I realize there is a verse in the new testament that says we should obey our spiritual leaders...Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you. what does that mean to you?  Do you think that that means that our pastors have the right to tell us who to marry or not to?  Where to work?  I've been having a lot of problems (in my head) with this... partly because the wife of the husband wife pastor team especially, likes to preach on this and, in my opinion, butt into every one's lives whether they want advice or not.   Do they have the authority to tell you who you can or cannot talk to?  Sorry, I hope someone has some wisdom to share with me here 

First of all, what is a pastor? Where did the NT ever establish that pastors are the authorities? They're mentioned only once through the entire text, and yet many professing believers seem to see that title written on every other page of the NT.

Secondly, where did the word of God ever hand spiritual authority over to those guys who head up man-made, religious organizations most call their church?

I've never found a verse where the Bible states that a hireling automatically qualifies as a leader of biblical stature and caliber.

SwJr

It's been my finding that handing one's so-called tithe over to organized religion is, in most cases, a robbery of God given that most church organizations consume the largest portion of what's handed over to them into their facilities, lawn care, staff salaries, etc., etc., and only the leftovers used for benevolent outreaches to meet the needs of fellow believers.

SwJr

[NOTE:]

Can it still be said that NOT giving is still a robbery of God?

When discussions about tithing and/or giving arise, one key question I hardly ever see or hear anyone ask is about God's priorities in our giving.

To illustrate, let's look at an all-too-common scenario:

Every week, Joe Blow and Plain Jane plop their tithe into the passing bag, plate, tray (or whatever a particular group may use) with great big smiles of self-satisfaction, and they experiences a nice, warm fuzzy after having done so, and are made to feel all warm and cozy inside after being told from the pulpit that they're such good boys and girls for having been faithful stewards for what they just did. My, but Joe and Jane are so proud of themselves. They have a nice house, new cars, jet skis........or they may have very little at all........my, but the Lord has blessed them..................right?

Well, was Joe TRULY consistent with God's priorities in his giving?

Let's take a look.............

Christianity Today Magazine published an article in a 1997 issue about the results of a cross-denominational, national survey of 10,000 church organizations across North America, which revealed that approximately 97% of all institutional churches absorb more than 93% of everything they take in. In other words, the vast majority of all church organizations use ONLY what's left over for benevolent outreaches.

Do you suppose that's in agreement with God's priorities in our giving?

No. It's not even close!

Why?

What is a religious church organization? Is it man-made, or God-breathed?

Does it glorify God when professing believers lavish the largest portion of their own giving back upon themselves from their giving by way of direct benefit from the facility, its air conditioning, heating, professional staffing, materials, lawn care and parking lot, etc., etc.? If so, then how?

Oh, I've heard all manner of argumentation. People habitually point at the few benevolent things church organizations do for their communities. Well, as the survey revealed, that benevolence is most generally doled out ONLY from the leftovers from the budget.

In other words, the needs of fellow believers take a back seat to the facility and its massive expenses.

How is that consistent with God's priorities in giving? Where do we see that exemplified in the Bible?

NOTE: Before anyone dares make the fundamental blunder of pointing at the OT tithe, be warned that such blind indifference to the TRUTH about the OT tithe will only get one in trouble with legitimate apologetics. The OT tithe went ONLY for the meeting of needs, never for the upkeep of the temple structure itself. So, I hope we can avoid wasting time traveling down that dead end.

Besides all that, the OT tithe NEVER, at ANY time, had anything to do with the wages of wage-earners. Not one example exists anywhere in scripture of the tithe applying to the wages of even the workers who harvested the tithe from the fields, orchards, or vineyards. Today, however, religious leaders would have us believe that everyone who earned wages back then payed a tithe to the Levites. This clearly is not at all in keeping with what's written.

So, what, then, can we say about the man who blindly hands over to his religious church organization the primary (largest, first fruits, or whatever you want to call it) portion of his giving to something from which he directly benefits. Handing that same amount over to the family down the street where the husband lost his job from a layoff or factory closure, and then giving far less to his church organization is frowned upon by the religious elite. The giver doesn't reap any immediate benefit from such giving. However, institutional tithing gains immediate and lasting benefit. Besides, the organization couldn't afford such a large facility if everyone actually followed God's model for giving.............right? The professional hirelings, otherwise called pastors, might have to go out and work a real job to earn their way, just like everyone else.

None of this means that it's inherently wrong to have a communal facility and professional hirelings within. What's wrong is the priorities professing believers demonstrate in their giving. That alone should cause more people to pause and consider what God has in mind for our giving.

Yes, yes. There's always that stout soul who will yammer on about how God allegedly directed him or her to hand over the largest portion of their giving to their church.

Well, the battering ram of blaming God for one's actions may work against other people who are weak in their knowledge and understanding of scripture, but it doesn't work with me.

God doesn't make a habit of directing someone to do that which is contrary to His stated purposes and will for His people. Only ONE prophet was told to marry a known whore, meaning that such an instruction was never issued as a blanket instruction to all the other prophets. That instruction served a demonstrable purpose for the nation.

So, it's my hope that we can also avoid treading up dust on that dead end road as well while exploring this topic.

SwJr