[For All the Saints]

For All the Saints

For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
All who by faith before the world confessed,
Thy Name, O Jesus, be forever blessed.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

You were their Rock, their Fortress and their Might;
You, Lord, their Captain in the well fought fight;
You, in the darkness drear, their one true Light.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

O blest communion, fellowship divine!
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
Yet all are one within your great design.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

O may your soldiers, faithful, true and bold,
Fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
And win with them the victor’s crown of gold.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

And when the strife is fierce, the warfare long,
Steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
And hearts are brave, again, and arms are strong.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

The golden evening brightens in the west;
Soon, soon to faithful warriors comes their rest;
Sweet is the calm of paradise the blessed.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

But yet there breaks a yet more glorious day;
The saints triumphant rise in bright array;
The King of glory passes on His way.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

From earth’s wide bounds, from ocean’s farthest coast,
Through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
And singing to Father, Son and Holy Ghost:
Alleluia, Alleluia!
(William How 1823-1897)

That has always been one of my family's "songs," but after my dad died, it took on all new meaning. 

----------------------------------------------------

You gave your body to the lonely
They took your clothes
You gave up a wife and a family
You gave your ghost
To be alone with me
You went up on the tree

---

I always knew you
In your mother's arms
I have called you your name
I've an idea placed in your mind
To be better man
I've made a crown for you
Put it in your room
And when the bridegroom comes there will be noise
There will be glad
And a perfect bed
And when you write a poem
I know the words, I know the sounds
Before you write them down
And when you wear your clothes
I wear them too
I wear your shoes, and your jacket, too
I always knew you in your mother's arms
I have called you son
I've made amends between father and son
Or if you haven't one
Rest in my arms, sleep in my bed
There's a design to what I did and said.

---

When he took the three disciples
to the mountainside to pray,
his countenance was modified, his clothing was aflame.
Two men appeared: Moses and Elijah came;
they were at his side.
The prophecy, the legislation spoke of whenever he would die.

Then there came a word
of what he should accomplish on the day.
Then Peter spoke, to make of them a tabernacle place.
A cloud appeared in glory as an accolade.
They fell on the ground.
A voice arrived, the voice of God,
the face of God, covered in a cloud.

What he said to them,
the voice of God: the most beloved son.
Consider what he says to you, consider what's to come.
The prophecy was put to death,
was put to death, and so will the Son.
And keep your word, disguise the vision till the time has come.

Lost in the cloud, a voice: Have no fear! We draw near!
Lost in the cloud, a sign: Son of man! Turn your ear!
Lost in the cloud, a voice: Lamb of God! We draw near!
Lost in the cloud, a sign: Son of man! Son of God!

(The last three songs or song snippets were written and performed by Sufjan Stevens)

Some Chick tracts go beyond being harsh, though. On some topics, including Halloween, the Roman Catholic Church, and evolution to name three, he repeatedly refers to complete untruths, such as the claim that the "IHS" on Catholic communion wafers refers to Isus, Horub, and Sheb, or that the Catholic church runs a global conspiracy which gave rise to Islam and the New Age movement.

I think tracts are fine as witnessing tools, as long as we're careful about what we're handing out. Not only is it important to speak the truth in all witnessing, but it is even more important, I think, to ensure that what is given out in a tract is what we want said, because unlike in an actual conversation (which I would favour in most cases where it is possible), you cannot check back and correct someone's misinterpretation of what they've been told.

This is also where my grievance lies. 

When Christ was preaching, He could be as harsh or as gentle as He wanted, because He knew the hearts of the people He was addressing.  He knew exactly where they were coming from and exactly what they needed to hear.

We, as regular sinful human beings, do not have this power.  We cannot gauge someone's knowledge of the Bible, so throwing a Chick tract at them might not be so effective, especially if it's one of the offensive tracts mentioned by servant. 

I read the "Mark of the Lion" series.  Fantastic.  I also like "Redeeming Love" by her.  She's a powerful writer.

I still don't see how my original answers were misleading.  Any reasonable person should be able to understand what I was saying.  If you could clue me in to how I was being facetious, that'd be appreciated.

