[and it had ten horns.]

"Kings" are "peoples", Timothy.  And in this instance, it's referring to the "10 horned beast";
 the "man of sin"...."son of perdition", who take over the "little horn" kingdom from it's previous hosts....And the host of that nation ends up "worshipping" them.
The "little horn" is a "kingdom"; or "nation" which,  at one time honored Christ, but "fell away" from him....called the "falling away" in 11Thes.2.

The falling away occured within the "little horn" kingdom; or that which Christ called "the holy place"  in Mat.24.15.

Let me just post the scripture this time.

Dan 7:7  "After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8  "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


Dan 7:19  "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
Dan 7:20  and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
Dan 7:21  "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
Dan 7:22  until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
Dan 7:23  "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
Dan 7:24  'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25  'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


There is a fourth KINGDOM, and there are 10 Kings that rule within this fourth Kingdom.  The little Horn is another KING that rises out of that Kingdom and pulls down three of the other Kings.    I think we both agree that the little horn is the Antichrist.   Not sure where you are getting nations from though.

The falling away in 2 Thes. is not talking about a nation.   Please supply the chapter and verse that says a particular nation will fall away?

Grace and Peace!

Yes, the little horn is anti-(against) Christ, but, the little horn is clearly a nation.
Again, look at the scripture which describes the little horn:

"And out of one of them (out of one of the kingdoms) came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

If the little horn is a man (called Antichrist as you suppose,) then are you saying that Antichrist waxs great to "Christians" on the earth?!

"The falling away is not talking about a nation.  Please suppy the chapter and verse that says a nation will fall away."

Daniel doesn't use the term "falling away"......He goes into more detail by saying, "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and in the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

It's the little horn which cuts off Messiah, and causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease, for notice 8:11-12 (still talking about the little horn.)

"Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and "by him (by the little horn) the daily sacrifice was taken away", and the place of his sanctuary was cast down."
"And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered."

The United States has indeed practiced and prospered since it cut off Christ, and took away daily school prayer back in 1962.....Don't you think?

[As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.]

What nation is the "little horn" which came out of one of the 4 kingdoms upon the earth, and of which Daniel said?:

Sorry to butt in late here, but this is answered a few verses later.

Dan 7:24  'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

The little horn is a King not a nation.  This is not my opinion, but stated from the word.

Grace and Peace!

"Kings" are "peoples", Timothy.  And in this instance, it's referring to the "10 horned beast"; the "man of sin"...."son of perdition", who take over the "little horn" kingdom from it's previous hosts....And the host of that nation ends up "worshipping" them.

The "little horn" is a "kingdom"; or "nation" which,  at one time honored Christ, but "fell away" from him....called the "falling away" in 11Thes.2.

The falling away occured within the "little horn" kingdom; or that which Christ called "the holy place"  in Mat.24.15.

If I'm totally clueless and ignorant of Bible prophecy, then perhaps you could clue me in!......What nation is the "little horn" which came out of one of the 4 kingdoms upon the earth, and of which Daniel said?:

"Out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed ecceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the "pleasant land".
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; (to Christians) and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them".  Dan.8:9-10

So.....which "exceeding great" nation is this, which stomps upon its Christian hosts?!

FayeC,

You have already ignored sound doctrine posted in numerous areas of the board. Your question is already answered. I refuse to argue with you, as I have more important things to do with my time.

I see that you had no interest in answering my questions about JESUS. That told me a lot. Whether you are saved or not is now my concern. Much of the deeper things of the WORD are spiritually discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit, and those deeper things of the WORD would certainly include Bible prophecy. I think that you need to hear about JESUS, and I would love to share JESUS with you. Please start out in the Apologetics area with the FAQ for non-Christians, and many here will help you in any way that we can.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Tom,
That's a cop-out, and you know it.

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior of my life......Now, would you please answer the question I asked of you, which was, "Which nation today is this "little horn" which Daniel speaks about?

