[promised by God]

I noticed you quoted a person named Van Kempt. Never heard of him, but if you go by others interpretations instead of you own Spirit, you will never understand the bible as being mostly fulfilled as promised by God thru the prophets. Revelation is nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem "spiritual babylon"(beast of the earth) by the roman army(beast of the sea), and to make anything else out of it, takes away the glory and power of God that the bible brings to us. Jerusalem was already judged and condemned by God centuries before, and He brought it to past. But to each his own, but as far as my family and people I know, we live each day in Christ and His Father and feel blessed to be part of their Family now.
     The only thing I have seen future in the bible is for all those who come to believe in God thru His Son Jesus Christ, is to proclaim His message to others and to live as Jesus lived, knowing we will have eternal life with them when we die. Knowing this is all I need to be happy in the Lord and to also keep others in the Lord also, so their hope and joy will be complete thru Him.
    God's kingdom is already here with us now and He controls everything as He is all in all.

 To each his own I guess. Respectfully though, you are dead wrong about Revelation my friend. The main thing is you love Jesus.

 Take care...

 Bronzesnake.

   Thanks for being understanding. Yes I love Christ and believe unto Him because He is the only way to God. And I love the bible more than any book in the world as it is the Words of Truth and Life.
    I wanted to tell people of my undertanding withoug being labeled, as it is truly the way I saw it when reading it on my own and is my own personal view of revelation the way I saw it, no one else's, and is strictly "biblical" from no outside source.
      Peace and grace to all thru our Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father and may Christ bring the joy, peace and happiness that is in Him.

[everyday]

Amen Brothers!

I've been thinking about this often. One can talk about the basic principles of Bible Study and even try to spoon-feed someone for a time. However, there comes a time where nothing can replace a person's individual effort and study on their own.

I like the Biblical description of the babe in Christ drinking the spiritual milk of HIS WORD and the maturing Christian growing up in HIS WORD, finally progressing to the meat of HIS WORD. I give thanks for the patience of many to feed HIS flock.

The student must eventually do large amounts of individual study on their own and not depend upon every sip or bite being raised to their lips by the teacher. Here is where the joy becomes more full and the Holy Spirit becomes a guide and teacher. There is a secret here to be discovered by the student. There are always willing teachers when there is an eager and willing student to put forth some effort of his or her own.

Love In Christ,
Tom

  Excellent post Tom[Blackeyepea] I couldn't agree more on that myself!!!!. A person truly in the spirit of God will want more wisdom and knowledge of the Father who created us, and the bible is the only place to get it. But it must be read everyday, and if possible, a whole book of the bible in one sitting to really get the full message of it. I can't go one day without reading chapters out of the bible, but I will usually read all of Paul's epistles at one sitting or a whole gosple at one sitting. Each time I read, more and more of it comes alive for me and every word written is a feast for my eyes and soul. Always say a prayer asking God to guide you with His book, and believe me, He will answer it!!! The bible is the only book in the world to me now and am even doing my own translation of it to more learn it, using 6 translations and lexicons, and it is a lot of fun and a joy for me. No better hobby in the world

[Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father Who is in heaven."]

   Those who live for God and His Son do indeed try and tell people that the true way of Christ is love for others, even our enemies. The way to disarm belligerent and evilness is thru love and compassion, as Paul said we would heap hot coals on their laps by doing this. We will be judged by God on how we performed with others here on this earth, even if it means being ridiculed, mocked or even hurt. Judgement belongs to God alone. We can rebuke people, with kindness if possible, and if it is God's will, He will open that person's eyes, otherwise, we have done as God has said for us to do, to try and live in peace with all and let the light of Christ shine thru us to others. This world could go on thousands of more years, but we must do all we can to bring God into people's lives everyday while we are alive on this world today. Peace and grace to you.

