[depths]

Rev 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. (KJV)

Again and again my heart soars as I contemplate this verse (it was fresh on my heart the day I chose a user name here at the forum). This tells me that the Love of God is so vast, so unimaginable...that He has arranged for not only our overcoming (He is the author and finisher of our faith)...but He has also arranged a personal, unique, individual and intimate relationship with all those who overcome!! You may have been Joe so-and-so for a few decades here, but throughout eternity you...the new creature in Christ...will be called by a name known only to yourself and the Lover of your soul who thus named you...Grace beyond Grace!!...The depths of the riches!!

WS

[have]

AMENS all around bros.

It seems the days have come when they will not endure sound doctrine.

However, there is also an AWESOME FEEL GOOD portion of GOD'S WORD for those who are saved and realize the RICHES OF CHRIST.

1 John 3:1-2  See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. ~ Tom

How great a Love indeed!! and by His marvelous Grace...when we do realise what you have shared here Tom...such low views of prosperity seem silly and trite...God help the masses of people who have been suckered by the fables of such "ministries"

WS

This thread turned out to be a really nice discussion. ~ BEP.

Let me un-nice it a little here 

Joel Osteen has trod the Gospel of Christ under foot. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the "mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" that Paul speaks of....(and Joel never does). Equating the size and success of Osteen's "ministry" with God's blessing is prepostrous....Tony Robbins has the same "blessing" for the same reasons. A token smattering of Christian teaching lost in an avalanche of self-help, ear soothing garbage is a horrifying travesty....especially as it becomes the vangard message of "popular" Christianity.

I often think of Paul's prosperity and retirement plan...prison and decapitation.


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

WS

I wonder if the Pharisees were offended when Jesus called them snakes, vipers, whitewashed sepulchers and sons of the devil...I wonder if the ""leaders" in the temple were offended when He violently sacked their operation and called it a den of thieves. I wonder if we have a completely twisted idea of what is and is not inappropriate offensiveness.

WS

Amen bros.

Regarding unity...I always think of :

I Jn 1:7
7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(KJV)

Don't know how far you went in the articles, but one section was a satirical glossary of post-modernist terms...really, it is the most informative of everything there in terms of exposing this devilish trend.

W.S.

Anyone heard or read about the "Emerging church Movement? also called the post-modern church movement. Seems to be quite a growing movement...this article and accompanying links made the hair stand up on my neck. Come soon Lord Jesus!

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/290-emerging-church

“Our business is to put what is timeless (the same yesterday, today and tomorrow - Hebrews 13:8 - in the particular language of our own age. The bad preacher does exactly the opposite: he takes the ideas of our own age and tricks them out in the traditional language of Christianity.”
C. S. Lewis

W.S.

Indeed Bro. BEP...the Gospel is a glorious and eternal truth..inscrutable. Cults do abound in the land and can quickly be measured against the scripture and found wanting. The Scriptures you have shared are wonderful. Thank you.

I was wondering...Has anyone ever studied/looked into the matter of sonship as it is brought forth in scripture? I have read some authors, whom I believe have taken the matter to extremes..however it became evident as I studied these works that the converse extreme also exits...a general lack of teaching and exposition of the following scritpures. (Try for a moment to imagine that I am a non-cultist with a sincere desire to have open fellowship about these verses..a good old fasioned Bible study....and that I have no pre-conceptions)


Rom 8:19
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (KJV)

Heb 2:10
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (KJV)

Gal 4:6
6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (KJV)

Rom 8:29
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (KJV)

Eph 2:19
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (KJV)

John 17:22-23
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(KJV)

Eph 2:19-22
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:17
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. (KJV)

1 Cor 12:13
13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (KJV)

2 Cor 3:18
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)

2 Cor 4:11
11. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. (KJV)

Rom 8:16
16.The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (KJV)

Rom 8:17
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (KJV)

Luke 15:22-24
22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23. And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
(KJV)

Rev 1:6
6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (KJV)

Rev 5:10
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (KJV)


1 Pet 2:4-5
4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)[color]

I'm wearing out my mouse 

W.S.

