I think we're getting a little petty here.  Of course you don't have to know "everything" about Jesus to be saved.  None of us knows "everything" about Jesus.  It's a life long journey.  However, you must believe in who he actually IS in order to recieve the salvation that He offers.  If one didn't have the knowledge of the power He has, the power that He can only have, as GOD why would you choose to turn your life over to Him anyway.  Doesn't make sense.  Where would your Hope in Him be?  May as well put your hope in your next door neighbor, etc.
It is the very foundation of Christianity that Jesus IS God, that he was there at the beginning of creation, that he has always been part of the Trinity.  To tell folks that they can recieve their salvation on anything less is false teaching.

The "very foundation of Christianity" is that God loves us so much that He sacrificed His own Son the we might have eternal life.

[Go back and read the Scriptures you have been given. Not another word is needed from you, me, or anyone else. GOD has already spoken on this issue with bluntness and without question. This is not my doctrine or my belief that I'm pushing - JUST THE CLEAR, BLUNT WORD OF GOD! YOU ARGUE WITH GOD - NOT ME! YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THE SCRIPTURES YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN ANY OTHER WAY - AND GOD'S WORD IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY ON THIS ISSUE!]

Bluntly, I'm simply going to tell you that I don't care what you think, and it matters ZERO what I think. I care what the Bible clearly and boldly states in a way that is UNQUESTIONABLE. Go back and read the Scriptures you have been given. Not another word is needed from you, me, or anyone else. GOD has already spoken on this issue with bluntness and without question. This is not my doctrine or my belief that I'm pushing - JUST THE CLEAR, BLUNT WORD OF GOD! YOU ARGUE WITH GOD - NOT ME! YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THE SCRIPTURES YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN ANY OTHER WAY - AND GOD'S WORD IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY ON THIS ISSUE!

Why the hostitiy?  And what I have said is not my idea but what God has revealed to me.

["whosoever believeth in him"]

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


"whosoever believeth in him". To believe in Him is to believe in His word. Jesus said "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". It is quite clearly written that if you do not believe that Jesus is God that you will not receive salvation. It was for this very reason that many were cut off at the roots.

I've already stated what "believe" means in John 3:16 and it's not what you say.

[A person does have to believe who JESUS CHRIST said HE IS and what HE DID on THE CROSS for SALVATION.]

Hello Chaplain Bob,

I also disagree with you completely, and this isn't "seminary mumble-jumble"! This is the BASIC TRUTH for SALVATION and an incredibly important issue. This is a simple Bible Fact not subject to debate. There is a simple and excellent reason why our FAITH is in JESUS CHRIST and not the thief on the cross next to HIM. JESUS CHRIST is VERY GOD, and all others are just men. A person does have to believe who JESUS CHRIST said HE IS and what HE DID on THE CROSS for SALVATION.

Frankly, I can't believe that we're having this conversation. It's bizarre and does not bring Glory to GOD. It makes me sad to know that the lost will be reading this. Denial of the ABSOLUTE DEITY of JESUS CHRIST is part of many FALSE RELIGIONS that don't save a single soul. FAITH comes by HEARING, and HEARING by THE WORD OF GOD. You've been given GOD'S WORD, and it bluntly addresses this issue. Make it simple and read the Scripture you've been given again. The Scripture is incredibly simple and blunt without the need for any commentary at all. So, that would also rule out the possibility of any "mumble-jumble" unless that's what you want to call GOD'S WORD.

First of all I do not deny that Jesus is God nor would I ever teach anyone that He is not God.  Where we disagree is when one obtains that knowledge.  The primary salvation verse, John 3:16, does not require that one know Jesus is God in order to be saved.  "Believe" in John 3:16 means "put trust in" and does not require that one believe Jesus is God in order to be "saved".  I believe many people have difficulty coming to Christ and may be lost to the Kingdom because men have complicated the simple salvation message by requiring a convert believe doctrinal issues that they should be taught after salvation.   I have been a follower of Jesus for 61 years and in recent times God has opened my eyes to the errors being taught and the fact that people don't need religion they need Jesus.  What the lost should be reading is that God loves them and has offered them salvation by shedding the blood of His Son to pay the price for their sins NOT "God offers you salvation IF you learn everything about Jesus before you put your trust in Him".   

[Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.]

We are justified by faith, by His blood are we sanctified. A person does not come to the foot of the cross without first believing. Sanctification is not given to those that do not first believe and we believe by faith.


Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

With all due respect Roger you are speaking in what I call "seminary mumble-jumble" which is used by many  IMO to elicit additional questions from listeners or readers the most common of which is "What does that mean?".  The simple truth is that when a person chooses to follow God ( "believes" Gr pisteuo "puts one's trust in") he is saved by the shed blood of our Lord Jesus.  If he continues to "believe" (put his trust in, cling to, follow) and was brought to salvation by hearing the Gospel he will learn who Jesus is.  Knowing who Jesus is is not a requirement for salvation (John3:16). 

One's faith in Jesus is what keeps them saved as they grow in the knowledge of Him.  But it is the blood of Jesus that initially saves them.

I must disagree with you on this quite adamantly. Jesus Christ said that He was God. If we cannot believe Him then where lies our faith?

Roger:

When one repents and chooses to follow God they are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ-period.  The fact that Jesus is God is something they learn after they are saved and grow spiritually and has nothing to to with their salvation but, as you pointed out, their faith. 

Believing Jesus is God is not a requirement for salvation.  It may be for membership in some churches but there were none in Judas' day.  We don't know Judas' heart or whether or not he repented before he killed himself, only God does.   As to why he betrayed Jesus - it was God's plan.  If Judas refused to do it God would have found someone else.  No complicated theological problem here.

David:

I suspect that you may think of praying as some sort of duty and that if you don't pray regularly you are less of a Believer.  If I am reading you correctly that is erroneous and bothersome belief.  Think of praying as talking to God.  You can talk to Him any place and any time about anything, even at the computer.  There is no "proper" way or time to pray.  He is your Heavenly Father.  Talk to Him as your Father and friend.  And the Bible does not tell us how often we "must" pray.  So talk to Him as anyone with whom you have a loving relationship.  Much praying in Christianity is religious habit (before meals, before Sunday School lesson, before sermon, before trips, etc.).  Not that that is necessarily bad.  It's just not commanded.

actually I dont' feel like it's that clear cut... if for example someone in our church would like to marry a nice christian girl and the leaders dont' want them to...

No one (not ever you) has the right to tell you who to marry, only God does.  As far as the other areas of your life are concerned you certainly may seek advise from your pastor (him, not her) and do what you will with his advise.  But if they are "butting in" without an invitation then I'd say find another church.

When Jesus left this Earth He promised to send the Holy Spirit to comfort us.  So God is doing what He's doing in our lives through the One we know as the Holy Spirit (not that it really makes a difference because the Spirit is also God).  Your prayers are never unanswered.  When you pray to the Heavenly Father (as Jesus instructed us to do) He will answer in His time, in His way and in a way you will understand.  It really doesn't matter either if God (Jesus) is riding in your shirt pocket or is sitting on His throne.  He hears and sees you and will do whatever His covenant with us allows Him to do.  I don't believe Jesus is just "sitting at the right hand of God".  The Bible teaches us the Jesus said He was going to prepare a place (in eternity) for us.  Because He is God He can be everywhere at once and this is simply something we don't understand.  But I don't recall any Scripture telling us we are to understand God.  As a matter of fact the Bible tells us "His ways are not our ways".  Don't make the mistake of trying to understand God or our relationship with Him in human terms.

because it is wrong.

If I understand you correctly I can't believe you said that.  Sexual urges are not wrong..  Sex and the urges that go with it are beautiful, God-given gifts.

Actually I see the you've been registered for quite some time now.  So in that case I'll say, "Nice to meet ya!"

Thank you.  My pleasure.  I don't get by here all that often 'cause it doesn't seem to be a very active board.

There is absolutely no Biblical authority for a church to require a member to ask the pastor's permission to visit another church.

After many years of studing the subject I am convinced there are no Scriptural grounds for a divorce in a God-ordained marriage.  When Jesus was talking about divorce in Matthew I believe He was talking about thase we would call "engaged" today.  If a man learned his fiancee' had sex with another man he could give her a "bill of divorce" and call off the wedding.  That is what Joseph was planning to do with Mary until the angel straightened him out.

I believe the rules Scripture lays out for marriage are for God-ordained marriages ("what GOD has joined together") and not just any marriage.  The reason the divorce rate is as high in the Christian community as in the rest of society is because many Believers run to the altar and ask God to bless THEIR choice rather than letting God choose their mate (if He wants them to marry at all).  Therefore, it is my opinion that not all marriages are of God. 

So what needs to be determined is whether the marriages the couple you mention came from are God-ordained.  If not then they are not bound by God's "marriage laws" in which case the pastor is not liable for violating any of God's laws.  If they came from God-ordained marriages then they must follow God's "marriage laws.  In that case the pastor should not marry them.