Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

So..just to clarify, you are saying this passage says,  "...and [the multitude] were confounded because that every man [of the multitude] heard them [the disciples] speak in his [ each individual disciples' ] own language

Is this correct?

Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. 

Psalm 144:1

1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock,
who trains my hands for war,
my fingers for battle.

Skill, is developed.   Andplusalso, if I'm wrong, I wont know it unless I face an opponent with a better argument.  As you can see here, we can even look at the same words and see them different ways.

Glad to see you think the same way on this point PR.   

I still don't understand how you can claim "scripture interpreted with scripture" (which I 100% agree) and avoid 2:4, just a few vs. earlier, w/in the same thought even, that specifically says the disciples spoke in toungs.  Why would they speak in toungs, where there is no interpreter (another thing Paul speaks against)  and not speak in toungs just a few minuts/hours later when there were interpreters/ listeners?

[they]

'cept'n one thing...er...maybe plural things...

Acts 2:6
6 When they  (plural) heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one (each singular listener in the croud) heard them (plural speakers) speaking in his (plural number of singular  listeners) own language.

Acts 2:8
8 Then how is it that each of us (plural listeners) hears them (plural speakers) in his (plural number of singular  listeners) own native language?

 IMO If the speakers were speaking in their own language, and each listener heard their own toung they wouldn't have known it, and the reference to the fact that they were Gallileans --uneducated people- would have been irrelevant since an event where the lips did not match the speech coming from them does not happen based on education.  Also, what would you do then, with 2:4, that specifically says the disciples were speaking in other languages?

Though I agree that possibly, they were not all speaking at the same time, only assumtion, not the text, supports that.  We're seeing an event that happened over a longer time frame than a couple scentences initially reveals.  There was enough time elapsed from the "sound of the wind" to assemble a large croud, and for the croud to assess the situation.  It is also possible that in the croud, dispersed amongst them, the desciples did speak in toungs simultaneously with each other, but distant enough from each other that they were not competing with each other to be heard.

Untill we can difinatively answer questions like: how much time elapsed, how big was the croud, how much ground did the croud cover, and who said what, when, we can't make assumtions.  As soon as we do, we limit our understanding of the text, and develop theological positions that give skeptics of Christianity a foothold on the claim that the Bible contradicts itself (many assumed contradictions are based on exactly this type of extrapolation--though this example is fairly minor)

agreed   

In Acts 10:44, it was Cornelius' household, those who had allready heard the message, who recieved the Spirit, and were speaking in toungs, as a sign to Peter and the believers with him, and those who he told about the situation.  I think it can be assumed that they also believed the word they heard, as Paul illustrates in Galations 3:2, that the Spirit is recieved by believing the Word.

In Acts 2:4, we are told it was the diciples in the house who both recieved the Spirit, and began to speak in other toungs, apparently, before there were unbelievers arround to hear them.  In vs. 13, they are accused of drunken babbeling, illustrating that some of the disciples were speaking sounds unrecognizable to some of the hearers, and they knew that others were hearing the same thing they were, unrecognized "gibberish"--for, to make a statement like that to others who could understand the speech would be absurd.

The humor I see in that, is the statue is of an obese man.  Buddhism condemns obesity as gluttony,  bad karma.

In every occult religion I've seen so far, Jesus allways finds a way to illustrate the lie in it, so that, "... men are without excuse..."  (Rom 1:20)

yer silly.

 

One day, just as I was leaving for work, a couple JW's showed up on my doorstep.  For the first time in a long time, I didn't stop to talk to them, but I did ask them to return another day so we could talk.

That night on my way home, I saw what I believed to be their van, upside down in the middle of the highway.  I never saw them again.

Was that really their van?  Did they survive if it was?  Was I the last chance they had to hear the truth? I don't know.  I don't think I was "unfaithfull" to the call by not talking to them, but could I have done more?

I tend to see every opportunity to talk about Jesus, especially to the decieved, as priceless, to the degree that I seek them out, so I guess I got a bit frustrated watching those opportunities get turned away.  Even the Muslims, because their doctrine is supriseingly similar to Mormonism, and they can be shown the true Jesus with their Koran.  Though the rest of the doctrine is occultic in nature, Jesus is in their book, they just choose to ignore that part.

