Wow, those Texas Grandmas know their stuff.  Great stuff Betty!  

Ben

Amen, great post.  It's important that we praise and believe in God's amazing Grace.  But it's equally important that we know how to obtain it and walk in it.  Unbelievers and those with a fruitless faith, are not true believers and they should know it for the sake of their eternal destiny.  Too often we let our theological theories croud out the reality of the existential circumstances where these things are applied.

There is a debate among Christians about whether we can loose our salvation or not under various theoretical circumstances.  While the question is a real one, it is not the primary question we should be asking until we clear other things up first.  For whatever our view on that issue, we should all know the admonition of Scripture to keep pressing forward in our faith.  The faith that saves is the faith that endures, and produces fruit.  

Hbr 3:12-14  "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.  But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is {still} called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.  For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,"

When the word faith or belief appears in Scripture it is with the idea of continuing action, not one time past action.  John 3:16 for instance.  "Believeth."  That's present tense.  

I appreciate your post.  

Benjamin

[Rev 21:6-8 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."]

drag,

I strongly agree with Pastor Roger.  Listen, if you commit suicide I'm absolutely convinced you're going to land in worse problems than you have now.  Far worse and irreversable.  

Suicide is self murder.  Several men in the Bible, under bad circumstances, prayed that God would take their lives.  They were in deep despair.  I believe perhaps Job and maybe Jeremiah are examples of this, I'm not sure.  But this is not the same as suicide.  Suicide is a choice to face God as a murderer.  Saul did, and he was a man that was lost.  

The book of 1John says, "and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."  

Please DO NOT risk this.  I'm convinced you'll go to hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.  

Rev 21:6-8   Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.  "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.  "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

i think it depends on the person.  only God knows their reasons/motives/circumstances. and since any sin can be forgiven, yes, it is possible that someone who commits suicide can go to heaven.

I'm sorry that's just not true.  It's just hypothetical theory.  The Bible is all about REALITY and the above passage from Revelations shows this.  

Another thing I want to point out is that you've asked questions before about what we have to believe to get to heaven.  Those questions are legitimate, but the primary fact is that it's not what be believe that saves us but who we believe.  We are saved by faith in God.  This faith expresses itself through works or else it just isn't real faith.  Even the demons believe in God and shudder in fear of hell.  But their belief won't save them because it isn't belief that makes a difference in their lives.  You're in a similar situation.  If you believe in God then you're left with no choice.  You can't commit suicide.  That's an act of unbelief.  I'd be scared to death.  

Hang in there friend.  Please turn to the Psalms in your Bible and begin to pray and cry out to God.  Put your faith in His love and care for you.  Because Jesus Christ does love you.  I'm praying for you.  

If you seriously don't have anywhere to turn, please private message me and I'll give you my email address or phone #.  I won't give you any bull and I'll hear you out.  

Hang in there friend, it's a tuff life out there but there's much more to it than you've yet found.  I promise.

Benjamin Scott      

AVBunyan,

Thanks, that's a darn good idea.  I'll certainly do that next time.  That wasn't fun loosing all that work but it's ok.  Welcome back to the forum from your abscence.

God bless,  Ben  

Glad the thread's picked up some life.  Some great posts from all.  

Cris, I'm sorry I really have trouble answering the question not just because it divides the body of Christ but because if I choose either answer I feel I'll be unfaithful to one Scripture or another that states the opposite in it's natural reading.  How can I answer?  This is precisely why I define a Christian ultimately as seen in my above post from Heb. 3.  I hope that's an answer in itself though I do feel bad for coping out of the theological debate on this specific issue but I just can't answer it.  

Anyway, whatever I felt I needed to say, I've mostly already said it.  I appreciate your questions and if I thought I could answer I truly would.  Why don't you take one of the other poster's answers and continue from there, since I realize my position leads to a dead end with it.  Though I do feel my answer is an answer.  

Specifically with assurance, I totally agree with the above post about it and I appreciate that.  There are many means by which we can have assurance but if I have assurance today and as a result, tomorrow go out and live like hell, and I don't turn away from it, then I have to question those subjective feelings I originally had.  Some passages such as Heb. 6, or 10 seem pretty forward with warning for those who have a false assurance.  This is also why the statement, "Do not be deceived" preceeds many a hard passage for us to accept in its natural meaning.  We want to skip hop or jump around what it obviously states.  I say that sincerely because I really believe that much of our theology often blinds us to what Scripture really has to say.  

