For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Titus 2:11. 

     By disobeying the commands of God, man fell under the condemnation of His law.
This fall called for the grace of God to appear in behalf of sinners.
We should never have learned the meaning of this word "grace" had we not fallen.

God loves the sinless angels, who do His service, and are obedient to all His commands; but He does not give them grace.
These heavenly beings know naught of grace; they have never needed it; for they have never sinned.

Grace is an attribute of God shown to undeserving human beings.
We did not seek after it, but it was sent in search of us.
God rejoices to bestow this grace upon every one who hungers for it.
To every one He presents terms of mercy, not because we are worthy, but because we are so utterly unworthy. Our need is the qualification which gives us the assurance that we shall receive this gift. 

     But God does not use His grace to make His law of none effect, or to take the place of His law. . . . God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith.

By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles through the power of the grace of Christ; and by rendering pure, whole-hearted obedience to God's law, we witness before the universe of heaven, and before an apostate world that is making void the law of God, to the power of redemption. 

     Not because we first loved Him, does God love us; but "while we were yet sinners" (Rom. 5: Christ died for us, making full and abundant provision for our redemption.
Although by our disobedience we have merited God's displeasure and condemnation, He has not forsaken us; He has not left us to grapple with the power of the enemy in our own finite strength.
Heavenly angels fight our battles for us; and co-operating with them, we may be victorious over the powers of evil.
Trusting in Christ as our personal Saviour, we may be "more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Rom. 8:37).

We can keep all 10 commandments,  just as Jesus Christ did....through the power which is called grace, (Romans 1:5).

 

  The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.

@ Thessalonians 2:1-3.....tells us that the anti-christ will be revealed before Christ gathers his people, when he comes again.

  As I said in my previous post:
<<  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
 
 

How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?

Because Revelation 20:4,5 ...says that the people who would not worship the Beast or receive it's mark were beheaded...and they came up in the first resurrection.

 

This is starting to look like another thread on the board.  I wont go into this, but I will simply ask, do you believe observing the law brings one to salvation?  I ask because maybe I misunderstood you.

Grace and Peace!

The true Christian understands that we keep all 10 commandments...because we love Jesus Christ.
"IF...you love me...keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

The person who is not truely converted ..will reject at least one of God's commandments, (Romans 8:7).
And usually, it is the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), they reject, because it identifies who the creator is.


The true Christian understands that God set up the 7th day Sabbath as 'the sign' between God and a person who truely follows Jesus Christ.

as the translation of living saints is imminent.

The believer's JUDGMENT is differewnt from the wicked's judgment as there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ. (Romans 8:1,2  et al)

Yes, this is true.
 However....how many people who attend Sunday worship services follow Christ ?
Christ set up the 7th day Sabbath, as a sign, as to his true followers are, (Ezekiel 20:12,20).
There is ..no condemnation...to those who obey what he said to do.
"IF...you love me...keep 'my' commandments", (John 14:15).

Jesus also warns people:  "BUT IN VAIN...do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men", (Matthew 15:3,9).

Since there is no command from God, anywher,e in all the Bible, about replacing Sunday for God's Holy Sabbath day.....

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!   :)

The Crusader

IF...you believe the Bible.
It says other things must happen first.

The "Mark of the Beast" scenerio comes 'before' anyone is taken to heaven.
 (Understand Revelation 20:4,5).

Yes, God set up the 7th day Sabbath as a sign as to who his true followers are.
"And hallow my Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between me and you.....that you...may know...that I AM the LORD your God", (Ezekiel 20:20).

People who do not know their Bible will say: "God was talking to the Jews ".

They forget...or ignore the fact, the God set up the 7th day Sabbath,  2300 years ...'BEFORE' ...there ever was an Israelite (Jew) ..in Genesis 2:2,3.

God wants us to rest on the sabbeth day and to keep it holy.  I don't see why worshiping Him on Sunday is wrong.  Doesn't He want us to worship Him everyday. Keep the sabbth day holy, wouldn't we still be doing this if we choose to worship God on this day?

Jesus healed on the sabbeth day, He was doing that for others.  The decipels were shocked when He did this.

Sunday worship is for God, it isn't for us, so why is it wrong to give God praise on Sunday?

It is not wrong to worship God everyday.
It is a matter of obeying God or Satan.

In Daniel 7:25 we read: "Think to change times and Laws".

 This is one of the marks of Anti-Christian powers at work.
Some Anti-Christian power would attempt to change the Law of God ...that deals with time.

Of all the 10 commandments of God....only the 4th commandment, deals with time.
"REMEMBER...the Sabbath 'day'...to keep 'it' Holy, (Exodus 20:8-11).
God knew what was to be attempted by Satan....and so he said the word: 'Remember' ...in front of this very commandment.

Satan ...said:  NO !
I will set up another day in place of what God has said.
Daniel 7:25 said that this would happen...and so it has.
Anyone who knows their Bible knows that there is no such thing, as a command from God, to hold worship services on Sunday, the 1st day of the week.


Romans 6:16 ...tells us that obedience is everything !

So, the question becomes: "Will I obey Christ or Satan.

  Seraph, in post #12:
<< #19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.

The wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming, (2 Thess. 2:8).

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.

?

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.

True, the Judgment is in heaven, (Revelation 22:11,12).

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming

Yes, the Tribulation comes first ...then Christ's coming, (Matthew 24:29-31).
 >>

 The reason that the "Rapture" has no relation, no effect, on gentiles, Israel, evil, and judgment is that Biblically there is no such concept. Likewise, there are no signs of a coming "Rapture" because there is no such thing.

