Blessings!

I could be wrong (I have been once before, I think..hee hee) but, in Revelations, when Jesus returns; Does He also raise the dead from the graves? It was always my belief that, God took His favored ones to heaven, for they used to sacrifice burned offerings for their sins. Abraham, Noah, Jacob--all of those in the Old Testament that were faithful to God, including David did this and prayed constantly for God's forgiveness and mercy. I also believe that David, in many of his Psalms speaks about being in God's Kingdom and God is his Savior. Since Jesus was and always has been, long before he was born of the flesh, I would only take the belief that the old testament faithful would have been in Heaven. Jesus took away the need for burned offerings upon His birth. If the burned offerings before His birth were for sins, it only seems logical to me that God took those people to Heaven as long as they followed and worshipped Him, as well as obeying His laws of that time.

I am no scholar so, if I am way off on this, let me know. I love to learn and take any posts as knowledge.

God Bless,
Kelly

Thanks for that Kelly. Whatever the case may be, believers will be raised from the dead by Jesus. The issue here is whether or not the OT saints are in heaven  now or are they still in hades (paradise). We know heaven is their destiny. All I am pointing out is that Peter said in Acts 2 that David did not ascend to heaven after the ascension of Jesus. I think this implies that no old testament saint has been transfered to heaven yet. I believe that the resurrection of their bodies must take place first.
Having said that, technically speaking, we are all in heavenly places even now, seated with Christ there. Hallelujah! Where can we go from His presence? Even if I make my bed in sheol (Hades) He is there. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We are secure in Him. What a wonderful person He is! We are heirs together with all the saints OT and NT!
I am no scholar either sister. I am one of those "not wise" ones that Paul the apostle wrote about.

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In His Kindness,

asaph 

[Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.]

Dave,
I think alot of what your saying is right on. However I have a question concerning the transfer of OT saints to heaven. The following is a quote from the link you gave. I will post some scripture after the quote for comparison. How can we reconcile the quote with the scripture? 

Once Christ died on the cross, the sins of the whole world being completely paid for, (1 Jn 2:2), having already received as a result of a moment of faith in a coming Messiah through the seed of Abraham, the gift of God's Perfect Righteousness, (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:3),
the Old Testament period believers were immediately brought out of Paradise in Hades into heaven to be with God for the rest of eternity.

Act 2:29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Would'nt the transition from paradise to heaven take place when God makes the enemies of Jesus His footstool?  Why is'nt David in heaven in this passage? Could it be that though David is still in paradise that he is in the presense of Jesus there? After all, Jesus ascended so that He could fill all things. Would'nt it be more accurate to say that when we die we too go to paradise to be present with the Lord there? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, but does it neccessarily require us to go to heaven at death?  Is'nt the rapture or resurrection the time when all are taken out of paradise? I am really trying to be a Berean and so I am sincerely asking these questions to see if there is any legitimacy to these observations.

Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

It seems to me that he did not give gifts to those in sheol but to the living on earth. In Christ's ascension He sat down at the right hand of God, completing His work. As a result He now gives-gifts through the Holy Spirit outpoured to men. Some gifts are actually people-apostles, prophets, etc.
The lower parts of the earth could be the womb as is stated in the Psalms.

Psa 139:15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Jesus descended into the virgins womb to be born into a sinful world. To lead captivity captive was His mission. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. He ascended in order to send the Holy Spirit and give gifts to men for the building up of His Body.
I also believe that Jesus descended to paradise (Hades/Sheol). But I cannot see this as Jesus bringing those OT saints to heaven at the time of His ascension. He will bring them at the resurrection of the righteous.

I guess I just do not see in scripture where it explicitly says that OT saints were taken to heaven at Jesus' ascension.

