No problem blackeyepeas.  I don't appreciate the way you are handling this but I can sort of understand it given the way the forum recently had a major conflict over Catholic / Protestant issues.  Perhaps any over-reaction on your part to what I was saying might have been due to having just gone through a major conflict and not wanting to get into another.  If so I can understand that.  

I really don't have time to go into this issue of quirkiness anymore myself so I would likewise just as soon drop this whole thread though I might still respond if someone says something else about it.  I have no intention of sticking around on the forum once the thread I am discussing things on ("Are the spiritual gifts around for today or not?") has run it's course.  

Best regards.  

Carlos

Blackeyepeas,

Why are you telling me to not say anything more without also telling others to do the same?  Why not just lock the thread?  Seems to me blackeyepeas that you are not being very reasonable with me in particular when all I am doing is simply responding to the previous poster.  

I have no problem with not discussing this any more and would have been content to just let it end as you and I had previously agreed on.  But if someone else posts something that I consider to be innacurate regarding this issue would you have me just keep my mouth shut?

Is that the way to allow for free discussion on a forum?  Such that some are supposed to keep their mouth shut while others are allowed to say something else about a matter.  

Have I been rude?  Have I exhibited un-Christlikeness in my expression of thoughts on this thread?  Have I been divisive?  If so then please correct me by pointing to what verses would help me see that.  Instead of just telling me to shut up.  

Anything less seems to me to be overbearing.  

Carlos

Well fancy meeting you here Evangelist .  

FWIW, I remember about 2? years ago, CU underwent a very vicious hack attack, and was completely destroyed for a little while. I would surmise that the handling of non-logged on users is a safety mechanism of some sort to help keep the nasties at bay (or at least with some sort of track record).

While I can see how that could be viewed as such the fact is that any hacker, even a novice, who wanted to crack into and cause havoc on CU could just sign up as a member and then bypass any benefit to CU's way of handling non-logged in members.  Assuming that such is there out of security consciousness.  

Security on a web site by neccessity, involves much more than having private access to a site through logins when anyone and their next door neighbor can become members.  

Not that such is of no use mind you.  On the contrary.  It is often used to prevent search engines from scanning the pages of a forum, having certain pages be viewable by members only, and other such things.  But from a security standpoint CU's present handling of logged-in vs non-logged-in users is utterly useless.  It only frustrates people like me who might be inclined to visit the forum more often but don't.  

Carlos

Excellent post Evangelist!  Thank you.  

Very insightful verses you selected.  

I especially liked how you put the following.  It very succincly and accurately describes what is going on in the Church today.  

Abuse and misuse of the power and gifts of God are rampant....but that does not invalidate HIS power, HIS distribution and HIS use of them through vain, imperfect and finite jars of clay.

AMEN!!  

What is most encouraging for me personally is that, given that the perfect has not yet come, that there will be a day when Christ WILL be fully revealed.  There will come a day when our partial speaking, thinking, resoning, will be no more.  When we shall know as fully as we are now known by God.  

There is true hope for the future.  When the perfect comes.  

That all the imperfectness of the Church will someday, perhaps soon, be no more and that she will shine with the glory of Christ revealed in all His majesty and surpassing greatness in her midst.  What a glorious day that will be!  

If I was of the school that believed that the perfect had already come it would be downright depressing.  By virtue of having to conclude that what  is yet to come is already here.  And what an imperfect perfect that is.  

Carlos

Behold!  What is this?  A voice from among the otherwise silent masses is heard crying in the wilderness ....

...carry on.

Good suggestion sincereheart .  I think I shall....

Now that we have had a chance to get to know one another better through comments made over Benny Hinn, extraneous Bible studies, and short non-interactive posting why don't we get back to looking at 1 Corinthians...

Let's see we left off at 1 Cor 13:10 I believe so continuing on...

1 Corinthians 13:10
For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Here Paul brings in an analogy to give insight into what he means in verse 10.  The analogy of being like a child vs being like an adult.  

In other words to know and prophesy in part vs fully is like the differnce between being childish and being like an adult.

In line with the nature and purpose of his analogy Paul is not referring to spiritual childhood vs becoming spiritually mature.  Rather he is referring to physical childhood vs real, physical adulthood as happens when a child grows up to be a man.  

Compared to how it will be when the perfect comes we all walk around as children do.  We speak like children, think like children, and reason like children.  We see in a mirror dimly and we know only in part.  

But when the perfect comes we will put the childlike nature of our present speaking, thinking, and reasoning behind.  Such that we will see things face to face not as in a mirror dimly as we do now and we will know fully just as we also have been fully known by God.  