God deals with Israel in the End Times. The city is Jerusalem...if you can't see this then you dis-regard both History and Prophecy faye...Here's my point. You can stand there and say that the city is not Jerusalem all you want, but the fact is, that is the place where Christ will set His foot back down on this earth. It would make no sense whatsoever, nor would it follow Scripture, that Christ would set foot in America before He set foot in Israel. Also It doesn't make sense, nor does it follow Scripture, that Christ will be anointed the Holy One in America. That is clearly talking about Jerusalem. Remember that Jesus is the King of the Jews. and they will crown Him king when He comes back and sets foot in Jerusalem! Makes sense considering His Throne will be set in Jerusalem, both old and New Jerusalem. also what is failed to be taken into account is this: The Holy One hasn't been anointed as King of Israel by the Nation of Israel yet, the 70th week has not begun because there has not been a covenant between the antichrist and the nations., there has not been an end put to transgression...Israel is still a desolate nation spiritually, and Iniquity still hasn't been put to an end because of the fact that there is still violence in Israel at the moment. So to sa y that this was fulfilled in 1962, isn't right.  Also, the abomination of Desolation is clearly seen to have been done in ISRAEL considering the Temple Mount and the New Temple will be located in Jerusalem.  Jesus said that when they saw the Abomination of Desolation that He told them to flee to the mountains of Judea. Now how in the world, are we going to flee to the mountains of judea after the judgements of God? what you've posted doesn't make sense and I don't see how it lines up with Scripture, faye. So sad...I will follow Timothy's lead and i wont bring this to contention. God Bless.

Joshua

Would you please pull up the quote in which I stated that Christ would set foot down in "America"?, and that He would be anointed in "America"?

I simply don't recall saying that, nor WOULD I say that.

[UM??? - So what would it be?]

FayeC Said:

And yet..... knowing all these things are true which you pointed out about our nation, gary, most Bible believing Christians will call one a false prophet if one suggests that America is end-time "Babylon".

FayeC,

I would simply say that one suggesting this is totally ignorant of Bible prophecy and clueless. If the person suggesting this wasn't clueless and ignorant, I would question their agenda and what they hoped to accomplish with such a twisted and distorted lie. It certainly couldn't be for the edification and encouragement of Christians still standing and still trying to yield to the Will and Use of God.

UM??? - So what would it be? Could one take this a step further and say that Christians are doing the work of the devil? One could read between the lines and easily see it could be for the purpose of silencing Christians by confusing and discouraging them.

FayeC, I would simply ask you if you are trying to talk to America or the Christians in America? Which one? I will also tell you bluntly that you need to do a beginner's study on Bible prophecy before you try to teach it.

A recent post of your's that I deleted as being totally racist makes me wonder how easily you are sucked in to every deception and excuse for doctrine that comes down the pike.

Who is Jesus Christ to you?

What do you believe about Jesus Christ?

Love In Christ,
Tom

2nd Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If I'm totally clueless and ignorant of Bible prophecy, then perhaps you could clue me in!......What nation is the "little horn" which came out of one of the 4 kingdoms upon the earth, and of which Daniel said?:

"Out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed ecceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the "pleasant land".
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; (to Christians) and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them".  Dan.8:9-10

So.....which "exceeding great" nation is this, which stomps upon its Christian hosts?!

I think we are in a great falling away now .as hardly any one trusts in the LORD for anything .we trust the doctors ,lawyers ,friends .family ,police ,anyone but JESUS CHRIST .And our nation is spilt ,,between 2 partys ,with neither right .we are in a mess .involed in every nation on earth .our own in deep trouble . I really don"t see much hope for the world and our nation .I think if we go down as a righteous people ?which we are not now .Then evil will have its way on the earth .The rapture would cause this nation to fall in darkness .GOD had blessed this nation greatly .But now I think ,HE hates the evil we do .killing millions of little babys and teaching everything evil to our kids .everything on t.v. just about evil .even our so called christain programs . only the greatest of miracles can change us .But I fear it is too late .as I believe MY lORd is soon returning .I awoke a while ago ,with a song in my mind over and over I heard .people get ready ,the LORD will be coming soon .It may mean nothing .But it stayed in my mind over and over while asleep then while awake for a very long time .BUT you know the LORd said ?pray you are worthy to go .and for us too be looking for hIS coming .

