphasis and meaning for the faith teachers.

You see, it is not enough that Christ died physically in the theology of the
Word-Faith teachers. In order to take away our Satanic nature and restore our
God nature, Jesus Christ had to die spiritually as well as physically. He
then had to descend to hell. Then while in hell he was born again and
through. His act of being born again He conquered the devil.

  Since the subject of Benny Hinn and the televangelists has come up, I'm going to post an article on the Word-Faith movement. This movement includes many, not all, but many televangelists.
  One part that deals specifically with Benny Hinn:

Benny Hinn: "Are you ready for some real revelation
knowledge....you are god."( 16) "You are a little god on earth running around".(17)

16. Benny Hinn, "Our Position In Christ", tape # AO31190-1
17. Benny Hinn, "Praise-a-thon" broadcast on TBN, November, 1990

  2nd Timothy:
  I hope my post above isn't too harsh.

 2nd Timothy: << I do not believe the church will be here during Gods wrath. >>

  Let me expand on the brief mention of martyrs in heaven in my first post.

  "When he [the Lamb] opened the fifth seal,, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'
  Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Revelation 6: 9-11 NIV

  This passage certainly makes it sound like many of these martyrs in heaven are recently arrived, and that they died at the hands of persons who are still alive and as yet unjudged. It gives the impression that these martyrs died at the hands of the Beast.

 2nd Timothy:
<< Hello Dale, Welcome to CU! >> Thanks.

<< Here I will just say that basing any doctrine on poplarity or lack thereof is bad medicene.  In reality, Pre-trib docrtine probably falls short of popular belief of a post trib view today.  Having said that, its always better to look and see what the Bible has to say rather than what is popular or not. >>
 I am pointing out that these beliefs are being spread by novels and movies that are extremely inaccurate.

<< The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'"    >>

  Clement is talking about the Second Coming, not a Rapture where Christians are removed from a world where political events are still taking place.

<< As early as 70 - 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, "'Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."  >>

  Same here, this is Second Coming, not Rapture. Likewise, at a Church of the Nazarene I heard a whole sermon preached on being ready for Christ's return. The pastor didn't say a word about a Rapture, which means that he doesn't believe in one.

<< "But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!" (Tertullian 155 - 245 AD).>>
  Again, this is Second Coming, not Rapture. The same goes for your quotes from John Calvin and the Westminster Confession.

  Your quote from Morgan Edwards does not use the word Rapture and seems to have a dual Second Coming.

<< 1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  >>
  These verses don't say anything about Christians being taken out of a world where evil still rules and wars are still taking place. They tell us of Second Coming, not Rapture.

<< In Revelation 11:11 we see where the two wittnesses are ressurected after 3 days and being told to "come up hither".     >>
  I've never seen this connected to a Rapture. I've always understood it as a unique event.

<<   <Conservative Christians seem to believe that the New Age is a single movement.  It is not, it is a bewildering jumble of movements.>
   
   Short of comment on the movie I have not seen, to the rest I say Amen! >>
  You apparently know what I'm talking about here.

  Since the whole subject of Rapture has worked its way into pop culture I will start from that angle.
   The movie Tribulation gives a very misleading impression of what Christians believe about the end times.  It is based on the book Tribulation, part of the Left Behind series.
  The movie says that all Christians believe in a rapture, the sudden inexplicable disappearance of all Christians from the earth at some future time.  On the contrary, the Catholic Church teaches no such thing and neither does the Eastern Orthodox.  I grew up in a Baptist Church and I never heard of the rapture until Hal Lindsay popularized the idea.  Lindsay, in turn, never discussed the truth or falsity of a rapture, he simply assumed it to be true.
  The idea has a curious history.  For centuries people studied the Bible and a rapture never crossed anyone’s mind until the Adventists came up with it in the 1840’s.  It was part of their effort to explain why the world did not end when they said it would.
  There are two Bible verses that believers in a rapture cite as proof.  Both obviously refer only to death.  Neither says anything about all Christians disappearing at once, or anything happening to all Christians at once.  Again, the movie Tribulation commits the amazing blunder of saying that the Book of Revelation warns us about a rapture.  I have never spoken to anyone who pointed to Revelation for evidence of a rapture.  Revelation 6:9 tells us that the souls of the martyrs are in heaven, but Revelation tells us nothing about a sudden disappearance.
  Tribulation may be a successful horror movie but it conveys an enormously oversimplified picture of the world and of the spiritual problem.  Conservative Christians seem to believe that the New Age is a single movement.  It is not, it is a bewildering jumble of movements.

