Dear nChrist - and Hello!

Without some disagreement, there would be no questions. Without questions, there would be no learning. And in a loving fellowship, it should stand as such.  How can we teach and encourage otherwise? (smiling here) No worries here over divisions and anger. It's too prevalent in day to day life, to tolerate it among ourselves. Sadly, there's too much of it in churches as well.  I'll get off that soapbox before I get cranked up....

I have my little grandson today, so I won't be referencing the Bible. However, I think I can wing it. I agree that the Rapture and the Second Coming of our Lord are two separate events. I was raised and believe that the Rapture is also before the start of Tribulations, although there will be tribulations for us all before the Rapture. I also know that Israel and The Body of Christ are separate, insofar as promises and judgments. And Paul did reveal some of the mysteries of Christ's coming to Christ's Body (church) being the first to do so. All of this was firmly rooted in my heart as a child, as far as learning goes. (I'm the one who rebelled in my middle years. Thankfully, Jesus thumped me pretty hard on the head)
I have never read Matthew with the thought of it being the Second Coming. I will read it again in that regard. I'm still not settled about the matter, but I am a willing listener. (and I do know that the wicked will not be subjects of Christ's rein here on earth, it would be impossible to have a thousands years of peace.  )

As much as I know I'll spend the rest of my life reading my Bible, I also know that there shouldn't be any confusion concerning our Lord's timing in coming back. God's plan is a perfect plan and frankly, that's all we need to know. Jesus did tell us to be watchful and He taught us enough to know, even us simple ones; that we don't want to be caught asleep at the door. I believe that His Coming is soon, although things aren't as bad as the days of Noah, they're getting close. It could be our generation or the next, possibly the next....it shouldn't matter. Because it IS a sure thing that each of us face the first death in our own time, and we know not when that comes either.

I'll read and study more, maybe even attempt a deeper study of Revelations. I've read it and studied some, but my personal thoughts were that I should be more familiar with the Whole before I tried to understand the last. I'll get back to this again and let you know. I may have (!may? ~ will more like it) questions. Whether they can be answered or not is not the point, insight is. Thank you for taking the time with this and for being so gracious. Not something I'm used to. I hope all of the old timers are as rare a commodity as you are. From what I've seen so far.....(smiling here)


Love in Jesus always,
Teresa

Dear nChrist
Since I am still very new to the forum, my thoughts were not to question this article in the Bible Study area. It just seemed bad manners. I don't sign in all the time, especially to just read and enjoy your posts in the Daily Devotional, Two Minutes with the Bible, etc. And not just your posts, I have found interest in many, and I've learned some things too. Bible Study and a 'second set' of eyes were my main reason for joining. Please understand, it's not of my character to be confrontational in any manner. My life before Jesus took a firm hold on me was nothing but confrontation and drama, I lost the taste for it long ago and almost can't bear the thought of it.
When I first read the article I was curious, even though an alarm went up in my mind. I considered my raising, all I had learned in church; and most especially what I learned from my Grandmother. I took seriously Mr. Stam's statement that Matthew 24: 40-42 was a misinterpretation. There are many more learned in the Bible than I am! I read the article, I saved it as well. Some of these I send to my daughter, however this one I didn't as usual because it troubled me so much. I've kept it in my heart and thoughts and I've had my nose all over the Bible.
I'll copy the article here before I go on:

~~

 TWO IN THE FIELD AND TWO AT THE MILL
by Cornelius R. Stam

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour you Lord doth come" (Matt. 24:40-42).

How often the above passage has been interpreted to apply to our Lord's coming for the members of His Body! At the rapture of the Church, it is said, two will be working in the field, when one will be taken to heaven and the other left to go through the day of God's wrath, and so also with two women who may be grinding side by side at the mill: one will be caught up to be with the Lord and the other left behind.

But actually this passage cannot have anything to do with the rapture of the Body to be with Christ.

First, the truth of our Lord's coming for the members of His Body was a secret first revealed by the glorified Lord through Paul (I Cor. 15:51-58; I Thes. 4:15-18 ).

But from Matthew 24 itself it is still more evident that the passage cannot refer to the rapture.

True, the passage says: "The one shall be taken, and the other left", but where and how will the one be taken, and what will be the lot of the one who is left behind?

From the verses immediately preceding, it is evident that the coming of Christ to earth to judge and reign is in view. This coming is likened to what happened in the days of Noah. The people ate and drank, married and gave away again in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, "and knew not until the flood came and took them all away". These people were not "taken away" to glory; they were "taken away" in judgment.

