crosslight,

If in any way I mistreated you with my words, please forgive me.  This was not my intention.
You had witnessed that you had lost your entire family when you came to Christ, wish to God there were more like you.
Again, please forgive me for any misunderstanding between us.

Luke 14:26-27  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Again, blessings on your head, crosslight.

In Him,
Biff

Thanks Tom:

Great Scripture -- Colossians 2:2 NASB  that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

----------------------------------------

1 Peter 2:19-21  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.  For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Thanks again.

I am sorry, but I do understand.

I didn't mean that you have no understand concerning these things.  Our circumstances differ.  Also, our conscience is clear, and after doing all we can do; without compromising the word of God, we are standing, as we have forgiven them from the heart.  They're not doing it to us but to Christ through us!

It is not hopeless unless you give up.

For 30 years they have known where we stood and heard the truth.  They reject it and have always rejected it.
They don't want to hear it anymore (is putting it mildly).  We're not their saviour.

To say it as simply as I know how - we intend to do nothing!  IF and when we should hear from them and there is a spirit of repentance in whoever contacts us, of course we're ready for reconciliation to THAT person.
But after 30 years and knowing the flesh, knowing WHO I do, and knowing the scriptures well, we're not holding our breath... hope or no hope!

Pray for us.

Biff for Suzanne

Crosslight,

That the life they have chosen is cheap and will let you down in a second.  They find that even after all the work they do, they are not rewarded, not really, not really satisfied.  Then, they will see you and your wife.  They will see that your relationship with the Lord God is real.  They will see that they need Him too.

You don't seem to understand.  They want nothing more to do with us, because of our Lord!  Their sick of Him and us - they rejected us - we're the parents - they left us - there is no more contact - no more communication.  They went their way, and we went ours!  We're as Dead to them as they are to us!   

Have a nice day.

Biff   

My wife and I have been converted to the Lord Jesus Christ for 30 years now.

I'll make this a short story.

Since becoming Christians our family members don't like us, don't want to be around us, nor around who we stand for.  They know what's right and wrong, yet against their own mother they have personally attacked her with words saying that they don't ever want to see her again, and that she has no right to warn them of sending their teen age boy to go live with our homosexual son and his lover for one week undisturbed.
They have no idea of how much their doing that disturbed us, proving they don't really care about us and what they've been taught or about God.

Basically, that was what brought out and it revealed everything in them and where they stood (although we knew it).  They not only protested, but said they wanted nothing more to do with us (we had criticized their plans, roughly twice in 3 years because of the homosexual thing), and even the grandmother (my wife's mother) just got back from spending a week alone with our son and his lover after my wife asked her to please, for her sake, not to go.

Now --- my wife is saddened over the children and her mother.  She understands persecution for righteousness sake.  We did what we knew we had to do, thinking that maybe there was a chance they would see the light.  There's no problem at all in doing that!  She sorrows over her family, and would like it to be as it once was.  But she knows that will never be!  They no longer speak to us, basically because we're Christians who Keep His word, and they want to be free of it!

We both know that persection must come and will come IF that family member is a true follower/disciple of Christ who Keeps God's word  - Matthew 10:34-40; Luke 12:49-53.  (Thank you and bless you, Lord!)

Colossians 1:24b... and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

She, more than I, am filling up those afflictions left behind of Christ because she is a member of the church!  Nevertheless, it doesn't make it any easier when I read her Matthew 5:11-12 or 1 Peter 3:14.

My wife is Very Precious to me, and is next to the Lord Himself.  At times her tears and sorrow for her family (who cut themselves off from her) are real, and I dislike to see her like this (whether inside or on the surface) - yet I know that as Christians none of us can escape Godly persection for the sake of speaking for and standing for the Truth.

Is there some teaching or study that you (who understand) can recommend that I may comfort her with??  Or am I just whistling dixie as I see the words of Paul in Collosians 1 :24 being played out until He comes???

Thank you all,

Biff - for Suzanne

This Is My Story...
http://www.intergate.com/~subi/mystory.htm

[I think the "born again" concept has to be considered. I believe that John 1:12-13 indicate that rebirth happens at the point of belief.]

to txpiper,

I think the "born again" concept has to be considered. I believe that John 1:12-13 indicate that rebirth happens at the point of belief.  

I wonder why most people think that this event doesn't include such life-changing power (in order to become the sons of God) that it is by no means (as some seem to think) a secret or quiet occurance?

Jesus said: You must be born again!
There is no way around this!  It's not an option!  We all must be if we're going to be saved!

Therefore we have to define what "Salvation" means in the light of the Gospel.