   Some have told me to read 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17, a scripture I am familiar with.
  The passage tells of the Second Coming of Christ together with resurrection and presumably judgment.  It does not tell of Christians being raptured, or removed, from a world where political events are still taking place.  In the Left Behind series Christians are raptured out of the world before the Antichrist arises.  In Revelation the Antichrist is thrown into hell in Rev 19:20, while the resurrection does not occur until Rev. 20: 11-12, some time later.
  If resurrection is the same as rapture then the Left Behind series changes the order of events in the Bible.  If the notion of rapture has nothing to do with Biblical resurrection then the last fragment of support for a rapture vanishes.
  Belief in a rapture certainly looks like wishful thinking.   There is another downside.  With many conservative Christians expecting a rapture, there could be a falling away when it does not happen.

  Ebia says in Post # 29:
<< This might be true, to a limited extent, of the slavery talked about in the OT, but its certainly not true of the slavery of the roman empire condoned by St Paul. >>

  Paul wrote the book of Philemon to a slave owner on behalf of an escaped slave, Onesimus.
  "Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little whiile was that you might have him back for good--no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother."
Philemon verses 15-6 NIV

  This certainly doesn't sound like Paul is condoning slavery. He is asking Philemon, a Christian, to free Onesimus. It looks to me like the only reason that Paul doesn't condemn slavery in the strongest terms is that he is trying to be diplomatic on behalf of Onesimus.
  From the notes in my Disciples' Study Bible: "The writers of the New Testament did not attack the essential elements of slavery, but what they said revolutionized the thinking of Christians on the subject. Paul had warned slaveowners that they had  a responsibility toward their slaves (Col 4:1)."
  "When an owner can refer to a slave as a brother, the slave had reached a position in which the legal title of slave is meaningless."

  Alice, from Post #7:
<< Also, Jon told me that there is proof that the world is older than the bible says. >>

  Alice, the Bible doesn't say how old the earth is. I've always been told that Bishop Ussher came up with the 6,000 year figure used by some, but not all, creationists today. He did this by adding up all the time intervals mentioned in the Bible. Nothing in the Bible suggests that time intervals mentioned in the Bible were ever meant to be taken this way.
  Hang in there, Alice.

                      --Dale

  Some advocate exclusive use of the King James Bible.  I see King James Bibles being used as pew Bibles in some churches.  Yet the King James translation is actually quite dated and prone to misunderstanding.
  For instance, in 2 Samuel, King David’s army conquers the cities of the Ammonites.  “And he [David] brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick kiln...”  2 Samuel 12:31 KJV
  I read an irreligious author who had seen this passage, King James version, and formed a clear picture of what happened.  David had cities full of people either sawed in half, chopped up in pieces with axes, or burned alive.
  A parallel passage in Chronicles, if anything, makes the conquest of the Ammonites sound even worse.  “And he brought out the people that were in it [city of the Ammonites], and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes.” 1 Chronicles 20:3 KJV
  Did this massacre happen?  It did not.  As the Revised Standard version, and I believe, all later translations, make clear, it was all a confusion of language.  King David laid a tribute on the Ammonites, of timber and brick to be sent to Jerusalem.  “And he brought forth the people that were in it, and set them to labor with saws and iron picks and iron axes, and made them toil at the brickkilns; and thus he did to all the cities of the Ammonites.” 2 Samuel 12:31 RSV
  “And he brought forth the people who were in it, and set them to labor with saws and iron picks and axes...” 1 Chronicles 20:3 RSV
  When modern Christians continue to use the King James Bible, it seems to me that we are putting our worst foot forward.  We have better translations, lacking nothing in scholarship.
<>