Musiclover,

I know very well the anguish of spiritual depression.  When I was saved from drug addiction, I was so excited I went practically nonstop for weeks, telling everybody I met all about what had happened to me.  My whole life had changed into one of trying to get to know this God I had neglected for so long.  Eventually I had to come down off the cloud and realize I needed a job, so I went to work, and the first opportunity that came along to go hang out with a couple of coworkers who were into the old lifestyle, along I went, even thinking somehow this was OK with God.  Turns out ol' slewfoot was at work instead, and I went for it hook, line, and sinker.  Next thing I know, he's got me convinced my next destination is eternity with him, and God is through with me for good, I had wasted my one last chance.  I walked around in a daze for several months.  When out and about, I thought every remark someone made was a hint to let me know that they knew all about it, and they were laughing too.  I thought God was going to let Satan just take my life any day, and was constantly looking over my shoulder every day wondering which direction it would come from.  Finally, one day I sat on the couch gazing at the shotgun in the corner and thinking to myself how easy it would be to stop the hell on earth that was my life at that time.  

Fortunately we have a God who cares, because at that moment, my brother drove up and came in and sat down.  We made some small talk for a bit, then when there was a break in the conversation, he started talking, just out of the blue, about Judas.  "Judas could have been forgiven, you know, just the same as Peter for denying, or anybody else for any other sin.  But he went and did away with himself, thinking it was all over, and removed the opportunity to ask."  

And very shortly after that, he got up, walked out and left, leaving me wondering, "What was that all about?"  But I knew, and I just looked up and wondered awhile.  It was then and there I came to know the two voices in the world, and to recognize them for what they are.  I knew with the sacredness I had for life, something wasn't as it should be, because that could not be me contemplating doing such a thing.  And I realized that if the thing I was being told had been true, that God was through with me, then why had my brother come down when he did, and said what he did?  And if it was true that I was his and nothing I could do to change it, then why would Satan still be fighting for me anyway?

Needless to say, it was upward all the way from that point.  I've since then taken a deeper look at depression and its causes and in its various forms, to try to understand what happened to me, and to be at least a little bit better informed.  And one thing I see involved in about every form is the negative thinking that accompanies it, and inevitably a debate over which came first and caused the other.  But either way, it's surely there.  I see it some in your posts, and feel I want to help, but really don't know the answers to dealing with that part of it.  I still do tend to have periods of depression, not like that first incident, but generally speaking, running in cycles like bipolar, just not so extreme.  And it definitely affects what I do in ministry.  I used to beat myself over the head with all my weaknesses and resolve to shore them up and do better, and they only got worse, expanding the mental loop even further and getting me more discouraged.

Somewhere in the middle of that, I remember reading "Ordering Your Private World" by Gordon MacDonald, who said something so simple, but so profound, and I never forgot it.  Working on your weaknesses, he says, is not the way to go about "getting it right."  We all have strengths, we all have weaknesses.  What if everybody took that approach, and neglected their strengths in favor of improving their weaknesses?  Instead, he said, work on the things that you do best, find ways to incorporate them and simply do the things you do best.  So worship and pastoral care became the benchmarks of what I do, and I would not even think of approaching things any other way.  

I know that was a severe digression, but I say all that to say this, that I was touched by your honesty and willingness to speak up, a lot of people wouldn't.  I can remember a time when I would never have even considered such a thing.  And because you were willing to do so, I hope that everyone here with even an ounce of compassion will respond and reach out to let you know you have many friends through our Savior.  When I saw your comment about "working on the things around me that cause or trigger that sadness," I thought of those words I had read so long ago.  And I wanted to just pop in and say, "Why not try the opposite, and work on the things that produce joy in your life?"  But somehow it sounded so simplistic when I thought of just sticking the statement up by itself, and so I went back and gathered all the thoughts that came with it and did some window dressing.  

And if nothing else, you have one more here who can truthfully say, "I've been there too."  Believe me, after thinking you've committed the unpardonable sin somehow, that can be the biggest blessing in the world to know you're not alone.  For me, it came in reading a book describing the planting of that seed-thought as one of the most common tricks of the enemy of our souls.  

I'm glad you shared with all of us, and I will definitely be keeping you in prayer.  

R.M.

A few years ago I got a call early one morning from our church pianist, frantically giving me directions and asking me to come to her sister-in-law's house, who had just shot herself.  All the way there, the Spirit of the Lord was dealing with me, giving me a very direct funeral message taking on the subject of depression and suicide and eternity.  I found it a strange feeling, as I had been told she was still alive, and in fact when I arrived, the EMS personnel were taking her out still alive.  But I later received a call telling me she had died.  I was asked by our pianist to come to her house and talk to her brother about what he wanted in relation to the funeral.  When I got there, I found him very quiet, even distant, with a look that told me something was very strongly on his mind.  I just sat and waited, and finally, he asked me point-blank, what do you believe about the salvation of someone who commits suicide?  