What happens when a man is born again? -
 
1 Peter 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

If the above scripture is true to you personally, then He has revealed Himself to you in your spirit, and you can't wait for Christ, for your Love to appear in Person.  You're chomping at the bit because you now love Him so much that all of your rejoicing is over Him with unspeakable joy and one that is full of the glory of God.  You're no longer the same - and never will be - because now you Know The Truth, and The Truth has made you Free!

The Spirit, through Paul, says it like this:

2 Corinthians 5:17-18  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Unless one becomes a NEW CREATURE (BORN AGAIN) IN Christ then how can he be saved?
To become Born Again is to be made Anew, of God, of above!

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Salvation is this - "The forgiveness of sins, as well as victory over them!"  Being saved FROM our sins, as well as our being saved TO God!  Both are necessary if one is to believe that they are truly saved.

Otherwise - James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

God didn't send His Son to merely die for our sins thus forgive them!!!
His Son was also raised from the dead in order for us to get victory of them, by making us a Whole New Creature "Us IN Him and He IN US", one whose heart is now after God.

I have a page on my site that may interest you...
http://www.intergate.com/~subi/born.htm

Becoming "A New Man" after God's own heart, is what Salvation is all about!  Then you can say - OSAS!

May the Lord bless you,
Biff

[[I re-read this, and must apologize for my snide remarks. Even though I am debating you in this forum I want to do it in the right spirit. You should also know that I was a confirmed pre tribber once myself, and know all the angles and what to look for. That's why I say if "God Himself" didn't say it, then I do not want the theories of others to super-impose His word. I hope you'll understand!]]

My dear Dreamweaver,

[I re-read this, and must apologize for my snide remarks.  Even though I am debating you in this forum I want to do it in the right spirit.  You should also know that I was a confirmed pre tribber once myself, and know all the angles and what to look for.  That's why I say if "God Himself" didn't say it, then I do not want the theories of others to super-impose His word.  I hope you'll understand!]

Rev.4:1 ff  It isn't talking about the church at all but about "John"! - CLEAR AND SIMPLE!  (This is a typical pre trib teaching isn't it?  One where the pre tribber thinks they can throw out the rest of the book of Revelations, the Olivet Discourse and parts of Daniel as not applying to the them at all [because they claim they won't be here] but to the Jews instead.)

You say >>>The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God.<<<

I don't know about you but according to simple and clear revelation it says that there  are "7" true churches.  Count 'em!

As for Rev.3:10 and keeping His word where does it show a "pre trib rapture" anywhere in that sentence???
One example - look at how the Jews of old were kept safe during the plagues of Egypt?

I see that you like to use Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

I wonder if you hold Rev. 16:15  in the same way - 
"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."  - right after the sixth vial is poured out???

Or are you saying that there's a difference between His "coming quickly" and "coming as a thief"??

As Christians we are commanded to watch for His appearing!

To this you wrote >>>2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Amen!

However, are you willing to throw in these "appearing" Scriptures as well?? --

2 Timothy 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

(Or do you want to say that His appearing isn't also the same time that He sets up His visible kingdom on earth???  Also, John says that His appearing and His coming ("parousia") are one and the same) --

1 John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.


So with that let me ask you a very pertinent question, friend.
Who gave you your hope?  Who taught you "pre trib"?
 
If your hope is based on the return of an invisble (to the world) Christ 7 years before the end of the great trib. and mine is based on CLEAR AND SIMPLE SCRIPTURES like the Olivet Discourse, then how can we both have the same hope?  For the Scripture says that we are saved by hope - Rom.8:24 - better known as our Blessed Hope!

Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I can , by the Scriptures, assure everyone of that --

Revelation 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I also can, because I believe what "God" (not what "man") says, verify that --

Acts 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And that is - He will appear "Visible, in the flesh... full of power and glory!"

You have yet to show me anything clear.  What YOU SAY is clear is nothing more than "Surmising" and "Speculation" and "spiritualizing" the word based on your theory that everything MUST be made to conform with and fit that doctrine.

Until you are ready to accept the clear and simple word of God AS IS, I'm afraid we're both whistling dixie.

Biff

[without spiritualizing]

To the Dreamweaver.

You stand pretty firm on Rev. 3:10.  Yet who says that 3:10 refers to keeping us out of the Great Trib.?  Where does it say that in there???

Clear & Simple vs Complicated & Confused

You know, Dreamweaver, when I am comparing the Scriptures I find them all to be Clear and Simple just the way they are written. I like it when I let God interpret His own prophetic words for me, just like He says. How wonderfully refreshing it is to simply hear what God is saying, believe and lay hold of it! Don't you agree?

