[1 Corinthians 6:19]

Why would you mar the temple, of God with a tatoo? Are we not told. 1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own,
To me this means after becoming a Christian we are not to mar, our bodies as they are the temple of God.

I addressed how this scripture was taken out of context earlier.  Please read the surrounding passages and you will find it is referring to sexual immorality.

Back to Allinall  (by the way, I was not arguing with Allinall, forgive me if it seemed that way.  I was simply pointing out the other side to be considered)  :

Believe it or not, my friend, you've just proven my point!     Part of the world would relate very well to a believer having a cross tattoo.  Another part, would not.  Part of the body of believers each of us would belong to would react positively to such a tattoo.  Other parts, would not, and in fact, may view that as complete and utter sin.  Would it be?  Scripturally, I don't see that it would be.  It would be "Lawful." But, if those who don't see it that way are harmed by it...why would I want to have one?  I have such members in my local assembly.  I have others that would think it was great!  But...(my paraphrase) "if eating meat causes my brother to offend, I will eat no meat."  I think the key here is the association of which we are speaking.  The negative connotation goes without saying where conservative brethren are concerned.

There are times when we must protect our bretheren, such as in 1 Corinthians 10:23-33, and there are are times when we must teach our brethren, such as Matthew 12: 1-14, and 15:1-20.  It is in the second passage that we also find a cross reference to Isaiah 29:13: 

These people honor me with my lips, but their hearts are far from me.  They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men

 

Now, bronzesnake spoke of his tattoo, yet so many people have replied with encouragemnet, saying that it is his spirit that is important, not his appearance nor his past....  If you ask me, John is a living testament to this truth! 

I guess what I am trying to say is it is up to God.  If God says, "Get a tattoo, because I can use it for my glory,"  then get a tattoo.  However, if God says, "Do not get a tattoo; it will not be for my glory," then do not get a tattoo.  It is that simple. 

"So whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the Glory of God."  1 Corinthians 10:31

I ask again,  Can a tattoo be for the glory of God?   Let us say Mister Rogers suddenly got his arms exposed and it caused his entire parish to stumble.  However, because of Mister Roger's spirit, he is able to pick them back up, which also causes his parish to grow so they will not stumble the next time they see a tattoo.

If we see a christian getting a tattoo and it causes us to stumble, it is us who is at fault, because we have forsaken God's truth for our own misdirection.  As Paul said,

"...the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours.  For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?  If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denouncedbecause of something I thank God for?"

    Think about it, did Jesus rebuke the disciples when they were caught eating with unwashed hands, or did he rebuke the pharisees who brought it up?  What would Jesus say to me if I pointed at a man with a tattoo and said "That man is wrong because he will cause others to stumble?" 

It is up to me to ensure I do not stumble, and to do that I must immerse myself in truth.  Yes, Paul will refuse food for my sake, and we all should do likewise.  However, when we find ourselves on the other side, saying things like "No Christian should ever get a tattoo," then it is ourselves we are putting in danger.

My only concern about this material being in the churches is that it gets found by children or those visiting that have not found Christ as their Saviour. Those of us that are solid Christians need to be on the look out for this garbage and place it where it belongs  .......   in the garbage.

Agreed!  I have sent an e-mail to everyone I know so that they may be watchful for this and hopefully forward it to others.  I'm actually glad Flemming made a public statement; had not his pride been so great, we may not have known. 

"Be self controlled and alert.  Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.  Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings."
1 Peter 5:8-9

First of all, ditto what Bronzesnake said. 

The quotes from Allinall:

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.  But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?  If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.  Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- even as I try to please everybody in every way.  For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
 1 Corinthains 10:23-33

"Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good?  But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed.  "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." but in your hearts always set apart Christ as Lord.  Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.  But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
1 Peter 3:13-16

Now, lets be honest, If someone gets a tattoo of a cross, what will the world associate that person with?  Or the example bronzesnake gave; a person who has a heart with his wife and children's name on it.  What will the world associate that person with?  It seems to me those things would invoke positive connotations. 

Even if they do invoke the negative, that associations should be quickly dispelled by our actions of love, anyway.   For example, if I am reading the Bible in public, that carries the risk of the world labeling me as hypocritical and self-righteous.  We all get pushed into that association from the world simply by going to church! 

If you ask me, it is summed up in this: 

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
1 Corinthians 10:31

Now, perhaps the question is; "Can a tattoo be for the glory of God?"

Not sure what Flemming thinks he's accomplishing...  I mean, he's wasting his time and money on planting this stuff in churches, and all the churches have to do is throw the stuff in the garbage.  And intentionally using the number 666... what is he, in junior high?  (no offense to junior highschoolers)     

Okay, I have to admit I was curious as to how the movie actually became a best seller, so I looked it up on Amazon and found these comments: 

Imagine watching a home movie thrown together by an angry adolescent who was kicked out of a Christian high school for smoking pot and wants to get back at the principal by making a documentary trashing Christianity and, especially, Christians. That's about the level of discourse you will find in this movie.

As a hint to how bad this movie is, it begins by interviewing a number of Christians and marveling at how happy they all are. Then the narrator ominously states, "But not all Christians are happy." It then shows us pictures of four or five "unhappy Christians", the first of whom is . . . Charles Manson! At that point (about 1 minute into the film), the movie lost any credibility. And, in all honestly, it never gets much better.

Tom Wolfe said that an intellectual is someone with expertise in one area who speaks out in another, and this would certainly apply to atheist zoologist Richard Dawkins who is featured as an authority in this film about Jesus Christ.

This film takes aim squarely at the ordinary believing-but-ignorant Christian on the street. It makes no attempt to fight toe-to-toe with any heavyweight academic theologians.

