also, if you say "we cannot understand why God does things"--this is exactly the same as saying "we cannot understand if it even WAS God." if we cannot understand why, then how can we even know it was God? a not just "sin running it's course on earth?"

either you believe God is PERFECT or you do not. if you believe in an imperfect God, then you are no different than someone who believes in Zeus or Minerva or Mithra or Ra.

if God is perfect, you need to think about what "perfect" means. that means "requires nothing else." if you believe God is perfect, then why are you saying he's so petty that he will refuse to answer a human NEED in dyer straights because you didn't fall on your face and thank him enough for something in the past? not even a nurse in a third-world hospital is this petty.

I think the real answer is God doesn't do anything. why would He?

that's the question; why would God intervene?

i'm not sure you guys understand what "tautological" means...

we shouldn't just pray because praying is good...and praying isn't just good because someone (even God) said so.

you're missing the entire point of me asking this...

Nchrist, you bring up a lot of points i strongly disagree with.
america is deserving of a judgment?
so God gave us free will, and now we deserve to be punished for using it?
"did God send the tsunami?"
how is this any different than saying Posiedon sent the Tsunami?

they live in the Ring of Fire, the most earthquake prone place on the planet. there's nothing even remotely supernatural about this happening. it's only tragic.

if God picks and chooses what prayers he answers depending on how grateful we are for "past answered prayers," why do "miracles" still happen even to people who haven't prayed AT ALL? if your theory is correct, God wouldn't do anything for these people.
Also, if God--YOUR IDEA OF GOD--requires such groveling and sucking up or HE withholds hearing your prayers, then He is the antithesis of a "perfect being." in fact, that would make him more of a premadonna than a lot of HUMANS. i know a lot of people who do not require thanks for "doing the right thing" or even doing favors. but God is less evolved than these people?

hi, i would like discussion on a topic i have been mulling for a while now but getting no real answers...

i would like to preface this by saying i am looking for a thoughtful, rational and logical discussion--so please refrain from any "just gotta have faith" or other tautological replies...

here we go:

why pray? before you start the (ahem, tautological) "because the bible says so and here are the scriptures for it"—I know. I know all about the scriptures that demand we pray…
let's pretend prayer is a universal truth, not bound to Christian dogma alone.

i say that because a lot of my atheist contemporaries seem to have more value in prayer than i can find, which indicates the value of prayer is not confined to a biblically christian importance.

my point--my hang up--is 1. we either pray simply to commune with God, because talking/communing with (whatever your idea of) God (is) is a good thing.
OR
2: we pray to ask God for things...
This is where I get really badly hung up. The second one.

If God “answers” prayers, why is it seemingly arbitrary WHICH he answers? Go ahead and say it—“it’s God’s WILL.”
If whatever happens is God’s will, then why bother asking for anything anyway? Does that mean what happens when you DON’T pray one way or the other, it’s NOT God’s will?
Has anything in the history of time happened that was NOT the will of God?
Deistically, if one believes God created this universe and set it in motion, then anything that happens is part of His original will.
Let’s take the Japanese ultra-catastrophe for an example. Everyone is now offering prayers for japan.
Presumably not one single person was companionate enough to pray “please, God, save Japan from a catastrophe in the near future” before the quake hit.
Presumably, if God hears and answers any prayers pertaining to “helping” japan now, then He would have answers a prayer for NOT letting a quake hit in the first place—a prayer no one seemed to care enough to cast. Someone said “I am praying for you now, Japan!” and someone else replied “NOW?! why didn’t you pray this didn’t happen to start with?! Your prayers now are way too late.”
That’s a good point.
OR
People DID pray and God did it anyway…which means again “whatever’s going to happen is going to happen”---so why pray at all asking for anything??
The only value in prayer I can find is “the granting of peace.” And this seems personal—meaning I could never convince a single other person that prayer does anything. All I could say is “well, it makes ME feel better, maybe it’ll make you feel better, too. but I can’t prove anything.”
I can logically understand praying for peace—but I can’t imagine praying for anything else.
Why would God care who wins the ball game? Why would God even care if we live or die? I mean…from a Christian standpoint, our souls will be with Him forever be them alive or dead—so what difference would it make to Him?
Now, I’m sure at this point everyone reading this thinks I’m some kind of unholy, non-christian anti-prayer who doesn’t believe in prayer.
Let me set that straight: I am the son and brother of Ministers, I’ve been in the ministry to various degrees myself and I pray on a fairly regular basis.
I align my religious views more with our country’s founding fathers more than any other group, so take that however you want.
My questions are extremely valid and honestly stump me. I pray simply because it makes ME feel better. I admit that I have prayed for things to happen that DID happen—things seemingly beyond my control—but I can’t discount coincidence—nor can I discount the fact meditation is a scientifically proven method of achieving gain. It centers and calms us, it helps us to focus and channel energy and allows for things to come to fruit that would otherwise maybe not have…at least not as easily.
Buddhist monks can alter their physiological attributes through meditation—and science confirms it. Raising your temperature and being able to survive sub-zero temperatures that would kill normal folk is no easy feat…but meditation makes it possible.
Prayer could simply be a different method of meditation.
I don’t meditate. I pray.
And it helps me. But I can’t in good conscience say that prayer would have averted disasters that have happened…and if you can, why didn’t you just do that?! That’s you saying “I could have stopped 911…I just didn’t.”