Respectfully submitted-

asaph

[Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies. According to the above verses an an end of sin is made for Israel (Daniel's People) after 70 weeks are accomplished. But when was Messiah cut off? Read verses 25 and 26 for the answer. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times. Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, --the desolations determined.Messiah was cut off at his crucifixion after the 7 and 62 weeks which adds up to 69 weeks. This leaves 7 years (1 week) to pass in order to make an end of sin for Israel. Seventy weeks are apportioned-to make an end of sins. So for Israel as a nation after Jesus died for the sins of the world they still have 7 years of God's dealings with them. If you count 7 years from the cross you will see that there is no dealing with Israel in the magnitude of what is prophesied in Revelations. So the 7 years (70th week) has to come later to be fulfilled. Even AD 70 falls way short of all things recorded in Revelations. So that means we are still looking for the beginning of the 70th week.Pre trib people think the rapture will precede the 70th week but I believe the rapture will take place sometime in the second half of the 7 year period. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations there shall be a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.The 70th week will begin when a covenant is initiated by Antichrist. But halfway through the 7 year covenant he will put an end to temple sacrifices and proclaim himself to be God and demand worship of himself. See 2 Thess. 2. It is sometime after this that the rapture will take place, we do not know the day or the hour. He will persecute and many will be martyred (Matt.24:15ff). But Jesus Christ will come to the air and send his angels to gather those believers who are alive and remain to Himself. Then God will begin to pour out His wrath on the Nations. During this time others will be saved and beheaded and resurrected at the end of the 70th week (Rev 20:4) But Antichrist will come to his end.]

I'm sorry about this post. I do not know how to itemize each response in the correct fashion as you did.

Asaph:
No, I'm not.  It's just that I've never heard of the 70 weeks being brought up in discussing the Rapture, and I never thought of the 70 weeks as equalling any more than a year per day.  Perhaps you could explain what you mean.

Answer
Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

According to the above verses an an end of sin is made for Israel (Daniel's People) after 70 weeks are accomplished. But when was Messiah cut off? Read verses 25 and 26 for the answer.
 
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26  And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, --the desolations determined.

Messiah was cut off at his crucifixion after the 7 and 62 weeks which adds up to 69 weeks. This leaves 7 years (1 week) to pass in order to make an end of sin for Israel. Seventy weeks are apportioned-to make an end of sins. So for Israel as a nation after Jesus died for the sins of the world they still have 7 years of God's dealings with them. If you count 7 years from the cross you will see that there is no dealing with Israel in the magnitude of what is prophesied in Revelations. So the 7 years (70th week) has to come later to be fulfilled. Even AD 70 falls way short of all things recorded in Revelations. So that means we are still looking for the beginning of the 70th week.
Pre trib people think the rapture will precede the 70th week but I believe the rapture will take place sometime in the second half of the 7 year period.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations there shall be a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.

The 70th week will begin when a covenant is initiated by Antichrist. But halfway through the 7 year covenant he will put an end to temple sacrifices and proclaim himself to be God and demand worship of himself. See 2 Thess. 2. It is sometime after this that the rapture will take place, we do not know the day or the hour. He will persecute and many will be martyred (Matt.24:15ff). But Jesus Christ will come to the air and send his angels to gather those believers who are alive and remain to Himself. Then God will begin to pour out His wrath on the Nations. During this time others will be saved and beheaded and resurrected at the end of the 70th week (Rev 20:4) But Antichrist will come to his end.


Even if this is true, does any author say that the "main harvest" is split between the "general harvest" and the "late harvest" of those beheaded for the Mark of the Beast?
But Rev. 20 doesn't say that only the beheaded were raised.  Did you read what I said about the words "I saw" being added by the translators?

answer
There is a reason for that. The words "I saw" were added because of the conjunction "and". This conjunction introduces a new part of the vision not to be included with those on thrones.

If your interpretation is the truth then I am not entitled to disagree with you, because none of us are entitled to disagree with the truth.
Yes, I agree with that.  Let me ask you this: do you think that Christians should try to remove themselves from people who wish to persecute them?

answer
No. Not in every case. Paul did used shrewdness at times to avoid premature death. Check out the book of Acts. Why to you think Christians were scrattered. It was to avoid persecution. When persecution cannot be avoided then we are to take it joyfully and boldly in His strength.

Christ's Serf

Quote
But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?
Actually, I didn't say anything about the 70th week, that was part of the quote of the commentator that you mentioned.  To be honest, I don't see how the 70th week extends beyond a few years after Christ's death; but maybe there's a connection and I never saw it.

