Dawn in post #27:
<< The pyramid with the all-seeing eye is indeed a Masonic symbol (symbol used by the Grand Master of the Lodge) and can be clearly traced back to pagan ancient Egypt. >>

  Give me one reason to believe that this has anything to do with the U.S. Great Seal. Who do you believe is responsible for this Masonic influence? Can you name one believable historian who believes that the Great Seal is a Masonic artifact?

  I assume that you know that the library at the University of Virginia, designed by Thomas Jefferson, is a smaller version of Rome's Pantheon. What significance do you see in that?

  JudgeNot:
               My mother was a Methodist. Although my membership is elsewhere, I have attended Methodist churches for considerable periods of time. The minister I am speaking of here is one I have had lunch with on a number of occasions.
  There are many signs of life in the church that this man heads. For instance, there is a class that meets after the service and discusses the sermon. I've been in that class on a number of occasions.
  Nevertheless, I have heard Methodist ministers say some alarming and startling things on a number of occasions, both in their sermons, in classes, and in private. It is my impression that the great majority of Methodist ministers today do support the homosexual movement. If you don't believe that, ask one.
  In short, JudgeNot, I don't mean to be judgmental, I'm just passing on what I know, what I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.

[Greek]

 Dawn in post #10:
<< I might remind you that the Pantheon was built as a temple (rebuilt by Hadrian in the 2d century) to the pagan god's of Rome  >>

  The Parthenon was built to Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom.
  The Parthenon was blown up by the Turks when they occupied Greece. Does that make the Moslems our allies?
   You may know that there is a replica of the Parthenon in Nashville, Tennessee, the home of country music.

  Dawn in post #7:
<< Finally take a look at the map of Canberra at the end of chapter 10 - where the major roads form the Masonic pyramid as depicted on the US Great Seal (reverse side).  >>

  It took me awhile to unjumble things from opposite sides of the world here...
  I assume you're talking about the same Masonic pyramid that people who believe in the Illuminati believe is on the U.S. dollar bill. It is actually the reverse side of the U.S. Great Seal.
   In reply: The pyramid is a symbol of strength and permanence and the eye is the Eye of Providence. The pyramid does not represent the pyramids of Egypt. On the contrary, it has thirteen layers because it represents the strength and permanence of the original thirteen states.
  In short, the claim that the eye on the pyramid of the U.S. Great Seal is the Masonic All Seeing Eye is a false claim.
  It seems that everything you are saying is based on the assumption that Freemasonry is evil, something that you have not demonstrated to be true.

  They ought to care, Symphony.
  Only recently, a Methodist minister, the senior pastor of a large church, gave Kinsey as the reason that he supports the homosexual movement.
  Many trace the origins of today's loosening of values, trashing of marriage, to Kinsey's books, the first of them published in 1948, as I remember.

*
Symphony:
<< The Nazis started out originally as "brown shirts", years before--no weapons.  Just uniforms, social clubs, indoctrination, camps, outings--even good works. >>

*

   I share your concern about the homosexual movement, but I have to say that the Nazis had guns early on.
    In the online World Book: “By October 1923, the [SA] storm troopers numbered 15,000 members.  They had a considerable number of machine guns and rifles.” (see Hitler)  This is ten years before Hitler became Chancellor.  The Storm Troopers “terrorized opponents.” (see Nazism)
*

  Those who advocate homosexuality often mention the research of Alfred Kinsey (1894-1956). Kinsey interviewed thousands of people about their sex lives, although the subjects were not scientifically selected. Kinsey did create a sensation by claiming that homosexuality and bestiality were widespread.
*
  Large numbers of people seem to have drawn the erroneous conclusion that a widespread activity must be okay, morally neutral. Yet one of the most basic priniciples of logic is that there is no connection between the number of people who believe something and its truth. Likewise, there can be no connection between the number of people who have performed an act and whether it is moral or desirable.
*
  What kind of man was Kinsey? He encouraged his wife to have sex with his colleagues and gave similar advice to his colleagues’ wives. We are told that Kinsey was bisexual, falling in love with at least two men, and a masochist. He was sympathetic to sex criminals, defending incest and pedophiles. Biographer James H. Jones brings out these facts in a book reviewed by Alan Wolfe in New Republic, November 24, 1997.
*
  In addition, we are told that Kinsey was “frustrated and angry” and “consumed by demons.”
*
  Kinsey’s research is scientifically worthless because of poor sampling methods, shoddy statistics. “Kinsey’s approach to sex was as scientific as Peyton Place,” Wolfe tells us. Scientifically, Kinsey’s main claim to fame was being funded by the Rockefeller Foundation. Perhaps this explains why Kinsey received criticism, not support, from scientific figures as liberal as Margaret Mead.
*
  Some would say that Kinsey’s research is supplemented by later research by Masters and Johnson. At one time Masters and Johnson operated a chain of gotcha147 clinics. What happened to them? Local authorities shut them down when they found that their methods of treating sexual problems can hardly be distinguished from prostitution.

