Gab,

God be with you and with your spirit.

Thank you for the sweet words and encouragement in The Lord.

Agape

Bairn

[John 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)]

At the time of the reformation, The Catholic Church had evolved for 1500 years. By Luther’s day it had become so mutated as to bear no resemblance at all to the church begun at Pentecost. There is no reason to believe that in the 500 years since the reformation, the human propensities for organizing, traditionalizing institutionalizing and adulterating have somehow been eradicated. The periodic correction, called a revival, comes and brings wonderful new life to the people of God, and is then quickly analyzed and systematized into yet another denomination. Virtually all denominations have seen, at their inception, a “re-forming” work of the Holy Spirit. Mark my words…we are due for a major shift.

As I have been unwittingly drawn away in the flesh, to this futile debate, I have once again seen the amazing tenacity of theological preference and tradition and their power to supplant the living breathing Jesus in our Spirit, to whom we are told to “look away”.  

Bronze and Beps:

Theologians who’s acumen dwarfs ours to ludicrous extremes, have written volumes, some supporting yours, some mine and some other’s interpretations of 1Corinthians 12, 13 and 14. I applaud your energy and dedication to contend for the Word as you read it. My applause stops there, for I have embraced a reading of the same words with all my heart and with the support of honored theologians with whom you would apparently disagree. And so it will probably be among the children of God until we’re called for dinner.

Pastor Roger:

You have a great attitude and a wisdom that I appreciate. Your sharing of scripture and council always comes across with a Godliness that says you truly are a pastor (the biblical kind). I hope it doesn’t offend you for me to say, I find it an oddity that we use “pastor” as a title. It is a function of the body….or perhaps we should all preface our names with our functions.. I am layman Bairn,. kinda catchy

I am moving to and staying in the “testimonies” section of the forum.
Felix, peh and all, I hope to “see” you there.


John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)

Agape, Bairn

[don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.]

Beps wrote:

Brother Bairn,

The subject you chose to debate is the capacity of a person to serve as a teacher or pastor in a church service.

I thought I was debating the capacity of anyone to do all the speaking and edifying in a meeting, the silence of the lambs if you will.

and again Beps wrote:

don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

??

Bairn

[Matt 10:24-2524. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?(KJV)]

Bronzesnake

One more thing and I'm jumping this ship.
You have this battery of blue stars by your name, a big flashing logo and a formidable name “BRONZESNAKE”. I’ve noticed that when ones disagree with you, it always comes down to “just stating the facts” “immature” “childish logic” “naïve” “wishy washy” “wrong my friend” and so on. I only have one little tiny gold star, but outside the cyber-church here, I am a 52-year-old father of two. I grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, I’ve been a Christian for 35 years (long time in the microwave). I am not childish nor do I lightly consider the Word or blithely arrive at what I call logic. Your attempts to quash by intimidation are ill spent... “my friend”.

Your recent statement about the servant not being greater than his master was pitifully misused.

Matt 10:24-25
24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
(KJV)

Jesus was affirming to them (and us) that we will also suffer persecutions. He further illiterates His view of ‘masterhood’ in John 13:12-17


12. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13. Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do
(KJV)

Here is the definitive illustration of  the humility and care expected to operate in a “master” in the Kingdom of God

When you “state the facts”, as you call it about the absurdity of participatory church meetings you are sorely in error. The Plymouth Bretheren and The brethren assemblies (small “b” their choice) have been meeting in the way I have described for a couple of centuries. Their way of meeting grew directly out of the work and ministry of John Nelson Darby (laaaaaaaaats of blue stars). Many other groups meet this way and there is ample scriptural precedent for it whether your “facts” affirm it or not.

Anyway..lighten up…moderate but don’t castigate.

Bairn
 

[What could an uninformed student in one of Paul's sermons possibly teach him?]

Bronzesnake,

We are on two separate trails here. I simply believe that “all may prophesy that all may learn and all be comforted”  not all may lead, all may teach, all may conduct. Willy nilly etc.

Bronze wrote:

What could an uninformed student in one of Paul's sermons possibly teach him?

 I’m going to stretch here and propose that Paul’s students were not uninformed. What would that say for Paul’s fervent laboring? I can imagine Paul receiving no greater comfort and blessing than to hear one of his “students” stand and share a rich testimony from the Life and teaching of The Holy spirit imparted through Paul’s ministry. The student could “teach” him afresh the glorious miracle of God’s transforming work in a once lost soul.


