Ollie -

The secular trappings of Christmas, the tree, gifts, family get togethers, the pagan additions, etc. are not worship in themselves unless one makes them worship or does them in worship.

Well, some people try to force a connection to Christ with these pagan practices, i.e. "resurrection eggs" for easter (Ishtar) eggs, having a Christmas tree because Christ died on a tree and things like that I don't agree with.

(Speaking with my tongue in my cheek) One has to bow to the Christmas tree to place and retrieve the presents underneath it. How do you feel about the song "O Christmas tree"? Sounds like a worship song...

Hey, did you guys know that practicing Christmas was against the law in early American history? Interesting, isn't it?

Reba -

You asked if Israel ever had all the land that God promised them. I don't believe they did. Here are some scriptures in Judges:

Judges 1:21 But the sons of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites who lived in Jerusalem; so the Jebusites have lived with the sons of Benjamin in Jerusalem to this day.
 27 But Manasseh did not take possession of Beth-shean and its villages, or Taanach and its villages, or the inhabitants of Dor and its villages, or the inhabitants of Ibleam and its villages, or the inhabitants of Megiddo and its villages; so the Canaanites persisted in living in that land. 28 It came about when Israel became strong, that they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but they did not drive them out completely. 29 Ephraim did not drive out the Canaanites who were living in Gezer; so the Canaanites lived in Gezer among them. 30 Zebulun did not drive out the inhabitants of Kitron, or the inhabitants of Nahalol; so the Canaanites lived among them and became subject to forced labor. 31 Asher did not drive out the inhabitants of Acco, or the inhabitants of Sidon, or of Ahlab, or of Achzib, or of Helbah, or of Aphik, or of Rehob. 32 So the Asherites lived among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; for they did not drive them out. 33 Naphtali did not drive out the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh, or the inhabitants of Beth-anath, but lived among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; and the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh and Beth-anath became forced labor for them. 34 Then the Amorites forced the sons of Dan into the hill country, for they did not allow them to come down to the valley; 35 yet the Amorites persisted in living in Mount Heres, in Aijalon and in Shaalbim; but when the power of the house of Joseph grew strong, they became forced labor. 36 The border of the Amorites ran from the ascent of Akrabbim, from Sela and upward.

Judges 2:20 So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22 in order to test Israel by them, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk in it as their fathers did, or not." 23 So the LORD allowed those nations to remain, not driving them out quickly; and He did not give them into the hand of Joshua. "


2Tim -

You asked:

Did God ever bless all the families of the earth through Abram and the promise?

Yes, He did. And you are living proof:

Gal. 3 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Well, there's my 2 cents.

Take care,
Chesed

BigD -

Hey, I was wondering what covenant do you believe you & gentile Christians are a part of? If a Jewish person becomes a Christian does he loose his covenantal status?

Thanks,
Chesed

[that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?']

Pilgrim -

Yes, the idea that the building used by the Israelites in Shiloh was a former pagan temple is speculation or an "educated guess." We know that Shiloh was a religious center to the canaanites, it was a "high place." The children of Israel in Joshua's time set up the Tabernacle at Shiloh when they conquered the land. The Tabernacle was later destroyed by the Philistines. After that they met in a mysterious "heykal," one that there is no record of God's instructions to them to build a Temple. This is in contrast to the vast, very detailed instructions God gave to Moses to build the Tabernacle, to Solomon to build the first Temple in Jerusalem, and to Ezekiel for the future Temple.

Throughout Israel's history, paganism has been a snare to them, and even still God was patient with them, punishing them after many years and many warnings. But they were still His People.

I think there's a similar situation with today's church. A lot of paganism has seeped into the Church over the course of hundreds of years. But we all still worship God. And I believe He will deal with the pagan influences and traditions of men in time.

In Deut. 12, God says, 28 "Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. 29 "When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' 31 " You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 " Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. "

Definately, I believe this passage relates to Christmas and Easter and the related practices. Christmas trees, wreaths, easter (named after the pagan godess Ishtar) bunnies and eggs are all pagan symbols of fertility and have nothing to do with Christ and should have no place in worship of Him.

Most people I know who celebrate Christmas, don't do it because they feel convicted to do it. Most of them do it because of nostalgia, tradition, and fun. I know that for my sister, even though she tries to create ties to Messiah's birth, it is mostly the nostalgia, tradition and fun that's at the heart of her Christmas keeping. Yet, I have no doubt that she is a Christian, that she has given her life to the Lord and she worships Him in so many other ways. I know many Christians like this.

