[firstfruits]

 Paul 2 wrote:

"The Jews missed the fact that Jesus Christ was to come twice, first as the Lamb, then as the Loin. They expected the Lion and missed the Lamb."

Question:
How can Christ, who's mercy and grace are the saving attributes, rapture a "bride" , become a LION pouring out wrath, AND AT THE SAME TIME STILL BE THE MERCIFUL SAVIOUR OF THE TRIBULATION SAINTS? This theory is FALSE DOCTRINE!

You have to keep making up facts and convoluting the scripture to MAKE IT FIT!  

Paul did NOT reveal "it" He believed in one return of Christ NOT TWO.  He said himself
1 Cor 15:23,24
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

AND THIS:
2 Thes 2:3
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

No one wants to go through the great tribulation OR ANY tribulation, we are creatures of comfort.  But the Lord WILL PURIFY HIS PEOPLE AND HIS PRIESTHOOD, and tribulation will work the patience needed to endure to the end, as it is written over and over again in the Revelation.

Romans 5
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Herein lies the patience of the saints.  

8 times in Revelation this is said:
 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith"

sunodino

[to the end SHALL BE SAVED]

First of all your entire discourse is based upon two premises both of which are not proven and theologically in error.

Premise one:  The Holy Ghost is the restrainer, and leaves the planet
My comments:
The restrainer is NOT THE HOLY GHOST. How can the Holy Ghost LEAVE THE PLANET? WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? As in your Trib Saints theory? The restrainer is Michael who is in battle with the spiritual princes of darkness, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc.  The book of Daniel is the key, once unlocked all is understood.

Premise two: Tribulation and Wrath are the same, so, church leaves during great tribulation.
I quote from the web site: "This time also signifies the time from the catching away of the faithful, and the 2nd Coming.  The seven-year Great Tribulation will commence the day after the feast of Trumpets when the Bride has been taken away "to be with the Lord" (your emphasis)

Theologically, this pre-trib rapture is false teaching.  Neither Tribulation nor Great Tribulation is WRATH. "He that endures to the end SHALL BE SAVED
Matt 10:22
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13  

And see Matthew 24:29b
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
This issue is cleared up in brilliant detail, Marv Rosenthal ( a messianic Jew) in his book "Pre-Wrath Rapture".  A fantastic discourse on this subject, as he has a magnifiicent understanding of the Jewish calendar and the Hebrew text.

wrath - Hebrew: 3709. orge; punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

tribulation - Hebrew: 2347. thlipsis, thlip'-sis; from G2346; pressure (lit. or fig.):--afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

great - Hebrew: 3173. megas, exceedingly, great (-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to year

Read the explanation Jesus gives of Parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matt 13:37-50 particularly vs 39 and vs 49, 50:

39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

If  you carefully read the Revelation of John and the 7 seals, you can see where the tribulation ends and the wrath begins.

Some of your discourse is pretty interesting, but I disagree with most of it, especially the Babylon theory, NEW YORK (??)

Again, the Bible interprets itself, the four kingdoms and their associated animal icons have not changed, the significance of Iraq is lost in this web site explanation.  

Oh, by the way, your vision(??) Yikes!

sunodino -

[Luke 6]

Luke 6[/u]
21  Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22  Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy:[/b] for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24  But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25  Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

Joy now, in knowing the day IS coming when we will have GREAT REJOICING IN HEAVEN!

Hebrews 6[/u]
12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

We still have PLENTY to learn!

[But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.]

Matthew,
I am standing with you in prayer.  

Holy Heavenly Father, you always hear and answer our prayers.
You are merciful and righteous and our brother Matthew needs your immediate touch today!
Forgive and heal O Lord that the urgent need of our brother is met and may he quickly feel the peace and faith that can only come from you,
In Jesus name I pray

Psalm 13
3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
4  Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.
5  But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.

[DON'T QUIT!]

I thought this was supposed to be a Christian discussion forum when I joined not more than a few short hours ago.

Instead of seeing Christian love and tolerance all I seem to see is nasty, vicious attacks, biggotry and slander, poor debating skills and a general unwillingness to discuss Christianity without resorting, without comment, to endless and often apparently irrelevant quotations from the good book.

