This is from the Christian site xxxxxxxx.com. It is awesome:

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It's called "xxx xx x xxxxx" It's why I think the way I do. If it's wrong, if it's Michael Moore "LLL" baloney, go ahead and show me.

Ha ha ha

Yeah, you'll be laughing at the liberals when they're lunatic kids and anarchist legions are destroying our homes, cars and businesses like they're doing in Paris right now. That's when you'll want guns, my friends. But by then we'll have let the liberals take away our second ammendment rights, so you won't even have guns to protect yourselves with.

Yeah, really, why am I even getting concerned over this? This is a nation that allows abortion and is about to allow gay marriage. How could I expect my fellow Christians to see past their own emotions and experiences to see the truth? For the next Katrina they may as well just hand out 666 stamps instead of debit cards. Everyone will jump in.

Let's all have a party and buy the "Purpose Driven Life" woo hooo!!!!!

Please, PLEASE show me where I can find info on how these facts have been falsified. How many vets protested Vietnam, how many vets are poor kids and minorites as opposed to rich kids? How many Desert Storm vets died of mysterious illnesses in the last decade without significant help from the VA? How many Iraqis died of starvation since the embargoes in '91, how many died of battlefield chemical poisons? Tell me where the WMD's are? Who lied about that and why? You tell me what I said was FALSE?? Please show me how I am wrong then, I am only dealing with supposed facts and information here- you can change my mind if you can show what the actual truth is. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME THEN. It is practically your Biblical duty, otherwise you're just saying "nah, they are lies because it's the liberal media" and you don't give a rip about letting a brother believe supposed lies over here.

If the liberal media is showing nothing but lies, why can't the conservative media show some facts then? Why can't the conservative media even talk about WMD's or Iraqi women and children being killed, or US troops with their arms and legs blown off and getting sick and dying from vaccinations? You think we're setting Iraq free? Why'd we embargo them if we care so much? You tell me then LittlePilgrim and let me know the truth, what is the truth then? Are we killing evil Iraqis and liberating Iraq to have a democracy that becomes as decadent and perverted as ours and Bush is the Bonesman messenger of God?

Whew, it felt great to get that off my chest. Seriously, if things I said are wrong, facts etc.- they need to be corrected then. I do not watch or listen to or have anything to do with the liberal media (though I did see Fahrenheit 9/11). I listen to Christian media (KFAX 1100) and they are silent about this for the most part. The things I mention come from what I've heard over the years that appears documented.

What is being tried? Who is taking over our Country?  People like the ACLU are taking over our country because the politicians are sending all ignorant and gullible Christians off to wars to fight some poor third worlders, while those still here are addicted to porn and divorcing at the same rates as unbelievers. God once told Israel "my people perish for lack of knowledge".

With all due respect in regards to these matters, don't tell me what to do, or what to listen to, or call me the parrot of some documentary film maker. You can actually refute my statements with facts if I'm wrong, and show me where I'm wrong without insulting me.

Are you going to tell me the majority of people in Vietnam wanted US soldiers there? Then why was there a war? My dad was in Vietnam, if they wanted him there why'd they try to blow his brains out? We're talking black pajama wearing VC here, who ate and slept in villages just like Iraqi "freedom fighters" are sleeping in the very towns occupied by US troops. So many Vietnam vets have protested and stated the obvious, and so many Desert Storm vets have died in the last decade as a result of mysterious illnesses and have not been helped by the VA. The rich oppress the poor, as James said, and war is no different- it's just another means of doing so. Who's dying in Iraq? It's not any rich Iraqi's, that's for sure.  Meanwhile, poor American kids, though completely spoiled by the world's standards, are dying and killing poor Iraquis, women and children alike.

The fact is I apparently know more about politics than most in the church, unfortunately. They are compelled by emotion and experience, but little knowledge or acceptance of reality, just like people in power want it- brainwashed by media. The church is actually going right along with the liberal agenda. You would allow Bonesman and rich elitists to tell us what to believe as far as war is concerned- all they have to do is say that they are Christian but not back it up, and throw around words like "freedom" and "peace" and "justice", things they never learned anything about while partying with strippers and snorting coke in their hidden mansions.