prayer and wisdom is all i can ask for...

i feel bad because i dont think i've accuratly portrayed both sides in these posts.

the hardest thing i'm dealing with is, yeah, right now i'm being walked on. i m at home, learning how to love, giving all that love to her, and she's out doing whatever. but...this is the conflict: i did this same thing to her in the past. i didnt mean to, i didnt even understand what i was doing, but i did. it used to be her going to the library alone, reading books, trying to be a better person for us. and i was callous and wrong to her during that time. and it was me going out with my friends, male or female, feeling like i had a right to do as i pleased because she "wasnt being with me the way i needed her to."
so on top of doing the wrong thing, i also blamed her.
i was so wrong.

now the tables have turned, and tho i feel hurt and abused, i keep thinking "now i understand what i did wrong."

i do want only God's will, and i cannot see it clearly. before, i felt enlightened by Him and excited with what messages i recieved, now i feel like i accidently hung up and now He wont answer my calls. i dont know how or why i feel so abandoned and alone now, but i do. so i will continue to pray.
i am not seeking to rush into anything, i know our road is long (if we even do fix things) but i just dont know if i'm causing myself more harm by sticking it out right now and being friends. i know if i shut that door, i'll have to really shut it and move on and let go in a way that means all this progess, love, hope, will all be lost.

part of me fears that letting go like that will end up hurting me more because i might have lost something more valuable than i can ever get back.
all this pain i feel now is with it's own lessons--i've learned and grown is MASSIVE ways since this whole thing unravelled. i'd venture to say i never knew exactly what true love was until i realized what i had lost and how i had failed her so greatly. now my heart breaks for all the pain i caused her..because i was so foolish and selfish and wrong.

so i see the value in what is happening now...i know that no matter what i have learned a life lesson and i will be a better, stronger person now.
but i feel so confused about what expectations for a future i should have. and that's it--wondering what to expect.
please keep me in your prayers, i m weak, tired, and this is consuming. my heart rate has been sky high for a week--to the point my chest physically hurts and i have to go to a dr.

all i've ever wanted in life is to be loved, and i feel like i had it but blew it. now i feel like i m doing what i have to do to be a better mate, but she doesnt believe me, and she's also taking a bit of advantage of me. but again...i think i did the same to her...so...

God. help me, please. thanks all. this really helps.

i just want His will....

yes, it's about a relationship.

it's such a long story...but she's my soulmate.
or i'm dead wrong.
i love her in a way i never knew i could...we were going to get married.
but she left me, and i realize now a lot of mistakes i made. it's a sad story...
i loved her, and while i didnt mistreat her i did certainly fail to treat her as good as i needed to...
that is to say, she has special needs. she's got certain obsticles she has to overcome to be able to love wholey...big roadblocks that made me feel unloved a lot of the time. it's not because she is bad or wrong, but only because she didnt know how. instead of meeting this with kindness as i should have, i put strains and demands on her to BE with me in the ways i needed. she wanted to, but just couldnt...too much emotional walls to deal with. she has been massively, MASSIVELY wronged in her life many times and it has taught her to fear people. she feels love is only a device designed to make you hurt worse in the end...because people will always hurt you.
that wall made me feel unwanted sometimes, and i acted wrong and ended up pushing her futher away and making her feel more like she needed emotional walls to protect herself from me.

finally it came to a head and she left, and slowly i've been shown (by God) all my mistakes. i'm reading several gary smally books and others as well, all of which have shown me how to be the person i always wanted to be.