Christ's Serf

Are you partial preterist in your understanding? If so I really do not want to go any further with this discussion. I believe you are my brother in Christ but I find it very unfruitful to debate against your stand. I do appreciate your gentleness. I have a friend who believes the same. We get along fine. I have investigated the preterist and partial preterist doctrines and cannot come to agree with them. Sorry.

Love in Christ

Quote
First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later.
Reference?  The 1 Cor. passage doesn't state that.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Firstfruts is the promise of a full harvest that same season. There are many things that are not explicit in scripture but are implicit. Jesus used a lot of parables that were by no means explicit in their meanings. He used nature and familiar things to teach. Paul was relying on the readers understanding of the nature of harvest. He assumed they would understand that first fruits is connected with the ingathering of the main harvest. What I say is this harvest is the first resurrection which is tied to firstfruits. First resurrection only involves the righteous. But includes all the righteous, not just the beheaded ones of Rev. 20. I take Rev 20 as literal, only the beheaded are raised at that point and yet are counted at being included in the first resurrection.
My interpretation is warranted and supported by scripture and you are entitled to disagree.
I think we both agree that we will experience the persecution by antichrist. We both agree that God's wrath is not the same as the wrath of Satan and that we will be spared God's wrath. We differ as to means of being spared His wrath. I believe we will be taken out, you believe we will be protected from His wrath. The timing of the rapture is, therefore, in question. I will tell you what. Come and see me when I it is shown that I was right after all. I promise I will not say "I told you so".

asaph
 

[given]

Quote
Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Immediately after Revelation 11 is the prophecy of the woman with twelve stars who gave birth to a man child.  This (I think) has always been taken to be a parable to the birth of Christ.  Hence, at this point, Revelation jumps out of chronological sequence with the preceding chapters.  I think that Rev. 11:18 and 20:4 are describing the same event.  Look at the parrellels and let me know if you disagree.

I believe that Rev 12 is partially parenthetical. It fills in details of what this universal war is all about. I do not think chapter 11 is parenthetical at all.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In 11:18 judgement is taking place where God himself is rewarding the saints. I believe this is the judgement seat of Christ.
In 20:4 who are they that sat upon thrones? I believe these are those who received their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ and are now on thrones judging others. You see judgement was given unto them. So this could not be God judging because He does not receive power to judge  but rather has given judgement power to His saints. God is the Greatest Judge, why would He be given judgement? So it must be the saints judging in 20:4.

asaph

Quote
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.
Yes, the Lord's coming does shorten the days of persecution, but does that tell us anything about how long we're gong to be persecuted before Jesus shortens the days?

But you said that the rapture is at the end of the 70th week. So how was anything shortened if that is the case?

asaph

[will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.]

Quote
Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Where does he get his timing for this "great trumpet"?  As you can see in the beginning of the verse Isaiah is speaking of "that day".  He has been talking of "that day" for a long time.  Here's another thing that he says about "that day".

sa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].  And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

You are right. THAT DAY has a wider range of application than just the 70th week. It also includes the 1000 year reign of Christ.The timing of this trumpet sound fits best after the 70th week. Israel certainly is not worshiping the Lord today, they will not worship him till after the 70th week.

asaph

Hello Asaph:
No, John didn't say that that was all he saw, he just stated that he saw the beheaded dead.  He could very well have seen others and just not mentioned them.
No he doesn't.  He states that Christ is the first fruits and that those which are Christ's will be ressurected when He returns.  He does not say that there will be a "general harvest" and a "late harvest", nor does he say that Christ was part of the first ressurection.  Is there any passage of Scripture which specifically mentions a "general harvest" and a "late harvest"?

This interpretation figuratizes the term "first resurrection".  Of course there were earlier people who were resurrected, but those events were never described as part of a "first resurrection.

I'll reply to your other post in a bit.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth

Christ's Serf

I do not see it figuratizes it at all. If anything it make real the figures of the Old Testament. The bible says we will be in the likeness of his resurrection. If He was not raised then neither will we. First fruits is part of the same harvest which comes later. The first resurrection is pictured by the harvest in nature. The harvest comes in stages.