I don't believe in mincing words when witnessing either.  But I believe everything should be presented as clearly, fairly, and correctly balanced as possible.  And in my opinion, Jack Chick isn't doing this.  His ideas seem rather radical (Roman Catholics are not Christian, all Rock music is from the devil, even Christian rock, etc...)  He uses a scare tactic in trying to convert people.  He also plays into ALL types of offensive stereotypes and I just wondered why people advocate his work.

And for the record, I have seen people walking down the street with signs that say "repent or go to hell."  Carried by people passing out these tracts. 

I'm pretty surprised you couldn't distinguish my answers.  But, for the sake of clarity:

1 - The Bible in its entirety is God's Word.  I do not have my own special canon.  What right do I have to pick and choose, and how was I not clear in my previous answer?  Or did you actually expect me to give a condemned answer?  Why would you ask me this question?

2 - I already said that any tract that presents the proper distinction between law and gospel without scaring people into becoming Christian is a good tract.  As far as example goes, the "What About" series put out by the LCMS does a nice job of presenting the Gospel and different topics and areas of doctrine.

I am not understanding how my answers were not straightforward enough the first time around.

Your first question is irrelevant.  The Bible is never about what we "accept" or "like."  It's not a matter of picking and choosing, it is what it is.  Thomas Jefferson may find it beneficial to cut and paste the Bible, but I'm afraid I would find no reward in creating my own canon. 

Regarding your second question:  you must take into account the fact that I was 7 at the time.  According to what I've heard in this forum, I probably hadn't reached my age of accountability yet.      And are there any Biblical tracts that I would throw away?  Sure!  Any Biblical tract that truthfully presents the proper distinction between law and gospel without trying to scare people into becoming Christian would be a good tract, in my opinion.  I believe there are better, more effective ways of witnessing than chucking chick tracts at people.  Or yelling at them through megaphones.  Or walking around town with signs that say "REPENT OR SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL!!!!"  The audience must be taken into account, first of all.  It's important to gauge their Biblical knowledge and understanding before spouting off on them prematurely (as I've seen happen a few times by people distributing chick tracts). 

Just curious as to how Chick Tracts are received here.  I remember getting a few in my bag at halloween time and tossing them into the trash immediately after finding them amongst my sweet, delicious treats.  I've also received a few from soapbox preachers.  I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post any here (or links to them, for that matter), but if I can, perhaps I'll select a few choice tracts for discussion. 

[need]

My point isn't about political correctness.  The whole concept of being PC is silly to me.  That's not my point at all.  And I think you all know what my point is, but would rather not address it. 

Here it is, in a nutshell.  Have your way with it:

The Christian life is about witnessing and confessing Christ through our words and actions
If particular groups are focused on advancing Christian law in a governmental system where no gospel can be shown, the core of the Christian life is disguised, the wrong impression is given, and the focus is lost.
Therefore, many people will refuse to listen.

However, if Christians realized that making American "God's country" through law and legislation is a fruitless endeavor, and instead work on spreading Christ's love, peace, mercy, and true Gospel, there wouldn't be a need for this legislation.

Basically, let's hit the heart of the problem rather than just dealing with the aftermath.  And hitting the heart of the problem cannot be done with the government. 

Let it be known that I am in no way saying that Christians shouldn't let their beliefs influence their voting patterns.  I'm just saying when it comes to forcing those beliefs on other people's voting patterns, there's a slight problem.  Purity in the Church must be preserved before purity in the government.  And I see the church as losing a lot of its purity, as do a lot of people I've spoken to.  Suddenly, Christians appear self-righteous, self-serving, and  hypocritical.  It becomes a club.  What can we do to solve this?  It's not a matter of being prideful about political correctness or incorrectness, it's a matter of service, love, and truth.  And we ALL know there isn't much truth invovled with politics. 

Ok, that's all I've got.  I didn't mean to personally attack people here.  It comes off that way.  And I'm pretty positive I convinced no one, but hey...I have to give it a shot.  Thanks again. 