  Post #43: Tibby:
<< Really? Every Christian till about 150 years ago believed as Dale. Guess what, Crusader... Left Behind isn't Scripture  When you get right down to it, Left Behind isn't Scriptural! >>

  Thanks, Tibby! God bless!

  Recently I watched a TV movie dramatizing the beliefs of conservative Christians about the end times. The title is Image of the Beast and fortunately it isn't based on the Left Behind series.
  Image of the Beast does come to some far-fetched conclusions. For instance, the 200 million man army mentioned in Revelation is interpeted as cavalry--200 million horsemen riding into modern war! This is both unscriptural and ridiculous. In a modern war cavlry would be mowed down by machine guns with shocking speed.
  Image of the Beast also assumes that the plagues of Revelation continue the plagues of Exodus. Never heard that before. This leads to the conclusion that the fire-breathing horses are mythical-looking supernatural creatures, apparently angels in disguise. They are pictured as having the heads of eagles, bodies of lions, wings of bumblebees, gold crowns(?), and tails of scorpions.
  The passage this supposedly comes form is Revelation 9:1-11. Revelation first describes the palgue as locusts from hell, then goes on to picture them as horses with "iron breastplates" and chariots.
  What does this sound like in the modern world? Fire-breathing horses sounds like an invasion of tanks. This leaves two strong possibilities:
(1) The angel used the image of fire-breathing horses to put across an impression of modern warfare to a 1st century person.
(2) John saw the tanks but used the image to explain it to people of his time.
  Why the image of locusts? Locusts are known as devouring pests. Locusts which become horses a second later may suggest that the war is about food. When famine strikes the world, a powerful country (or coalition) sends an army of tanks to seize the food supply of weaker countries. This could well seem like an invasion from hell to those on the receiving end.
  Doesn't it make more sense to interpret Revelation in the light of things known to exist, instead of mythical creatures?
  Image of the Beast starts off with a Rapture scenario. It presents an interpretation of Revelation that is excessively literal, arbitrary and downright nonsensical. I'm afraid that the main effect of movies like this is to make Christians look silly.

  2nd Timothy:
  On the Many Mansions passage:
<< You are correct.  Verse 2 is partly a description of heaven given by the Lord.  You have only addressed a small part of verse 2 however.  We must also understand the second part of verse 2, and verse 3.  How do you interpret these?
 >>

  The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.

  As I said in my previous post:
<<  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
  For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV >>

  How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?

  Grace and peace to all Christians as they grapple with this issue!

  2nd Timothy :
<< Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

He continues listed the number 12,000 for each individual tribe, 12 in all.

Reading this passage litterally, this is clearly speaking of Israel, an exact number from each tribe that will accept Christ as messiah during the tribulation.>>

  Timothy:
             Are you aware that there are only two surviving Tribes of Israel today, namely Judah and Benjamin?  The other ten were destroyed or lost their Jewish identity.
  If God is literally going to gather 12, 000 from tweve Tribes, then these Tribes are not what you think they are.

  TrueWordBeliever, Jason:
<< If you want to be protected during the tribulation. The answer is the 'seal of God' Rev 9:4 >>

  Good point and good post. Welcome!

  Paul2, in Post #16:
<<     Why isn't  the word "Church" used in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 19? Because its in heaven during that time. >>

  I will have to disagree. Take a look at Revelation Chapter 12:
"A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."  Revelation 12: 1 NIV

  The woman here is the Christian Church. As I understand the symbolism, the Sun = God the Father; the moon = Jesus Christ, the woman = the Church; the twleve stars = the Apostles and their teaching; the woman's child = the Second Coming of Christ.
  The dragon, Satan, makes war against the woman because the woman is the Church.
 
  It is incredible to me that anyone would think that the Church in the 21st Century would enter heaven in a "Rapture" through the door in heaven that John's spirit passed through in the First Century!

 Continuing my reply to 2nd Timothy:

  Harper's Bible Dictionary has an article on Resurrection but none on Rapture, since there is nothing to discuss.
  The Book of Daniel is apocalyptic but there is no mention of Rapture.
  "He [the angel] replied; Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end." Daniel 12:9 NIV
  "You will rest and then at the end of the days you will receive your allotted inheritance." Daniel 12:13 NIV
  This is Resurrection, not "Rapture."
  Ezekiel is apocalyptic and anticipates Revelation on many particulars. Ezekiel 37 describes the resurrection of a valley of dry bones. I am sure that many would see this as foreshadowing a general Resurrection, although there is another interpretation. It is clear that there is no "Rapture" in Ezekiel.
  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
  For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV
  This is four books of the Bible that deal with end time events. None of them foretell a "Rapture" or promise that Christians will be spared end time persecution. On the contrary, Christians are warned about the very persecution that the Rapturists say won't happen.

 2nd Timothy:
<< John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(KJV) >>

  The Many Mansions passage is certainly one of my favorites. I have no idea what you think it has to do with a Rapture. It is simply a description of heaven, of Paradise. It means that God's Kingdom is vast.

  Likewise, the verse you quote from Thessalonians 3 simply has nothing to do with a Rapture.