But having said that, I am not up to spending my time even saying what I mean by this.  I want it to stand alone.  I don't feel it's my purpose at this time.  I just offer some sincere advise to anyone interested.  Read Scripture for what it says and don't allow yourself to be blinded from its straightforward meaning by what others have said it means or by what they refuse to see it means.  Don't dodge Scripture.  A person's systematic theology is the single biggest factor in determining his "exegesis" that there is.  Exegetical preaching is often just an illusion.  Greek doesn't clarify things that much and hard study in one passage doesn't usually go very far to changing one's assumptions.  The independent Baptists see what they see and are convinced they're right.  That's understandable.  I grew up in  GARBC Independent Baptist church myself.  They thought the other churches in town weren't even churches at all.  The Reformed see things the way they see them and are convinced they're right and that the Dispensationalists are full of mud.  The Pentecostals think that half the church is pretty blind to not see how obvious it is that the spiritual gifts have continued.  I believe there's a lot of sincerity on most sides.  Just a lot of disagreements too.  I'm interested in understanding why and that's what a lot of my earlier posts address.  Don't allow yourself to become blinded by your theology and say that Scripture supports it, when in reality you've only learned how to best support it from Scripture and how to deal with the passages that don't seem to agree with it.

As you well point out Cris.  Each side quotes their own Scriptures.  The goal here is this: To deal fairly with all of the passages involved.  I feel that's very possible, but it may require some radical questioning, as you're doing.  Keep studying and thinking.  Get such a handle on the Scriptures themselves that the systematic theology flows from them naturally rather than from the theological books that somehow are supposed to define orthodoxy for us or our own group.  Scripture alone defines the truth.

Ben

Ben    

Evangelist,

I appreciate your position and welcome your posts.  It is the popular one with the Christians I've been around, and I held to it and defended it for years myself.  I don't feel it is always willing to emphasize the full truth of Scripture, which states other things emphatically aswell, that we need to keep in balance.  You must be just as strong with Jesus' statement regarding unforgiveness.  Otherwise you are just speaking a hypothetical and applying it to an actual.  This would be basically explaining away Jesus' words about forgiveness through theology rather than listening to them.  That's my concern that we don't explain anything away.

The actual question is what I'm to do if I have unforgiveness in my heart of know another "Christian" who does.  Scripture is clear I need to remove the problem or be in danger of hell, nomatter whether I think I'm saved or not.  

If we are saved, our arrival in heaven is assured but how do we know we are saved?  What does the Bible say about this?  

Romans 7 has little to do with a Christian's daily experience with sin.  Rather it is an accurate illustration of the experience of how the flesh prevents us from keeping the law when we have not yet learned or applied the truth of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8)  Vs.13 is transitional.  Paul is using a rhetorical device and modeling his own teachings.

1Cor. 3:11-15 is absolutely true, but it isn't a catchall for people who think they are saved but aren't or who should atleast fear they aren't.

Gal 6:7   "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.  For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."  

Ben
 

Cris,

I just spent two hours or more, writing out a long reply to your questions.  When I sought to submit it I lost everything because it was, "too long."  I'm sorry I lost it but I don't have another two hours to give to it right now.  Here's the short answer without all the details and passages from half the NT to back it up.  

I feel that the issue of whether a Christian can loose his salvation or not is a traditional theological question, not a Biblical one.  I believe it's the wrong question and I can't find too many good reasons for asking it.  I certainly can't find good reasons for emphasizing it.  We need to emphasize what Scripture emphasizes, not just teach what it teaches.

The right question(s)?  I believe the first is:  What is a Christian?  

After we've defined what a Christian is, let's see if the question of whether a Christian can loose his salvation is still valid?  Here's my practical Bible definition of a Christian:

 "...For we have been partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,..." Heb. 3:12-14  _{Read context and infact all of Hebrews for the full impression.}

You can't get much more theological than that.  That's how I define what a Christian is.  

And the second question is this:  How do I know I am a Christian?

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love...." 1Jn. 4:15-18

You can't get much more real and practical than that.  Our faith produces the fruit of love or else it isn't real and we have no way of proving to ourselves that it is real.  Read all of 1Jn. for the full idea.  

Many can't accept this because their lives don't match it.  That's not a good enough reason to not accept it.  It is all the more reason to pay heed.  As Eph. 5 says.  "You shall be Holy for I am Holy."   We ought to conduct ourselves in fear because we have been saved with the blood of Jesus, not perishable things like silver or gold.  Let's allow God to prove our faith and refine it.  It's value to us is beyond that of gold.  It's value is in its end.  God.

Ben

So you don't view the KJV as directly inspired, just the most accurate translation of them all?  I don't have a problem with that position.  I'm not a textual critic or a Greek scholar though I've studied a bit of both.  

My own persuasion against the KJV has largely come from the faulty biased reasoning of KJV only advocates.  Having listened to sermons with titles like, "Logic must prove the KJV" and read articles by others with the same views, I found their arguments to be weak.  If there is a legitimate case to be made they ought to put their best foot forward.  The whole thing never made any sense to me anyway.  Nobody's yet answered my question about what I am to do if I don't speak english.  I'm sure it's answerable.  


