I agree A4C. I think scripture is very clear on this subject.

Rev. 21:14
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Did Paul consider himself on of the twelve? ....

1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.    
8   And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.  

...No



Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Master, Jesus, went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.  Acts 1;15-17, 20-22

Where possible, Paul avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. Because he was not a witness of his earthly ministry as the twelve were.

The Holy Spirit gets alot of bad press. If you go to a "Holy Ghost meeting", the chances are the Holy Spirit is not going to be there. If you go to a Jesus meeting, the Holy Spirit will be there because the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to himself, but to Jesus.
 Alot of crazy things are done in the name of the Holy Spirit, but to go to the extreme to say that all the gifts have ceased, cannot be shown in scripture.

You say that  the "perfection" in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the completion of the Bible, and since we have the Bible today, the gifts have passed away.
The "perfection" in verse 10 refers to our perfection, not the completion of the Bible. The context itself clearly tells us this, as it talks about "we" and "I" knowing in part, then knowing fully, being a child, then growing into a man.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
11 When I was a child,...When I became a man,...
12 ...Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,...
If we say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible, then we are actually saying that the Bible  went through these human growth processes.

The passage clearly talks about us (not scrolls of scriptures) knowing partially then knowing fully, and that when the latter happens, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that help build up and empower the church) will no longer be necessary and hence be done away with.
v12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."
Again, to say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible is to also say that the Bible once saw a "poor reflection" of itself in the mirror, then saw "face to face" with someone once it was completed. This, of course, is silly.

We don't see the Lord "face to face" now. He is still at the  right hand of the Father, interceding for us, since His ascension. What we see is a "poor mirror reflection" of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Because we are in Christ and Christ is in us by His Spirit, we reflect His image, though poorly, when we "look in a mirror".
Despite the dim reflection, the more we behold Jesus, that is, to learn more about Him, the more we are transformed from glory to glory into His likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18).

This transformation is still ongoing for every Christian, but it will be completed when we see Christ "face to face"  no longer as a poor reflection in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12).

When Christ comes back for His church, we would be perfected, complete knowledge with glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 3:16,17, 2 Thessalonians 1:1).


Do you cessationists know it all? Has "know fully" or "perfection" happened to every Christian as cessationists believe? No. Just because we have the Bible, functions of evangelism, pastoring (shepherding), and teaching  carried out by men who "labor in the word and doctrine" does not mean that we now know perfectly.
Some cessationists then argue that we should not take "know fully" in absolute terms. They say that "know fully" just means knowing God's salvation plan.

Well, the qualification is in verse 12 ; "even as I am fully known". We are fully known by one person only- God. So, have we come to the place where we know fully to the same degree and standard that we are fully known by God?

You have been taught that these gifts are supernatural "signs" of Gods power that were necessary for evangelism because the canon of Scripture had not yet been completed.
You often site 1 Cor 13:8-12 were Pual says

 8;Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9;For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  
   
 10;But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  
   
 11;When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  
   
 12;For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.  
----------------------
In other words, these gifts cease when "that which is perfect shall come" which you interpret as the completion of the canon of scripture.
The context of this Scripture clearly relates "that which is perfect" refers to the second coming of Christ. When Christ returns we will no longer need spiritual gifts because then, of course, we will be in completeness & will live in perfection. There is simply no scripture that clearly states the gifts of the Spirit would cease after the first century.

History repudiats the notion that the supernatural gifts ceased with the closing of the canon of Scripture at the end of the Apostolic age. Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Ambrose and others literaly mention the use of spiritual gifts like tongues and prophesy long after the first century. And of course the Reformers believed that the gifts of the Spirit were in perpetuity. Many great church leaders today still believe in the use of Spiritual gifts.