Since verses 40 and 41 are a continuation of this illustration, it is evident that the two "taken away" are taken away in judgment at our Lord's return to reign, while the two who are "left" are left to enter into His millennial reign. This interpretation alone is consistent with the whole context in which we find this passage.

How much confusion would be avoided if the truth of the rapture of the Body to be with Christ were recognized to be what it is: a divine secret first revealed to Paul concerning the Church of this present dispensation, the Body of Christ.

~~

Now, I've only read two versions of our Bible; one being the 1974 Living Bible which is paraphrased. I enjoyed that Bible and believe it to be a good 'starter Bible'. But even I recognized that it wasn't giving me all that I needed, so I went back to the KJV a while back.  I read all of Matthew ch.24 and did not see that those left would be those that would enjoy peace on earth and those taken would be those taken to judgement.
Certainly, I know that I take the Bible as it is, I read it plainly and take it as a whole Truth. I also know that there are mysteries of which we will know nothing until the end of days. But even in the context of the whole, I could not see the evidence that Mr. Stam says there is. Even in his referenced scripture of 1 Cor. 15: 51-58 and 1 Thess. 4:15-18 could I see anything that would uphold his understanding of what he read. Paul is in 1 Corinthians answering the question of how we will have bodies, be resurrected; to those who doubted. Yes, that's simply put; but that's what it is. "Death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?  And the first letter to the Thessalonians 4: 15-18 absolutely contradict what Mr. Stam has presented in his article. As unlearned as I am verse 17 is absolutely clear.
I would ask that you read Luke chapter 17, when Jesus teaches the disciples of the days of Noah and the days of Lot as an example of the way things will be. And too, Luke chapter 18 (as Jesus is still teaching), the parable of the unjust judge had meaning for me concerning this. As did Luke chapter 21. Verse 36 especially caught me. I suppose what I just remarked upon is enough, I know that you know the Bible. I have it in my thoughts that you may even be a pastor. So I am being pretty 'cheeky' to presume anything. I did read Daniel again from chapter 9, although my understanding of Daniel is not as good. I still understood it enough.
I am sorry to bother you with this. I had thought to just leave it alone, but I felt I had to go with my heart. If there is something I'm not seeing, I trust the Holy Spirit will point it out to me in due time. He may even use you to do it! (smiling here) However, there can be no other authority for me than God's own Word.
With the love of Jesus always,
Teresa

I'm a 'newbie', so forgive me for replying to such an old thread. The topic line caught me and 'grandkids' grabbed me. I enjoyed so much reading your posts and agree with the statement that we do go crazy over our grandbabies. And yes, distance does tend to increase the level of craziness. I only have one at the moment, one I waited patiently for, for five years. The minute I held him in my arms, I heard my grandmother say "it's a circle.." One of her favorite sayings that I just never got completely, until now. Another of her sayings comes to mind as well: "Your grandchildren are twice yours."  Finally, finally...I get it! And it's so true too, that our children are our reward. Our patience in raising our 1st children are seen in the 2nd ones, especially when you hear those sweet words from your 1st: Mom/Dad....you were right! Praise God, they really were listening!

  I also enjoyed the topic line. I'm glad I joined up with you folks, it was time I stopped studying the Word alone.

Interesting. I've wondered about Saturday verses Sunday occasionally. Not so much as to cause any consternation in my heart, more curiosity than anything. ( To answer Soldier4Christ: the official day of worship I was raised with is Sunday; the 1st day of the Hebrew calendar week.) I would really be interested in hearing Soldier4Christ's answer. (you left me hanging dear friend)

It's disconcerting that anyone would want to find a published author to strengthen an opinion; and that's not to say that any and all outside of the Bible study should be avoided. God is, after all, everywhere.  Until I got serious about my Bible, I didn't know diddly about the Hebrew calendar. My days, weeks, months and years go according to the calendar that we all go by; and on that one the 7th day of the week is Sunday. Therefore we go to church and worship on Sunday and 'everybody else' who worshiped on Saturday....well they were just wrong. (and in my family you just didn't DO that, for goodness sake!) I never questioned it growing up.
Now of course, I know a little about the Hebrew calendar and the 'why's' of it. (and here also the acknowledgement that the Hebrew calendar has changed much, necessarily) After all God hung the sun and the moon to light the earth and distinguish the days, seasons. The Hebrew calendar is lunar based and the sun/moon doesn't rise/set on man's time.  I respect the Hebrew calendar though I don't keep it, but my not keeping to it hasn't condemned me. Calendars are good for ordering our days with respect to the world and that's all they are simply said.

