I have a hypothetical question myself. 

If you're flying in your canoe, and your left front tire goes flat, how many pancakes does it take to shingle a dog house?  Give up?  None!  Because there are no bones in ice cream!   

By the way, would the canoe go to canoe heaven or people heaven?

By the way, don't swear.  Just let your yes be yes and no be no.

If you assume that I am taking credit for my salvation, then you are judging my heart and the conditions for which I accepted Christ.

I know we have to believe! 

Ruth, going off of your other posts, you would now be guilty of works.  No one ever denied where the power comes from.  All you have heard has been along the lines of "acknowledgement of God's power to save us."  This goes to show that one hears what one chooses to hear. 

From the get go, you decided that all those who said they accepted Jesus, were taking credit for their salvation.  It was addressed and expressed in a dozen different ways, you disagree with all of them.  You have judged the hearts of those here and have NOT assumed the best.  No one is trying to steal God's glory.  It is not your stance that God's power saves us, that I disagree with.  It's your stance that by acknowledging that power, I am guilty of works, that I disagree with.

[As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord]

Good morning all.  I see you all had quite a discussion last night.  I confess I grew frustrated and tired of this one a long time ago.  I have debated with whether I should post or not, as I can tell that no amount of scripture or direct answers will appease those who do not want to be who do not want to be.

Ruth, please know that what I say is motivated by compassion and especially love for God's word and people.  You speak about child like faith.  The Lord also said about children "suffer not the little ones to come unto me."  Your views, whether you know it or not, are a stumbling block for those who are seeking and who are not familiar with the word of God.  Any doctrine that stops short of accepting Jesus Christ is, very bluntly,  an evil one, no matter how righteous or selfless we make it sound. 

Colossians Chp2

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

We need to receive it.  Plain and simple.  Was Paul saying that they received salvation through works?  C'mon.  Enough is enough. 

Acts 16 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

The man or woman who accepts Jesus, accepts also the fact that only Jesus can save them.  Was Paul suggesting to the Jailer that believing in Jesus Christ was a work?  And this was how he would be saved?  Absolutely not.  God never lies, never contradicts Himself.  Through His death on the cross, Jesus bridged the gap between God and man.  We still have to decide whether we want to cross it.

About the childrens faith.  Children have the same questions adults have.  "How do we know the bible is real?  Why is Jesus the only way?"  The difference is that when a child or most children receive the answer, they say "Oh...ok", and then the discussion is closed and they believe it.  They feel no need to voice their opinion or sound intelligent with their many words, they simply accept it(again, most).  This is the kind of faith Jesus meant when he compared us to children.  I admit, I lost you on your interpretation of that scripture. 

By the way, Mods hurrying to answer your post isn't necessarily a good thing.  When they see doctrine contrary to the word of God, they MUST be there to take a stand....if not for your sake, then for the sake of those who might read it and be confused by it.

Hi guys.  My church also does not do infant baptism as we believe it must be a personal choice.  Also, the thought that an infant won't be protected or assured salvation by God unless they are baptized goes against the very nature of God.  Again, I am talking about infants who have not yet reached the age of accountability. 

We do full immersion baptism at a river not far from our church.  We love it.  There's barbeque and worship and all that stuff.  The only thing I would say airIam2worship, is that I tend to stay away from making statements like "the only true way" when it pertains to anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ.  It makes a statement that leans towards legalism and focuses on the outward instead of the inward.

I once baptized a child at a kids camp who loved Jesus with all his heart and wanted everyone to know that he belonged to Him but he was afraid of getting in the river.  Should we have told him God would not honor his decision?  I grabbed a couple of gallons of water and baptized that kid!!  And I believe God was pleased with that young boy.  Also, I have known of people on their death beds who give their lives to the Lord and ask to be baptized.  Not as a means to salvation but in a response to salvation.  And they too have been sprinkled with the waters of baptism.

Praise God that He will not allow Himself to be placed in a box, and that He looks at the heart of men.

Hi Glennd,

I'm not entirely sure how you came to that conclusion with what was written but if I personally said something you misunderstood, then let me clarify.  Leaving Osteen completely out of this one, I will only address the prosperity movement.  I have heard false teachers say that God WANTS you to be rich.  Some even go so far as to say that if you aren’t, the Lord isn’t blessing you because you are in sin.  They scream “100 fold!  100 fold!”. 

The problem is that in every church that belongs to the prosperity movement, money is always part of the message.  As though Christ died to make you rich, not to save you from your sins.  They want you to live by faith, and give all you have.  By the way, why is it that the Pastor of the church is the only one of the congregation who is not required to live by faith??  Why is it that the nicest car in the parking lot belongs to the pastor, who is supposed to be the people’s servant?  If they truly believed their message, then why wouldn’t the church tithe to the people, so that the Lord would return their money 100 fold?