ChristainsUnite seems a bit of a misnomer to me. The non-christians on this forum seem to be far more united than the Christians and, sadly, seem to be running rings around them.

Have I got it wrong or should I just bow out gracefully now?

It is somewhat a culture shock when you start a dialog on controversial issues with people you don't hang out with in your norm denomination.  At first it is, well annoying to read some of the stuff posted, but then you get to know the personalities in a way, and maybe back off a bit.  IT'S A GREAT FORUM.   I am somewhat new myself, and I agree with Reba and Tibby, both with whom I have had disagreements!  



DON'T QUIT!  Sometimes we all need a little slap on the wrist. Give it more time.

Hey sunodino!  I think your are the first person that has actually given the type of response Mr. 5020 was looking for.  Iraq's future is pretty obvious while Bush is president, but what'll happen when he is gone?  Its kind of freaky when you think of the things that could easily fall into place once Bush's Iraqi control is no longer an issue for old babylon.

If Bush gets re-elected, I believe we have a few more years to do what Jesus commanded, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

If not, I believe, we will be neutralized in such a way that we will not be able to help Israel.  If what I said happens, the Hashemite family, Abdullah II, Ali bin Hussein, ruling Jordan and Iraq, then a very powerful alliance of land, riches and power will be in the hands of the Hashemite kingdom, (who by they way, claim to be the direct descendants of Muhammed, who better to rule Arab nations?) They will have the oil, the weapons (that nobody seems to be able to find), and the land mass.  The Arab nations right now are resisting this rulership. It is a big problem although you will not see it on mainstream news!  

Look out, we are headed for it headlong! "broad is the way the leadeth to destruction"

[And I will put enmity between thee and the woman]

sunodino,

Well, here is a piece of truth.

There two  seedlines, note the words of God judging the serpent with a curse, then He truns to the woman;

Gen 3
14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Note verse 15, very closely, here is the first mention of two seedlines.

The seed of of the serpent and the seed of the woman.


Blessings ,

Petro

Petro,
I hope you are still looking in on this one.  Your bit of truth is very interesting!

Are you suggesting that there are people that are born of the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman?

Please elaborate.

Thanks,
sunodino

[quotes from Heidi making accusations about me:]

SInce you take credit for your own salvation, you must also blame others if they aren't saved, because after all, it's THEIR fault if they reject Him. This causes judging, which is not a fruit of the spirit, instead of understanding that none of us can help ourselves. That is why we need God.

I don't take credit. Jesus is my savior because of Calvary. No other reason

I fought God tooth and nail but He had chosen me anyway! In one split second, I "all of a sudden believed". Never mind that I had just received the Holy Spirit. That was a minor detail.    Why does Jesus say "Forgive them, Father for they know not what they do?" Have you even thought through these things, or do you just blindly quote scripture without discernment?

What? You say;
"Never mind that I had just received the Holy Spirit. That was a minor detail. "
Yikes, You are really confused, "O God DON'T SAVE ME, I INSIST!"  that is rediculous.

Boy, we are certainly powerful to be able to go against the Holy Spirit.  That's of course, grandiosity, not humility. Why do you think the rejection of the holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin? Or haven't you thought that out either?

We alone can do nothing to gain salvation. As Jesus said, "I can do nothing without the Father." If you think these are weird ideas, then you must not believe Jesus's words. I trust people whose ideas are more in line with the fruits of the Spirit. The closer they are to humility, the more i believe their words. True and complete humility is acknowledging that God is responsible for whatever good is in me, including my salvation, not me.  I will explain what I think the bible means by free will later. I have to get to bible study.

In Christ,
Heidi

Here is a list of accusations you made about me, without shame, you don't even know anything about me or my salvation experience, what I have been delivered from or what the Lord speaks to me about.

quotes from Heidi making accusations about me:
1.  SInce you take credit for your own salvation,
2.  you must also blame others if they aren't saved
3.  not a fruit of the spirit,
4.  instead of understanding
5.  or do you just blindly quote scripture
6.  then you must not believe Jesus's words
7.  Or haven't you thought that out either?