To claim that the use of Spiritual gifts have ceased is in my opinion, is to spit in the face of both historical and contemporary evidence.
Rom 11:29   For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God has not changed his mind concerning Spiritual gifts We should all abide in Pauls instruction the "eagerly desire" spiritual gifts and to "not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor 14:39--1 Tim 4:14)

Prophesy, tongues and healing are no different than teaching, mercy-showing and service. Just as the later gifts compliment the ministry of the Word, so should the former. They are not meant to compete with Scripture for the place of authority and guidance in our lives, but in Christ's body they each provide a speacial ministry of grace wich the believer needs to "grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ" (Eph. 4:15)

One Hope - The imminent, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to catch up the members of His body to be with Him forever is the "blessed hope" of the believer (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13). The body of Christ will not be on the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Tribulation (Rom 13:11; I Thes. 4:13-16, 5:1-11; II Thes. 2:1-17).

Grace & Peace

One Lord - Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He is true God and true man (Matt. 1:20-23; Rom. 1:3; Phil. 2:6-9). He suffered and died as the propitiation of God for sin (Rom. 3:25), and three days later He rose bodily from the dead. We no longer "know" Him through the accounts of His earthly ministry, but as the resurrected Head of the Church, which is His body (Rom. 15:8; II Cor. 5:16; Eph. 1:20-23).

One Faith - The body of truth revealed to the Apostle Paul for us to believe, in this, the age of God's wonderful grace (Eph. 3:2; Col. 1:25). Sound doctrine for the age of grace was revealed to Paul. These sound words should be held onto by the saints and committed to faithful men who shall teach others also (II Tim. 1:13). In Gal. 1:11-12 and I Tim. 6:3, Paul states that his gospel was "by revelation of Jesus Christ" and that his words are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor. 14:37). God's truth for living today is found in Paul's writings, Romans through Philemon. The book of Romans is the foundation to be built upon, progressively and successively, through to the book of Philemon, and this pattern of instruction works to produce godly edification in the life of each believer.

Grace & Peace

One Baptism - The Bible teaches of many baptisms, however, there is only one baptism recognized by the Word of God for this present dispensation of grace. That is the spiritual baptism by which the believer, when he/she trusts Christ as his/her Saviour, is identified with the Lord in His death, His burial, and His resurrection. This spiritual baptism is also the means whereby the believer is given victory over sin (Rom. 6:1-5; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:11).


Grace & Peace

One God and Father of all - There is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (I Kings 8:60; Isaiah 45:18; John 8:19; II Cor. 13:14).


Grace & Peace

One Gospel - My Gospel

The gospel of salvation from the penalty of sin - Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice. All who believe on Him are justified on the basis of His shed blood (Rom. 3:24-28, 5:8-9). People today are saved by grace through faith alone, and at the moment of salvation are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are eternally secure (Eph. 1:11-14, 2:8-9).

The lost, the unsaved, will suffer eternal damnation as payment for their sins (Rom. 2:1-11, 6:23; Eph. 5:6; II Thes. 1:7-9; Rev. 20:11-15, 21:.

Grace & Peace

ONE Mission and Commission - My Commission and Mission

The mission and commission of the church is to proclaim the message of reconciliation (II Cor. 5:14-21) and to preach Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, as first revealed to the Apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:1-9; I Tim. 1:16).

Grace & Peace

If you are trying to convince us that spiritual gifts have ceased, your going to have to be more convincing.
 Try being more specific.

[Pro 24:9 The thought of foolishness [is] sin: and the scorner [is] an abomination to men.]

Yo, 3wells, dont get your undies in a bundle. A4C and BL are your brothers in Christ,  show some respect.

If we are all brothers in christ then why are you critisizing me alone?

Can you show me anywhere where these two have shown respect?

Is this your idea of respect:

"We should be like you and Benny Hinn"

"And maybe I will start up on own T.V. show on TBN I will call it The Goose-Bump Hour"

"Brother Love, I think 3 wells is Jim Jones, be careful, dont drink the Kool-Aid."

"3wells your in that seat, is it HOT?
Are you a Sunday School Teacher at the AOG?"

I'm not here to discuss Benny Hinn, TBN or AOG. There are already enough threads for people who want to spit on them. I am interested in discussing what scripture does and does not say. Is it impossible to do that without having the focus thrown off by people who want to suppress the truth?