Now getting out of all the scientific stuff which just tangles up the old thought processes; what does it matter whether we worship on the 7th day or the 1st, when we are to praise and worship our Father all the time? We are all of the same Body, same Vine, even if we have differences of simple opinions. Should we allow the day we use for fellowship and study, though it may be different, cause strife? I firmly believe in 'keeping the Sabbath day Holy' and I do my best to do that on Sunday. Were I raised that the Sabbath was Saturday, then I'd do it then. Aren't we all taught that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around? Where can true Love between brethren be where such arguments abound? OH! And I'm thinking about the book of James, too ~ the whole book is wonderful teachings, but I'll jump specifically to chapter 4 verse 17. (I was thinking of Paul's teachings, still am)

Ok. Stuck my own nose in and dished a few cents worth. I still want to know what you would say Soldier4Christ, in the interest of learning more and being corrected if I'm looking at this wrong. Everyday is a good day to learn something new, see something I didn't before, get closer to Jesus and understand more clearly! And I mean THAT all the way to the moon and back! 
(and my apologies that I don't know a specific author to rstrats)

Love in Christ!
Teresa

Willful Sins
 
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)
 
This is one of the most controversial passages of Scripture because of its apparent conflict with passages which teach salvation by grace, entirely apart from the law or any form of works (e.g., Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5) and absolute security in salvation to those who belong to Christ (e.g., John 10:28-29; Romans 8:35-39).
 
Actually, many passages warn against deliberate acts of sin by Christians. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" (1 John 2:4). "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him" (Titus 1:16).
 
Clearly, there are dozens of "proof texts" on both sides of this question, and it cannot be settled by citing a cliché or two in a brief study like this. There can be no real contradiction in God's Word, however, so the Lord must have had a good reason for inspiring this apparent paradox in His book. On the one hand, it is vital for every true believer in Christ to know that He is saved and has eternal life. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). On the other hand, it is deadly dangerous for a person merely to think he or she is saved when there is no evidence of a changed life. Such Scriptures as our text give sober warning that professing Christians have no basis for any assurance of salvation if they do not obey His words.  "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3). Therefore, "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5). HMM

Good morning!
I couldn't not reply to this. I started to....but it didn't work out. This is a subject that my heart has come back to time and again, pondering over and yes, I've even shed some tears. One of the thoughts that has caused literal shudders in me is even the very whispered thought of my Lord saying to me " I know you not... I never knew you..." 
My reassurance comes from God's very own promises that He wrote His laws on our hearts, that once truly saved we will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It seems impossible to me that we could willfully sin, breaking the commandments given us, to go against the Truth. I believe what Jesus said when He told us that He is with us always. I have to, I would be lost otherwise. There have been many times since being saved that I have been troubled, really troubled; and didn't understand why. It was only through prayer, talking with Jesus; really looking hard at my heart... "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith"..that I came to understand what the trouble was, that I had been wrong and then corrected.  Thank goodness, too. It's more than just merely 'difficult' to get through a day troubled in your spirit. I'm glad too, for the correction. Oh so glad! I know He is with me, understanding, compassionate and caring to do so.
Could be, and this is just a thought, because the thought of eternal damnation is so fearful, the warnings are heartfelt. And I mean Heart Felt and Terrifying. Also it serves us in a way that we would know those who are just saying they are Christian and not to get 'tied up with them'. It teaches us too, to be very careful. To 'think before we speak' , be diligent even in and especially, in private. None of us knows the other so well as to know what each of us do alone, but our Lord does. Knowing that we are never alone....well, that speaks for itself doesn't it? And knowing Jesus, knowing how much our Father loves us; how could we ever do anything to cause Him hurt? He already suffered so much for us, it's unbearable to think.
So, it all comes back around doesn't it? You can't bear to hurt the One you love above all else because He loves you so. Those that would never really loved Him. That is about the only way it makes sense, at least simply.
Stay close!
Teresa

Thank you for this post. I thank God that you posted this and for all it blesses with understanding.