It strikes me how incredible it will be when the perfect comes and how unscriptural it is to believe that the perfect has already come.  We still to this day walk about as children in comparison to how it will be when the perfect comes.  I don't know about you but I sure don't see us exercising our spiritual gifts in a way that fully expresses and shows forth who God is in his fullness.  We certainly do not know as fully as we are presently known by God.  

To say that the perfect has already come is to say that we are now in a state of manifesting God perfectly through the Church and knowing fully just as we are known.  To me that seems to be quite ignorant of the partial nature in which we still operate. I hesitate to use the word ignorant but that is how I believe God sees it.  

It is somewhat akin to a child walking around insisting that he is an adult when all around hiim can see that he is not.  If it were not for the way such a view contradicts what God's is and hinders his work in the Church it would be utterly funny to see a child insisting that he is a man.  

Perhaps there might even be an element of pride in there somewhere too.  In saying that whatever God (as our Father) might say about our state of childhood is not true and that we know better than Him.

Any further thoughts or input?

Carlos

That is very interesting about the 2 prophets Felix.  I never realized that before (probably because I rarely read Revelations).  If the perfect was the canon of Scripture then one would certainly have a hard time explaining why these two persons would not have been just quoting Scripture instead of prophesying.  

Of course to prophesy is not just to tell the future.  It can also involve speaking to men for edification, exhortation, and encouragement which can be done by quoting Scripture and explaining it.  

But the fact that the Greek word translated "prophesy" in Rev 11:3 (which has to do with end time events) is the same exact word as used in 1 Cor 14:3 when it says "But he that prophesieth..." is a powerful argument in support of the perfect not having yet come.  

Glad you pointed that out Felix!  

Carlos

What I find truly amazing when hearing about the perfect being the Bible is the way those who believe this are not able to point out support for their position straight from the Bible.  

They make statements like in the snippet below which you quoted Evangelist ....

That expression “that which is perfect” does not refer to when we get to heaven, as so many think. It means that when Paul’s full revelations are all given, when the New Testament is finished, then there would be no more use of the temporary gifts.

And expect everyone to just believe what they have said without any kind of Scriptural support for it.  They often say that history supports the belief that the canon resulted in the loss of the gifts for their argument cannot be made from the Scriptures alone.  But using history is a very shakey and unreliable way to determine what God means in the Word.  For history is the history of man whose heart is prone to evil such that it often does not point to God's view of things.  

First we determine what God says in His Word.  In the clear and plain meaning of the words there.  Then we bring God's understanding to history.  Not the other way around.  

If anyone reading this thinks different please feel free to speak up.  Your head won't be bitten off .  Perhaps there is something in the view of the Bible being the perfect that I am not seeing or understanding.

Carlos

Forgive me Brother Love but your response is .... well ... ahem ... rather unusual .  

A capitalized word "NOTHING" with a grimace face next to it?

Can you not be more specific?  Have my comments along with those of others on this thread being so irrefutable that all you can say is "NOTHING"?  I truly am willing to hear you out if you care to share but "NOTHING" doesn't leave me with much to work with.  It certainly does not help to bring the light of God's truth into the thread, assuming that your view - whatever that is - reflects what God thinks.  

Carlos

If you have anything of value to add that comes from you, and the use of scripture, we would definitely welcome it.

I totally agree Evangelist. Pointing us to long studies is not going to help us move toward agreement.  

Entering into the discussion, however much one may disagree, and personally bringing one's views into it supported by Scripture will.  Assuming one's come into the discussion with an attitude of humility of course.  

If you are willing Brother Love can you not comment on the verses we have been looking at in 1 Cor 13 and the meaning of the perfect as you see it?  Without bringing in material that ranges far and wide in covering other aspects of this issue?  

Thanks.  

Carlos

What is this auto-logon you all are mentioning?  

Before you answer please bear in mind that I do not leave my browser open on my desktop while logged in anywhere (to better secure my computer and to prevent hackers from causing a problem through me to the site I am logged on to).  

I do not use programs like Roboform which cost money I believe and which may be broken into such that everything I have stored in one place is compromised.  

The above, along with other measures I take, has allowed me live virus and hacker free for years.  Even under Windows .  It may also seem quite paranoid to people who have little experience with Internet security issues.  

So if this auto-logon is still an option for me given the above please let me know what it is that I might take advantage of it.  As it is I am so frustrated by having to go through what I have to go through to post things on this forum that the discussion I am presently on will be my last here.  