Bronze wrote:

I'm saying that the kind of Church "meeting" or "town hall" that some long for, is an unworkable situation, where any kind of twisted doctrine and cultist attitudes and ideas could freely flow from the uninformed and uneducated in the Word.

I have met this way for years. The situation is totally workable because the members are equal and valued and the shepherds, the leadership, stand watch while the flock feeds together. No twisted, cultist… what you said.
If the pasture gets short the shepherds know where to go next.

Bronze wrote:

Do you really believe everyone who sits in a Church for a year are qualified to lead an entire congregation?

No. I believe a believer indwelt by the Spirit of the living God is qualified to stand and release his portion in the meetings…decently and in order. I believe the body is built by “that which every joint supplieth”. I believe the “professional” clergy have, even if unintentionally, stopped the mouths of the saints, the saints of whom it is said:


Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (KJV)
 


1 Cor 12:18-21
18. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19. And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20. But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
(KJV)

nor again the learned to the babe.

Bairn

[1 Tim 3:6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (KJV)]

PR wrote:

In either case I think that you would agree that a person that is knowledgeable in the word of God should be guiding either group.

Amen PR and thankyou.

1 Tim 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (KJV)

Beps wrote:

Ten minutes of Christian experience and study does NOT make for a teacher.

I agree wholeheartedly. However…

If a new brother or a sister has been to one meeting only, and where, let’s say, a teacher in leadership has taught worship, from Eph. 5:19

Eph 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; (KJV)

Let’s further suppose this new believer has a marvelous experience making melody in their heart sometime before the next meeting.
I’m not saying this one should now stand and teach, I’m saying he or she now has a supply for the body of Christ. We all need to hear this precious word, wrought in this precious saint by the same Spirit that dwelleth in us all. It is a supply of life for the body. I"m talking about something far beyond the tired old token "testimony time" done occasionally, here and there...if time allows sort of thing.

15 or twenty minutes of sound, experienced teaching about Eph.5:19  and then an hour or so of sweet testimonies about Eph.5:19 and..Hallelujah! the saints are feeding together on Christ and His word. This is a living meeting, a building up by that which every joint supplieth.

My 9 year old son spoke up in a home meeting the other day (only the second time he has) and said: "Christ in us is kinda like springtime, the old dead stuff fell off and the new green stuff is all over everything" Seminary level? better. We all saw a precious work of The Spirit and tasted the glory of God at work in the heart of a tender young son of The Most High.


Concerning teaching, Beps, please touch on this scripture, if you would:


1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (KJV)


And again I must add that if a teacher has had no more effect on some who have sat under him for any length of time, than just to create sponges to keep on setting and soaking it in then he has taught very little.
I’m angling here toward the scriptural precedent that seems clear, to me, in the above scripture.

Agape, Bairn

[all]

PR wrote:  


However I find it quite an item of interest to see a person that made such comments about authority on another thread to say what he has said here about all pastors. It seems to be quite a contradiction.

I assume it is me to whom you refer? I don't recall accentuating all in any comments about pastors, If I did I was wrong to do so. I don't recall the comments about authority off hand either.

I do know that the Bible teaches clearly the placing of leadership in the church and that pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. are all legitimate functions in the body.
my concern is that we have misunderstood these funtions to the point of allowing "professional" pastors, teachers etc. to become a class unto themselves. I regret that if, in my sounding off, I may have seemed to judge the hearts of such men.

I must reiterate my inability to see a biblical distinction between bible study and church meetings.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (KJV)

Bairn

[1 Cor 14:30-3130. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.(KJV)]

Whoa! Bronze man! Bad day?

Bronze wrote:
 
“It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.”


Jesus conducted Himself according to the practices of the synagogues when He was there. And you apparently are unaware that, then and now, it is the right and privilege of every Jewish male both to read and comment upon the scriptures in the meetings, beginning at 12 or 13 years old.

Bronze wrote:

"First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place"

First of all, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He preached rarely to Jews. His teachings on the conducting of meetings overwhelmingly describe psalms, doctrines, tongues, revelations, prophesying, being shared by all in attendance. Here is a little key to consider:

1 Cor 14:30-31
30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(KJV)

Paul is talking to unschooled (though Paul suerly taught them much) Greek gentiles… “If anything be revealed”.   What you are missing is that the Holy Spirit was active and vital in these meetings. It is all about the building up of one another “by that which every joint supplieth” I think I can speak for peh, when I say I have not the least disdain for leadership, or Church government or “ordained” teachers. Look what we all gained by The Lord ordaining the un-schooled fishermen and Galileans who wrote a good part of our New Testament. If you have sat in a church for a year or more and are not “schooled” in the scriptures and things of God, why are you still there?