If I do have little knowledge, what is the answer for the things I've stated, the points I've made? Michael Moore may be a misguided liberal, but I know some of the few facts he has stated cannot be dismissed. He is pooh poohed away just because many Christians blindly accept Bush as a Christian, and so are against any call to accountability. All the conservative media does is say "we are spreading freedom" but where are the facts and information? The liberal media is then dismissed just because they are not Christian, when they actually may be stating some facts. So far I haven't seen any facts from either side of the media that would make me think this war is just. And information like Skull and Bones comes straight from Christian sources who have processed it from conspiracy nuts, but there is documented info nonetheless- more trustworthy than any liberal or conservative media opinions.

What is my "true intention"? How dare you even make that statement and make it seem like I have some sort of hidden agenda. This is a debate forum- that's what I'm doing, that's my intention. It's sad that I actually have to debate with fellow christians on the true nature of power and secret societies and worldly wars and oppression. This should have been learned from the bible.

I look to James and see what he says about power. Those of us who serve in the military or law enforcement may serve honourably, we may even KILL honourably in the course of our duty, but it doesn't mean our leaders have honourable agendas. I will pray for them as God commands, but I won't sit by and say killing and oppressing the weak is just, or the agendas my leaders serve are just.

I may not know much about politics, but unfortunately I apparently know more than the average Christian in America, and it all starts with the book of James in the word of God. (James 2:6-7, James 5:1-6.) The very nature of worldy power is corruption, which naturally results in oppression, that's why Satan is the god of this world and has the power to distribute authority as he sees fit, just as he offered that power to Jesus while tempting him. We may have to serve these people in power, but let's be truthful and just as Christians and call evil and oppression what it is.

On a side note, to give an example of the gullibility and lack of discernment in the church, I'd point to Prop 73 which is being voted on in my state of CA on Nov. 8. This Prop states that underage girls will have to notify parents 48 hours before getting an abortion. Ignorant Christians all over this state are pushing to support this Prop thinking it is a stepping stone to ban abortion, thinking it will prevent teens from killing babies if they legally need parental permission. What they are doing is actually condoning abortion! They are saying it is okay to have an abortion if there is parental consent!  Do you see the ridiculousness?! Please read about this subject- I may start another topic on this. The church is in trouble, this ignorance is a perfect example of it.

     I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread, or if anyone's heard about this, but I was listening to Christian radio the other day and there was a talk show guest discussing the ACLU, and to point out I guess the lowest depths of their depravity, he mentioned their work defending a group called the "Manboy Association" or something like that.

     I've heard about the guys before, but have yet to actually read about them, I don't know if I even want to on the net. But this group is completely incredible in it's motives, and the ACLU jumped to aid these guys. I don't think I even want to mention their goals and aims, it is so twisted.

     This is probably the creepiest thing I've ever heard of so far, but along with the whole gay agenda, it makes me feel we are witnessing the decline on American civilization, just like the excesses and perversion of Rome back in the day. It's truly disturbing.

     In Vietnam it was "communism". In Iraq it's "terrorism". Neither of these "isms" is or was widely supported by the majority of the people in these countries, most of whom are/were poor and war-weary and just wanted to carry on with a normal, peaceful life.

     In Vietnam, my dad and countless young American kids fought against rice farmers wearing sandals. The VC could not secure combat boots, let alone mount an attack on the US. And the poor farmers could care less what type of government/market ruled in their few big cities- communist, capitalist, whatever- they just wanted US troops out just like they kicked the French out before them who made it obvious they were there for Colonialist and Imperialist goals. American politicians tried to spin it into some sort of fight to "spread freedom". Meanwhile all that was being spread were bombs, Hershey bars, and venereal diseases.