[Advent]

I've just got to share some of my favorites with you folks.  In fact, let's just take a journey through the Church-year:

Advent

Come O Long Expected Jesus

Come, O long expected Jesus, born to set your people free
From our fears and sins release us by your death on Calvary
Israel's strength and consolation, hope to all the earth impart
Dear desire of every nation, joy of everything longing heart

Born your people to deliver, born a child and yet a king
Born to reign in us forever, now your gracious kingdom bring
By your own eternal Spirit rule in all our hearts alone
By your all-sufficient merit raise us to your glorious throne
(Charles Wesley 1707-1788)

Christmas

Of the Father's Love Begotten

Of the Father’s love begotten, ere the worlds began to be,
He is Alpha and Omega, He the source, the ending He,
Of the things that are, that have been,
And that future years shall see, evermore and evermore!

O that birth forever blessèd, when the virgin, full of grace,
By the Holy Ghost conceiving, bare the Savior of our race;
And the Babe, the world’s Redeemer,
First revealed His sacred face, evermore and evermore!

This is He Whom seers in old time chanted of with one accord;
Whom the voices of the prophets promised in their faithful word;
Now He shines, the long expected,
Let creation praise its Lord, evermore and evermore!

Let the heights of heaven adore Him; angel hosts, His praises sing;
Powers, dominions, bow before Him, and extol our God and King!
Let no tongue on earth be silent,
Every voice in concert sing, evermore and evermore!

Christ, to you, with God the Father; and the Spirit, there shall be
Hymn and chant and high thanksgiving, and the shout of jubilee
Honor, glory, and dominion
And eternal victory, evermore and evermore!
(Aurelius Prudentius Clemens c. 348-413)

Epiphany

Songs of Thankfulness and Praise

Songs of thankfulness and praise,
Jesus, Lord, to thee we raise,
manifested by the star
to the sages from afar;
branch of royal David's stem
in thy birth at Bethlehem;
anthems be to thee addressed,
God in man made manifest.

Manifest at Jordan's stream,
Prophet, Priest and King supreme;
and at Cana, wedding guest,
in thy Godhead manifest;
manifest in power divine,
changing water into wine;
anthems be to thee addressed,
God in man made manifest.

Manifest in making whole
palsied limbs and fainting soul;
manifest in valiant fight,
quelling all the devil's might;
manifest in gracious will,
ever bringing good from ill;
anthems be to thee addressed,
God in man made manifest.

Grant us grace to see thee, Lord,
mirrored in thy holy Word;
may we imitate thee now,
and be pure, as pure art thou;
that we like to thee may be
at thy great Epiphany;
and may praise thee, ever blest,
God in man made manifest.
(Christopher Wordsworth 1807-1885)

Lent:

My Song is Love Unknown

My song is love unknown, my Savior's love to me
Love to the loveless shown that they might lovely be
But who am I that for my sake
My Lord should take frail flesh and die?

He came from his blest throne, salvation to bestow
But men made strange and none the longed-for Christ know
But, oh my friend, my friend indeed
Who at my need his life did spend

Sometimes they strew his way, and his sweet praises sing
Resounding all the day hosannas to their king
Then crucify is all their breath
And for his death they thirst and cry

Why, what hath my Lord done?  What makes this rage and spite?
He made the lame to run, he gave the blind their sight
Sweet injuries!  Yet they at these
Themselves displease and 'gainst him rise

They rise and needs will have my dear Lord made away
A murdered they save, the Prince of Life they slay
Yet cheerful he to suffering goes
That he his foes from thence might free

In life no house no home my Lord on earth might have
In death no friendly tomb but what a stranger gave
What may I say?  Heaven was his home
But mine the tomb wherein he lay

Here might I stay and sing, no story so divine
Never was love, dear King, never was grief like thine
This is my friend in whose sweet praise
I all my days could gladly spend
(Samuel Crossman c. 1624-1683)

Passion Week

Go to Dark Gethsemane

Go to dark Gethsemane, all that feel the tempter’s power;
Your Redeemer’s conflict see, watch with Him one bitter hour,
Turn not from His griefs away; learn of Jesus Christ to pray.

See Him at the judgment hall, view the Lord of life arraigned;
O the wormwood and the gall! O the pangs His soul sustained!
Shun not suffering, shame, or loss; learn of Christ to bear the cross.