[Eph 2:1212. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:]

Wonderful..I'll start the ball, and set a standard of brevity for myself. I've read Andrew Murray, my favorite author, for too many years and have aquired his penchant for paragraph length sentences..I will be brief..I will be brief 

I'm kind of fixated right now on the parable of the prodigal son. This is from my own study and no authors influence that I'm aware of. Why did Jesus tell it? what was God the Son telling us? I took it for years as a story about a sinner  saved...or a backslider repenting, or even Israel's ultimate repentence. It is only recently that I've begun to see some depths in this parable that have taken my breath away. I now believe that the older brother is Israel...("all that I have has been yours all along") and the prodigal I see as the collective gentile Adam (and each of us individually)...He began in the parable as a son of full status. All the riches of his inheritance were his for the asking. His wandering and squandering took him to the farthest reaches of decadence and squalor until it could be truly said of him:

Eph 2:12
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(KJV)

This son's humble return reminds me of the Samaritan woman's statement: " Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table". And yet The Father's reception..even His running to the son while he was still a long way off, speak of such unimaginable grace. The joy and love expressed by the Father are heart wrenching and beautiful beyond all thought. Jesus has made a way for so much more than a kind of bowing, blissfull, and eternal servitude..("even his servants have plenty to eat"  thought the son) We are being returned to his household!!...the robe, the ring, the kisses and the feast are to be our portion "This my son was lost...and now he is found"..Praise God!


Eph 2:13-19
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;[/b]
(KJV)

There are more layers to this..I'll pause for now.

W.S.

 

Amen Bro. Roger. I wholeheartedly agree with the stance on false teachings and prophesies. Your watchfulness is commendable. And I am aware of much of the decidedly abberent teachings of Latter Rain et al. I had hoped my post was clearly stated enough to assure that I am not promoting this doctrine or movement...I am, as a student and a seeker, wanting to understand the many scriptures regarding sonship and being conformed to His image. My interest was piqued regarding these things as I studied the writings of the above mentioned authors. I also study many other authors from dramatically different ends of the theological spectrum. There is an amazing lack of material on the topic of sonship in the greater body of traditional church teachings. I wondered if anyone could offer a studied response. The gnosticism and reducing of God's stature stuff is not at all applicable to any of the authors I've mentioned...their writings have too quickly and uninformedly been swept off into the gnosticism file. I notice many authors are included in the Christians Unite articles and sermons index who address these things.. If I worded myself poorly...so as to make you think I have come here to promote gnostic heresies...then the care I took was not enough. As I said above:

My hope is that some fellowship could come forth to discuss what some of you hear in such scriptural terms as “the first born among many brethren”,  “are being transformed “metamorphos” into His image”, “bringing many sons to glory”, “The Glory You have given Me…I have given them”, We shall be like Him” many, many more.

I honestly care to hear perspectives on the scriptures regarding sonship...not debate the ligitimacy of some fringe group. I have been a Christian for almost 40 years and I have never heard a sermon about the Sons of God....just the quick breeze-by. I've only read about it in the non mainstream writings of George Warnock, T.A. Sparks, Bill Britton, others....and in some of the older more thorough commentaries.

W.S.
   

Hello all,
As I am a newbie, I hope I have chosen the appropriate forum in which to post this thread. I’ll learn as I go.

I met the Lord at 17 years of age. Now at 53 years I have the all too typical background of having “belonged” to a large number and variety of denominations and non-denominations. Through many  distractions, wrong turns and often traumatic course corrections, I am yet confident The Lord has the finishing of my faith firmly in hand. Those small tastes we get of the Living Water leave us always thirsting and seeking for more, and we “shall be filled”  Marvelous Grace!!

