[qs]Jesus Christ is reigning now over His Kingdom, but His reign will come to an end when He has conquered all enemies. Then He delivers the kingdom up to God and puts down all rule, authority and power given to Him.[/qs]

And to think you put a   when I referred to you as cryptic.  This really addresses my post, eh?

Well, have a nice life.

[qs]I hope this helps in some way, though I still don't think I understand what you are asking.[/qs]

No, and we can try again if you want, but we don't have to.

[qs]This talk is begining to go in circles. I think I answered this before and told you that it is faith.[/qs]

I don't think this talk is going in circles.  I had given up on it, but this is the first time you've answered me clearly.  Earlier, all the statements you made could mean different things if they were said by different people, and the Scriptures you gave are interpreted differently by different people and different church groups.  I don't know you, so I had no way of knowing even what you were talking about when you were answering me.

Even your "it's by faith" was pretty meaningless.  This post was a lot better, thank you.

[qs]True, God's word was compiled into a book we call the Bible many, many, years after the facts of it being word of mouth in the first century.[/qs]

This you just accept by faith?  I'm a little surprised.  I can't accept this by faith, and I'll give you some reasons.

1.  Neither the apostles nor anyone who personally knew the apostles saw fit to compile all the Scriptures into one book, nor even to tell the churches which books were Scripture.

2.  The people who finally decided on what was Scripture were paid by the government for their position and their churches had wandered far from the life and faith of previous churches.

3.  The people who finally decided on what was Scripture were so divided that to this day different churches use different Bibles; not just the Catholics and Protestants, but also the Orthodox churches, so that there are a number of different canons.

Note:  The Ethiopian Orthodox church includes the Book of Enoch in their canon, which is quoted in Jude's letter.

4.  There are quotes in the New Testament you own that are taken from versions of the Law and Prophets that no one uses except the Orthodox churches.  Thus you have quotes in your "Word of God" which are from versions you no longer accept as the "Word of God."  This is terribly contraditory.  (For example, Jesus quoted "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve," which is from the Septuagint.

[qs]What is the Bible if not the word of God and contains His will for us to live by and obey[/qs]

It is the writings of holy men and prophets whom we trust as spokesmen of the Word of God, who can help keep us on track and provide direction for specific circumstances.  They are not a replacement for the Word of God that proceeds from his mouth that we need today!

[qs]It is all that is needed and it claims this fact from beginning to end.[/qs]

I don't believe it claims this.  In fact, it claims quite the opposite, that we must live by the Spirit of God.

[qs]When does one start? Have you started?[/qs]

I don't understand this question.  One starts now, and yes, I've started.

[qs]It contains all that is necessary to come into Christ's Body and be saved from this untoward generation.
Answer my question. What else is needed by man for man to obey and know what he must obey to be right with God?[/qs]

The Spirit of God is needed.  The words that are currently proceeding from the mouth of God are needed.  The church in Acts needed God's Word through Agabus to know what to do about the famine with their brothers.  We need prophetic words now.  People "pray about" things all time.  Don't they think that if they get direction, then that's the Word of God coming to them, and they need to live by it?

Because people don't know how to obtain the Word of God, they don't know what to do, which brings us to:

[qs]There are locations where God's people are not. All one can do in my estimation is perhaps go among the heathen and teach the truth as did the apostles and preachers in the first century. They went even under the threat of death. Can you? Can I?[/qs]

No, I can't.  I doubt you can, either.  I've met very, very few who could.  It's a gift, and most people need that gift in another person to come to them, they don't have it themselves.

People looking as I've been talking about need the Word of God.  They need the portions of the Word of God that are not found in the Bible, but are found in their heart, planted their by the Spirit of God.  They do not need some preacher telling them to "go into all the world," because that Scripture was for the apostles, not for an untrained, spiritually wimpy American Christian, who doesn't even know what the Word of God is, much less the tremendous warfare they would be entering if they actually had the ability to build a church, which they surely don't.

God told me, "Wait, keep looking."  I did, and I found.  Others need to go somewhere, or to do something different in their workplace, or to find a new job, or to start a new hobby.  Who knows what way God can direct to put someone in his will, but if they don't know that they must live by the Word of God which proceeds from heaven to them, they will perish themselves and help Christianity continue as the embarrassment to God that it is in the West today!

Everything must change for what we see around us to change, our beliefs, our interpretations of Scripture, our behavior, etc.  There is no power in the modern usage of Scripture that can deliver people from sins, bind them together in an inseperable unity, and cause them to see the church and the purpose of God.

As many as are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God.  A people willing to live by the Word of God, which is Christ and not the Scriptures, and are willing to follow him wherever he leads, will find themselves outcast by modern Christianity, because modern Christianity has changed so much from the Truth that they are what everyone including themselves see them to be: weak, divided, and powerless.