Calvary’s mournful mountain climb; there, adoring at His feet,
Mark that miracle of time, God’s own sacrifice complete.
“It is finished!” hear Him cry; learn of Jesus Christ to die.

Early hasten to the tomb where they laid His breathless clay;
All is solitude and gloom. Who has taken Him away?
Christ is risen! He meets our eyes; Savior, teach us so to rise.
(James Montgomery 1771-1854)

Easter

At the Lamb's High Feast We Sing

At the Lamb’s high feast we sing
Praise to our victorious king,
Who has washed us in the tide
Flowing from his pierced side.
Alleluia!

Praise we him, whose love divine
Gives his sacred blood for wine,
Gives his body for the feast
Christ the victim, Christ the priest.
Alleluia!

Where the paschal blood is poured,
Death’s dread angel sheathes the sword;
Israel’s hosts triumphant go
Through the wave that drowns the foe.
Alleluia!

Praise we Christ, whose blood was shed,
Paschal victim, paschal bread;
With sincerity and love
Eat we manna from above.
Alleluia!

Mighty Victim from the sky,
Hell’s fierce powers beneath you lie;
You have conquered in the fight
You have brought us life and light.
Alleluia!

Now no more can death appall,
Now no more the grave enthrall;
You have opened paradise,
And your saints in you shall rise.
Alleluia!

Easter triumph, Easter joy!
This alone can sin destroy;
From sin’s power, Lord, set us free,
Newborn souls in you to be.
Alleluia!

Father, who the crown shall give,
Savior, by whose death we live,
Spirit, guide through all our days;
Three in One, Your name we praise.
Alleluia!
(office hymn, 17th century)

Pentecost

Holy Spirit, Ever Dwelling

Holy Spirit, ever dwelling
in the holiest realms of light
Holy Spirit, ever brooding
o'er a world of gloom and blight
Holy Spirit, ever raising
earthbound souls to glory high
Living, life-imparting Spirit
you we praise and magnify.

Holy Spirit, ever breathing
on the church the breath of life
Holy Spirit, ever striving
through you people's ceaseless strife
Holy Spirit, ever forming
in the church the mind of Christ
In our worship we will praise you
for your fruit and gifts unpriced.

Holy Spirit, ever working
through the church's ministry
Quickening, strengthening, and absolving
setting captive sinners free
Holy Spirit, ever binding
age to age and soul to soul
In community unending
you we worship and extol.
(Timothy Raes 1874-1939)

All Saint's Day

For All the Saints

For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
All who by faith before the world confessed,
Thy Name, O Jesus, be forever blessed.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

You were their Rock, their Fortress and their Might;
You, Lord, their Captain in the well fought fight;
You, in the darkness drear, their one true Light.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

O blest communion, fellowship divine!
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
Yet all are one within your great design.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

O may your soldiers, faithful, true and bold,
Fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
And win with them the victor’s crown of gold.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

And when the strife is fierce, the warfare long,
Steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
And hearts are brave, again, and arms are strong.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

The golden evening brightens in the west;
Soon, soon to faithful warriors comes their rest;
Sweet is the calm of paradise the blessed.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

But yet there breaks a yet more glorious day;
The saints triumphant rise in bright array;
The King of glory passes on His way.
Alleluia, Alleluia!

From earth’s wide bounds, from ocean’s farthest coast,
Through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
And singing to Father, Son and Holy Ghost:
Alleluia, Alleluia!
(William How 1823-1897)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I could probably go a few pages more with hymns...the other day I had someone tell me that the words of hymns are not "relevant" anymore.  I asked him to explain how so.  I never got a good answer.  The Lutheran church is all about music, and I must say, growing up with its hymnody tradition has been a huge blessing.  Hope you all enjoyed your brief tour through the church-year.   

I'm quite aware that Scripture condemns homosexuality, but you'll have better luck witnessing to someone with homosexual tendencies by talking with him or her on a first hand basis than legislating him or her from Washington.

And that example is pretty much the core of what I'm trying to say:  forcing Christianity into politics is harming the Church because its true mission and purpose is disguised.  "Christianity" becomes some sort of hate-monging machine that insists its right without giving any good reason why.  And that is bad for the Church.  And if you can't see this, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt to leave the safety of these forums every once in awhile and talk to people that you would consider the "Biblical outcasts."  Without yelling or accusing or condeming, if possible. 