This is the amazing statement:

Bronze wrote:

“There has to be a trained pastor in charge in order to "teach"
If you want to contribute, then go to a Bible study. You can't expect a Church to function with a room full of uninformed, untrained "ministers

Again, what constitutes them uninformed and untrained?  Bad teachers?

Where in the Bible are “Church meeting” and ”Bible study” made distinct?

What I do have disdain for is the clergy-laity system, The clergy class.

If you do an extensive study of the word nicolaitan you will see what it is, about nicolaitans, that the Lord says He hates. The often taught rubbish about the nicolaitans is that they were an isolated, off the wall cult started by Nicholas (of acts fame). A great many scholars agree that “nicolaitanism” is just what the name implies: “nico” conquerer “laitan” the people ie. The laity...Conquerers of the laity (often applied to the Catholic priesthood but, think about it)


1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV)


I spent years in professional entertainment, I recognize the dynamics of entertainment in our westernized church culture…the stage, the audience, the celebrity and the performance.
I quote from my earlier post:

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

I am not negating leadership. I am questioning the towers we have built for them in the spiritual house.  I am condemning the silencing of the lively stones, the Holy Priesthood.


1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (KJV)



Bairn

[Rev 2:2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)]

peh:

The underlying theme in this debate seems to be “contending for the Faith”, as Paul urged Timothy, vs. tolerance, a “holy” buzz-word in the scriptures of political correctness.

The Lord, as all bible students know, had some good things to say and some bad things to say about the churches in Asia written to in Rev. chapters 2 and 3. Most students also realize these letters address much more than just these seven local churches.

Rev 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

How did they “try” them? in court? No. They heard them and found (judged) them liars. Jesus commends them!

OK..I’m new in Ephesus, I’m looking for a good bible church. (oops I forgot they were one per city then) the brothers and sisters at the “Forum” fellowship receive me warmly, but I notice they are stern in their warnings about a cross-town “prophet”. I work hard for days to show them how un-christian their attitude is. I don’t go hear the guy but I know for sure:  

YOU JUST DON’T JUDGE SOMEONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN

One day there is excitement as it is learned a brother has smuggled a letter from the beloved apostle John who has been exiled on the island of Patmos. The excitement increases as we find out that Jesus, through John, has directly addressed the fellowship here in Ephesus. In the body of the letter we find out how very pleased Jesus is with the Ephesians for trying and judging false apostles. “Perhaps”, I consider, “I have misunderstood some teachings about such matters”.

Rev 2:20
20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest (tolerate) that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (KJV)

Shall we assume that this chastisement applies only to prophetesses, fornication and food offered to idols? How about a “prophet” who says he has seen men turned into snakes before his eyes and teaches that the Godhead really consists of three trinities, who foretells the annihilation of all homosexuals from the earth on a long past date, who predicts that soon thousands of people will rise from the dead and watch TBN and others will rise from their caskets that have been placed in front of televisions on which Paul Crouch’s program is airing?

Jesus chastises the Thyatirans for their tolerance of this Jezebel. To tolerate such things angers Him.
You may have been duped into superimposing the p.c. doctrine of tolerance onto scriptures like James 4:11

James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. (KJV)

Do you suppose James would have insisted the Ephesians or the Thyatirans apply this to their false “apostles” and “Jezebels”? They would have lost their commendation from Christ.

Matt 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (KJV)

Judging a false apostleship is not speaking evil of a brother, it is commended by Jesus Christ. We shouldn’t be vitriolic in our condemning these ministries, but we are certainly encouraged to be intolerant and forthright in our judgement.

Agape

Bairn

[Acts 14:21-2221. And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,22. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.(KJV)]

Tibby,

Outstanding question.

 I have long been a fan of some of the Christian writers of a few generations back. In the past four months I have read more than a few of them, especially Andrew Murray. For me, these books are like cool streams in the desert….No “12 steps to a happy marriage”, no “How to Overcome Depression in a Depressed Economy” or Jesus and You..a Winning Team” etc. etc.