And yet..... knowing all these things are true which you pointed out about our nation, gary, most Bible believing Christians will call one a false prophet if one suggests that America is end-time "Babylon".

And God forbit should one suggest that "the falling away"  commenced in America when we took away daily prayer from our nation's public schools.

And to suggest that "the taking away of those daily prayers"  is what Daniel was talking about when he spoke of "the taking away of the daily sacrifice", will get one branded a heretic.

Is it safe to say that America is worshipped by the Christians within her?  I believe so.

"And they worshipped the dragon (Babylon) which gave power unto the beast, and they worshipped the beast, saying........"  Rev.13:4

FayeC  

It is quite obvious that Jerusalem is is the City that Daniel is talking about...because he even names the city in 9:25.    It is also quite obvious both Jesus and Daniel were talking about the Holy Place in the temple of God.   When was messiah cut off?   In 1962, or when Christ was crucified?    I wish to be gentle here, but you are translating things in scripture that need no translation.   The text makes plain sense.  Why do you seek sense that fits a model, rather than letting the text speak for itself?   We could make up anything we like about the text this way.

China for example forbids Christian prayer in school.  Its against the law to own a bible.  People caught preaching the gospel are thrown into jail.   BTW there was a China/India  War in 1962!   Theres the threescore and two weeks!    Using this method of interpretation, I could argue that Daniel was surely talking about China more than America.   See what I mean?   We can make it mean anything we want this way....But we both know Daniel is not talking about China.  (at least I hope we do)


I really mean this in the nicest way possible.   It just appears you are spiritualizing every other word for the sake of making it fit your pre-conceived idea.   This will only lead to errors.  

When the text make plain sense, seek no other sense.  

Grace and Peace!

Tim,

Daniel is NOT talking about "Christ's crucifiction" in 9:26!...He's talking about the end of the age when the "falling away" occurs!

It would appear that you are the one confused, along with most of the church world today, I might add.  For many, if not most today believe as you, but you and they are wrong.

Both Daniel and Revelation is about things which occur in the "last days" leading up to Christ's return.
According to Dan.9:25, the last days commences when Israel is restored as a nation.  That occured in 48....thus we have been living in what is called the "end-times" since 1948.  And the things written in 2Thes.2, and Daniel, and Revelation, and Mat.24:15, along with Romans 1, and a host of others, is  about none other than America; the once mighty Christian nation of which "the host" has turned their backs on God.

THAT'S what those scriptures are about, and until you realize that, you'll continue to be confused.
 

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.  

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?

FayeC, you are not alone in this belief.   Many see America as Mystery Babylon.    They make a compelling argument too, but to me it does not agree with everything said about Mystery Babylon in scripture.

First of all, the falling away you mention is never isolated to one nation.   Yes it may happen in large in America because of the numerous believers who reside here, but scripture does not mention a nation falling away in regards to the Apostasy.

As for Mystery Babylon, the angel describes her as a city, sitting on seven hills over many tongues and people.   She rides the beast rising up out of the water.   She is drunk with the blood of the Saints and PROPHETS.   Some try to say New York is the city, but New York is not responsible for killing saints and prophets, at least not so far.  

Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

7 Kings, five are fallen, and one is, and another is to come.   To be a king, one needs a kingdom.   Who were the five fallen Kingdoms before Johns time?   Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Assyria....all fell before Johns time.  Now (Johns time), one IS and one is to come, and when it does, it will CONTINUE for a short time.  Which Kingdom was around in Johns time?  ROME!   We know that kingdom also ceased to exist, but yet the EU today calls itself Revived ROME...continuing!   Thats 7 kingdoms, 5 fallen, one that IS (or was in Johns time) and one that was to come, and in our day HAS returned!   The woman that rides THIS beast, will be a city, and will sit on 7 hills, will rule over many tongues and people, will use sorcery, have great wealth, and will be responsible for killing Saints and Prophets.   Hardly seems to fit America when viewed scripturally, at least to me it doesn't.    