Beating a dead horse, maybe.  Or taking my point of view out for one last spin?  Either way, I'm grateful that you've all responded to thoughtfully and respectfully to my posts.  Thank you.

[James Madison:]

Well, I’m back for part 2.  You didn’t think I’d leave forever, did you?  Finals week will do that to you

Ok, regarding “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord”:

Now tell me honestly, do you believe that this verse is actually referring to a system of politics and legislation, or the actual people who make up the nation?  I’d say the latter, and I think that would make more sense in Biblical context, if you read the rest of the verse:  “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance.”  This either refers to the Jewish nation (which WAS a theocracy, not meaning WE should be) or the new “nation” of all believers.  Since it’s an Old Testament verse, I’d lean towards the first.

Anyway, rules and laws can’t make any group of people the Lord’s.  Even if they’re forced to obey, their hearts will be even more resentful because they won’t understand.

Government can’t change the minds of people, unless it’s some sort of brain-washing, despotic government.  Therefore, I don’t really understand why you’re so insistent on having your policies apply to an entire country.  What would God rather see:  a group of people who are forced to follow his rules buy really hate him, or a group of people who gladly follow his laws out of joyful and loving obedience?  Once again, it’s the latter, but you’re gunning for the first option.  Which doesn’t make sense, because how can anybody know the full extent of God’s person through the law? 

And on the premise of America originally being a Christian nation…you must not have read a good deal of the quotes I posted earlier thoroughly, so I’ll repost a few and add some new ones.  I hope you take time to digest them:

James Madison:

“I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others.” (Letter Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832).

“To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself” (Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811).”  [notice that word, “purity”)

Thomas Jefferson:

“The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).”

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes”

“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor.”

Thomas Jefferson was no Christian.  I’m sure you’re also aware of the fact that Jefferson fabricated his OWN version of the Bible, void of all references to miracles and strange supernatural happenings.

Treaty of Tripoli:

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” (ratified during John Adams presidency)

John Adams:

It doesn’t sound as if Mr. Adams was so keen on enforcing Christian morals in legislation:  “We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”

Benjamin Franklin:

Think how great a proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc'd Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security."

Thomas Paine:

“As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.”

“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most dishonorable belief against the character of the Divinity, the most destructive to morality and the peace and happiness of man, that ever was propagated since man began to exist.”

“…The adulterous connection of church and state.”

Politics, are by nature, shady, sneaky, and full of fabrications.  Maybe Christianity would do some good for politics, but WHY would you want to subject Christianity to such measures?  We cannot protect the Church from politics when they’re so closely related and involved.  If the two are combined, it benefits no one.  Government is for now.  Christianity is for eternity.  They are two different realms.  They operate on two different systems. 

Perhaps Christianity could do some good for government, but not without losing some of its integrity, doctrine, and energy.  Evangelicals are so concerned about turning America into a “Christian” nation again that they’re forgetting about the Americans.  I see “Christians” picketing on college campuses with signs portraying dead fetuses.  I see “Christians” blowing up planned parenthood clinics.  I see “Christians” screaming hateful things at homosexuals and protesting against their marriages.  I see smug and self-righteous “Christians” on TV, in the newspaper, and especially in the Republican party.  What a good example of Christ’s love they are. 

Of course, I cannot convict all Evangelicals or all Republicans, because they are not all radical zealots.  But these are the things that happen when religion and politics get mixed, and its best just to leave them separate.  The Christian has a very serious job to do, and this is his sole responsibility. 

 "What little effort it takes - a friendly nod at a stranger on the street, giving change to the vagabond, saying hello or goodbye, opening doors, keeping our mouths shut. In the small things, the day-to-day gestures, the normal business of the day, we do the great work of the kingdom, which is to welcome each unlikely individual into the fold, one person at a time." – Sufjan Stevens

Why worry about whether or not homosexuals are getting married when there are people out there that need to hear the Gospel? 

[Thomas Jefferson]

Apparently there was a difference in opinion among the founding fathers:

Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence -

"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution"

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."