I am posting to get fellowship regarding something that has caught my attention this past year or so. A friend gave me a large number of books by authors from the so called “latter Rain” movement. George Haughton, George Warnock, Bill Britton…some others. I won’t go into detail about the content…I’m hoping some of you are familiar with it. What has stood out most to me is the matter of the “Manifest Sons of God” teaching in some of these works…especially Bill Britton. As with all but the most timid writings, it is easy to find reams of nay-saying and charges of blasphemy. I have read a great many of these accusations. I am disappointed to find that most if not all detractors fall on tradition as a bench mark against which they measure the “heresy” of the so-called cults they are examining. A statement of the author is quoted as if the very statement is proof of the false teaching. And then something is said about how this goes against the “traditional” teachings of the church. I find this weak and disturbing.

One of the supposedly heretical assertions made by some of these authors, is that, in effect, “we are being brought into such oneness with and conformity to the image of Christ, that His very nature and life and sonship is and will ultimately be fully ours. I have not yet found the Mormon-like assertion that we will be gods in some autonomous godhood of our own, but that is where the critics seem to always end up….mistakenly as far as I’ve studied.

My hope is that some fellowship could come forth to discuss what some of you hear in such scriptural terms as “the first born among many brethren”,  “are being transformed “metamorphos” into His image”, “bringing many sons to glory”, “The Glory You have given Me…I have given them”, We shall be like Him” many, many more.

Those who stand for "orthodoxy" in these debates  cause me to imagine the prodigal son preferring to reject the robe and the ring and the son status and just stay with the humble, contrite “I’m just a servant” style religion that he conceived while in the pig slop. My expectations have enlarged a hundred fold as I begin to contemplate that I am received as a son…into His household!!.

W.S

"Respect" in this case is a PC buzz word borrowed from the world's doctrine of tolerence (born of the "you do your thing, I'll do mine" drivel of the 60's) As Americans we honor our national heritage of "respect" for the rights of others. As Christians, we don't have even the most remote precedent for respecting other religions. During the time of His walk here,  Jesus refered to The leaders of Judaism as Snakes and Son's of the devil... hardly respectful. Throughout the Bible, paganism is called just that...and any other "god" called "false", no respect whatsoever.
PC/buzz word/pop-psychology doctrine carries such a scent of good or ethical with it, that we easily fall into the trap of confusing it for God's truth.....it isn't.

WS.

Doc,

I was just "window shopping" the site and found this thread intriguing....so I joined up to join in...seems a wonderful community of sincere fellowship. Greetings to all.

I too have a long standing interest in sorting out the matter of church government/hierarchy. Much of what's been said here, thus far, is well taken and thoughtful.

A great part of church structure in our day, seems to have been socially and culturally evolved. I believe we now see something quite far removed from scriptural precedent. Men have an incurable fondness for celebrity. We celebrate those who achieve it and we celebrate the possibility of ascending there ourselves....the Pharisees loved their status and the people took comfort believing the spiritual end of things was being handled by the professionals. By the time Martin Luther came on the scene, the Church had had 1500 years to degrade as it had....the professionals had complete control. The beginning of that 1500 year period was the glorious occasion of Pentecost...quite a decline! Our Protestant beginnings, at the time of Luther, were much less auspicious than a Pentecost and only 500 years ago; given another 1,000 years, I cringe to imagine what church structure might become...barring of course, the intervention of One greater than Luther. 

I for one, am grieved to the core with the celebrityism and one-man-bandism in church operations. The great emphasis from the pulpits now seems to be self help oriented with a tincture of Christ dropped in at the end...How to be better, feel better, look better, succeed in marriage, parenting, business and health. This entertains and attracts and the itching ear is satisfied.

I am continually nourished by the writings of authors from several generations back, when Christ, holiness, the Cross, the Blood and sin were acceptable topics. Many of these revered writers and ministers are still quoted from today's pulpits, but are conspicuously ignored where they have addressed the "clergy" matter. A thorough compilation on this, beginning with say...A.W. Tozer, T.A .Sparks and working back through Spugeon, etc., etc., would render a consensis utterly dis-qualifying a huge number of "minister/pastors" on our current landscape.

Somewhere along the line we have assumed this amazing idea that seminary and Bible school graduates = God called and Holy Spirit sent ministers. It seems that Jesus is commending the Church of Ephesus when He says:


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars(KJV)

Those darned rebellious Ephesians..couldn't they just come under authority?

Shushed for now

WS