The fact that only the beheaded are mentioned here is significant. I need not restate my stand here.

In conclusion, the things that happen in the OT are types or pictures of the realities of the new testament. They are figures of things to come. The harvest is no exception to this. That does not make Rev.20 figurative, it makes it the fulfilment of the figures. There is a difference.

Thank you,

asaph

 

[this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group. This is supported by the following statement.]

Hello Christserf,
I posed the question:
Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet?

Your answer:
There's no indication here that they were Raptured.  I think that they were in heaven because they were killed.  Is there some reason to think otherwise?

My response:
Lets read the verse:
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They stood. They had legs, feet and hands. This is a description of resurrected bodies.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Commentary:
These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation = is full of interpretive insights. First, the elder is answering the second question asked in verse 13b, "from where have they come?" In English, a "where" question usually anticipates a specific location. However, a specific place is not given but a specific time is indicated. The great tribulation has one parallel in Scripture—Matthew 24:21. In that specific passage, the definite article the is not used. As one of the original recipients of the Olivet Discourse (Mark 13:3), John, the apostle, heard Jesus use this very specific term. Therefore, his use reflects previous knowledge. The great tribulation is not a place, but a specific time. This is reflected in the translation of NASB, which states, "For those days will be a time of tribulation…(Mark 13:19)." This is in harmony with Daniel 12:1, which also calls this period "a time of distress." This universally innumerable multitude will arrive in heaven during the period of the great tribulation.

Out of suggests that this universally innumerable multitude come out of the midst of the great tribulation. The phrase, the ones who come translates a Greek substantival participle. In the context, the universally innumerable multitude is composed of "the ones who come." The participle in and of itself does not speak to issue of the timing of their arrival. However, this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group. This is supported by the following statement.

They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb = answers the second question posted in verse 13b above. The fact that the Lord states that overcomers "shall be clothed in white garments (Rev 3:5)," and that the Laodiceans should purchase "white garments, that the shame [of their] nakedness may not be revealed…(Rev 3:18)," limits the interpretation of Revelation 7:14b. The fact that every member of the universally innumerable multitude has "washed and made white" his robes removes any possibility that martyrdom is the action described here. While some members of the universally innumerable multitude did die the death of a martyr, this cannot be said for the entire group. Yet, every single member "washed and made white" his or her robe.

The fact that both the "washing" and the "making white" are described as past tense forces the participle "the ones who come" to be past tense as well. The Greek language works this way. This supports our conclusion that the universally innumerable multitude arrives in heaven as a group and not as individuals over a period of time.

If they all arrived at exactly the same time then this indicates a rapture and not a gradual arriving as would be the case of souls being martyred over a period of time.

asaph

I have a simple question and that is, in the book of Acts the only mode or formula used for baptism was in the Name of Jesus Christ, my question is why is  not this the formula used throughout christianity today?




God Bless in Jesus Name

Since Christ is the embodiment of the triune God, to be baptized in the name of Jesus is to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will note that in Matthew 28 it says "name", not names. Jesus is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The name denotes the person. God is triune. The name Jesus is the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So it's ok to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Col 1:19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
Col 2:9  For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

One of the things we are commanded to do is be baptized and to baptize others. Do not try to decipher it, just obey. Be like the Ethiopian who after hearing the gospel said: Act 8:36 ...  "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

When Phillip preached the gospel he included the teaching of baptism. Otherwise tell me why the man was so determined to be baptized.

Peter said: Act 2:38 ..." Repent, and be baptized..." all in one breath. He did not stop and explain that it is just symbolic and not necessary. Why do we do this? Because we are afraid someone might not understand the doctrine of justification by faith alone. This is hogwash, we repent by faith, we are baptized by faith we grow in grace by faith. Lets let the operation of God work in us through the obedience of Faith.

asaph

[A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised.Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked.The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same.]

This thread presents the doctrine that the Rapture will take place after the Mark of the Beast, commonly called the post-tribulation Rapture.