     In Iraq today thousands of American kids have died fighting a country that was already destroyed by Desert Storm. The ensuing embargoes placed on Iraq by the West and the deaths by diseases from radioactivity and other battlefield poisons took it's toll on the nation, leading to thousands if not millions of infant deaths, and deaths by starvation and poisoning. Meanwhile, the dictator, or whatever he was, was being vilified in the US media, as dictators in China and Nigeria were allowed to kill thousands of Christians, but who gives a rip about them. Those countries don't have oil. (Hey Iraq, it's okay, we'll give you Food for Oil.)

     There were no weapons of mass destruction- there are plenty of children dying of radiation poisoning and things like bombs and bullets, thanks to the US military under govt. orders. Meanwhile US contractors swoop into Iraq to make their dough, just like the pirates of old- the BONESMEN who took advantage of the poor, the weak, the war-weary in days gone by.

     So it's clear where I stand on this. I don't know about you guys, but if some foreign country came over here and started killing my friends and family and telling us they were going to start a government that was best for us and "spread freedom", I don't think I'd agree with that.

The first comment has moved me to start another topic, where I'll voice my opinions on what you said.

Pastor,

Amen to your last comment. Thanks for putting that in perspective for me. But Bush being a Bonesman is still not sitting right, regardless.

blackeyedpeas,

Apparently you are thinking I'm a liberal democrat of some sort out to smear Bush. I'm not out to do that. I disagree with most of the liberal things you mentioned, Kerry, the ACLU, etc.

I am not a Democrat, but neither am I a Republican- I pretty much refuse to cast votes for individuals at all because I don't want to be also held accountable for their inevitable crimes by throwing in my vote of support. If someone could point out a genuine Christian candidate I could trust I would support them- here in California it's not likely to happen- it's usually the "lesser of two evils" in which case I choose neither.

What I've been posting about actually has nothing to do with politics, rather I'm questioning the Christian nature of Bush.

Bonesman are in a lifetime fraternity, bound by oaths of brotherhood, so it doesn't matter if he was in school 30 years ago, he refuses to renounce his membership. If I saw Christians in the church who were Freemasons I would bring these things to their attention as well. So I don't care how long he serves or when his time is up, I want to be aware and want my fellow Christians to be aware of what public figures representing Christianity are all about especially if they have a ton of influence. We already have a load of false teachers on tv and radio making us look like fools to America. I do this in the spirit of the Bereans, who even questioned and tested Paul before they accepted him.

My problem, I guess, is with Christians gullibly holding up Bush as some sort of white knight of Christianity, when he is actually misrepresenting us if he is a Bonesman and saying the things about Islam he has said ("the Koran is the word of God" etc.) Hey, God bless Bush. I pray for him and all leaders, just as the Bible says. But I won't point out to unbelievers Bush or his work as a shining example of Christianity. Usually, I can't even defend Bush to unbelievers, just based on his political work. I mean, anybody find those WMD's yet? Iraq was apparently about as much of a threat to us with their "terrorism" as the rice farmers in Vietnam were a threat to us with their "communism". Bush is just a puppet of whatever power structures are out their with their globalist agendas. If he can't at least renounce his involvement with a secret society, what's left? Hey, he's apparently trying to get some anti-abortion justices into the Supreme Court, but other than that I can't even defend a majority of his political work to the world, as far as I know. And I don't know much about politics, I'm more concerned with where he stands as a Christian and how he represents us to the world.

So again, my point is, and I thought I made it clear: I don't like the fact that Bush is a Bonesman and I think he should renounce his oaths and bonds of brotherhood with them. It's akin to having a Freemason in the church, an unequal yoke.

Well, hopefully I can convince you of the sinister nature of the Skull and Bones Society.