Ben  

Cris,

I'm wondering if you have a postion on these issues yourself, or no?

Your question is a hypothetical that according to Jesus' parable is not an actual.  Jesus words in the parable are quite clear, but the forceful emphasis of His main point is what He's after.  This is not a detailed expression of systematic theology, it's a parable.  God approximates the King and we approximate the slave.  The story shouldn't be made to stand on all fours.  Otherwise we have God casting our families into hell for our sins, God being less than all knowing, us having the same power to cast into hell as God, etc....

The main point.  Forgive or you won't be forgiven.  

If your own systematization of the Bible's theology throws a different spin on the issue, then that's your take.  The point is not just this passage but systematizing all of the Bible into a synthesis that is reasonable and does justice to the teachings and emphasis of the Bible.  

I don't believe in dwelling too much in the realm of hypothetical theory because once theories have been formed they can then easily be made to obscure and smear over the practical issues of the real world.

Where there seems to be issues and questions about this or that situation, we have to leave that to God's justice.  He is just and merciful and we ultimately won't know what happened or happens here or there until we are with Him ourselves.    

Ben  

Great points Cris.  The main reason I don't read the KJV is that my comprehension of it, even with work, is far less than with say the NASB or NKJV.  

And I've always wondered what the whole KJV only debate amounts to for a native of India, Mexico, or Ukraine?  They don't speak english, let alone old english.  What should they do?  Learn old english?  They might aswell try Ancient Greek.  And if they shouldn't have to learn another language inorder to have God's Word, then why should I?  Old English is not my language either.  I'm interested in the greek manuscripts and accurate translations from them, not an outdated translation authorized by King James, though other good english language translations preceded it and followed it.  

If the debate is all about manuscripts, then what's wrong with the NKJV?  It would take a lot of convincing before I buy into any universal conspiracy theories.    

That said I don't care whether anyone or everyone reads the KJV as long as they understand it.  I just don't like being looked down upon or disregarded over the issue.  I've seen that happen as many of us have.  My parents were once told that if they don't have the KJV, they don't have God's Word, they just have some other book.  AVBunyan seems to not be divisive over the issue, which shows wisdom on his part (Jas 3).  Following God's Word is what really matters most.    

Anyway just my two cents.  If a KJV onlyer would answer my questions I would listen.  

Ben          

Cris,

  Great question!  I want to put the passage in here, and then I will comment on it.  

_{Mat 18:21   Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22   Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23   "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24   "When he had begun to settle {them,} one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25   "But since he did not have {the means} to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26   "So the slave fell {to the ground} and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27   "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28   "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and {began} to choke {him,} saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29   "So his fellow slave fell {to the ground} and {began} to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30   "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31   "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32   "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33   'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34   "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35   "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."}

As you stated in your post, you are assuming that God is the King and the slave is me or you.  You must assume the slave is saved because otherwise you have God forgiving the unsaved, and that doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture.  That seems to be reasonable at first glance doesn't it?  

So at first glance one may just take a passage like this and think, it is apparent that truly forgiven and saved people can loose their salvation if they later on, won't also forgive others.  This is frankly a major view of this passage and I respect it.  Though I don't hold to this view myself, I believe its practical emphasis to be right on.  It is quite easy to see how some have come to reject the idea of eternal security, in view of passages such as this one.

This idea of loosing salvation seems to conflict with passages that do teach eternal security.  How do we make a theological synthesis here?  

As you read this parable or any parable, keep in mind what you're reading.  Jesus is using this story as an analogy, an illustration to help us understand one of the dynamics of our own relationship with God.  The story isn't meant to have theological precision or to mirror reality in all its aspects.  Rather it is meant to illustrate a main point very forcefully through allusion to the natural order of human existence.  I believe the only really clear theological truth one can draw from this parable is summed up in the final verse.      

Vs. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

God is not the King and we are not the slave.  The King is the King and the slave is the slave.  Yet it is true that God approximates the King and we approximate the slave.  So just as the King did not forgive the slave who did not forgive, so if we too do not forgive, God will not forgive us.  

The important thing to keep in mind when studying parables or really any passage of Scripture, is that Scripture is not written so much systematically as it is written practically.  To put that again in a different way:  Scripture is written practically, not abstractly.  Our modern temptation is to not listen to the main point of a passage, but instead induce abstract ideas from it that don't necessarily follow from it.  While one can say that this parable allows for the idea that a true believer can loose his salvation, it does not necessarily teach that.