1Cr 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The Rapture will not occur until the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelations. You can read about them sometime.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (i.e., pre-cede) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise before the living are raptured.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Hi Christ's Serf-
I would like to give my views on the last trump. First, let me quote Roger Best. I think he sums up pretty well my views concerning the last trumpet:

A grammatical and lexical study demonstrates that 1 Corinthians 15:52 denotes the actual blasting of a trumpet. The idea is that of a last blast of a particular trumpet. At the last blast of a trumpet, the dead will be raised. The name of this trumpet is not "the last trumpet." This is not what Paul is indicating here. Rather, the focus is on the sound of the trumpet. This passage gives no clue what trumpet is blown. Only that when the last blast occurs, the dead will be raised.

Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that this trumpet is the trumpet of God. This is the actual name of the trumpet which will be blown at the rapture, the last blast of which will signal the time of resurrection for dead saints. The first time the trumpet of God appears in Scripture can be traced back to Exodus 19:10-20:21. There the trumpet not only served to alert the people to the coming of God into man's domain, but also to warn the people of the seriousness of the moment. This will be the case again at the rapture of the church when God the Father comes with Jesus to deliver the righteous and begin the punishment of the wicked.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequences demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved.

Isaiah 27:13 states, "It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown; and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem." This passage indicates that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the last trumpet to be blown in human history. This trumpet called the "great trumpet" will call Israel back to the land after the Seventieth week of Daniel ends.
Thus we can conclude correctly that Paul's trumpet blast and the trumpets of Revelation are not the same.

Let me add, if the rapture occurs at the last trumpet in Revelation's then where did those saints come from that are seen in heaven just prior to the blowing of the first trumpet? It is said that they came out of great tribulation. I believe this refers to the coming out of the persecution inflicted by antchrist and that it cut short those days of persecution.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
There is something that shortens those days. What is it? The saints are raptured at the Lord's coming prior to the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpets. This, in my opinion is what shortens those days of persecution.

After they leave there will be yet another group that will be resurrected later.

Look at Rev 20:

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who are the throne sitters? The identity of these throne-sitters is not explicitly indicated. In the context of the millennial reign of Christ, these individuals must be the faithful saints of the ages. Otherwise, there is no mention of the saints in general connected with the 1000-year reign of Christ at this point in the Revelation. However, unlike the beheaded martyrs to follow, these individuals are already seated on the thrones when John sees them. They have already received the right to render judgments. Therefore, their resurrection must have preceded John’s sighting of them. This accords with Revelation 11:18, which indicated the rewarding of the saints preceded the final wrath of God through the bowl judgments. Since the millennial reign follows the bowl judgments, the saints will have been judged already and anticipating the reign of Christ to begin.
Who are the beheaded ones? Many commentators generalize this group into the whole of saints throughout the ages, but this conclusion is not necessary. John specifically indicates that this group was beheaded. Pelikizein meaning "to behead with an axe" is very specific. Some try to make Revelation 6:9, which refers to martyrs and Revelation 20:4 refer to the same group. However, this again is a case of over generalizing the similarities to the neglect of the differences. For John to refer to all believers as martyrs indicates a gross abuse of both language and truth. To behead with an axe limits the application of Revelation 20:4 to those so killed. However, Revelation 6:9 uses a term that could describe death resulting from many different possibilities. This simply is not the case in Revelation 20:4. There are two groups described in Revelation 20:4—the throne-sitters and the beheaded faithful. The beheaded faithful refused to worship the beast or his image, which is the expressed requirement to live on the earth during the reign of the dragon. The gravity of one’s refusal to worship the beast can be seen in the consequence—beheading.

asaph

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.

BEP-
You said it well. I reject the preterist view but I know some very kind and loving christians who hold this view. I also go to a Missionary Alliance Church that holds to the pre trib rapture.

1Jo 1:3  ... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

asaph

[1 - Preterist - The Tribulation Period happened in 70 AD and is old history. They have various thoughts about the Rapture and various thoughts about what age we might be living in now.2 - Pre-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.3 - Mid-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture,4 - Post-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.5 - Pre-Wrath - The Rapture occurring before God starts pouring out any of HIS Wrath on the earth.I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.]

