Just a reminder to fellow christians that no political party is pure and no politician is pure: Remember Lewis "Scooter" Libby? He was Assistant to President George Bush, Jr. and he was Chief of Staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. There was an investigation into who leaked out the identity of a CIA undercover agent, Valerie Plame. There was a case, 'United States vs. Libby.' On March 6, 2007 Libby was convicted of obstructing the investigation into who traitorously, illegally revealed Plame's undercover identity. Libby was convicted of obstructing justice, making false statements, and perjury (lying).

Evidence at the trial (United States vs. Libby) established the following:

 - Libby learned from his boss, Vice President Dick Cheney, that Valerie Plame was an undercover CIA agent.
 - Libby passed along information about her to a New York Times reporter in a meeting.
 - That meeting between Libby and the reporter had been approved by Vice President Dick Cheney.

Also, former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage admitted that he disclosed the information to a reporter.
Also, former conservative columnist Robert Novak publicly identified Plame as an undercover CIA operative.
Robert Novak said top Bush political adviser Karl Rove was the 2nd source for that newspaper column.

This is what millions of Americans remember was done to undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame and her husband Joe Wilson by the 2nd Bush administration. Plame told a congressional committee that the Americans who exposed her as a CIA agent had ended her CIA career and endangered "entire networks" of CIA agents overseas. Why was this traitorously done by American politicos to an American CIA operative? Because her husband, former U.S. ambassador Joe Wilson had the courage to do his duty and let Americans know the white house was lying to Americans just to sell the idea that we must invade Iraq. He told the truth about the white house manipulating CIA intelligence in order to lie to Americans and make it seem like we had to invade Iraq.

After his wife's CIA identity was traitorously publicly revealed, Joe Wilson said "I don't owe this administration. They owe my wife and my family an apology for having betrayed her. Scooter Libby is a traitor."

Thank you for the welcome Brother Jerry.

So what is your suggestion for fixing our broken health system?

Thank you for responding. I had stopped using paragraphs on forums because one time when I did on another discussion board someone said I should condense it by removing paragraphs. But I agree with you about paragraphs so I'll go back to using them.

I certainly do not mean to judge anyone else's Christianity. I do not believe in doing that. I only meant to explain my way of seeing Christianity. This past year I went to an evening Bible-study thing at church and the pastor made an important point that will stay with me for the rest of my life. The pastor said we should not ever say to another person that we think they are not Christian enough. We can share with them how we see things but not put down their Christianity. There's a difference. I do believe in 'judge not lest ye be judged.'

I don't defend the current health legislation exactly precisely as it is. But at least one person on here should state the obvious which is our health system has been in crisis for years. There was an excellent documentary on tv maybe 5 or 6 years ago (I don't remember the title of it) about the American and Canadian health systems. It came to the conclusion that America and Canada should each take a look at what works in the other country's model - and adopt whatever works better than their own. The conclusion was that each system had something to learn from the other.

I guess you could sum up the Mid-Staffordshire hospital story with an associated article's headline that I saw that says 'Britain Tolerates a Broken Health Care System.' But the same headline could substitute the word 'America' and it would also be true. America tolerates a broken health care system. If we listen to much of the discussion going on in America about health systems in industrialized nations, it would seem that the U.S., Canada and England are the only countries in the world to talk about. Health care in France is more affordable than in our country, is of better quality than in our country, and is not rationed. France covers its citizens with basic medical care - and 98% of its citizens choose to supplement that with insurance that they buy from private companies. It is the best of both worlds.

Okay, so I'm all talked out about health systems. All I can say is people should always do their own research. Have a great week. 