[qs]So it takes a lot of searching and time to find that group trying to live as God would have them.
I would avoid Churches most specifically that wear the names of men, or names that do no describe the true ecclessia according to God.[/qs]

This is practical, solid advice; the first I've heard from you.  One problem with it.  Why are you afraid to say where your search led you and what congregation you found, so that others don't have to repeat your same search, or so that others can put your search to the test?

I forgot how Christians resort to chanting Scripture when they can't answer what's said to them.

Ah, well.  Have a nice day and a nice life.

Christ is revealed through God's word to us and what we must do to receive Him and that is sufficient. Nothing else is needed. God has revealed in His word all that is necessary for worship, praise, prayer, SALVATION, REDEMPTION, how to receive the Holy Spirit, His love toward us through Jesus Christ, etc., etc. The word of God is complete for the man of God to be thoroughly furnished unto the works of God.

Christ IS God's Word.  Everything you have said here is true, except that when you say God's Word, you mean the Scriptures, and when the Scriptures say God's Word, they mean Christ, unless they are referring to a portion of God's Word or one of God's Words.  When they refer to "God's Word," they mean Christ, and you do not.  That is the problem.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and always eternally!

Right, according to the Scriptures, he was God's Word in the very beginning; it is only modern Christians who have replaced him with the Bible.  It's an understandable mistake, considering the corruptness of the traditions handed down, but it's not understandable that you and others won't repent of the mistake.

According to Paul, Christ in us (by his Spirit), is the hope of glory and the riches of the mystery of the Gospel.  To most of modern Christianity, that is just a saying, nothing they get to experienc.

Christ in the believers, being the Word of God, not usurped by the Bible, can still unite his disciples, just as he prayed for from God, and create that wonderful, joyous life we read about in Acts.  It's a shame modern Christians are satisfied with a few book readings and a couple meetings a week.

What has God left out that man needs?

Nothing.  But what has man left out that God needs for him to obey?  The Word of God.  It has been replaced by the Bible, which most surely does not even have all the Scriptures in it.

[qs]To Mardis[/qs]

Mardis--I was fine with what you said about one church, but there's one big problem with what you said:

Of course, there are many other characteristics of the Lord's church given in the Bible.  However, these were listed simply to illustrate that we can know what the church is to be in worship, doctrine, benovolence, etc.  There are churches of Christ in many states across America and in other countries as well.

Really?  There are?  How astonishing, since I've asked hundreds of people for a town where all all the Christians are united and meeting together as one people in Christ, and no one has been able to point out even one to me.

Are there churches all over where if a brother is in need, he moves in with his fellow church members, and not with his parents?  Are there churches all over where no one says anything is his own, but shares everything with his brothers and sisters?  Are there churches where the saints are closer to their spiritual family than they are to their natural family?

That is what I'm talking and asking about.  Anything less proves Christ false, since he prayed that the world would know he was sent from God by his disciples having a unity as great as the unity he has with his Father (Jn 17:20-23).  If that isn't happening, why should anyone believe him?

You have suggested that the truth is that the above are arrogrant, who end up alone, and thus hardened by the deceitfulness of sin? Or that they have no idea how to carry it out?

No, I'm saying that I've met lots of people who wish there was only one church, and who are horrified by the division they see around them, and they haven't a clue what to do about it.  I have also seen others who are arrogant enough to be confident of their own conclusions, even though they are all by themselves, offending everyone they meet.

What I have not met is anyone who can actually say, I am in the one church, and I am meeting with it, except for a couple denominations (Boston Church of Christ and Church of God in Christ Mennonite) that are so full of rules that its obvious they are not united in spirit, only in doctrine, and that unity is simply enforced; it's not a unity from God that would cause the world to believe (as Jesus prayed for in John 17:20-23).

I mentioned it, because Ollie's advice is so general that I could produce thousands and thousands of people who have followed it, but I can produce none who are now meeting with the one church as a result of following that advice.

As far as what you say, you have presented an agenda you seem awful confident of.  Do the faithful really know where God is leading or do they just follow?

I am not alone.  I am a part of the church in my town, gathered in one place, united in love, owned and led by God.  I don't mind hearing more from you about what is happening where you are, but I can't say your words inspire confidence in me.

In the end, though, one must see the life of a gathered people to be able to see if they are just one more doctrinal split of the harlot or a people who really know God and are being led by God.

Oh, that there were many, but I cannot find them!

Mardis,

That's great that you believe wholeheartedly with Ollie.  Let me ask you the same question I asked him.  How does a person become part of that church?  I don't mean spiritually be saved and join it.  I mean be able to partake of its fellowship, its daily exhortation, its calling nothing its own and sharing everything, its joy, its assemblies?