Brothers and Sisters,


Here's a couple of more interesting facts to consider. If you want more details that you can possibly want, there are threads still here on the forum with tremendous details that are heavily documented with Scripture.

First, I think you will find this very interesting for study. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. For the Rapture of the Church, JESUS CHRIST will NOT come all the way down to the earth, rather the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be "caught up" to meet the LORD in the air.

At the Second Coming of Christ, JESUS CHRIST will definitely come all the way down to the earth, and there will be a list of terrible events against evil. There will be "hosts" in the armies that follow JESUS CHRIST. Who are the members of those armies? I'll give you a hint and say that I'm firmly convinced that I will be one of those in the hosts following CHRIST.

I've just covered a few of the major reasons why I believe that the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST will be raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation Period. There are many other reasons why I firmly believe this, but I will quickly say this is simply my opinion. I've studied other various time lines and sequence of events that I can't get to mesh with Scriptures, but others have said the same about my opinion. Their are five general opinions about the Tribulation Period that have been debated for centuries. One of the important things for us to remember is that other Brothers and Sisters in Christ held these opinions."Which group is right or wrong isn't worth division or anyone getting angry. They are:

1 - Preterist - The Tribulation Period happened in 70 AD and is old history. They have various thoughts about the Rapture and various thoughts about what age we might be living in now.

2 - Pre-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

3 - Mid-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture,

4 - Post-Tribulation - The timing of the Rapture.

5 - Pre-Wrath - The Rapture occurring before God starts pouring out any of HIS Wrath on the earth.

I've seen fairly logical and heavily documented arguments for all of them except "Preterist", as that would mean we are already living in the Kingdom Age, but longer than the 1,000 years prescribed in the Bible. However, please don't take this as any hint that I'm making fun of the good Christians who believe this. We will all be spending eternity together with JESUS - I just don't understand the evidence or logic for this view. But, that could be my problem instead of their problem, and it really doesn't make any difference for Salvation.

Brothers and Sisters, I do believe that genuine believers in JESUS will lose Salvation in the Tribulation Period by taking the mark of the beast. There's a reason why the Holy Bible mentions this, and it doesn't mesh with the Age of Grace that we live in now. Others may call the time we live in now as the "Church Age" or other titles I can't remember right now.

So far, we've done excellent, and nobody is upset or calling anyone names.    That's great and I hope it stays that way. We've also mentioned several different opinions with highlights that would take many pages of documentation.  So, for now I would say:  everyone pat yourselves on the back for being nice. I'm enjoying the various opinions and taking notes for additional study. Several hundred feet of books have been written on this topic, so it is obviously a very difficult and time-consuming Bible Study. JESUS CHRIST must be and is the center focus for all proper studies of this issue, and the study takes one all over the Bible. It's a fascinating learning experience, regardless of what conclusion you end up with about timing and sequence of events. With JESUS CHRIST as the central focus, this is a very worthy study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21-22 NASB  For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

Brothers and Sisters-
Mid trib and post trib could actually set a date once the 70th week of Daniel begins. That is one reason I reject those positions. Bo one can know the day or the hour.

Mid Trib-This view emerged in 1941 with the publication of the book, "The End: Rethinking the Revelation" by Norman B. Harrison. They believe that the Rapture of the Church will occur at the mid-point of the seventieth week of Daniel. They see the second half of the seventieth week as the wrath of God and as a result the church will not be here when God pours out His wrath on the earth.

Post trib-There are a number of views in the posttribulation camp. Some posttribulationalists see the church in tribulation since its beginnings and do not view the seven year period as futuristic. The most prevalent view today is that the seven year period is yet in the future, and that although the Church will experience this time of tribulation, it will be sheltered by God's protection before the second coming. George Ladd in his book "The Blessed Hope" and Robert Gundry in his book "The Church and The Tribulation" both teach that the church will experience the seven year period which will conclude with the rapture of the church.