That said, I agree with the mission statement as BEP presented it, and I agree that it is a good one, if that is how God is leading you to guide this forum.  It also sheds a little more light on why some posts are responded to the way they are.

Carry on...



Oh...andplusalso...

Jesus said, Matthew 12:26
26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?


This does not imply that Satan does not drive out Satan, because after all, his house will not stand, will it.  Satan certainly does drive out Satan, the occult does it all the time.  It's part of the con.  The "white light" witches hate the "black" magik crafters, and vise-versa.  they are divided--for a common goal--to decieve.

Case in point:

T1, please allow me to say this you joined us in the middle of a conversation without getting all the facts, try to read and get their facts straight ...If you have taken offense than maybe you should find out what is going on from the beginning read from post one

 

Amen sister.

1Tim

I must agree with what airIam2worship just said about this thread and those involved in it.

Do you know this is true, or is it just an assumtion?

Could anyone list some of the ways we can prepare ourselves to effectively understand and battle this kind of evil?
I am not being facetious here my friends, I am always looking for ways to be more effective for Jesus.
The Bible is the very best and obvious place to begin.
My question is - is it safer to read about this stuff than it is to watch a program?
Surely if you are correct, and I have welcomed satan into my home through my TV, then he is able to set upon us through a book also.
John

Apparently, John got the same "wrong" impression about the responses to his original post as what I did, as illustrated by the request to supply other avenues of response to this real threat.  "Surely if you are correct, and I have welcomed satan into my home through my TV, then he is able to set upon us through a book also."   He had to ask, because the jist of this particular thread was , IMO, "how dare you..., you shouldn't be..., all you need to know is the Bible and nothing else..." and no alternate offered,  and much of it before any understanding of why this was being done.

I'm not taking up Johns case here.  I tend to do just what he did, but not with TV shows.  I don't like reading someone’s opinion about a cult or occult organization, I read their own material.  Yes it is dangerous to read their material, but only the Bible is the living and active Word, occult writings are not.  They are simply "rational " to the natural mind.

I will agree wholeheartedly, that all we need to know is the Bible, but is that all we need to share with others?  Yes...and no.  I'll pick on Mormonism again here for just a bit.  I can tell them what I believe the Bible says, but they believe I am deceived by Satan Because I believe only what the Bible says. (More than that, I am an apostate.)  Their doctrine says just that.  Since I know what they mean when they talk about Jesus, I know it is not the same Jesus the Bible speaks about.  When I point out that they believe the same thing the Catholic Church believes about something, I have their full attention immediately.  When I point out to them that their Article of Faith # 11, is also what witches, Buddhists,  Catholics, and occultists believe, they're listening closely to what I say.  They don't care how well I know the Bible, until I show them the parallels between Mormonism and the occult.  Only then does the possibility that they are the ones that are wrong enter their thinking.

Do I need to know that to be saved?  no.  but then again I don't need to know a trade to support my family, or work to win the respect of outsiders to be saved either.  I do need to earn a living, support my family, and win the respect of outsiders though, to be as effective a tool in the Kingdom as possible.  Knowledge of the occult--not experiential knowledge, (though some have that advantage), makes me more effective, in the calling I am led to.  And that is how John used the TV show.


I for one, would be very interested to know just what about that show he was able to use to approach his friend more effectively, if he was a mind to share it, because someday, I may face the same situation.

It is not the behavior I perceived on this thread that bugs me, but the fact that it is revealed throughout the forum to various posters. 




The glue that cements information to my mind, is dirt.  I need to get my hands dirty to remember things.  We have enough people here that know the Bible well, that I see no reason whatsoever to run off non-Christian posters to this site.  I say, put them in the debate forum and lets have at them   .  Who knows, maybe someone will say something that sticks in their craw for a few years until they deal with it--and wind up submitting to Jesus because of it.  Even if they are not convinced, the arguments that would be presented will benefit the rest of us.   Knowing ahead of time, what occult teaching is prepares the apologist to recognize flaws in a presented argument that the arguer winds up trapped by.  We defend ourselves and those willing to appeal to the Bible for truth, with the Bible, but to those who do not recognize the authority of the Bible, we need to either use their belief system to reveal the fallacies, or establish the authority of the Bible first.  In either case, a debate like that would grow all of us, especially in the field of using the Bible in defense of Christianity, which tends to be a developed skill.  We can develope it here.