Notice also that the 10 horns will hate the whore and give their kingdoms over to the beast (Rome as I see it)...

Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This may sound similar to America also, but again, America is not a city on seven hills, nor does she reign over the 10 horns (10 members of the new revived Rome).   For America to match the harlot, it has to agree with Scripture 100%, not just sound similar.   Its highly likely that Mystery Babylon will not be known for sure until after the rapture takes place, but it is already becoming clear who the 10 horns are, and America hardly seems to be controlling them or riding on them.  

Who knows, maybe America will fit the mold better in time, but right now it does not IMO.   America seems to be too hated by the rest of the world to have any hopes of ruling the EU or many other nations.   We will just have to wait and see....but I'm not sure Mystery, Babylon the Great will show its ugly head until after the rapture anyways.


Grace and Peace!

(edited for spelling errors)

Oh yes, the "falling away" is indeed isolated to one nation, for it goes hand in hand with the "abomination of desolation".

Jesus said in Mat.24:15 that the falling away and the abomination of desolation would happen in "the holy place", and for us to understand where "the holy place" is, he points us to the book of Daniel.

Dan.9:26 says, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy "the city" and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined."

"Threescore and two weeks" means the year 62.  1962 is the year in which daily prayer was removed from America's schools, thus "Messiah was cut off".

"The people of the prince" (prince of darkness) in that verse means "the beast"; the son(s) of perdition.

"City" in that verse means the "little horn"; or Revelation's "Babylon".  Translated, they mean "America".

"Sanctuary" means "the Christian Churches in America.

Please don't underestimate what America may do in the future in regards to the killing of the saints and prophets in our nation.  Even now America will not allow for Christ to be mentioned at Christmas in the classrooms of this country.
Better ask yourself, "What if in the future, the Christians in our nation began to defy the laws which America has enacted against Christ.  What do you think might happen to them?, especially during the tribulation.
Just something for you to think about.

2nd Timothy Said:

He is talking about a falling away=defection from truth!  While I would agree this appears to be happening in America, it would be missing the meaning to say it will only take place in America, or a particular nation.  It will be world-wide!

2nd Timothy,

Brother, one doesn't need a very high IQ to determine that most or all of the nations of the earth are far more advanced in falling away than America. AND, it is definitely world-wide, obviously including America.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 46:1  God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

CORRECTION.....It's talking about a falling away "from the God of the Bible".  And it's talking about a spacific "place" where that occurs; namely "Babylon".

[s]

FayeC said...

Again, that is what Paul was talking about when he wrote in 11Thes.2 about the "falling away", and about the "son(s) of perdition" which would come to be exalted above God's people in that nation, and above God himself.

Where does it say son(s) of perdition or nation in that verse?   Son is singular, and nation is absent.

He is talking about a falling away=defection from truth!   While I would agree this appears to be happening in America, it would be missing the meaning to say it will only take place in America, or a particular nation.   It will be world-wide!

Grace and Peace!

"It will be world-wide!"

I don't believe so..........If you notice, "Babylon" is the first thing John sees coming out of the sea in Rev.13.  Thus, it is within Babylon that the worship of the beast takes place.

"Son is singular"

The prophet Daniel referred to the "son of perdition" as "the people of the prince" in chapter 9:26.
And though Rev.13 says, the beast is a "man", that doesn't necessarily mean that he is an "individual" man....it most likely means that he's a "type" or "race" of man.

"and nation is absent."

But "Babylon" isn't!.....And we know from reading the description of Babylon in Rev.18, that it is a distinct place, and that place is a dead ringer for America.