Pre trib-This view was first known as "the secret" or "any moment rapture." It is a relatively new position which was first taught by the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, Edward Irving in the late 1820's. It was then picked up by Plymouth Brethren pastor John Nelson Darby, and he first preached on it in 1843. It came to America in the late 1800's and was popularized by C.I. Schofield when he revised his Bible notes in 1917. Pretribulationists teach that the return of Christ has been imminent since the days of the early church and that the church will be raptured sometime before the seventieth week begins. Although they have no Scripture that in so many words teaches it, they teach that there are no signs and the rapture could take place at any moment. The seventieth week of Daniel is therefore considered to be a seven-year period of God's judgmental "tribulation" (hence the term pretribulation). This position generally views the seventieth week as the day of the Lord's wrath from which the church is excluded.

Pre wrath-The Prewrath position teaches that the true church will be raptured when the great tribulation by Antichrist, inspired by Satan, is cut short by God's day-of-the-Lord wrath, which will occur between the sixth and seventh seals of Revelation, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. The persecution associated with the great tribulation of Antichrist is viewed as the wrath of Satan, whereas the events that follow, beginning with the seventh seal, are considered the wrath of God. There is another term that is sometimes expressed, "historical premillennialism," which refers back to the teaching of the early church fathers before 325 A.D. They believed that the church would face the persecution of Antichrist and Christ would then reign for 1000 years upon the earth. With the exception of two, Origen and Clement of Alexandria, who were allegorists, they all taught this view. Prewrath is plainly and simply an expansion of this view which was biblical then and biblical now.

asaph

[This is the first resurrection = clarifies the significance of the resurrection of the beheaded faithful. Their resurrection is a part of a larger event that can correctly be described as "the first resurrection." Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole. For the resurrection will include all the saints of all the ages. The only biblical solution is to recognize the explanation of the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 states, For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection." Christ is described as the first fruits. Metaphorically, if Christ is the first fruits, then the rest of the harvest follows later. Paul is using the figure of speech taken from agriculture. Any farmer knows that a crop does not ripen all at once. Usually, a small portion ripen first, then the largest portion ripens and lastly a small portion ripens late. In keeping with Paul’s figure of speech, whether one is taken as the first fruits, the general harvest or the last of the harvest, all fruit would be considered part of the harvest. There is one harvest regardless of when the fruit is picked.The next gathering of ripened fruit (resurrection of the dead) will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia). The apostle Paul describes it as a "snatching away" of the righteous living and dead. Paul indicates that this event will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia) (1 Thess 4:16). Revelation 20:4 indicates a final group (the late harvest) will finish the harvest begun with the resurrection of Jesus. This harvest from Christ to the beheaded dead constitutes "the first resurrection."]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection contains those who were beheaded for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are raptured. Therefore, the Rapture must take place after the Mark of the Beast.

Christ's Serf

Here the phrase, "the first resurrection" does not infer that there was no resurrection prior to this one but rather this resurrection is in the class of or order of the first resurrection. Let me post a brief commentary concerning this, which will clarify what I am saying.

This is the first resurrection = clarifies the significance of the resurrection of the beheaded faithful. Their resurrection is a part of a larger event that can correctly be described as "the first resurrection." Since only the beheaded dead are described as resurrected in Revelation 20:4, this must be a part of a greater whole. For the resurrection will include all the saints of all the ages. The only biblical solution is to recognize the explanation of the apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 states,

    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Paul clearly delineates several groupings, all of which constitute "the first resurrection." Christ is described as the first fruits. Metaphorically, if Christ is the first fruits, then the rest of the harvest follows later. Paul is using the figure of speech taken from agriculture. Any farmer knows that a crop does not ripen all at once. Usually, a small portion ripen first, then the largest portion ripens and lastly a small portion ripens late. In keeping with Paul’s figure of speech, whether one is taken as the first fruits, the general harvest or the last of the harvest, all fruit would be considered part of the harvest. There is one harvest regardless of when the fruit is picked.

The next gathering of ripened fruit (resurrection of the dead) will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia). The apostle Paul describes it as a "snatching away" of the righteous living and dead. Paul indicates that this event will occur at the Lord’s coming (parousia) (1 Thess 4:16). Revelation 20:4 indicates a final group (the late harvest) will finish the harvest begun with the resurrection of Jesus. This harvest from Christ to the beheaded dead constitutes "the first resurrection."

I hope this helps.

asaph