Take a look at the thread "Spiritual Gifts" and read the last page (page 5). I carefully went though the arguments put forth by Sower and addressed them with scripture. They did their very best to sabotage that entire thread to get the focus off scripture and turn it into a sandpit.

I know I made some mistakes, and I regret giving way to their provocation, but if you look back at all that has been posted the past few days then you will see where it started, and that for the most part I have been trying to discuss the topic at hand. If someone asks me something then I try to always answer it in sincerity. Refusing to answer is disrespectful. They could at least have said that they don't know the answer, don't you think?

3wells
I wasn't critisizing you. What I mean by showing respect is debating without getting a hot head. I did just read "Spiritual Gifts". I can see why you would be offended by their comments. Maybe they were just responding to being told they were "tickling satans belly", but I do not understand why they would mock you.

Name calling and mocking is not proper for any servant of Christ. It is a responce of the flesh. It is sin.

Pro 24:9 The thought of foolishness [is] sin: and the scorner [is] an abomination to men.

Pro 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

Pro 19:25 Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, [and] he will understand knowledge.

Thats what they did to Jesus;
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.


Love in Christ  

[Yo, 3wells, dont get your undies in a bundle. A4C and BL are your brothers in Christ, show some respect.]

No Way Bro, still a lot of prophies still need to be fulfilled, that is the ones that are in the Word of God (The B-I-B-L-E) NOT the ones the clowns on T.V. and the Clones like them give.

Grace & Peace

Yo, 3wells, dont get your undies in a bundle. A4C and BL are your brothers in Christ,  show some respect.


The Holy Spirit gets alot of bad press. If you go to a "Holy Ghost meeting", the chances are the Holy Spirit is not going to be there. If you go to a Jesus meeting, the Holy Spirit will be there because the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to himself, but to Jesus.
Clowns and clones are putting it gently. They are wolves in sheeps clothing, false prophets and do not represent the gifts of the Spirit or the gospel in any way. Alot of crazy things are done in the name of the Holy Spirit, but to go to the extreme to say that all the gifts have ceased, cannot be shown in scripture.

You say that  the "perfection" in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the completion of the Bible, and since we have the Bible today, the gifts have passed away.
The "perfection" in verse 10 refers to our perfection, not the completion of the Bible. The context itself clearly tells us this, as it talks about "we" and "I" knowing in part, then knowing fully, being a child, then growing into a man.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
11 When I was a child,...When I became a man,...
12 ...Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,...
If we say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible, then we are actually saying that the Bible  went through these human growth processes.

 The passage clearly talks about us (not scrolls of scriptures) knowing partially then knowing fully, and that when the latter happens, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that help build up and empower the church) will no longer be necessary and hence be done away with.
v12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."
Again, to say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible is to also say that the Bible once saw a "poor reflection" of itself in the mirror, then saw "face to face" with someone once it was completed. This, of course, is silly.

 We don't see the Lord "face to face" now. He is still at the  right hand of the Father, interceding for us, since His ascension. What we see is a "poor mirror reflection" of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Because we are in Christ and Christ is in us by His Spirit, we reflect His image, though poorly, when we "look in a mirror".
Despite the dim reflection, the more we behold Jesus, that is, to learn more about Him, the more we are transformed from glory to glory into His likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18).

This transformation is still ongoing for every Christian, but it will be completed when we see Christ "face to face"  no longer as a poor reflection in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12).

 When Christ comes back for His church, we would be perfected, complete knowledge with glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 3:16,17, 2 Thessalonians 1:1).


Do you cessationists know it all? Has "know fully" or "perfection" happened to every Christian as cessationists believe? No. Just because we have the Bible, functions of evangelism, pastoring (shepherding), and teaching  carried out by men who "labor in the word and doctrine" does not mean that we now know perfectly.
Some cessationists then argue that we should not take "know fully" in absolute terms. They say that "know fully" just means knowing God's salvation plan.

Well, the qualification is in verse 12 ; "even as I am fully known". We are fully known by one person only- God. So, have we come to the place where we know fully to the same degree and standard that we are fully known by God?