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father Who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:14-16)

If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; for you will heap coals of fire on his head, and the Lord will reward you (Proverbs 25:21, 22; RSV).
Do not give heed to every word that is spoken lest you hear your servant speaking ill of you, for you know in you heart that you have many times spoken ill of others (Ecclesiastes 7:21, 22; NEB).
Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21; RSV)

[Israel [10 northern scattered tribes]]

  The big clue should be the 12 tribes mentioned. It is because of that, that we can identify the 2 beasts(nations) in revelation.
      Once you see the 10 horns of the beast of the sea as the 10 scattered tribes of Israel(rome), and the beast of the earth as the 2 southern tribes(Jerusalem), and see the beast of the sea utterly attacking and making desolate the "great holy city"(spiritual babylon/Jerusalem), you will have no problem seeing what revealtion is.
     Other than that, I guess I won't waste my time on it anymore and let the endtime prophecy books and movies interpret it for everyone else.
     We all still belong to Christ and the family of God, so I am very strong in my conviction and belief  in both.

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

     Thank God I read the bible first before I got into all this other doctrinal beliefs. Seriously though, if more of you would actually really read through the bible, praying to God for wisdom and knowledge of His words, thru His Holy Spirit, I really feel you will see the real truth of God's words in it, just as the followers of Christ did back in the first century. Read it like you were them, listening to Christ and reading the letters and epistles of Christ's desciples and apostles as if you were back then. Then you will see more clearly that everything was concerning that age and old heaven and earth.
      Other than that, God bless you all thru Jesus Christ, His glorious Son and our savior. Thank you God for opening my eyes to your words of Truth and giving me the spirit to discern it with your wisdom and knowlege.

Whatever you feel you believe in Bronze. I don't go to other sites, except for bible versions and lexicons to help with my own study thru the Spirit.
     Fortunately, more are beginning to see the real truth in God's words, just as they did in the first century, and we are living in God's kingdom now.
     Anyway, you have your beliefs, and I am quite happy in mine, as God came to me and I know I am saved in Jesus Christ and only await living eternally with Him when I die. I will bring His message to others and show them the joy and happiness that is in Christ and to simply love God and others, thru His Son. I guess the end time prophecy books will continue to outsell the bible, what a shame. For those who need for Him to show up in the future "earthly reign", I can only hope their dream comes true.

[Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king(of Babylon) made an image of gold(600?), whose height was threescore cubits(60), and the breadth there of 6 cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 4 Then the herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up; 6 and whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace 28 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants (from the furnace) that trusted in Him, and have changed the king's word, and have yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.]

  The "mark of the beast" is the opposite of the "seal of God". Those who followed the corrupt religious leaders of jerusalem "spiritual babylon", met their horrible death in the siege of Jerusalem in 70ad. A mark is a "target", someone marked for destruction. As the "144000" were sealed from this destruction, so the ones that worshipped the "enemies" of God and Christ in the first century met with destruction. Look at Daniel to see the description of the the number "666". It was the number of the babylonian "statue", which represented Jerusalem in pre 70ad.
  It is umbiblical to put that 2000 or more years in the future, unless you just like reading fiction books and end times sites. Unless you really read and study the prophets, revelation will always remain a "fiction" book to many.


Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and His Number is Six Hundred and Sixty-Six.(600/60(3score)/6)
IMAGE:   1504 eikon i-kone' from 1503; a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:--image 1503 eiko i'-ko apparently a primary verb (perhaps akin to 1502 through the idea of faintness as a copy); to resemble:--be like.
mark: 5480 charagma khar'-ag-mah from the same as 5482; a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):--graven, mark. 5482 charax khar'-ax from charasso (to sharpen to a point; akin to 1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, i.e. (by implication) a palisade or rampart (military mound for circumvallation in a siege):--trench(which would cause a famine because No One could get food?).ANOTHER WORDS, "MARKED" FOR DESTRUCTION.