One can go participate in a division, picking the best division one can find, but Gal 5:19-21 suggests that divisions, schisms, and factions are works of the flesh.  How exactly does one meet with the one church.  Where is it, as in WHAT IS ITS ADDRESS?

What scriptures did you give against my belief? By the way it isn't my belief but what God says is!

Gosh, Ollie, do you just like being cryptic.

I said that the Bible says Christ is the Word of God.  I didn't bother giving the addresses, because I assumed you knew at least some of them.  John 1:1 and John 1:14 are very good ones, but the Scriptures say repeatedly that Christ is the Word of God.

You and a lot of other people say the Bible is the Word of God, but there is no Scripture for that.  There is Scripture that says the Scriptures are inspired, or that this or that verse is spoken by God.  However, what you are saying, when you say that the Bible is all that the Church goes by, is that the Bible is all of God's Word that is available.   This is false.  The Bible can contain only a very small portion of God's Word, who is Christ.

In answer you have said you have faith that the Bible is God's Word.  I asked you what you have faith in to believe that, since the Bible doesn't say that.  You haven't answered.

A also mentioned the Scripture, from the Master's mouth, that says that men shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not just a few words that once proceeded from his mouth.

And all of this IS about the kingdom of Christ.  You keep talking about something that is not practical or real.  You mention doing things that only lead to the same results that everyone is already getting, division, because the kingdom you speak of is a kingdom of interpretation of Scriptures, not the kingdom of Christ, who is the Word of God.

I have done the things you suggested.  I did them for years.  What I found was that there were no churches of Christ in any of the cities that I looked in.  I suffered for years searching like that.  That is why I am complaining about your impractical and ineffective advice when I asked what could practically be done with what you are saying.

How does one actually find members of the kingdom of Christ gathered together???  In most cities, it is impossible, in my opinion.  In fact, I'd have to hear the exception and go look in order to believe there is one, outside of the one I found after long, long searching!

Great, that was a bit more practical, but I have to be honest and go ahead and read between the lines like everyone else will.

The people who do what you say at the start:

Be in Christ and obedient to God Through Him. Find that assembly of Christians which can be identified in accordance with the bible and strictly adheres to God's word.

are very unlikely to end up agreeing with you.  You will write them off as not Christian, and they will write you off as not Christian.

I am now ready to believe Bronzesnake or whoever it is that said you belong to the Church of Christ, although my guess would be the Boston movement, not the one formed by Campbell and Stone that he mentioned.

Watchman Nee gave a lot of the same advice you are giving, but Watchman Nee made a place that others could come into, and when they needed it, he would start something where they were.

That something Nee started was not likely to be dependent on doctrine.  You seem very dependent on interpretations of Scripture.  You can claim you don't interpret it, just quote it, but the fact is, when challenged to prove the Scriptures were the Word of God, you resorted to "accepting in faith" and to repeated statements of your belief, not Scripture, all the while ignoring the Scriptures I gave you against your belief.

Where the Word of God is honored--all of it, not just the small portion that could be contained in the Bible--there the saints can dwell together in unity and are not held together by trying to interpret Scripture the same way.  Where the Scriptures are upheld as the end all, only division and arguments can arise.

It is through faith that one accepts the Bible as the word of God.

Faith in what?  Even the Bible doesn't say it's the Word of God.  I asked you for a reference, and you answered with "it's through faith."  The Bible says Christ is the Word of God.  If you think the Bible is inspired by God, then at least listen to it and say what it says.  Christ is the Word of God, and he cannot be contained in a book.

Just as in the first century they heard these same words and believed. Today we can not only hear but read and believe.

In the first century they heard way more words than you heard and believed.  You have a very, very small portion of what Paul called the Word of God.  He mentions other letters he wrote, and he said that all the things he commanded were the Word of God, not just the ones in the few letters we have.

In Thessalonians, he says that he brought the Word of God whenever he spoke.  Those things are not all written down.  God's Word cannot be contained in a book.  Even the small percentage of his deeds that were done in the 3 year ministry of Christ would overflow many books.

The Bible says that we shall live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not a few Words that once proceeded from the mouth of God.

Christianity today is in the shambles it is, because of a lack of the Word of God, because against the Scriptures they limit the Word of God to the Scriptures.

And your comment that the Spirit of God is the Word of God is another violation of Scripture.  You use a lot of assumptions that are in conflict with the Bible to back up your view of the Bible.

There are to be no divisions in Christ's church. There is to be no participation in strife and divivisions. Many times there will be only one congregation in town.

So the person who wants to agree with what you say and do the things you say should go hunt down some rare small town in the USA, if it can be done, in which there is only one congregation so that they can avoid participating in strife and division?