I've seen a lot of intolerance on this forum, toward those with belief systems different from the established norm.  I'm  talking about the doctrine of salvation and Jesus, as the Bible defines it, as well as application.  Some here only want to know the Bible so they can support the Christian's faith, and that is a needed skill / gift.  Some are called to go to those who see no reason at all to recognize the Bible as anything more than fairy tales.  Preaching “Bible” to them tends to be useless, until  they are brought to the understanding that where they stand is sinking sand. 

There is only one Truth, and none of us on this earth are in complete ownership of that Truth.  Only Jesus is.  Together we can be more  completely immersed in it, in ever increasing measure.

It is my opinion that  intolerance was shown,  and encouraged, not to a person directly, but the philosophy that person holds true for his calling.  I saw myself included in that intolerant attitude because I too am led to understand opposing philosophies, and prepare to face them based on an understanding of where they stand, as well as an understanding of where I stand.  People who, “ only want to preach Bible…” tend to make my job harder, because I must first gain the trust of an individual, that I’m not going to shove Bible down their throat, until they are willing to hear it.

Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. 
Here, we can sharpen our selves and each other, but we need to understand the others position first, before we oppose it.

Psalm 144:1

1 Of David.
Praise be to the LORD my Rock,
who trains my hands for war,
my fingers for battle.
#

I do not want to start any arguments here, so I will refrain from responding to this thread anylonger.

You ain't starting anything John.  I've noticed this prevailing attitude all over this forum.  More from some than others, but it stinks regardless who its from.

Should pastors study demonology?

Someone should.  If the ones charged with learning won't, God tends to find someone who will. The Bible was written to people deeply involved in the occult, and I think that one of the reasons we have trouble understanding it is because we, as a society, know little or nothing about occult activity.

If the Word is enough to pull someone from a deep involvment in the occult, why wouldnt it be enough to keep someone studying about it out, that allready belongs to Jesus?

If you aren't supposed to, fine, then don't, but that does not guarantee it is wrong for someone else to.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.



.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about, because of the title of the show, not its content, it is condemned.  Remember, our job is not only to keep ourselves from being polluted by the world, but also to carry the message to others.

How many Christians have you heard make comments like,"...well the Mormons believe in Jesus too..."?  Withought a knowlege of what they actually believe, that statement though true,  could not be exposed as successful deciet, and the one makeing it may not recognize Mormonism as a fruitless deed of darknes to be avoided, nor would they realize their mormon friends needed to know the truth.

My Church is not aware of what a peace pole is, nor what a peace pole ceremony is, yet, though there are two elementary schools in my area that do them each year.  How can the dangers of them be recognized unless it is recognized that it is a witchcraft ceremony.  On the pole, in eight languages are the words, "May peace prevail on earth".  These are sentiments that most "good" people would agree with, and anyone opposing it would be labeled a hate monger, but I've read the words used in a witches book of shadows, and in Buddhism philosophy.  Now how did your opinion of the ceremony change from the beginning of this paragraph, to the end?  Oh, and the pole itself is an 8' Asherah pole, an Egyptian obelisk, the symbol of the male reproductive organ used in goddess worship (Diana of the Ephesians).

Apparently I'm not supposed to know that either, huh?  We're just supposed to look like hate mongers while opposing it?

1 Corinthians 5:9,10
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.


Paul drew a difference between those of this world and those in the Church practicing the behavior of the world.

Ephesians 5:11
11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.


Seems you all who love to misapply scripture forget this passage.  How are we to have nothing to do with fruitless deeds unless we know what they are?  How are we to expose them unless we know what they are?  Experiencing, and knowing about, are two different things.  Remember, Paul wrote these words to the Ephesians--the "headquarters", of Diana / Ashteroth / artemis / Isis / Mother Earth / goddess worship / witchcraft, and location of Diana's temple.  Paul wrote that to a people immersed in a society that ours is growing into.  Read Eze. 33.  We are supposed to be watchmen on a wall, but before we can sound an alarm, we must know what that danger looks like.