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king(of Babylon) made an image of gold(600?), whose height was threescore cubits(60), and the breadth there of 6 cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 4 Then the herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up; 6 and whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace 28 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants (from the furnace) that trusted in Him, and have changed the king's word, and have yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

[promised by God]

I noticed you quoted a person named Van Kempt. Never heard of him, but if you go by others interpretations instead of you own Spirit, you will never understand the bible as being mostly fulfilled as promised by God thru the prophets. Revelation is nothing but the destruction of Jerusalem "spiritual babylon"(beast of the earth) by the roman army(beast of the sea), and to make anything else out of it, takes away the glory and power of God that the bible brings to us. Jerusalem was already judged and condemned by God centuries before, and He brought it to past. But to each his own, but as far as my family and people I know, we live each day in Christ and His Father and feel blessed to be part of their Family now.
     The only thing I have seen future in the bible is for all those who come to believe in God thru His Son Jesus Christ, is to proclaim His message to others and to live as Jesus lived, knowing we will have eternal life with them when we die. Knowing this is all I need to be happy in the Lord and to also keep others in the Lord also, so their hope and joy will be complete thru Him.
    God's kingdom is already here with us now and He controls everything as He is all in all.

The new "world order" came when Christ took out His enemies and the synagogue of satan in 70ad.
    Unless you believe God hasn't poured out His spirit on you and you are now part of His kingdom and to proclaim it to the rest of the world, then you are still part of the old "world order" of Judaism, which God condemend thru the prophets and Christ.
    We are the "messiahs" of God now and we live thru His spirit now and we are His vessels to help bring others to belief in God and His son and to make this world a better plave to live.
   Anyway, I don't know about any new world order but the one that God instituted in the first century, but since I am now living in His new world order now, I feel blessed and happy in the Lord now, as do my family and people I know.
    The whold bible is centered on God bringing all of us under His kingdom here and now, and the promise of eternal life with Him when we die.

What the heck is a "pretribulation rapture". As many times as I have read thru the bible, I never heard of it except from other people and what they read on some "rapture" sites.
   I am glad I never went to them before I actually read the bible on my own thru God's spirit.
   Anyway, I hope a rapture comes true for you, but my rapture already happened last year when Christ and God came into and I was reborn again. It was the most awsome experience becoming in the family of God.
    Bless all of you.

[I will make them one nation in the land,]

The 7 heads are 7 mountains and are also 7 kings(represented the 7 churches, 5 have sinned, one "is"(Philadelphia) and the wounded 1 to come(Thyatira). 1 of the heads had a mortal wound that was healed and and 8th is also of the 7. This wounded head represents revivied "babylon" and is part of both beast: rome and Jerusalem. One of the heads turns into a "whole beast", and is what Jerusalem worships.
    All of revelation concerns the 10 scattered tribes(10 horns  of the beast of the sea without a "heavenly" kingdom as yet) and redemtion of the saints, just as the NT describes. It is nothing but the sealing of the elect of the 12 tribes and their safety from the destruction of Jerusalem(beast of the "earth" with 2 horns that speaks as a "Lamb") in 70ad, which was spiritual "babylon" and Christ's enemies. They became His footstool in 70ad. They were also the devil, false prophet and beast thrown into the "lake of fire", the fire in Jerusalem, just as prophecied by God thru the prophets and Christ, taking out the synagogue of satan and bring all tribes together thru the Holy Spirit and heavenly Jerusalem.
   Sorry folks, revelation is past, so just turn your attention to saving other non believers and keeping everyone strong in faith and belief in God thru Jesus Christ.
    May the spirit of God be with you.

revel 13:1And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
REVE 17:9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13These are of one mind and hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."
  And now the prophecy for this:
Ezek 37:21 "And say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