I personally have not watched enough Osteen to know whether he is a prosperity teacher.  To me, he is a minister of a watered down version of the gospel.  He tells the people what they want to hear, mainly: live right, pay your taxes, keep your lawn mowed, say your prayers at night, and you’ll get into heaven.  He never says “your sin separates you from God and if you choose to live your life separate from Christ, then God will honor that decision in eternity.”

I know many people whom the Lord has blessed greatly and they are awesome Christians.  The Lord didn’t tell the rich young ruler to give all he had because being rich was bad, He told him to give all he had because He knew that it was the one thing that kept him from following the Lord entirely.  The Lord wants you to get rid of whatever comes before Him.  Had the rich young ruler been a woman living in adultery sitting by a well, the Lord would have pointed that out instead. 

I have heard prosperity teachers twist scripture to fit their messages.  They quote scripture out of context and pull several verses from different books to make a complete thought.  They take 4 or 5 offerings a service and measure the faith of the people by how much money they give, not how faithfully they serve the Lord.  Worst of all, they cause young Christians, who aren’t yet familiar with what the word says, to stumble.  Bottom line…

We need to praise God for what he has already done for us, not for what he might do for us in the future.  If God never did anything for you again, glennd, would what he did on the cross be enough to follow Him, worship Him, live your life for Him?  Or does one need the promise of wealth  to do that?

Amen Evangelist!

You said it perfectly.  I believe in my heart that many times men mistake a big church (Joel's is the biggest in America) as one that is being blessed by God.  Is it a work of God or of men???  Remember that the "church" of the golden calf was a pretty big one too.

Hi So Says I,

First let me say that if Joel Osteen is half as nice as he seems on TV, then he is about 10 times nicer than I am.  He seems like a great guy and from the surface, it looks like the Lord is blessing his ministry.  However, I agree with your concerns.  One can't help but to think that Joel is heading up what some would call a seeker sensitive church.  Joel is an expert at encouraging people, as he has said from time to time "You've had a tough week, you don't want to come here and get more depressed, you need encouragement."

The problem with that can be compared to "too much candy, not enough meat and veggies".

I very rarely hear the gospel in his messages.  I don't hear him speak about sin.  I hear a lot of motivational speaking.   I do believe that Joel's messages at least sparks an interest in God that some wouldn't necessarily be open to had they heard it anywhere else.  I know many nonbelievers who say to me "no, I don't go to church, but sometimes I listen to that guy on TV, Joel something....I like him."  I think they like him because there is no conviction in his messages, and therefore no need for change. 

I believe that we all need some encouragement, but what good does encouragement here on earth mean if I'm dying and going to hell?  "one charge I give you", Paul told Timothy, "preach the word."  Is Joel doing that?  I would say that his message and the message of those who do not specifically call out a need for Jesus Christ is incomplete. 

Hope no one is offended, I promise to be open to all opinions as you have been open to mine.

Thanks again guys.  Nice to be here.  Maria, I did go to the different threads and purposely went to the posts of those marked moderator and took note of how they responded. I am familiar with you as well Tom, and your welcoming post is greatly appreciated.

Louie

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Thank you both for being so welcoming.  It's a great site!

Hello, this is my first post and thought it would be appropriate if I introduced myself.  My handle is Lou, but you can call me Louie or Luis or whatever.  I'm not bothered by any.  I would like to say DreamWeaver that I have read a lot of your posts as well as Pastor Roger's posts and have to tell you that I enjoy them immensely because I see sound doctrine as well as a shepard's heart to protect the sheep.  Neither of you have ever watered down the gospel nor have you added anything to the gospel.  So thanks.

Pius, I have read your posts as well and hope that you consider the replys you have received with an open heart.  Like you, I grew up catholic.  Sign of the cross passing a church, no meat on Fridays, prayed the rosary, the works.  One day, in an attempt to educate those who would say my beliefs were wrong, I picked up the bible and began to read it.  Pius, this is what I urge you to do.  Open the word of God and through it He will speak to you.

Pray before you read.  Do not harden your heart.  Go into it with an honest heart.  When I read it the first time I prayed "Some say this about you, others say something else.  I don't know who you are but I want to.  So whoever this book says you are, that's the Jesus I'm going to follow."  It will change your life, and regarding your religion, you will be amazed at what the word of God has to say about it.

Remember as you read, that God cannot contradict himself, nor has He ever.  He will not say one thing in His word and then give a man authority to contradict it.  It is a wicked and uncaring god who seeks to confuse his children.  And that just ain't our God.   Good luck in your search for the truth.  I will be praying for you.

I know it doesn't sound like I addressed your original question, but I think I know where you were going with it, and chose to address that instead.  God Bless.

Louie