The obvious thing that's well documented is the taking of blood oaths and occultic, mystical initiation rites similar to Masons and Mediterranean Mystery Cults, and ancient Egyptian religion. These rites include an initiate masturbating inside a coffin and discussing his entire sexual history with another brother, not as a confession at all, but as a sort of Hegelian dialect to desensitize the initiate to sin, and dissuade him from any moral foundation he may have had. They then obviously party down with co-eds as all college frats do, but with more power and money and secrecy backing the whole thing, so it is far more decadent than your average frat party.

I believe these are concrete, well-documented facts diclosed by witnesses, i.e. former Bonesmen and welcome or unwelcome observers.

A definite concrete fact is the symbolism of the group and what it represents. The Skull and Crossbones are a pirate motif and represent complete control of life and death. Pirates were murderous thieves, and also often involved in occultic practices. Now belonging to this group has much more serious implications I think, than say belonging to a baseball team called "the Pirates" because of the oaths and rituals and even the LIFESTYLE involved.

Everyone who's ever come in contact with even a college fraternity knows what goes on as far as drugs, alcohol, and sex are concerned. We all know Bush was into liquor, a womanizer, and a coke-head. I believe he repented of this (hopefully), but his reputation was obvious.

I think repenting of his membership in that club is obviously required. I can't see any reason for him to stay in it other than to maintain his power, at the risk of having many Christians such as myself not really trust him as a fellow Christian just yet.

Actually, just to make my point super clear:

Can a Christian be a Freemason?

Can a Christian be a Bonesman?

The answer to both questions is a firm "absolutlely NOT".

That's my point.

Thanks for your response Pastor, but I believe you're over-generalizing my statements and missing my point.

I meant to differentiate between "sinners" and actual "coverts" of Jesus. Implying that if a prostitute or adulterer decided to follow Jesus they were no longer sinners in the Jewish sense, they were now converts to Christ and repented of their ways (hopefully, that's what's supposed to happen anyway). This was to repudiate the false belief that we are commanded to hang out with "sinners" for as I said, we could not avoid them if we tried according to Paul (1 Cor. 5:9-11). We will hang out with them no matter what, as a consequence of living on Earth. Sure, we are all sinners, but in Christ we are also now "priests and Kings and saints" and we are supposed to have repented of habitual sins. People use the whole swim-with-the-fishes attitude to justify things like missionary dating, which is totally wrong. That's what I was trying to say. We're fishermen, we don't swim with the fishes, know what I mean? We catch them from the safety of our boat and our own fellowship. This does not mean we avoid service or jobs, but rather avoid the unequal yoke, bonds of brotherhood, etc.

     But I would ask you this, didn't Jesus command us to not swear oaths? Because the armed services require oaths, does this then justify taking oaths when Jesus commanded againts it? Someday everyone will have to take an oath or a mark just to participate in society (that would be a 666) according to Revelations, so does that justify taking the mark, just because the military or political offices require it? Rather I say this is the beginings of lukewarm thinking, to say "well the military requires an oath, so it's not evil, even though Jesus COMMANDED against it." And by the way, Freemasonry and Skull and Bones require BLOODY OATHS that are public record, not conspiracy theory. This is nothing to sniff at.

As far as the whole good/evil politics thing, again I think you're misunderstanding me. My point is a Christian should not be involved with Freemasonry or anything closely related to it, which includes Skull and Bones. A christian also should not be involved in New Age practices like astrology, which Reagan was definitely into, that is a fact, not a rumor. But I understand the times, I understand people get confused about these things and are overwhelmed by the culture- hence my point here- you have to avoid PARTICIPATING in certain groups. You will never be able to avoid the actual individuals, it's there in common ground everyday life we witness to them, so the swim-with-the-fishes attitude angers me when trying to be applied to this situation.

You cannot be a Freemason and be a solid Christian at the same time, neither can you be a Bonesman. It is an unequal yoke. Look at what Bush said about Islam, that shows his incredible ignorance and worldliness in these matters of spirituality.