So Pilgrim, you are part of a minority in Christianity not celebrating Christmas. Do you go to a congregation where others feel the same as you do? In trying to weed out the paganism in the way you practice Christianity, do you also keep a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath, instead of Sunday -- as instituted by Constantine in honor of the venerable day of the sun (god)? Just curious...

Take care,
Chesed

[For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast,]

BlueLake -

Would you care to comment on the two cups in the New Testament? We, as Christians are under the New Covenant.

What was Jesus doing when He said, (Lu 22:19)
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

He was partaking in the Passover meal.


In 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Paul says, "Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

FayeC -

To understand these scriptures, and who the beast is, one must first determine where Babylon is, and what is meant by "the daily sacrifice".

The problem you have here is one of hermeneutics. You need to use other scripture to help you understand scripture. When it talks about the "daily sacrifices," it is talking about the daily sacrifices offered by the levitical priests according to the Torah. When scripture refers to Babylon, it is referring to the geographical location called by that name. Can you find any other place in scripture when it refers to some geographical location but really means another? I can't think of one.

The problem with allegorizing scripture this way is that it leaves interpretation of scripture entirely up to traditions of men.

Take care,
Chesed

Hi there Pilgrim -

Why do you believe the temple was a pagan place of worship?

Well, first of all the temple we are talking about here in Samuel is before the first Temple in Jerusalem built by Solomon.

The Hebrew word for temple here in 1Samuel is "Haykal" which means temple or palace (Here's the concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1100883630-3624.html), but "haykal" is not used previously in the OT to refer to the tabernacle.

1Sa 1:9 “So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD.”

The Hebrew word in this verse for "post" is "mezuzah" which is doorpost. The tabernacle didn't have doorposts, because it
didn't have any doors.

1Sa 3:3 “And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;”

If this temple in Samuel were a legitimate temple or the tabernacle, the ark of God would be in the Holy of Holies and Samuel would not be allowed to sleep there.

Also, this temple is in Shiloh which is on a hill. The pagans used high places to build their temples.

So it seems that the children of Israel used this former pagan temple as a temple to worship God after the exodus from Egypt (there are references to this temple in Shiloh in Judges), and before Solomon's Temple.

So going back to the Christmas issue, I think this is a great analogy of how God does still accept the worship of the sincere, despite the pollution of paganism. I'm not using this to say that it is good to allow pagan practices. I think we should strive to worship God the way He asked us to worship Him. Obviously, there were negative consequences to the influence of paganism to the Children of Israel all over the Bible.

Take care,
Chesed

Well, here's my 2 cents on the issue:
 
I've come across many people who believe that all methods of birth control are sinful except natural family planning (NFP). However, if one is using NFP as a means to prevent pregnancy, I don't see the difference between that and someone using a means of birth control as long as it is not a means that is abortive. You should research and find out which ones are abortive. I know that the IUD is abortive, and I have heard that Birth control pills can be.

I know some people who are "full quiver" people. They believe that pregnancy should be left up to God and you should allow whatever happens to happen. I greatly admire these people, some of whom that I know have 5, 8, or 13 children. These mothers seem to be up to the task of having many children and I am so happy that God has blessed them.

I, however, do not feel qualified for such a task. I feel that the most important part of raising children is to make sure that I raise them to walk in truth, having fellowship with the Lord. Just judging myself and what I think I can handle, I don't think I would be able to do this if I had many children to raise.

And I have seen people who have large families, with only 2 years between each child and 9 months of those 2 years being spent pregnant with the next child, I know that I would not be able to handle that. When I am pregnant I am terribly sick for at least 4 months, only being able to keep down my breakfast every day. It's hard to be a good mother when you're miserable like that. Not to mention that going through this every 2 years is very hard on a woman's body, especially when your bodies nutrients are going toward the developing baby. Yet I know of some women who never feel better than when they're pregnant, and would love to be pregnant all the time.

So basically I think it's fine to say that it should be up to each couple to decide what they could handle, how they can best raise their little ones to serve the Lord. What a loss it would be if we had 20 children, but they grew up to deny the Lord because their parents were to distracted by having so many kids! I'm not saying that this happens with all families that have lots of kids. I'm just saying that I have seen this sort of thing happen when a couple has many children and the parents feel overwhelmed by them. I would rather be the proud parent of 2 or 3 Godly children than 20 rebelious children. But if someone feels up to the task of raising 10 or 20 Godly children, I think that's great, I wish I could. Children are a blessing from God, make no mistake about that.

Hi all -

Pilgrim, I completely agree with you about Christmas. It is from paganism. What fellowship does darkness have with light? I am glad to see some Christians reject it. I agree that we should (gently) encourage our brothers and sisters to reject celebrating Christmas.