Whats wrong with this statement: "...Lord, I thank thee that I am not like other men..." (Lk 18:11)

Whats the difference between that and, " ...you should be doing the things that I do in your walk with the Lord."  IMO nothing.  Both recognize a difference, and assume superiority.  The latter also claimes authority to direct the walk of another that God ownes allready. He directs, and who is anyone to assume He did not direct anyone else to find out about the encroaching occult to inform those who remain willfully ignorant?  I am not saying that everyone should study the occult, but only those who are called to.  One of the biggest complaints non-believers have about christians, is their eagerness to reveal their ignorance.  They'll quote scripture to combat something they oppose, withought even knowing why they oppose it.  Einstine said, " Immagination is more important than education"  does anyone recognize the problem with that?  It is a poster in one of the Jr. High Schools I am in regularily.  It is witchcraft / buddhism / yoga / Diana of the Ephesians worship.  Christians are known for saying, "  I'll pray for you", but whats wrong with the sentiment, " our thoughts are with you"?  It isn't nessesarily anti-biblical--or is it?  Actually, it stems from witchcraft, where thoughts are looked at as energy, and the belief that I can direct energy your way because my thoughts are with you is occultic.

The passages you all quoted above are very nice, but John isn't practicing deamonology, he's seeking to understand what all the hubub is about so he can address it appropriately, like someone who knows what they are talking about.

I live in a large mormon populated area, and some of the kids in our church were beginning to question the validity of christianity, because their friends in high school who were mormon were so convinced of Mormonism.  These were kids raised in the church by families who taught them the bible,  but they were still kids.  After these kids talked to me, they no longer had any question about which faith was the true one.  I didn't quote bible to them because they allready knew it.  I told them about Mormonism and quoted Mormon "scripture" to them.  I could do that because I remained willingly ignorant of Mormon doctrine...no, thats not it, because I scolded everyone who tried to tell me what Mormons believed and quoted misapplied scripture at them....no thats not it either.  I could do that because I knew Mormon doctrine.  I knew it well enough that the kids recognized that, and they listened because they respected that I was addressing them with knowledge, not ignorance, with a Bible in one hand, and a Mormon Tri in the other, literally.  People don't want to hear what they should believe.  They want to make up their own minds based on real facts and evidence,  and we need to know what we're talking about well enough so we can give those arguments to them.  In Acts 17, Paul did exactly that.  He spoke to the Aeropagus with understanding of what they believed.

  1 John 4:4
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
Don't forget this one either

Now, there is nothing wrong with offering guidence, but that need can only be ascertained by asking questions as to someones motives and methods, and are they staying in the word regularily as they procede in this type investigationary study,  but I have not seen anyone ask a single question of that nature.  As Christians we only need fear taking our eyes off Jesus, and anything can do that if we let it.  If we do fear, then we're not really trusting Him, are we.

Wisdom, would have asked the question, "What was it that you learned that aided you in approaching your friend involved in this stuff."

Sorry for the tyrade guys, but I'm sick and tired of Christians makeing assumtions based on ignorance, in order to promote themselves as authorities.  I thought Jesus was the authority and Leader of our ministries?

Yeah, I think so too.  Hey, I know, lets all vote Democrat in the next Prez. election and see if we can speed it up.

Naww,  that would be too much like commiting suiscide, and I don't think He would like that much.

Problem is, you start seeing the boogey man behind every TV ad and show theme, in advertizement and school posters, basically everywhere.  One reason is because its a new thing to your mind and you're sensative to it.  Another reason is because its really there.

"Seperation of church and state" is the unofficial occult mantra of the "new age" in this country (IMO).  The only religion it applies to is Christianity.  Every other philosophy of occult religion is being force fed to us daily by  organizations like the EPA, PBS, PETA, UN, ACLU, NEA, the legislative branches of state and Federal gov't....ect.


The sky is falling...