Talk about lack of humility. You come off very self promoting. I don't think you really want to seem that way on this forum, like you are somekind of an elitist chosen above everyone, and everyone else is decieved!  I think you need to apologize.

I will explain what I think the bible means by free will later. I have to get to bible study.

PLEASE DON'T.  You have gone way off the original subject as you usually do on all the threads.  This is my last reply to you about this. Not into arguments.  I respectfully decline.  

Obviously, I believe that the ten (are they heads or horns) in the book of Revelation are ten European Union countries that will unite under the AntiChrist.

Might I enquire which ten of the fifteen existing or future member states you are refering to?

As to the 'Christian heritage'  might I ask why you feel that they should mention religion at all in what is after all a political institution? The heritage of Europe is one of division and often warfare, often fueled by (or in many cases caused by) religious difference. Remember, most of the development of the different strands of Christianity was fought out in Europe.

Please remember that the EU is expanding and will soon include non Christian nations such as Turkey as well as only nominally Christian countries such as the UK.

There used to be an expression (do you have it in the US?) "Never talk about religion or politics (at the dinner table)" There is a well established belief in much of the EU that you should not "mix religion and politics".

Yes we have that expression in the US.  But this is a Christian web and religion is not what we believe in, it is LIfe, in Christ.  We expect a secular government one day, pretending to represent religion as well.

By the way,
The ten are not from the EU. Acts chapter 2 tells you who they are.  Everything to do with Bible prophecy and the 7 heads and ten horns is revealed in the Bible.  Western Europe is not where it is at, though everyone seems to be on that page.  Eastern leg of the Roman Empire, take a look at that.

Welcome VNB. Jump right in!

But the earth according to scripture is 13,000 years old.

What scripture(s)?

Where did you ever get the idea it was 6,000?

1000 yrs a day, a day a 1000 yrs.

When was the Flood?

Year   Year     Age
Born    Died     Died
Adam
1       930          930Seth        130      1042      912Enos        235      1140      905Cainan        325      1235      910Mahalaleel     395      1290      895Jared        460      1422      962Enoch        622      987      365Methuselah     687      1656      969Lamech     874      1651      777Noah        1056      2006      950NOTE: Methuselah either died in the flood or just before it rained.     Adam lived to see Lamech born.   
                  
                                            
   NOAH'S AGE when      600   1656 (year)   FLOOD   CAME         
   NOAH'S AGE when      601   1657 (year)   FLOOD   ABATED

If you follow the Bible geneology it gives you the above information: Genesis 5:3-32

I just started from the year 1, as the beginning sequenced up.

[but that all should come to repentance.]

I think it is you who are misintpreting scripture, Sunodin. Read the whole gospel of John. I was just at a bible study about it.

So? I wasn't at your Bible study.  

It is extremely clear that God does the choosing, not us. God either hardens our heart or opens up our eyes.

God opened my eyes and offered his salvation, I accepted, and committed my life, making Jesus Lord of my spirit, soul and body.  That is not arrogant, it is the process of salvation.

That is why rejection of the holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. When someone takes our blinders off and we can see the world, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE not to see.

Rejection is something I can choose to do, BUT I DON'T.  That also is not arrogant.

You are giving credit for your belief to you own superior intelligence. That is arrogance and not a fruit of the spirit. Jesus Himself said, "I can do nothing without the Father." He gives complete credit to God for everything He can do. When addressed by the rich man as "Good Sir", He said "Why do you call me good?No one is good but God alone."

The "call me good" story, does not relate to me, as Paul said; "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:"  I didn't save myself, the work of the cross finished the work that allows me to be saved.  That is from God, not from me, I received it and accepted.  

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I don't think you see what it is in you that allows you to believe. You think it comes from yourself. There are huge powers operating in the universe that are much bigger than the human being. To say that we are too omnipotent not be affected by God and the devil is extreme arrogance. Read the 7 woes in the Gospel of Matthew. In it, Jesus explains why God has hardened the hearts of the Jews.  If He has blinded someone's eyes, that person is not more powerful than God to "decide" to believe. If God chose us, He makes sure His will is going to get done.