she began to work with me, we slowly began rebuilding.

then her house burned down, which sure seemed like a BIG meaningful event.
she wanted to stay with me til she got things settled, so she did for 2 weeks.
we grew closer...but something was amiss...i could tell.
she was 'with' me in a lot of ways but refused to commit.

i have realized now it's because there are other men she's involved with now.
it's crushing...
but i have to realize i did the same thing to her.
we were on a break because she was not emotionally "with" me a long time ago, and during that seperation i felt alone and unwanted and started seeing other people.

so...
i let go of this and gave it to God. she came back to me, and did a few hurtful things that made me think "what does God want?!?"
then...
you know...her HOUSE BURNS DOWN and she wants to stay with me
which sure seems like a "hey, get your act together, get your priorities in line" type of thing...right? i mean...it means something...
and we grew closer, as expected.
and it all seemed like it was God's will.
but now  know about all this stuff she's doing that hurts me...
but at the same time, i know it's not 'who' she is per se, it's more that she's depressed and feels like i wronged her, so she's looking to be fulfilled in wrong areas. she even admits this and says she's not happy, but she's also worn out with the emotional gravity of her and i and is tired of dealing with all the hurts and wrongs and sorting it all out.

and i agree--
however, i know something real exists between us.
and i understand most of what she's doing now, even if it crushes me.
i know i messed up by not growing spiritually and emotionally as i should have when i had the chance. but i am now.

but i feel lost and confused because i dont know what God wants. and i know that no matter how much i want her, if it's not meant to be it's just not going to happen.

but i dont feel like i know for sure. some things have been extremely tangible signs--
i would bawl and cry out and plead for God to give me a sign--something--because i didnt want to hurt or hurt her.
and the signs were VIBRANT and tangible...

but then something terrible will happen, like i find out about the other guys and all her lies, and because i find out, she changes what she wants from me...

so at this point, i m lost as i could be.

so i guess...all of you...just pray for us. what's best...
no more aching and suffering for either of us...
that's fair, right?

yes, it's more confirmation than signs.

i m in a situation that is completely out of my control.
it's the most hurtful, complex, confusing time of my whole life. and this thing effects my future, my life, my happiness.

i know God is with me, but at times i feel so forsaken, alone, and generally lost. floating alone in this ocean of misery.

my whole life, i've tried to let God guide me. but i know i've gotten way, way off track. i feel like he's brought someone amazing into my life but i wrecked it. now i'm learning all i've done wrong and what i have to do to fix it , but i dont feel like i know if i should fix it or if fixing it will even work.

when i feel the most lost and confused, i just pray, and the situation becomes more how i want it to be. then something terrible will happen and i get more confused. when i "let go" and ask God to just show me what's best, it's usually goes how i want it to.  but i dont know if it's my will or His...you know? i cant make this other person act in any way...or do what i want, but...i dont know.

i m scared...mostly because the capacity i have for being extremely hurt is very very high. i m in a precarious position where i could be demolished, but i dont know what i should do.

so. the question is more about..i dunno. i say 'ok, God. i cant control this. i dont know what to do. let them come to me if it's right. it's simple--i will do nothing. if they dont come to me, i wont chase. that way i know, because i dont want to control this situation just because i want it to work out."
so i let go.
and it comes to me.
so i feel strongly that God's will is done...
until something terrible makes me more confused.

which is where i am now...

sorry but i dont entirely follow. it's not the same thing in that scripture as what i m asking.
i m not asking for proof of God, i m just asking for wisdom through tangible signs.

if it's a wicked man, what about the burning bush? or donkey that spoke? or the angels that came down to talk to humans?
the bible is full of very tangible "go do this" signs for mortal humans.

so i m not so sure it's anti-biblical.

do any of you have any info or ideas about visable signs from God? i think it's the most selfish thing i've ever done, asking God to show me in a physical way the answers to some very tough decisions...or for just confirmation of hope.

it's a long story...but the main question is am i foolish for thinking i've seen signs?

like...for instance...practical things, like if they man walking over there goes LEFT it means something. however he could go RIGHT, or he could stop walking or turn around or keep going straight. so it's not like a 2 answer yes and no thing that insures some arbitrary meaning...there are many outlet for it to mean nothing.

some signs i feel like i've gotten are pretty serious...but i dont even know if this is something God would do...it would only serve to help me feel better inside. what do you think?