This may be an overly simple understanding, but I have always taken "...that He gave His only 'Begotten' Son..." as meaning 'being born of a woman'. (or being 'begat' of a woman)What I am trying to say is taking the Bible as a 'whole' and having read Genesis and the 'begats'; this was the only way that God's Divine Nature and man's could become One. The only way the Word could become flesh. So Jesus is God, our Father's Perfect Offspring on earth.
I said simple, didn't I? My apologies. 'Understandings' are very hard to put into words. There is a simple, perfect beauty in Jesus's Birth. 
Thought provoking, Thank You!

Merry Christmas and thank you both so much for your warm welcome! I will most assuredly holler if help is needed, Tom. Grandchildren are wonderful, aren't they? I'm thankful that I lived long enough to see the 'circle'.
God Bless you both, and don't forget your prayers!
Love,
Teresa

I did read the chapter that you asked. And as Solomon learned the hard way (and we should take his lessons to heart) I found it all 'vanities and vexation'. In my humble thoughts, and they are humble, I never got past 11th grade), I'll start with the title of the book "The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy". The word 'Ecclesiastes' is from the Greek, meaning a gathering or assembly. When I read Solomon's book, I take it to mean 'a gathering of what he has learned' or 'an assembly of his trials and errors wrote for the benefit of our learning'. (*sigh, not that we did) 'conspiracy' is taken from that dead language mentioned, Latin; and as close as I could find means 'to breathe in harmony'. Fitting. Taking that meaning to heart, I prefer to 'conspire' with my Lord Jesus. And for that learning, I have to turn to my Bible. And I'm not going to worry myself over someone interpreting the word(s): Gathering, Assembly, Congregation; into the word 'church'; or the word 'elder' into the word 'priest'. These are mans folly and mine too, if I fall in it. And here I'll tell you that I almost did and learned from it, thank the Holy Ghost. OK, I know that you're not asking for a sermon. I read your profile and know that you are very educated and know these things. To your questions:
1. Did the Roman Catholic church conscientiously try to hide the Bible from the people - and if so what might have been their motivation?
I'll direct you to another article concerning the KJV: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/12/king-james-bible/nicolson-text. The article is secular, just as the one you read, but a bit more unbiased. At least in my opinion. This article suggests that the language (English translation) of the Bible was meant to be accessible to all people. I particularly focused on the old cowboy who was saved while in jail because of this Bible.
I do think that the RC church has motivations of their own, to protect their 'hierarchy' most likely. Man is full of vain-glory. We love our traditions and ceremonies. And that would go for all recognized churches. (the whole of Matthew chapter 23 is a good study) Jesus clearly stated in verse 3: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not. And I'll take this with 2 Timothy chapter 3:16-17. 
As for your thoughts: I agree with all my heart your definition of religion. Religion has disappointed me all of my life, tangled up my thoughts and served more to pull me away from Jesus than bring me to Him. I am happier in a relationship with Jesus. But again, I need my Bible to grow. (refer back to 2 Timothy) ~ And we do need fellowship with one another, in Christ.
Man has attempted to intentionally interpreted God's Word to suit himself and no where in scripture can you justify the present church. That's a dog chasing his tail. No matter how much man might try to justify himself using Scripture, he can't; we will all be judged the same in the end. We must work out our own salvation, each of us; by understanding God's Word as it is. For that I need my Faith and my Bible. My salvation is not going to be given me by any church. It will go terrible for those that mislead His children, but it will still go terrible for His children if we allow ourselves to be mislead. God is no respecter of persons.
Are we doing 'church' wrong? If we're 'doing' church, then yes we are. The True Church, The Body (assembly, gathering, group, herd, bunch, flock) of Christ will not be confounded at the end. Jesus is the True Vine and the Only Way, we build on Him, the Rock. Not even the individuals within the Body using the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, those individuals are for our edification, part of the vine, but not THE VINE. They can minister, but they don't save us.
All Scripture is God Breathed, I do not think for a minute that God would allow His Word to be 'lost in translation'. Man's knowledge is foolishness; vanities and vexations. Jesus is Wisdom. If we take the Bible as a 'whole work' go back to the original sin, God's first commandment to man was not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. We've gone downhill ever since and are still eating it.
I love to study and am interested in history, I read just about everything I see when it concerns the Bible. But I always keep in my heart and mind, my Bible; first and foremost in learning. And I trust my Lord to give me understanding.
Thank you for this discussion! I hope it helped in any small way.

I'm here to read, learn and share encouragement. I've visited Christians Unite for quite some time now. It is a good help in studying God's Word. I'm a mom and grand-mom. Also plain and simple.