So why is it that you need to be a bulldozer driver, an engineer and a rocket scientist whenever someone else takes and "spiritualizes" the Scriptures to refer to a different time period ("pre-trib") or to mean something else other than what God has already said? They've made it the rule that every prophetic Scripture must be made to fit a certain event and visa versa.

Ever notice how everything is being constantly shifted around ("this Scripture doesn't mean that, or this one goes there, or these books don't apply to us but to the Jews, etc."). They call this, "rightly dividing"!? Note too how everything becomes so complicated and confusing as they take and force God's prophetic word into their belief and doctrine.

What they are doing is taking the word of God and by spiritualizing it they push it with their dozer off of the holy ground of Truth, build many bridges (i.e. "meanings") to try and get around the real meaning, and come up with a system so complicated that no one can figure it out. Know what I mean?

Let me give you 2 examples of what I mean when I say... "Clear" and "Simple":

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Paul says ... "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

and in Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus says... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Now to me THOSE are Very CLEAR and SIMPLE! As a Christian I really don't need anyone to interpret or spiritualize those things to me to understand EXACTLY what is being said. Do you? This is something I can trust and rest MY FAITH upon!

In 2 Thes. Paul is speaking of the coming (parousia) of Christ, and he is saying that that Day that we look forward to when Christ comes and we are all gathered together unto Him, is not going to occur until sometime AFTER the man of sin is revealed. "Let no man tell you otherwise", he is saying.

In Matthew 24 we hear Jesus saying that He will not return until immediately AFTER the great tribulation.
He also warns us, in Matthew 24:25, that He is telling us all these things ahead of time (before they occur) so that there will be no excuses for our not believeing Him.

My question is this, (and many in the pre trib. camp have heard it before) "Can anyone show me, without spiritualizing them in order to fit this or that, any CLEAR Scriptures that pertain to His coming / parousia / appearance / return BEFORE the Clear and Simple words that Paul and Jesus used above to warn us???"

2 questions really - can you show me where the "pre trib. doctrine" was a part of the church's faith BEFORE 1800???

Other Clear Scriptures that need no interpretation.... http://www.intergate.com/~subi/propbit2.htm#25

Thank you,

Biff

I want to thank you all ever so much!
God bless you all!

Biff

Thank you for your comments. 

In Christ,
Biff

[Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53]

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.  Luke 12:51-53 

Hi again,

I thought that I would get far more replies than I did.  (Thanks to those of you who did reply.)  Perhaps I'm in the wrong forum???

My questions were simple -

1.   Has anyone here been persecuted for their faith causing their own family members to hate and dis-own them and want nothing to do with them anymore because of their unwavering stand on God's word and the conflict that develops???

2.  Is this type of persecution a sign of the last days or has it been in effect since Jesus said it???

Thank you,

Frank

http://www.intergate.com/~subi/hard2.htm#i

Thank all of you for your kind words -

The Lord gets ALL the glory, of course.

Biff

I believe I have read the rules rightly.  My story is rather lengthy and I felt it would be better read from my testimony web site...

http://www.intergate.com/~subi/mystory.htm

To God be the glory!
Thank you,

Biff

[Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53]

Hi, I have a question.

Ever since becoming born again Christians many years ago, my wife and I have had trouble with members of our own family.
The problem began when we had both come out of the catholic religion.  As of late it has ended with our own family members (sons and daughters) disowning us, because we stand for the word of God and will not be moved.
Now it's important that you know that we do not PREACH to these adult children over and over again - instead we have taught them in the way in which they should go, and simply expected them to do so.

The problem is that one of them wilfully turned his back on Jesus 20 years ago and is a practicing homosexual to this day.
The other will have nothing to do witrh us telling them how they should raise their kids, as if we told them how they should maybe twice over the past 15 years.  They think we're sick because we have never compromised our faith or backed down from our stand in the Lord.

The youngest member of the family (now 30), wishes we could all forget our differences and just get along with everyone else concerned, even though we told her a "few" times that she has been raised to know better than to wilfully and knowingly fornicate with men (several) against our wishes, and has ended up with an incurable VD.

Now stop and think about all that I have said.  You can be sure that since our conversion and our witnessing Christ to them, that my wife and I haven't gone out of our way to PREACH to these people all the time - maybe ONCE in two years, to show (when we could take no more) them that what they were doing was a terrible sin (like letting their 14 year old son go on a trip alone and live with his homosexual uncle and his lover for a week) and where we stood with the Lord.  They in turn disowned us!

My question is this --

Is this a sure sign of the end???  Or is it to be expected???  Has this ever happened to you???  Are you and your family members (as stated below) divided because of the Truth?  I may not respond but I will read every answer to this thread.
Thanks again.

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.  Luke 12:51-53 

Biff