Boy, talk about walking on eggshells!   But at least I was already clear on the point, so I just shared with him that if he was concerned that I was one of those who think it's a one-way ticket to hell, he need not worry.  I knew from his sister that his wife had been on Prozac for sometime, and had stopped taking the medication.  And I believe in such circumstances, a person can be in an emotional state in which I believe they are essentially not responsible for their actions.  When I shared that, you could see the relief rolling like a wave across his body.  It turned out that 20 years earlier, he had a close friend who committed suicide, and when he attended the funeral, he heard one of the harshest messages you can imagine a minister preaching.  He had not been back to church since.  So he requested on the spot, that I would address the topic of suicide and my opinion as I had just expressed it to him.  Easy request for me, the Lord had already directed me to do so anyway, a fact I shared with him, for added assurance that God was already at work on the same thing.  

It was an amazing thing to be a part of that situation and a part of the healing process for a 20-year wound.  It remains one of the most powerful ministry experiences of my life.  And I appreciate having so many posting here who can see this illness for what it is.  It's sad to see that the misunderstanding still persists, I for one hope the opinion described from the other forum was  the exception there, rather than the rule.

R.M.

Amen to the Word, and blessings to you also.

But I'm afraid I don't see posting a theological opinion, based on what God has said clearly in His Word, as "judging."  

As I recall, I ended with a question.

And on the subject of love:

If the Bible clearly says that something is sinful;

if it also says that same sin, persisted in, will keep them from heaven;

How on God's green earth can it be considered "loving" to simply pretend as though it is not there, and turn one's head the other way and say nothing?

I find it ironic that at the same time many people cry out against "judging" when anyone expresses biblical opinions, they turn right around and label opinions that are counter to their own as "gay-bashing," which is for the most part a judgment call in itself, and one that is generally overused.

A telling circumstance:

As the conflict in Iraq began, all the Democrats wanted to talk about was the economy, and all the Republicans wanted to talk about was the war.  As the war has continued farther than expectations, and the economy has shown signs of a beginning recovery, they seem to have switched places.  

I couldn't help but be sickened at the entire DNC approach of "attack Bush policies at every opportunity."  It was especially wretched to hear Clinton's sly little dig about wisdom and strength not being mutually exclusive, implying that the conflict in Iraq was an unwise show of strength.

And I notice the same attack has taken root all over.  Our newspaper ran a column by Bob Herbert, a New York writer, attacking Bush on education policies that he tried to label as racially biased or slanted.  He spoke of “neglect for underfunded public schools,” and of “using black people as political props.”  He accused Bush of "hijacking" the Leave No Child Behind program, and putting his own title to it, No Child Left Behind.  

I served last year as a member of the District Advisory Council for Title I funding in our county, one of the poorest school districts in the state.  Title I is a federally mandated supplemental funding source, through which the No Child Left Behind program is implemented (or at least it is here).  Our council leader was Hispanic, I was one of two whites on the council, and the other eight members were all black.  We went into the schools to talk with teachers and find what they thought the greatest needs were, and held public events to which parents were invited, and got their input as well.  We held meetings also with principals for the same kind of input.  As a result, $2.7 million dollars that was appropriated for the county was directed to the places where the need was the greatest, much of it going to predominantly black neighborhoods and schools.  Parental involvement in volunteering at the schools was on the increase, and student morale and grades were significantly increased.  

IMO, Bush's "hijacking" of No Child Left Behind, at least as it developed in our area, was more like a "resurrection" of the program.  And it was done by putting the power of implementation where it should be, in the hands of the people and not so much in a hands-on govenmental agency as so many programs are.  

Question everything anyone affiliated with the Democratic Party has to say on issues.  Talk is cheap, and playing the "race card" in this manner has been one of the cheapest shots at our president yet.

R.M.

["Christian's are Not Perfect, Just Forgiven!"]

"Christian's are Not Perfect, Just Forgiven!" Lets all remember this Please!

Good to keep in mind, but even so, there is a line that exists between falling into sin and asking forgiveness, and knowingly, openly, and willfully becoming involved in unrepentant sin.  There are those who try to blur the liines of distinction to make them seem not so bad to human thinking, and thus justify behavior that is not pleasing to God.  

To my thinking, standing on the one side of the line, in need of forgiveness for sin and realizing and asking for forgiveness, may be termed Christian, but being on the other side of that liine may not be.  This willfullness of behavior and attitude is what Paul addressed when he wrote:

"But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to  sound teaching" (1 Tim. 1:8-10).

He makes similar remarks in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

As long as by your quote of this common bumper sticker theology, you are not suggesting any kind of "I'm OK, you're OK" approach to understanding this issue, then I agree it's an appropriate statement.  But there are those who use the same kinds of phrases to suggest we just sweep it all under the carpet and make no call on it.  I for one can't go that route, because:

• Paul calls it "contrary to sound teaching," and "unrighteous"
• He says if we accept these practices as okay, we are "deceived"
• He says the end result is, no inheritance of the Kingdom of God.

My question is, if it is contrary to sound Christian teaching, if it leads away from the Kingdom of God, and if believing differently is a deception, then would the statement of "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" even apply, since it seems, generally speaking, that the two seem incompatible?

R.M.