So what is the praxis of this passage?  How does it apply to us nomatter what our theological persuasion about when justifcation happened or how fast it happened, or whether we can loose our salvation, etc...?  I believe the praxis is this:  

I don't care who you are or what dealings you think you've had with God.  I don't care if you have been on your knees in tears of repentence for your sins and have felt that you are forgiven.  If you will not forgive your brother from the heart, you will find yourself unforgiven in the end.  This is the practical issue at stake here.  It is the same with the passages that teach that if we deny Christ we will be denied.  

The systematic theological ideas work in the realm of theory, the Biblical writers wrote in the realm of practice and direct truth or fact.  While Scripture contains no contradictions and the theology of Scripture can be systematized as a result- the concern of the writers of Scripture and of God seems not to be systematic theology but practical application in life.  The praxis:  Forgive or you will not be forgiven.  This praxis is the same whatever your theological views about other things that seem to relate.  If anyone allows his theological views to obscure or deny this practical fact, then his theology is wrong and he is in danger of ending up just like the slave.  I feel many have done this or are doing it to others.

The question is not, "When did justification occur?"  It's "How do I know I am justified?"  

That's my view, but if yours is that the slave "lost his salvation," I couldn't disagree with you from this passage alone, nor do I have much issue with this position.  Why?  Because our praxis is just the same in the end.  And that's what Scripture is aiming at anyway.    

One view I do have issue with is the view that "once we're justified" we can do whatever sin and evil afterwards without repentance, and still go to heaven because we are "saved," and it's all of God and not of us.  That's a hypothetical deduction made from one truth, that actually doesn't work in reality because of another.  Hypotheticals are not necessarily actuals.  Before I beat it to death..., or have I already?  I'd better go.    

Great point, and great question Cris.  

Benjamin

God bless.    

Tom,

I saw his post aswell and then went to his homepage.  I enjoyed some of the quotes he had on "assurance of salvation" there.  If that's what he believes then I very largely agree with him.  God bless you both.

Ben  

Tom,

I appreciate your reasonable and kind replies.  It shows that we can discuss issues as Christians without getting inflammitory.  I respect your wish to not want a debate, and since nobody else has picked up this thread either, then there's not much point in continuing.  Let me then make a summation and conclusion, and if you feel that there's anything you want to reply to or add, then you're welcome.  We can take it or leave it from there.  

I guess the issue of "Christians" as you put it, is partly where I'm coming from.  To put my position out, I am not of the camp that believes a true saint can loose his salvation.  I also don't believe a true saint can deny Christ.  But I respect the position of those who believe that true saints can loose their salvation.  I respect their position a lot more than many do, because I feel it has quite strong Biblical warrant.  I am protective of not seeing those sincere believers labeled as being a group who believe in salvation by works, because they clearly are not of that belief at all.  That is accusing them of heresy, when traditionally and Biblically this is clearly an in house debate.    

I also see the position that AVBunyan lays out as being just as dangerous as salvation by works itself.  That may sound like an exaggeration but I really mean it.  His position is as contrary to my own, as it is to those who don't believe in "eternal security."  Because Scripture is very clear that the unrighteous don't enter heaven.  See Eph 4, Gal 6.  If we become too abstract with our reasonings from accomplished justification, we end up giving our pew sitters a false sense of security where they should not have it.  Those who deny Christ either verbally or through an unrighteous life, ultimately are not going to find themselves in heaven nomatter what they thought about justification.  If Scripture clearly teaches it I don't feel it's at all wise to attack it.  We need to be honest with Scripture instead of imposing our own categories of thought upon it.  What does it say?  1 Cor. 6 for instance.  

To say it's either God, or us who we are relying on for salvation, is a false dilemma in this situation.  

We all believe salvation is of God, not of us.  To believe that unrighteous people don't enter heaven has nothing to do with salvation by works.  It is entirely based upon the idea that a truly saved person has been changed from the inside by the God we all rely on.

The following passage sums it up perfectly.  

1 Peter 1:1-9  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.  In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, {being} more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Anyway that's what I was driving at and if anyone wants to continue the discussion you're welcome, otherwise I'm finished.  

Benjamin

God bless!

Right on Tim  

James 3:18   "And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."

That's what it's all about.  Ben

Yes the word adultery is in the text, but so is the word "porneia."  Porneia is the only valid reason for divorce.  If anyone divorces except for porneia, divorcing the woman is what is causing her to commit adultery since in that culture she would need to remarry inorder to survive.  Once a woman is joined to a man, she may not be joined to another without it being adultery, Rom. 7.  

Of course abuse is a very legitimate concern.  It's abandonment, which is the same as divorce.  An abused woman who leaves because she's abused, isn't actually leaving, she's being driven away.  

Marriage is serious business to God.  What God has joined together, let no man separate.  Rather love one another.

Benjamin