I never said a Christian should not get involved in politics. In fact I said the opposite, because this is one of the few countries that supposedly provides the opportunity. I'm only doubting how much integrity a Christian can maintain without compromising with such power in this CURRENT non-theocracy (the Bible guys you mentioned served in a theocracy, not a communitarian democracy). Please don't misrepresent my statements to try to make them detractable.

My point again, to clarify: Christians should not be a part of fraternal organizations like Freemasonry and Skull and Bones, and any Christian convert should renounce all fraternal allegiances to them and their oaths, otherwise they are unequally yoked. If Bush still considers himself a Bonesman, he is an ignorant, lukewarm Christian at best.

A fraternal organization is a brotherhood, and the Skull and Bones implies the same type of oaths that Freemasonry has, and it also has perverted sexual practices involved, among many other sketchy things like a "pirate" attitude. It is clear we are to have nothing to do with these things, even the Greek college fraternities are suspect, unless you feel fine being equally yoked to people (fraternity is literally "brotherhood") who regularly binge drink and engage in Bacchanalian orgies and promiscuity.

All too often I hear people pooh pooh this as just another "conspiracy theory", which is a silly phrase and denies the actual information involved. The Skull and Bones itself is literally a conspiracy- a secret and powerful organization with a ton of influence- the "secret" and "organization" and "powerful" (both pres. nominees were Bonesman) all make this a literal conspiracy- it's not some paranoid delusion, it's an accurate description of how leadership works in the world, by powerful people conspiring about certain very important matters in secret.

We are not to take oaths, we are not to be unequally yoked in the name of "reaching people for Jesus", and to avoid these groups is not being reclusive, it's avoiding a dark alliance. People are very naive to think Jesus just hung out with sinners all day- He hung out with his converts, and lived and worked in a world full of sinners as we all do. Paul says we COULD NOT remove ourselves from hanging out with sinners even if we wanted to, because we share the same planet with them (1 Cor. 5:9-11). There is no commandment from Jesus to "not avoid sinners but hang out with them", because this is just a fact of life anyway. All too many times I hear this baloney when Christians try to justify missionary dating and this kind of nonsense. We have to hang with sinners whether we want to or not, but we are not supposed to be equally yoked. Membership in a fraternal organization like the Skull and Bones is an unequal yoke and Bush needs to completely renounce this, and renounce his oaths and bonds of brotherhood. Instead he says things like "well, my involvement with them is so secretive that this is all I can say about that."

I don't know much about the Reagan era, just like I cannot comment on whether Bush is doing a good job or not politically, but I believe I do know discernment among Christians and I've had my questions about Reagan on that front as well. Didn't he belong to the masons as well, and didn't he participate in astrology? These are the kinds of things that people in power end up doing, and they stray from sound Christian doctrine. It's just the nature of power. Remember, what was the one thing Satan offered Jesus when he tempted him?

I have no problem with my fellow Christians getting involved in politics- I mean this is the one country where common people can supposedly do that. But I do have a problem with Christians praising a person(s) in office as the White Knight of Christianity when they probably need to be examined a little more in regards to that. It takes more than just being anti-abortion, and claiming you are a Christian etc. I mean we have a lot of really popular false teachers existing in America today, and people gullibly follow them because of a sort of basic form of ignorance about some Christian doctrine. I'm not a teacher by any means, but when I see leadership involved with these types of things I get upset and don't want to be associated with that, or have that lead unknowing Christians astray.

I figure, who cares what kind of job Bush is doing?

I wonder why my fellow Christians seem to be sold on his faith when he refuses to cut ties with the Skull and Bones Society. There are too many Christians in America that are lukewarm and ignorant and think they can be Freemasons or belong to some sort of occult-oriented fraternal organization and yet also be true Christians at the same time.

I'm not confident I would want this man representing Christianity to America, and I'm also starting to think it's impossible to be a Christian and make it into politics, unless you're lukewarm and compromising.

I wonder, how many actual Christians are in office among the Senate and the House? Why do my fellow Christians seem to think the Republican party is also like, the Christian party? Just because they say they are pro-life and anti-gay marriage?