You might have misunderstood. I was talking about politics and politicians and what they are like - not you. I was not putting you down. I did not think I even referred to you at all except the part about "stay or leave - we don't care." You do not answer or address anything at all that I said in my second post. Instead you are simply complaining that a Christian has "skills in oration or writing"? Unbelievable. Also, someone else who replied against my first post from yesterday admitted he did not even READ that post. He said it was difficult. If he has eyesight problems or dyslexia or something like that I don't know. If so, my heart goes out to him for that. But it means he put down my post without even reading it. God gave us a brain, so he does not mind if we use it. In fact, I think it's an insult to God if we don't. I do not apologize for being able to read or write. Of course we are here to please God. But when you say we are not here to please men, that does not mean it's okay for Christians to ignore men (mankind). It is NOT okay. That gives Christianity a bad name and does not spread Christianity or increase the numbers of Christians. And you ARE supposed to care about whether or not you do that. Non-Christians are watching us and we are to be the best example of Christianity that we know how to be without making Christianity look like it's only for simpletons. As Christians we are supposed to try our best to learn how to intelligently discuss something or not at all. Otherwise, if we shut other people out and never care what they think and they do not get saved because of it - God will hold us responsible. We are here as Christians to please God - AND to interact with other human beings so that we can win them to Christ. I have no patience whatsoever for other Christians who put up a wall to other people who do not think EXACTLY the way they do. If you put up walls and are not willing to even discuss things with other people, fine. Just do not claim that you put up your walls for the sake of Christ or in the name of Christ. Christ was not of this world but he most definitely was IN this world - doing the hard work of going out and speaking with people, trying to understand how they thought about things so that he would know how best to reach them. Christ did not wall himself off from the world. He went out to face the world and use SPEECH - to interact with people in order to reach them. He made no apologies for his oratory skills. I am tired of having to defend Christians to people who are not saved because they say too many Christians are uneducated, never read, and do not know how to discuss things with non-Christians. It is always sad for me to have to realize that they are correct about so many of my fellow Christians. It's as if some Christians think a Christian cannot be educated and actually read and write and be intelligent and discuss things and STILL read the Bible and be a Christian. I am here to tell you you can. Stop giving non-Christians ammunition against Christ. Where do you think all that talk comes from when they say too many Christians are back-woods hicks who are incapable of reading and carrying on an intelligent discussion? Non-Christians are only pointing out what they have observed - and I always have to defend Christians by saying no, we are not all like that. I am always and forever having to defend Christians to unsaved people. I have to tell them, please believe me, you can be a Christian and still use the mind God gave you and be educated. Thank you for the Bible verse except that it is totally off topic. If someone thinks it is too difficult to read and has not read this post, it is best not to bother replying to it. What's the point? If someone does not like something I said or takes it personally or doesn't know how to actually answer anything I said, why bother responding to it? I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth. If you think I did, please point it out. If I did, I will apologize. But I do not think I did at all. Do not say "it's all very simple" and then refuse to discuss something. I'm starting to get the idea there really isn't anyone on this discussion board except me who is actually here to "discuss" anything at all. If not, what's the point? Preaching to the choir? I'm already saved and I'm already a Christian. I thought this might be another chance to fellowship with other Christians in addition to my church friends. Maybe this is because this particular post-thread is under the category of 'politics?' You see? That's what politics does to people. It just polarizes and divides them for no good reason. Politics is part evil.

It does matter if this forum includes children. Thank you for mentioning that. I had thought it was adults discussing things. I do agree that if the forum includes children then it's different and then there are some things that should not be completely discussed. When you say 'if you stay you will obey the forum rules,' well of course. (I did not say that I wouldn't.) But when you say "stay or leave - we don't care" that was one of my points. Jesus did not tell others 'be saved or not saved - I don't care.' If we think someone is not saved, we have a duty as Christians - as Christ taught us - to try to save them. Christ did not teach us to just get angry at them and basically say 'we do not care if you are saved or not saved.' I re-read my post that I posted yesterday and I did not mean for it to come across that harshly. There is always a danger when a person mixes political discussion with religion. Christ did not get involved with the politics of his day. I am not saying Christians should not get informed and should not vote. All I mean is that it is not a good idea for Christians to basically say to one another 'my political viewpoint is more Christian than yours.' I recommend a book called 'God's Politics' by Jim Wallis. (The subtitle is 'Why the Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get it.') Jesus and Christianity do not need politics. This worldly human system of things needs politics. But Jesus and Christianity do not need politics in order to spread Christianity. The gospel is such a powerful message that it stands on its own. Politics can only dirty it. All I'm saying is there has to be a way for Christians to keep the 2 things (Christianity and politics) separate on some level. Politics is an important reality of life and I am not saying that we as Christians should have nothing at all to do with it. But politics will ALWAYS have an element of evil in it. Politicians from BOTH parties benefit from USING religion and USING religious people for their own agendas. But Christianity never benefits from using politics. Christianity does not need it. It stands on its own. We as Christians will ALWAYS have to choose at some point to sacrifice some level of worldly power in order to stand up for the purity and truth of the gospel. And we must always be willing sometimes to put aside our politics in order to reach and save the unsaved people. I think we would all agree that no political party is EVER about purity and truth. No politician is ever about purity and truth. Politics is the opposite of purity and truth. Neither the Republican nor the Democratic political party is pure or righteous. Both sides have some ridiculous viewpoints that they wind up defending just because of politics. We have to be able to separate our politics from our Christianity to SOME extent as Christians. I have plenty of loved ones who would agree with your way of thinking on the health-system/political thing and I still love them. They are precious people. They have their own mind and they have to follow their own conscience. I respect them just fine, too. But I also have to follow my own conscience and my own understanding of what Christ meant when he said to take care of the sick. I do not blame the sick person for getting sick. Jesus taught over and over that we are supposed to care for the sick. He never once preached that anyone is supposed to get rich at the expense of the sick. There is absolutely - and I repeat ABSOLUTELY - NOTHING 'communist' about Jesus's way of looking at that. And it bothers THE MAJORITY of Americans greatly when Insurance corporations do everything in their power to try to prevent people from being covered when they need it most - even when they have paid their premiums for years and years. Our health system is out of balance and has been in SERIOUS crisis for YEARS. We can disagree on the details of what to do to change it, but Americans want SOMETHING done to change it. Americans are tired of politicians taking the easy way for years and just not doing ANYTHING at all to TRY to fix it. I used to be a benefits administrator for a small company and I saw the double-digit inflation year after year in the premiums the company paid on the health benefit. For years and years now, inflation on health premiums has far out-paced general inflation to a ridiculous, unsustainable degree. It is UNSUSTAINABLE for small businesses. And small businesses are the backbone of our economy. I guarantee there are some people who are getting obscenely, immorally, unnecesarily rich off of sick people. All most Americans know is that they want their representatives to at least TRY something different and they want it NOW. We have ALL waited too long. And make no mistake - our system of government is corrupt and that's a huge part of the problem of nothing being done in the past to fix our health system. Both Democrat and Republican representatives are too influenced by money.