"If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him."  1Thes.4:14

That verse tells us very plainly that it is "those who "died" in Christ" which Jesus brings back with him.  

This is true!   However, to be resurrected, one must first die.   Paul revealed that not all would taste death, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and be caught up to meet those resurrected and the Lord in the air.   The blessed hope!

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

The Resurrection is a promise to the sleeping.  The rapture is a promise and hope for the living!

Grace and Peace!

So, are you saying that "the resurrection of the dead takes place at the pre-trib rapture"?

[trump of God]

I really have grown tired of debating the pre/post trib rapture...

Ya, me too. I'll look through the debate about the rapture at some point.

God clearly tells us that we are not appointed to wrath. If you believe what God says, then you must conclude the rapture occurs before the wrath...now, if you believe the rapture occurs post-trib, when does the wrath occur?

I believe the 7 seals and the scroll that John saw are a sort of summary of all that will happen. Just like the first book of the bible gives an overview, and then goes back to describe things in more detail. The 7 trumpets will be sounded throughout the tribulation, and the last one will mark the end of the tribulation. Jesus will come back for his people "at the last trumpet." Then God will pour out his wrath on the world with 7 bowl judgements.

 That doesn't really make sense to me JitC. First off - It's plainly stated in Revelations that very specific judgements are bestowed upon the inhabitants of the earth following each trumpet sound - so your explanation of an "overview" just doesn't fit what is clearly written in the Bible.

 Also - you're separating wrath from tribulation. Tribulation means a time of great trouble - the cause of the time of great trouble is God's wrath...they go hand in hand. In your scenario, the tribulation ends so that Jesus can rapture His people - then, the tribulation begins again with the 7 bowl judgements. At what point of the 7 final years do you believe the rapture will occur? at the end? if so, then how long do you believe the 7 bowl judgements will last?...it doesn't make any sense my friend.

 Many Christians confuse the "last trumpet" with the final trump of God.
 I think you should re-examine a couple of verses - such as...


 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 The above verse clearly makes a distinction between the "last trump" and the "trump of God" This is the last time we find "God's trump" mentioned throughout Revelations. The remaining verses clearly describe trumpets being blown by angels, and not God, as 1Th 4:16 clearly describes.


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 The Rapture occurs at God's last trump...not the "final trump"

 Bronzesnake

"If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (died) in Jesus will God bring with him."   1Thes.4:14

That verse tells us very plainly that it is "those who "died" in Christ" which Jesus brings back with him.  

I got a feeling you people won't be dancing by the time his term is up.......In all likelihood, you'll "probably" be crying.  

America has fulfilled every single end-time prophetic word written about that nation which falls away from Christ.

The prophetic words of the Bible began to take shape when, back in the 60s America took away daily school prayer, (which is called "the daily sacrifice" in Daniel.) That incident was the catylst which caused the "falling away".

Whereas, we now have come to a time in which our schools are worshipping any thing and any one "except" Christ at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

What we're now seeing in America is that which was prophesied by the Apostle Paul in Romans 1 when he wrote:

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (And) who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) more than the Creator.

Right now, in the schools across America "Kwanzaa" (the celebration of African Americans) has, in addition to other  gods, become a part of the Christmas programs.

To me, that is the most damnable thing which has ever taken place in our schools, for it is teaching our children that the black man is equal, if not superior, to Jesus Christ.

Again, that is what Paul was talking about when he wrote in 11Thes.2 about the "falling away", and about the "son(s) of perdition" which would come to be exalted above God's people in that nation, and above God himself.

Gee!, I must be living in the Twylight zone.  

While everyone else doesn't see the U.S. in prophesy, I seem to see it in much, or a great deal of it!

In fact I believe it is the U.S. which Daniel writes about in chapters 8 through 12 of that book........And that it is the U.S. which John writes about in Rev.13, 17, and 18.

And that the things written about the U.S in those 2 books are summed up in 11Thes.2 when Paul writes about the "falling away".

Where is it on the earth that you all believe the  "falling away"  occurs?