Thanks.  

Carlos

I could say all kinds of things and make valid points about these silent thousands and why you have not heard of this problem before and da di da but yup...we can agree to disagree .  

Though I will be asking anyone wanting to discuss something other than what I am involved in discussing now on this forum to .... please ... discuss it in another forum which does not have these quirks.  They are driving me batty.  

Carlos

Tom,

Thanks for your additional input. I appreciate it.  And I also appreciate the effort you seem to put in as a volunteer (I have read some of the threads where you have had to step in keep the peace so to speak).  

I doubt it is any big concern to set the forum software to take commands from unknown computers.

Indeed it probably is not Tom but may I say that this is what distinguishes great companies / forums / churches / or any grouping of people from those that are not so great?  Namely how sensitive they are to how the little people feel about something.  

Instead of a top down approach they use a bottom up approach to serve their "customers" without compromising their overriding principals.  

I don't mean great as in trying to be superior over everyone else.  I mean great in the sense that through continual user input they improve to be as good as they can be.  

If the christian unite powers that be have an attitude or perspective of not listening to complaints like mine because they do not consider it worthy enough to at least investigate it and do something about it if possible then users, like me, will continue to be frustrated using their services and will most likely just go elsewhere.  

I'm not trying to be a hard nose Tom.  Only trying to point out that for people using Internet forums these "quirks" considered little by upper management can sometimes drive people away.  And uneccessarily so.  

Just my two cents worth Tom for what good it has done.  I realize your hands are probably tied but I would have hoped that upper management here, in a Christian forum, would have had a more sensible approach to listening to user complaints and perhaps have shown at least a willingness to really listen and perhaps do something about them if at all possible.  

Like I said, in all the forums I have ever participated in, I have never, ever encountered one that was more frustrating to use as an end user.  And I have been involved in a LOT of them.  Cookies and all.  

Nothing personal Tom.  

Carlos

Thanks Tom.  I appreciate the heads up reminder about cookies (even though I am former web developer and computer programmer - now turned hot dog vendor by choice - who realizes there is nothing evil about cookies .  

I find it rather quirky that of all the forums I have visited yours is the only one that behaves this way.  At least that I can recall.  One would think that the URL which is sent to forum members indicating that a new post is in a thread would direct visitors to the last post whether one is logged in or not.  

To do otherwise is to make the forum difficult to use.  More difficult than it needs to be.  Often I just want to read a new post.  Not neccessarily respond.  Yet I must presently traverse manually to the last post every single time I visit a thread or log in (which puts me into the main forum area).  On short threads it's not too bad but when I am following a long thread with multiple pages it becomes a much greater headache.  

A headache which I will quickly tire of in terms of my willingness to participate in a more active way on the forum as a whole.  

One other point Tom.  If indeed this is being caused by the way your forum handles cookies it encourages actions which are worse from a security standpoint.  Both for your forum and for visitors to it.  For I and others will just be tempted to stay logged in and keep a browser window opened all day to the forum on screen.  So that we might not have to log in every time we want to be taken to the last posts in threads we are following.  

I would highly suggest you review your cookie processing procedures to make visiting the forum less of a chore Tom.  

Carlos

To be sure thar don't seem to be too many fish in this ther hole .  

Carlos

Well put Evangelist.  I perceive that you have a way with words in terms of describing some things that I have tried to describe more clearly than I .  

I especially like the reference to 1 John 3:2.  That's an excellent verse that seems to be exactly in line with what Paul is talking about. Using even some similar terminology.  

As to the perfect being Jesus I am not sure about that myself.  Certainly Jesus is indeed the only perfect thing (if I can say thing) about all this.  As you rightly point out.  

Yet I wonder if the perfect in 1 Cor 13 refers not to Jesus per se but rather to that state of being that we will attain to on his return or something like that.  Not directly referring to Jesus but rather to something related.  

The idea that the perfect refers to the completed canon of Scripture in my thinking is entirely and completely unsupported in the context unless someone reading this can show us different of course .  Indeed I see such a belief as only supportable through the bringing into the discussion various extra biblical ideas and opinions about dispensations, supposed gender nuances of Greek words, and the like.  Certainly not from a plain reading of the Scriptures.  

Carlos

PS.  As for my long list of gifts...well...hmm...I did overdo it I guess in terms of listing them all .  It's just that some reading this thread might not have looked up the verses and I didn't want them to miss my point.  That some of the gifts are obviously still around (i.e faith, knowledge, etc.) in the midst of others that they might view as not being.