So many of these writers from our past, both men and women, are simply all about Christ, abiding in Christ, holiness, dying to self (there’s a popular topic), God’s covenants and so on. The Bible’s thrust and themes are forefront with people like Spurgeon, Whitefield, Tozer and so many others.

The marketing mentality of too many “churches” today is repulsive to me. The quick easy salvation offered is like joining a “really cool” club where you come a couple times a week, hear some great music, some well polished motivational speaking, complete with stand up comedy and drama and enjoy tons of scheduled, entertaining activities.

The message is too often along the lines of: “everything the world is after, self confidence, healthy relationships, prosperity, the sense of belonging and being somebody are available right here and the God of the universe will help you get it if you just “believe”.

You get my drift, I’m sure. I could go on for a few pages. Here is just a couple of scriptures that you won’t hear in the kind of groups you are referring to.



Acts 14:21-22
21. And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)


1 Pet 4:1-2
1. Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2. That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
(KJV)

 As recently as the 1950’s, A.W. Tozer wrote: “Every age has its own characteristics. Right now we are in an age of religious complexity. The simplicity, which is in Christ, is rarely found among us. In its stead are programs, methods, organizations and a world of nervous activities, which occupy time and attention but can never satisfy the longing of the heart. The shallowness of our inner experience, the hollowness of our worship, and the servile imitation of the world which marks our promotional methods all testify that we, in this day, know God only imperfectly, and the peace of God scarcely at all.”

My short answer:  “Seeker friendly churches”….aren’t

Agape

Bairn

[SAYS THEY ARE]

peh wrote:

And so I say the same to you, HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ANONE WHO SAYS THEY ARE CHRISTIAN?

(accents mine)


Jesus wrote and commended the Ephesians saying:

 and- thou- hast- tried- them- which- say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  Rev 2:2b (KJV)

Bairn

Pilgrim,

I read most of the article you linked in your post... a very impressive and well-taken opinion.

 I was thinking, after I read the article, perhaps God has moved a few to stand in the river as we pass over in safety. I shudder to think how far progressed the filth and godlessness would be, if not for God's use of ones like James Dobson.

America stands out alone among the 3,000 years of failed governments mentioned. We began as a God centered endeavor and though the downward spiral seems out of control now, I’m thankful my children have a little of our former blessings intact. It is true that a preoccupation with politics is a great distraction for many Christians. We must be about our Father's business.

 A simple vote (which is a blessed freedom) and a labor of prayer can be mighty and effective to preserve some peace and sanity. Our hope is wasted if we imagine political activity will do any more than just temporarily stem the inevitable tide of darkness. But, my heartfelt thanks to Dobson and others who seem to be gifted and used of God to accomplish a little.

Looking forward to the time of the great Monarchy,

Bairn

Thankyou brothers.
God is strong tower. In His presense is fullness of joy.
This forum is a remarkable medium for fellowship and I have been very blessed here.

Your prayers and understanding are much appreciated.

Agape
Bairn

Wise and studied council brother.

When I used the word theologian I was miles from "pastor".

I tend to think of a pastor as a shepherd (as per the greek word) I realize many pastors are great teachers and expositors, but I was thinking of the dedicated, one thing only,
hunkered over the books and treatises, full blown scholar sort of theologian. Imagine luther or Calvin and volumes upon volumes of endless tediom.

I was not suggesting all prostitutes are posessed. Just that it's possible our world is full of demon activity of a kind other than I was considering with the crowd I saw at the park...
Just people who are miles deep in drugs, sex, violence and darkness. There truly are hell-holes of depravity in evey city and in every country. If Jesus cast out "many" demons in that small mid-eastern locality...just imagine New York or Singapore.

Thankyou for your e-loship

Bairn

After reading your rsponse Pastor Roger, I realize I was unclear in the original post. I meant the sarcasm constuctively (though it seldom is). I am fully aware that there are bonified diseases and physical maladies. My wife is in a wheel chair and in the advanced stages of cancer.

My heart was wrenched over and over at this theme park as so many I saw were screeching and screaming and, as is stated in luke, pining away. I have a brother with advanced MS..wheelchair bound but of a sound mind. He is a Montana cowboy with every reason to be depressed, but God love him he's the joy he has allways been.

How I long for God to stretch forth his hands and heal as the deciples prayed in Acts 4.

Again, sorry I pushed a button. It was a poor choice of words for me as I tried to make a heartfelt point.

Agape

Bairn