This is true....there is no such thing as a 'secret Rapture' found in scripture.

Hello DD,

There are prophecies to be fullfilled ...before ...Christ can come to take His church home to heaven.

I do hope that when the Lord returns to claim His Bride and all of the believers are "snatched up"... that you don't express rebellion and say,

"Leave me behind!"

My studies have shown that there are too many differences identified in the Bible that are not reconcilable for there to be just one event.  

If you can reconcile these differences, you will make a believer out of me... else, I have to stay with the premillennial theology.

~serapha~




#1
Rapture:  Christ comes in the air  for His own. (1 Thes 4:16)
Second Coming:  Christ comes with His own to earth. (Rev 19:14)

#2
Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11)

#3
Rapture:  There will be a Rapture of all true believers.
Second Coming:  No one is "caught up"

#4
Rapture:  "The Lord is at hand" (Phil 4:5)
Second Coming:  "The Kingdom is at hand" (Matt 24:14)

#5
Rapture:  The expectation of the church is to be taken into the Lord's presence.
Second Coming:  The expectation of Israel is to be taken into the Kingdom.

#6
Rapture:  The Church is taken to heaven at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

#7
Rapture:  The Rapture is imminent, or, at any moment.
Second Coming:  It will be a "glorious appearing" after seven years tribulation.

#8
Rapture:  The Rapture is for believers only.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming affects all mankind.

#9
Rapture:  It is a time of joy and comfort.
Second Coming:  It is a time of mourning and judgement.

#10
Rapture:  The Rapture is before the Day of Wrath.
Second Coming:  It is immediately after the tribulation.

#11
Rapture:  There is no mention of satan.
Second Coming:  Satan will be bound a thousand years.

#12
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the Judgement Seat of Christ
Second Coming:  There is no time/place for judgement.

#13
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the marriage of the Lamb.
Second Coming:  The Bride descends with Christ.

#14
Rapture:  Christians are taken to the Father's house.
Second Coming:  Resurrected saints do not see the Father's house.

Did you forget that the dead in Christ must be raised 'first'....before those who are alive can be taken to be with the Lord ?

#15
Rapture:  After Rapture, tribulation comes.
Second Coming:  After the Coming, the thousand year reign of Christ begins.

#16
Rapture:  The translation is a program for the Church.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is a program for Israel and the world.

#17
Rapture:  The translation is a mystery.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is predicted in both testaments.

#18
Rapture:  Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming:  Creation is changed

#19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.
Second Coming:  The Gentiles are judged.

#20
Rapture:  Believers are judged.
Second Coming:  Gentiles and Israel are judged.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.
Second Coming:  Israel's covenants are fulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.
Second Coming:  Evil is judged.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ judges mankind.

Yes and Jesus said he brings his reward with him....to give 'EVERY' man., (Revelation 22:11,12).

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming

Yes, The Bible says that 'AFTER' the Tribulation Jesus will come agai n(Matthew 24:29-31).

Ephesians 5:30 " And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Ephesians 1:13,14 " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of turth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, whish is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Romans 11:2 " God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

Romans 8:38-39" For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I agree.

The Crusader

God has promised his love for us and towards us.

And how are we to respond ?

"IF...you love me,  keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

Every person who attends a sunday worship service, must understand that they are not obeying what Jesus has told them to do.

Ephesians 1:13,14 " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of turth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, whish is the earnest of our
Romans 8:38-39" For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is true. God loves Satan also...but it was Satan that withdrew himself from God.
 It is man that draws back from God....God always tries to draw men to himself.

Those who were Christians ...then pulled away from him...pull themselves away from the source of all life.
 The Bible tells us about many...who lose out on eternal life ...of their own accord, (Matthew 7:21-23).

 
     The passage tells of the Second Coming of Christ together with resurrection and presumably judgment.  It does not tell of Christians being raptured, or removed, from  Belief in a rapture certainly looks like wishful thinking.   There is another downside.  With many conservative Christians expecting a rapture, there could be a falling away when it does not happen.

And that is what Satan is counting on !

So...we are saying we do not love the Lord, by worshipping?  :'( I don't understand what you are saying. He tells us to gather together with the brethren, to sing praise with one another to the Lord, to lift each other up and bear one another's burdens, not just once a week but whenever possible. If we choose to meet as a congregation at the beginning or middle of the week, or somewhere in between, what commandment have we violated?

There is nothing wrong with worshipping any day of the week...as long as you obey what he asks..."REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy".
 God will never allow anyone into heaven, who disobeys what he says.

Probation = Another Gospel

"..comes the devil and taketh away the word out of their hearts...which for a while believed...but in a time of temptation, fell away", (Luke 8:12,13).


"Say to the righteous...if he trust to his own righteousness and commits sin...all his righteousness shall not be remembered, and he shall die for it", (Ezekiel 33:13,18).


"He that endures...to the end...the same shall be saved", (Matthew 24:13).


"He that overcomes....I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life", (Revelation 3:5).
Question: Overcomes what ?
Sin ?


"Some shall depart from the faith....giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, (1 Timothy 4:1).
Does this says that they once had faith...then lost it ?
Like those people in Matthew 7:21-23 ?


"If having escaped the sin of the world....they again entangle themselves....the latter end is worse for them than at the beginning", (2 Peter 2:20-22).



"Hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering....for if we sin wilfully ...after we've had truth....a certain fearful looking forward to Judgment  which shall devour..", (Hebrews 10:23-29).

 
This is not about people of God being on probation to gain knowledge.

There is no such thing as eternal security....Matthew 7:21-23 proves that.

"He that 'endures' to the end , the same shall be saved"(Matthew 24:13).