[not guilty]

The Lord said to the sinful woman in Luke 7:50
"Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
He didn't say:

"Your faith has started you down the path toward initial justification. Arrange for a baptism, through which you'll attain the forgiveness of sins, after which you can maintain and increase your justification by participating in other sacraments, working in your church, doing deeds of kindness, and avoiding mortal sins. After a lifetime of this work, you will at last attain eternal life."

How many millions of souls have been deceived by false gospels that take people's eyes off of Christ crucified (1 Corinthians 1:23-24, 2:2, Galatians 6:14)? Salvation through works creates fear and despair. It denies the sufficiency of Christ's finished work. It takes glory from God that belongs only to Him. It makes salvation unjust rather than just (Romans 3:26), since it makes the gospel a revelation of men's righteousness, not God's (Romans 1:17). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in Christ and His finished work, His righteousness:

The world is  divided into 2 camps on the doctrine of salvation.

One camp believes and teaches that salvation depends in some way upon the works of man. This is the camp of Cain, the first person ever to believe the heresy of salvation by human effort.

The second camp is that of Abel and it believes in salvation completely by the grace of God through the work of Christ.

Salvation by grace and salvation by works divide the religious world. The Bible, however, only supports one of these positions. Not salvation by works, but salvation by grace.

People are saved when they believe, even before being water baptized (Acts 10:44-48), even while they're ungodly and not working (Romans 4:5-6). This salvation through believing response to the word of God is not an exception to a rule, but is the rule! (John 5:24, Acts 19:2, Romans 4:16, 10:10, Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Peter 1:23-25). Paul uses Abraham, an unbaptized man whose works of faith in obedience to God were not a means of salvation (Romans 4:10-11), as the example of how everybody is saved (Romans 4:16). Abraham was saved through faith alone. So is every other person who is saved, as a child of Abraham, who is "the father of us all" in regard to salvation (Romans 4:16).

We will be judged by works;
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

But WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Jhn 6:29   Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.  
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." Titus 3:5
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Hbr 4:10   For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.  11   Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.  

I am going to heaven because Jesus Christ has purchased me with his blood. He was the only one worthy to be a sacrifice for me. I did nothing to gain my salvation and I can do nothing to keep it. God looks at me and sees the righteousness of Christ. He has declared me not guilty.

"You stand over the mouth of hell on a single plank, and that plank is rotten. You hang over the jaws of perdition by a solitary rope, and the strands of that rope are snapping one by one. Frailer than the spider's web is your life, and yet that is the only thing which divides you from a world of despair. The slightest insect commissioned by God's providence may end your unhappy life."   (Charles H. Spurgeon)

see also
http://www.worthynews.com/Sermons/spurturnorburn.htm

"People go to hell because of unbelief". Amen


There are many people today that dont even believe in a literal hell. People are quick to accept Jesus teachings on heaven, but just as quick to dismiss his teachings on hell. The truth is, I dont want to belive in a lake of burning fire where people will burn in torment forever. You would have to be a sick person to "want" to belive in hell. But if the Bible is the literal word of God, and IT IS, then we must accept it. If hell is not judgment then what did Christ die for? What did he save us from? Christ did not die in vain. God is Love, and God is the righteous judge of all his creation.

The New Testament doesnt tell us to give 10% of our increase.          "Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Cor. 9:7). The Old Testament tithe was required by law.  The New Testament teaching on giving focuses on its voluntary character. "For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability they gave of their own accord" (2 Cor. 8:3).  We are free to give the amount we choose to give. If we want to give 10%, we are free to do so. However, if we decide to give 9 per cent or 11 per cent, or 20 per cent or 50 per cent, then so be it. Our standard of giving is not a fixed percentage point, but the example of our awesome Savior.       "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich" (2 Cor. 8:9). Our standard of giving is Christ Himself, who did not give 10 per cent or 20 per cent or even 50 per cent, but 100 per cent! He gave everything He had, including His very life in order to redeem sinful men and women like you and me!