I remember reading in my history class how many pagans were forced to accept Christianity during the reign of Constantine. These pagans had no problems at all switching gods. But they had a difficult time giving up their traditions. This is where we get Christmas and Easter (as well as other things). A good analogy to this would be if you were to marry someone who was divorced or widowed. How would you feel if your spouse celebrated your anniversary and birthday on the days he/she celebrated his/her former spouses anniversary and birthday? Well, if you were like me, that wouldn't fly. My husband would be in the dog house if he brought me flowers to celebrate the anniversary he had with his ex-girlfriend.  

My sister is the only other person in my family who is a Christian walking in faith. She celebrates Christmas. I have no doubts about her sincerity and her salvation. However, I know that her worship of the Lord in celebrating Christmas gets clouded by Christmas trees (3 of them this year!), decorations, presents, parties, etc. I know this also from experience, I grew up celebrating Christmas like this. Christ gets lost in the hustle-bustle of the season. That's why people have to remind each other, "Jesus is the reason for the season."

One of the families of my congregation decided to stop celebrating Christmas a few years ago. I was talking to the mother of the family as she described discussing this change with her children. She asked them what was the hardest part for them not celebrating Christmas. She said they were ashamed to admit it, but it was hardest for them to give up the Christmas presents.

Even though I don't agree with celebrating Christmas, I do believe that God is still honored by the sincerity of my brothers and sisters who do. I want to point out that the "temple" described in I & II Samuel, was most likely a pagan temple, yet God called out to Samuel from that place and accepted sacrifices and worship there.

I think if we celebrate the Biblical festivals that God calls for in the Bible, we can't go wrong: By celebrating Passover, we are remembering Jesus' sacrifice for us. By celebrating the feast of First Fruits, we recognize that Jesus resurrected and was the first fruits of the dead. By celebrating the feast of weeks (Shavuot) or Pentecost we are celebrating the giving of the Holy Spirit. By celebrating Rosh Hashana, we are celebrating the time when our Messiah will return. By celebratin Yom Kippur (day of atonements), we are celebrating the atonement we have through Messiah's blood and that only through His blood can we stand through the Judgement Day. By celebrating the feast of Tabernacles (sukkot), we celebrate God becoming flesh and dwelling among us. By celebrating the feast of Dedication (Hanukkah), we celebrate being separate and not assimilated in this world, that we are "the light of the world." (It's interesting that Hanukkah this year falls during the darkest week of the year, when the days are the shortest.) It's also interesting how each Biblical festival is so intrinsically tied to Messiah and our salvation through Him -- that's the way God designed it.

My pastor says, "You'll never see a Passover edition of Playboy magazine."

Nana re-Quote:
I believe that the premise of "doing something" for God is the false base from which a Torah observant lifestyle is founded.

Nana –

I’m not talking about salvation here. You and I both agree that we are not saved by works. But do you concur that good works should result from a person who is saved? Doesn’t it please God when His children do His good works?

Do you think one who has professed faith in Jesus should be baptized? Do you think anyone is saved by being baptized? Would you say that being baptized is showing symbolically that you are consecrating yourself to God? Would you not say this is for sanctification?

[for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God.]

MalkyEl -

Jesus said that a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf.

Actually, Paul says this. But you are taking this verse (and other verses) out of context.

The inference here, is that Jesus needed a contaminated source to declare His Truth.

I'm not saying He needed it to declare His truth, I'm just stating that He did use the oral tradition of His day to teach and sometimes chastise the Pharisees. It is a statement of fact. Here is an example:

Matt 15:3 3 He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and your mother,' and, "Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.' 5 But you say that whoever tells father or mother, "Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God,' then that person need not honor the father. 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied rightly about you when he said: 8 "This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines.' "

You see? Here Jesus references their oral tradition to accuse them of hypocrisy and not honoring God's Torah. It shows that Jesus knew what the oral tradition was of His day and He spoke with the authority given to Him by God to teach them the truth.

I'm sure it would be no different if Jesus were to come to us today, and point out the errors in the Church today, he would refer to Church doctrine (of man) that was against God's word.

Do you really think He would use something that declared Himself to be accursed to teach from?

Actually, Jesus refers to oral tradition, which was codefied by the Talmud later. The Talmud didn't exist during the time of Jesus, but the oral tradition that is contained in the Talmud did exist at that time. And the writings in the Talmud calling Jesus cursed certainly didn't exist during Jesus' day and were added much later. Even the article you quoted stated that toldot yeshu was written during the Middle Ages.