Brian packs this short film with a ton of info. I loved it. As a long self proclaimed athiest myself, it was great to have so much more information to solidify my beliefs.
However, therein lies the problem. Brian, the filmmaker, doesn't leave the conclusion to the audience to decide. He drills his opinion into the audiences' head, much like the Christians did to him. Sad. He is clearly pretty angry for what was done to him (with good cause - don't get me wrong) but he was more interested in lashing out than having a sincere debate with the experts in their field.

(obviously this one is from an atheist =-)


Of course most of the reviews praise the film to no end, but most of them seem to be what Jesus referred to as rocky soil... or in other words, the choir that Flemming was preaching to. 

Anyway, I think of Flemming as a little man who is easily ignored.  As for the people who are somehow taken in by his teaching, I pray God will help them find their way to someone who can show them real love and truth.   

In an "unrelated" story, Dan Brown has begun work on his new book,  What a Friend I Have in Judas...."

 

My favorite quote: 

"The manuscript tells us nothing about the historical Jesus or the historical Judas," said Ben Witherington III, professor of New Testament interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Ky. "It tells us a lot about a group that were labeled heretics in their own day."

Another thing that we need to take into consideration on this as Christians.
1Co 8:9  But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

That is a good point. 

A very good story.  I'd prefer stories like this are the ones that get the national attention from the press instead of some of the ones that do...

First of all, this is the entire, cut and pasted definition of tselem: 

From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol:—image, vain shew.

Take special note of the word figuratively.  Also, the word idol does not denote physical likeness, merely representation or symbol.

Second, Gen 1:26 is referring to both the physical and the spiritual creation of man, correct? 

Third, when we are born again, wouldn't we be a lot like Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? 

Fourth, when we go to heaven, we leave our bodies behind to decay and rot. 

Now, upon further study, I will concede man was also made in the physical image of God.  The word likeness: 

From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like:—fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

However, is it our physical body that is the temple, or is it the spiritual?  Is it the physical body that should be free from impurities, or the spiritual? 

"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out the body?  But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things make a man unclean.  For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.  These are what make a man unclean; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean."  Matthew 15:17-20

Does a tattoo make a man unclean?  I realize a tattoo is permantent while food is temporary, but so is the body temporary and the spirit eternal.  Does a tattoo dishonor God, or is it evil thoughts that dishonor God?  There was the question, "Would God want His handy work messed with and His temples decorated in such a manner?"  Is it the tattoos that decorate the temple, or is it the evil thoughts? 

I guess the question I'm asking, does a tattoo in itself cause us to stumble?

As Jean-Pierre Lehmann argues, monotheistic religions have caused much turmoil throughout history

This is a popular view, I've noticed.  Has anyone read Rodney Stark's books?  He likes to point out all the good stuff monotheism has brought about.

Jones found intelligent design failed as a scientific theory because it can't be tested.

Wouldn't that mean evolution would fail as a scientific theory as well? 

"It really should just be called God theory."

So for evolution, it really should just be called "man theory."  God theory vs. man theory.... I think that sets it about right.   

[which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.]

The truth is that our bodies are made in the likeness of God. We are the temple of God. Now the question to answer is "Would God want His handy work messed with and His temples decorated in such a manner?"

Erm, when it says man was made in God's image and likeness, does that mean physical image and likeness? 

Once again, I don't find the scripture to support that.  I do, however, find support that likeness is referring to righteous and holiness:  "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Ephesians 4:24

There is another reference to knowledge in Colossians 3:5-10:  "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

Also, when we are told we will be conformed to the likeness of Jesus in Romans 8:29, is that referring to physical likeness?

If there is scripture that shows I am misinterpreting these passages, please let me know. 

now if a Christian gets tattooed after he is reborn, and is repentant, God is merciful and quick to forgive.

Um, I'm still not finding scriptural support that tattoos are sinful (unless, of course the tatoo happens to be of a naked lady or an idol, or something like that).   

Don't get me wrong; I don't have tattoos, either, nor do I have any plans on getting tattooed, I just think we need to stick to truth. 

There's an orginization out there who's entire goal is to convince all males to get their tubes tied.  That way, they won't have children and the human race will go extinct to save the Earth.   

I just want to know...  WHAT WILL MY KITTY CAT DO WHEN I'M NOT THERE TO CHANGE HIS LITTER BOX?!? 

Ha ha, mybe he'll eat all the lizards the scientist is trying to save   

Seriously, though, the very fathers of science were Christian, and began their study of the world in appreciation of God, not in opposition... when did science lose its way? 

Man, now I have that chant stuck in my head.   

Not sure if anyone's brought this up yet, but I'm sure the Gnostic teachings that were in the book will probably be promoted by the movie as well.  Here is a blog that has a lot of information. http://www.aomin.org/tdvc.html

It is mostly about the history of the early church, and dispelling claims the book made about the Bible being altered to fit man's agenda. It is a bit of a long read, though, so for anyone who is interested but doesn't have the time, here is a briefer synopsis without as much info: http://www.contenderministries.org/discrepancies/davincicode.php

Also, a book review which exposes a lot of the sources which Dan Brown used. http://www.crisismagazine.com/september2003/feature1.htm


I know I've had some questions from people already. Also, i'm sure a lot more people will be picking up Holy Blood, Holy Grail with the recent publicity of the lawsuits.   Why can't people just stick to scripture? 

Personally, though, when it comes to people questioning the authenticity of the Bible, I say, "Look, you either have faith or you don't.  If God was going to put His living word down on earth, I think he's powerful enough to ensure it wouldn't get corrupted."  I've been down that road myself, and I know once I let just a trickle of doubt come through, it turns into a flood.