Peaople that have alot of money feel that if they just pay their ten per cent, God is pleased. But for a wealthy man to give ten per cent of his income may actually be displeasing to God if he is living a life of extravagant luxury, while giving a mere appeasment to the work of God and the needs of others. The will of God for this man may be for him to be giving 40 to 80 per cent of his income instead of ten per cent. We must be led by the Spirit through prayer as to how much money we shall give.

Those who are poor should not feel guilty if they are not able to give ten per cent of their income. It is true that God will honor and bless the man who gives sacrificially, but if an individual decides that he can't give ten per cent of his income and still meet his basic needs, he does have that liberty. After all, God has nowhere told Christians that it is their duty to give any fixed percentage point. Anyone who says so does not have an understanding of the scripture.

If it is true that tithing was part of the Old Covenant worship of Israel, and has no practical bearing upon New Covenant Christians, the question is, what does the New Testament actually teach about giving?

1 Corinthians 16:1-2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." Paul directs the church of Corinth in their collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem to give proportionately to how they have prospered. Though there is no mention of the saints in Corinth giving a tithe, they are instructed to give proportionate to their prosperity. Those who have more to give should give more.


Acts 11:27-39: "Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. And one of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea."  In other words, they gave according to their ability. Those with more money, gave more. Those with less money, gave less. Very simple.


2 Corinthians 9:7: "Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." Paul tells the church to give what they have purposed in their heart. Notice that the Apostle does not tell them how much to give, or give them a fixed percentage. He simply tells them that whatever they have decided to give they should give. Notice that the apostle Paul leaves the amount up to the Corinthians. We are not to allow others to manipulate or intimidate us so that we give out of guilt or pressure.


Most churches that ive seen still teach the tithe. We are told that if we dont give our 10% that we are robbing God and that God will not and cannot bless us.  All of this runs contrary to the Apostle's teaching in 2 Corinthians 9:7 "let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." I personaly believe if we all were to do as Paul instructed, local churches would probably have more money coming in than they would preacing the tithe. People living under Grace are more likley to give more of their money than people still trying to live under the law. "For the law of the Spirit of life has set us free from the law of sin and death." Rom.




Acts 2:44-45 "And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need."

1 John 3:17 "But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth."


Galatians 6:9-10 "And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith."


Philipians 4:15-18 "And you yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs. Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account. But I have received everything in full, and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God."

Luke 12:33-34 "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."


Ephesians 4:28 "Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need."

Hello all,
Im new to this forum, actually this is my first post in any forum.
I agree 100% that we are not under the law of tithing. For some however, 10% of increase to their local church is a good place to start. I personally do not find anything "wrong" with tithing, it is a good prinsible to give 10% of our increase to the work of the church. But as we grow in muturity as a believer we must learn to be led by the Spirit in our giving of money, as well as all types of giving.
The interesting thing about tithing under the New Testament is that is almost absencent. I have found four different passages which mention the "tithe" in the New Testament.


Matthew 23:23: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

This is repeated in Luke 11:42. THis tithe was not money but was with garden herbs, Also the Mosaic Law was still in force. These Pharisees lived under a different covenant with different laws than the New Testament believer does. By Christ's death He inaugurated the New Covenant, thereby bringing about a change in the law (Lk. 22:20; Heb. 7:12).

Luke 18:12: "I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get."

In this passage Jesus is telling the parable about the Pharisee and the tax-collector. The self-righteous person trusts in something "he does" to be accepted before God, but he is not justified before God. Christ is speaking about a Pharisee who tithes living under the Mosaic Law, not of a Christian tithing under the New Covenant.


Hebrews 7:1-10: "For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he abides a priest perpetually. Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham. But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham, and blessed the one who had the promises. But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. And in this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him."

This passage is showing us the excellence of Christ, who ministers as a priest far superior to the Levites. So this passage can not be used to enforce the tithe on Christians. It has nothing to do with Christian giving, but everything to do with the superiority of Christ.

There is not one word in all the New Testament to command that New Covenant Christians must tithe.

 The New Testament however gives us much instruction on the subject of giving.

Im short on time so I will finish my thought tommorow.
God Bless You All!