Note: Jesus' references to tradition are not exactly positive. If I remember correctly, He called the pharisees white washed tombs because of their traditions and fencing.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. And sometimes Jesus uses very cryptic language in his parables to blast the Pharisees. Sometimes this cryptic language is related to the oral tradition of the day (just as this article, Yeshua's New Wine I posted points out). How are we going to understand Jesus when He symbolically alludes to oral tradition, if we don't know anything about oral tradition?

Note: reclining at meal time was part of the culture.

That may be. In the Ma Nishtana, one of the 4 questions is: "On all other nights, we eat sitting or leaning, But on this night we all lean."

If it was so common to recline at meal time in that culture, why did the Sages feel it was necessary to command that those celebrating the Passover meal to recline?

Shalom,
Chesed

[does not subject itself to the law of God,]

MalkyEl -

Lev 20:7-8 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.  And you shall keep my statutes, and do them: I [am] the LORD who sanctifies you.  

Look, it's both something we do and something God does in us!

The word here in Hebrew is "qadash" which is related to the Hebrew word "qadosh" = holy. Qadash is to make something holy.

Nana, it seems to me that you are confusing the terms salvation with sanctification.

No we are not saved by our works. We are saved by faith. But faith without works is dead.

I believe that the premise of "doing something" for God is the false base from which a Torah observant lifestyle is founded.

The only way anyone can please God by keeping Torah, is by having faith in Jesus the Messiah. Good works happen as a result of our faith:

 Eph. 2:8-11 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand (Torah) so that we would walk in them.
 
The work of the Spirit in our lives is the Spirit inspiring us to keep God's Law:

Romans 8:3b-9 He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

MalkyEl -

I don't know very much about the Talmud, I have only read bits and pieces. But I must point that it is not written by one author, there are many contributors to the Talmud texts.  The oral Torah existed in Yeshua's day and the Talmud is the oral Torah codefied. The Talmud was complied after the time of Yeshua, but parts of it reflect the Judaism of His day, the culture, the language, issues and practices. That is why it can be a good historical reference.

Should we accept none of it? Well, the fact of the matter is that Jesus Himself honors the oral tradition of reclining during the Passover meal. What do we do with that? In His teachings, Jesus Himself refers to oral tradition many times. I think this is why many Christian scholars have referenced the Talmud to help them better understand the Scriptures, such as Lightfoot, Justin Martyr, and many others. It just goes to show that some of the Talmud sages might have had good insight into the Scriptures, but it takes one who has the Spirit to apply them.

The Talmud is a mixture of truth and error. That is why we need the Scriptures as a guide for what we accept and what we don't.

I am not saying the Talmud is inspired. I am not saying the Talmud is inspired. I am not saying the Talmud is inspired.

6

MalkyEl –

That is an interesting article you found on the web. Do you mind citing the source?

He does say many things that are sadly true about the Messianic movement. I’ve heard it referred to as “the granola factor" – flakes, fruits and nuts. We’ve seen it all.

But yes, it is hard to laugh when there are a lot of false teachings within the Messianic movement. Such as: Gentiles believing they are part of the lost tribes of Israel. Or believing that gentiles are second class citizens and encouraged to either go to a gentile Christian church, convert to Judaism or to only support the Messianic movement financially (as stated by organizations such as UMJC, such groups are more concerned with being accepted by Jewish communities than by God; making our identity in lineage rather than our identity being in Messiah).  There are also self proclaimed “Rabbis” who have never attended any seminary whether Christian or Jewish.

All these reasons above is why I have a hard time labeling myself as messianic because I don’t want to be painted with the same brush. The congregation we go to can only be best described as a Torah community. Our Pastor is a two time graduate of a Baptist seminary, and belongs to ETS (Evangelical Theological Society). Scriptural accuracy is important to us.

As an aside, the Pastor of the non-denominational evangelical (Mega) Church I attended growing up was (a few years ago) accused of improprieties regarding children and was also arrested for lewd conduct. We hear of stories like this all the time, along with stories of false teachings, charismania (snake handling, laughing, barking, etc.) in the Christian Church but that doesn’t render evangelical Christianity illegitimate.
*********************************************

Sanctification is done by God only, not by works.  Keeping the law does not sanctify a person.

You are half right.  Sanctification is both God’s work in us and obeying God’s Law:

De 10:16 " So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. “

De 30:6 - "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.”

So which is it? Will God circumcise our hearts or does He want us to circumcise our hearts? It’s both.

Jesus says:
Mt 5:48 - But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Yet, we also know that we are made perfect in Him.

Here's another verse that illustrates this joint effort of sanctification:

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2)

Shalom,
Chesed