Whoa, you really say some weird things. I am not more powerful than God, but I was created with a free will. Anyone who ends up in the lake of fire goes there willingly.  Sounds like you are heavy into "predestination".  I think I have always commented on the side of the scriptures, holding up the glory of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. However, you are accusing me of something I never said. I detect some confusion.  

You have not read the book of Romans?
Rom 11
12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

They will once again open their eyes, but they will have to accept Jesus as Messiah, just as the Gentiles.  

Now I don't want to get into a 30 page dialog with you that does not profit either of us.  So, let's just agree to disagree. Thanks

[that whosoever believeth in him]

The notion that we have choice is simply not scriptural. Jesus said that no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him. So if I want to come to God and God isn't drawing me, do I have a choice? Am I bigger than God or is Jesus just plain wrong? Jesus also said that we didn't choose Him. He chose us. Paul didn't just wake up one day and "decide" to be a Christian. He was ZAPPED by the Holy Spirit which is what made him believe. Peter wanted not to deny Christ but he was too afraid for his own life. But then when he received the Holy Spirit at pentecost, he all of a sudden "decided" to give up his life then. What a coincidence? Come on, sunodino, let's give God more credit than we humans.

Whoa, I think you are really mis-interpreting what scriptures you are referring to. Yes, the Father draws us, and yes Paul had a special visitation from Jesus, because of his Apostolic call, but Jesus calls ALL THE WORLD, and WE CHOOSE TO SERVE HIM OR REJECT HIM.  We are not ZAPPED  without our own consent, that is the difference between us and animals, nature and dead things!

John 3
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is clearly implying that Christ came to save the Lost.

John 6:35  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

To "come" to Jesus is a choice to be where he IS.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The word throughout the New Testatment translated "believe" is the Greek word:  
pisteuo, pist-yoo'-o;  to have faith, believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with.

This  believing, trusting, committing, is something only one can do WILLINGLY. "whosever will"

[deceiving, and being deceived]

Rely on your powers of deduction, Ebia. After all, human logic is perfect.

Sorry Heidi, I don't usually overtly disagree with you, but you have said some very strange things, "God is outside of us and the devil is inside of us?"  And now, human logic is PERFECT? I don't think so.  We have been born with a choice, to serve the Lord or to serve the devil, but it is the individual "flesh" i.e; soul, spirit, body  -  are independant of both.  We can be influenced, and frankly, many times I have wrongly so, somtimes my logic has superseded the urging of the Lord.  My logic is imperfect - so is yours.  Start proving your point with the Bible, instead of philosophy to make it credible.

Hence, this thread, "What is truth"? was meant to imply that the only truth comes from Jesus and His word. To prove a point one MUST use the scripture to prove it and in two or more witnesses according to Jesus; the work of calvary was for that very purpose!  All else is supposition and opinion. Books galore take two sides and multiple views of an issue, who is telling the truth?  Is there truth?  YOU BET THERE IS.  Ultimately, it MUST BE  the Holy Spirit that guides us through the word of God or one can be sorely deceived.

2 Tim 3:13,14,16,17
13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17  That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[and his kingdom was full of darkness]

Care to show me the post  where i said  Mr. 5020 your wrong?


  Where in this verse does it say  'the antichrist is a king'?

Oh Reba, everytime there is an interesting theological debate, you jump on someone. If you have a revelation, why don't you share it instead of picking apart a sentence or two.

Here is your scripture:
Revelation 16:10, 11
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,  And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

[were the first day.]

Gen 1:4,5
4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

These were 24 hour days, 12 dark, 12 light.  
Hebrew - 'ereb  - night
Hebrew - boqer - (as the break of day); gen. morning

God was the light until the fourth day.  There was no need to create another light source as God is light.  Then on the fourth day:
Gen 1
15  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16  And God made two great lights,the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: ; he made the stars also.
17  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18  And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.[/size]

So much text that is clearly about the night and day, that drives home the point in this seemingly compressed explanation of creation by Moses, it almost is as if, God knew men would try to deny his miracle of 6 day creation!

I agree, 1000 years a day, a day a 1000 years, 6 day creation 6000 years for man and then the 1000 millenium.  Those that want to believe the Revelation has already past are usually Roman Catholic, that is their teaching.