George Washington, the "father of our nation"

"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." As he told a Mennonite minister who sought refuge in the United States after the Revolution: "I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong...." He was, as John Bell pointed out in 1779, "a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another."

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."

John Adams, one of the largest proponents of American Independence and the beginning of a new nation

"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and Dogmatism cannot confine it."

Benjamin Franklin, enough said

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, not so much to secure Religion itself, as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense"

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?"

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"...The adulterous connection of church and state."

--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps I don't agree with these men's outlook on Christianity, but I don't need to.  They're legislators, not clergy.  They run the government, not the church.  And these are two very separate entities.  My point is, these men simply did not believe a theocracy, or a "Christian nation," was a feasible idea.  Nor they many of them outright believe Christianity in the first place.  And these men are the ones responsible for getting America's government going. 

And there's a lot more where those quotes came from.

AMEN to that PR,

What I left out of my originall post was......do I think we should use legilation.......in this Ccountry......Yep.

things have gotten so far out of hand and too many don't realize that this country was founded by belief.

If I am not mistaken all ten of Gods commandments are represented in laws in our country....although some have become rather diluted lately.

We need to act as Christians, love them into the kingdom.......sometimes love is tough. Legislation is all some people will succome too and they will resent us for it. Love them all the same.

If we're using legislation to try to turn people into Christians, then we're failing miserably.  The Gospel is the only thing that can make Christians.  Legislation is law and law only condemns. 

Once again, I don't deny that Christianity may be good for the state if it's kept in it's pure form, but the state is bad for Christianity and the two shouldn't be mixed.  They are two very separate things, and if we start to confuse them, then statements like the ones made above come out.  Just because we have the power to make gays NOT get married, how is that going to further the kingdom of God?  Those gays that were prevented from being married sure aren't going to start loving Christianity anytime soon.  I'm not an advocate of homosexual marriage, but take our role as Christians and put ourselves in their shoes. 

The words can be used in an apocalyptical fashion

akokalupsis (apokalupsis) - a certain disclosure of the truth, manifestation, or appearance
 ---- It can be used for "Revelation"

telos - a completion of something, moving towards the end.  Everything in creation moves toward the end which God intended it to.

harpazo - to seize, carry away, pluck snatch (interestingly used in John 10:20 - "My Father who has given them [His sheep] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand"...His Father gave them to Him)


I never suggested that what is said in Revelation isn't truth, I've suggested that it is being interpreted wrongly. 

Will you tell me about the rapture now?  The chain of events, etc...

"With the Augsburg Confession (Art. XVII) we reject every type of millennialism, or Chiliasm, the opinions that Christ will return visibly to this earth a thousand years before the end of the world and establish a dominion of the Church over the world; or that before the end of the world the Church is to enjoy a season of special prosperity; or that before a general resurrection on Judgment Day a number of departed Christians or martyrs are to be raised again to reign in glory in this world; or that before the end of the world a universal conversion of the Jewish nation (of Israel according to the flesh) will take place.

Over against this, Scripture clearly teaches, and we teach accordingly, that the kingdom of Christ on earth will remain under the cross until the end of the world, Act 14:22; John 16:33; 18:36; Luke 9:23; 14:27; 17:20-37; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 12:28; Luke 18:8; that the second visible coming of the Lord will be His final advent, His coming to judge the quick and the dead, Matt. 24:29, 30; 25:31; 2 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 9:26-28; that there will be but one resurrection of the dead, John 5:28; 6:39, 40; that the time of the Last Day is, and will remain, unknown, Matt. 24:42; 25:13; Mark 13:32, 37; Acts 1:7, which would not be the case if the Last Day were to come a thousand years after the beginning of a millennium; and that there will be no general conversion, a conversion en masse, of the Jewish nation, Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor. 3:14; Rom. 11:25; 1 Thess. 2:16.

According to these clear passages of Scripture we reject the whole of Millennialism, since it not only contradicts Scripture, but also engenders a false conception of the kingdom of Christ, turns the hope of Christians upon earthly goals, 1 Cor. 15:19; Col. 3:2, and leads them to look upon the Bible as an obscure book."

Would any of you care to explain to me exactly what the rapture is all about?  I think I know, but I want to make sure all my details are correct.