I just now changed my mind about removing the Christians Unite item on my iGoogle desktop. I thought about my own argument about hearing what others have to say about things. Also, there are some things that I do agree with on the Christians Unite news service and it is always interesting to see what other people here are saying about things. But I completely stand by my comment that this is not a real discussion board - and that it hurts Christianity when people are told that they cannot even truly discuss something.

Here we go again. More Christians giving Christ and Christianity a bad name. I am a Christian. I know at least one thing: God gave us brains so He doesn't mind if we actually use them. Christians Unite has a news article saying Americans don't want 'bureaucracy and government boards' between them and their health care. We already HAVE bureaucracy and INSURANCE COMPANY boards between us and our health care.  INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE PAYING PEOPLE TO BE BUSSED AROUND FROM TOWN HALL TO TOWN HALL to try to drown out ANY healthcare reform discussion. It's very interesting how our country's national religious leaders will speak out on all sorts of national issues - except for healthcare for the sick. What do we mostly get from them on this issue? Silence. 70 million American citizens are either UNinsured because they cannot afford our country's immorally-priced health coverage - or they are UNDERinsured because of the amoral, for-profit, GODLESS Insurance corporations - or they have the money to pay for coverage but corporations tell them they are "un-insurable" because of pre-existing conditions. This is IMMORAL.  Almost 20,000 American citizens DIE every year because of this corrupt health system's immoral for-profit nature. And as an American citizen I consider it an absolute INSULT to my country to suggest that The United States of America is INCAPABLE of doing something that EVERY other industrialized western nation on the PLANET is capable of doing: covering their citizens' health needs. If all of THEM can do it, do not even begin to TRY to tell me that my country - The United States of America - of all nations - is the ONLY ONE incapable of it. That is an insult to the United States. To all Christians out there reading this message: seriously consider your responsibility as a Christian to be as informed as possible on such an important subject - NOT to be as political as possible on such a subject. (That means not just getting your 'news' from the Fox Fake 'news' channel and not just listening to radio show political talking heads.) Insurance corporations, etc., do not exist to help people get healthy. They exist only for ONE thing: pursuit of the 'almighty' DOLLAR. Health insurance corporations and pharmaceutical corporations DO NOT HAVE A SOUL. They literally do not have a soul. If they did, it would reflect only one thing: a dollar sign. That is literally their only concern and their only reason for existence. They will do just about ANYTHING to keep the status quo. They will do just about anything to keep things as heartbreakingly horrible as they are for so many millions of American citizens when it comes to health coverage. How can you prefer to leave Americans' health 'care' in such cold cruel hands rather than the hands of our democratically-elected representatives? That's right, every time you put down 'the government' or 'government boards' you are just putting down democracy and American citizens. In a democracy the government is just you and I. In a democracy 'the government' is just you and me - it is just who we have democratically chosen to represent us. I will be removing my Christians Unite News desktop item from my iGoogle homepage. Why? For one reason. Not because I disagree on this one issue but because Christians Unite gives Christians and Christianity a bad name by willfully promoting ignorance in its discussion boards policy. Did you read the policy when registering to be able to post here? It tells you that you do not have freedom of speech on their discussion boards. That is like communism. That is against the principals we believe in as Americans. And that is not a discussion board. I am not referring to the parts of the policy that say you can't swear, etc.  I agree with not being able to swear, etc. What gives Christians an ignorant image to non-Christians is the part of the policy, for example, that says you cannot 'defend' 'alternate lifestyles.' What that means is you are actually not allowed even to discuss them. Then this is not a discussion board. If there is one point of view that is not even allowed to be expressed, that is like communism and it is not only silly, but it hurts Christianity. If you are confidant that your point of view is valid and true, then you would have nothing against discussing it completely. Saying that you can't even discuss something does not help Christianity. It hurts Christianity. It says to non-Christians that a Christian's point of view cannot be defended and that Christians believe if they discuss their beliefs they will lose the argument. I don't know about your arguments and ideas, but I have confidence in mine and am not afraid to discuss them. I cannot even begin to tell you how many unsaved people I've heard that have been turned off to Christianity because some well-meaning Christians get upset when others just want to discuss a subject. We as Christians are not just supposed to hang around and talk with only other people who think just like us. Jesus did not do that. Some people got upset with Jesus for speaking with prostitutes and people with bad reputations like the tax collectors of the time. Didn't he say that it is the sick who need a physician? What is the point of keeping Christianity to yourself and telling others that they cannot even talk to you? You are supposed to openly, calmly discuss things with people that you think are wrong. Otherwise how can you ever change their minds? Pray over this for God's wisdom - while asking completely that GOD's will be done - and see if He doesn't show you the wisdom in my way of thinking on this. God bless.