The average Christian, even if he agreed with your interpretation of things, would collapse from confusion trying to carry out what you're saying, and you have no practical advice whatsoever to help them.

I know, because I've seen many so confused they eventually became a church unto themselves, just their family in their own house, with maybe a couple friends, just one more fragment, worse fragmented than even the denominations.

It doesn't have to be like that.  Do you have a suggestion for the many who believe like you but have no idea how to carry it out?  Or for the arrogant who claim to, but who end up alone, never being exhorted daily, and thus hardened by the deceitfulness of sin?

What a wonderful thing!  Everyone likes to talk about it.  The life of the church in Jerusalem.  Great grace was upon them.  They praised God daily, and lived with a daily sense of awe.  No one said anything was his own.

David said it right, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to live together in unity."  All Christians agree how good and pleasant it is.

As long as all they have to do is say it, that is.

Where are those who exhort one another daily, while it is called today?  Where are those who actually believe it is good and pleasant for brothers to live together in unity, and so they do it?  Where are those who are so close with their brothers and sisters that they say nothing is their own and share everything?  Where are those who live under great grace with a daily sense of awe?

I see individuals.  I see a "superstar" Christian here or there who goes into the inner city and lives together with underprivileged people in order to help them.

I see the occasional--so occasional it's rare--group of Christians who live together under a legislated sharing.  If people stay in such communities, it is because that is legislated, too, with a long period as a probationary member or a "novitiate."  Otherwise, the community doesn't even stay together, its members moving on as they see fit.

Where is the love of Acts that bound the saints together as one, inseparable, longing to be together, caring nothing of possessions.  The average person would be hard-pressed to find it.

What a horrifying thing it would be if that life, that wonderful life that filled the onlookers with fear and respect for the power of God, were no longer in God's heart.  I don't believe it's out of his heart.  I believe the problem lies elsewhere, with obedience on earth.

Well, you didn't answer my other question, about what you do practically with what you're saying.

Also, you added, "Christ's church has no other guide."

Since "The Book," as you called it says, "The anointing...will teach you all things" (1 Jn 2:27), then how come you say the Scriptures are the only guide?  Do you have any Scriptures which say "The Scriptures are the only guide"?

You said, "The Bible...contains the doctrine of Christ."  I won't argue with that.  The doctrine of Christ, in my opinion, is pretty simple, and the Bible could indeed contain it in its entirety.  However, you also said, "The Bible is the word of God."  It hardly seems possible that any book could contain all of the word of God, and John specifically says no book or books could even contain all the deeds of Christ.

The Scriptures clearly say that Christ is the Word of God in several places.  Can you give any places where the Scriptures say that the Scriptures are the Word of God?  I don't mean places that say some sentence is the Word of God or that some of the Word of God is in the Scriptures.  Is there anywhere the Scriptures say, "The Scripture is the Word of God," like it says about Christ?  Somewhere that says that clearly without us first having to assume its true in order to think that's what it says.

I've never found such a place, nor has such a place ever been shown to me.

The kingdom of Christ must then be the faithful in Christ.

Ok, I agree.  Can I ask you another question?  (I asked a couple in another thread.)

The congregation you get together with; is it the faithful in Christ?  I mean, are all of them, or close to all of them, the faithful in Christ, or do you meet with a mixture of sons of God and sons of the this world, like I've seen in pretty much every other congregation I've ever been able to find.

I've taken note that the sons of this world, according to Eph 2, walk by the spirit of this world.  Thus, a mixed congregation is a  mess.  "What fellowship has light with darkness?"

You have talked about being born into the Church by the Spirit.  Now you have talked about being translated into the kingdom of God.

Do you have any practical way for a person to actually be a part of the assembly of that Church, which is, as you also pointed out, commanded to assemble together.

I do, but since my answer is pretty radical (though it is tested and is working), maybe you have a better or easier one.

The church of Christ only follows the Bible -2 John 9-11; Mark 7:6-7.
The Lord only built one church - Ephesians 4:4-6.
The Lord's church is not a denomination - 1 Corinthians 1:10

Ollie, I like much of what you're saying about the church.  I've said a lot of the same myself.

I have two questions for you.

1.  How do you practically work out what you are describing.  If you attend a local congregation, then unless it's the only congregation in your town, are you not participating in a division?

2.  Do you have any Scripture that says the church follows only the Bible?  Those two passages you gave say we are to follow God.  They say nothing about the Bible.  Since the sons of God are led by the Spirit of God, not the Bible, and since the pillar and support of the Truth is the Church, not the Bible, then why should I believe that the family of God, the pillar and support of the Truth, follows the Bible rather than what it is led into by the Spirit?