Hmmm. Someone isn't reading something right in revelation.
  If you say revelation is in order, you are very badly mistaken my friend.
   There is a temple being measured and 2 witnesses being sent, all in the same paragraph in chapt 11. If you take revelation literally, you will never understand it, as it is in the same jewish symbology and figuratism and most of the rest of the bible is.
    The beast of the sea are the gentile 10 scattered tribes. The beast of the earth are the 2 southern tribes (Jerusalem).
   The 7 churches represent the 7 heads. The 2 witnesses represent "Christ" as law/prophet, spiritual Moses/Elijah (not actual "bodies").
  Once you understand the sybolism presented in revelation, and what God's plan was in the OT, you will see revelation as the destruction of Jerusalem/"babylon", the old heaven and earth of that jewish age, and the new heaven and earth of the Holy Spirit reigning now in us.
   There is no other biblical way to interpret it, unless you want to force some kind of weird rapture into it, which I don't see.
    This is how I see it and how I presented to others that also see it like that. How the heck did a "rapture" thing ever get started?
     

Hmmm. I am lost on those last replies. I can't tell who is talking to who.
   Bronze, who were you referring to?

author=Bronzesnake
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
       This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome.

Just as Genesis spoke of the eternity past, Revelation addresses eternity future. With the book of Revelation written in 95 AD it is talking about the future, events not yet happened in addition to the church age of the past 20 centuries, not a mear history book but telling us what is to come for our spiritual benefit and for the world.

That is why you don't judaize Christianity for then only learned historians would be saved, you would be blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age so you can live evilly, and having no faith that Jesus Christ can return to reign in Person for a 1000 years is also deadness of the spirit taking away reward for overcoming in Christ so that you can remain soulical. God's way is in the spirit.

The beasts are two, a false prophet and the Antichrist who have not yet come. The 144,000 in Rev. 14 are virgins close to Christ who are Christians. The 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are not Christians but a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation God promises. In Matt. 24.13,14 the Jews testify to the world of the sovereign God by their desparate actions.

This should not be construed as the sealed 144,000. The sealed 144,000 has direct meaning in Rev. 7.1-8, not the 144,000 of Rev. 14.1, that a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved. The reason this is so hard for so many to understand is because most are legalists and don't let their spirit be reached by depth of God's meaning.

Praise God!

http://christianity.3.forumer.com/

  Hmmm. Ok. It is a jewish nation being destroyed, as prophecied by God and Christ.
     But if your spirit has led you to believe different thatn mine (and not because of futuristic prophecy fiction books around), then I guess I won't argue with you on it. My interpretation is biblical with half of the bible scriptures to back mine up.
   It is a jewish city being destroyed by a gentile army being willed by God Himself to attack the Harlot/Jerusalem. If you can't see that, then I guess I will have to stick with it on my own and a few others that have also seen it like this. The bible is complete for me and is how I read it, otherwise it would be unbelievable for me. But I let God help me with interpreting it, so don't try and tell my I am wrong and I won't tell you yours is wrong. I have already described what the book of Jonah represented and revelation represented, so I can't add anything else.
     God bless you and yours.

Hmmm. False belief huh? Well, I am definately happy and content with my walk with God and His Son and feel more and more alive with them everyday.
  When I visioned what revelation was about, I had the greatest feeling and knew then that the bible was indeed the devine written book of God. I have never seen any contradictions in it at all and the whole book is harmonized so well, a million super computers couldn't write a book as God inspired as the bible. You can believe in rapture doctrines if that makes you happy in the Lord, but for me, I am happy to see it fulfilled as I do and so are my family and loved ones. We preach the word of God whenever we can and my love for Him and His Son is more powerfull today than ever. Sometimes I feel like I am looking at the world from the outside, a kind of heavenly feeling that is hard to describe. The bible is the only book in the world to me, because it was sent down by God thru His Son Jesus Christ, so you don't need to tell me how to rightly divide the word, as God thru His spirit helps me with that.
    I only wish others could experience it the way I and others have. Regardless of whether you believe in a "rapture" or not, just being in God's family is the best blessing anyone can have. God bless everyone here.