BrotherLove,

Notice here that Paul, the human writer of this verse says, "If we believe not". Paul is including himself in this hypothetical situation. Paul is obviously saved and yet he says, "If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:". If Paul for some reason had stopped believing he would still be saved because God would still be faithful and so Paul concludes the verse by telling why he would still be saved. "He (God) cannot deny Himself." To better understand this let us be reminded that once

Once a person makes a true decision to believe the gospel then they, at some point later in their life, CAN NOT choose to not be saved. Once theyve made the decision to believe they are secure in their salvation.

Even if we don't really believe wholeheartedly later, or completely lapse, or even attempt to deny Christ, God will not allow it. We made a decision and now we're stuck with it.

I'm glad that you used the word 'human'. If you read the rest you would think it was God himself speaking.
If it were not a possibility there would be no need to even mention it. You are confusing man's faithlessness or weak faith with the God's faithfulness. God cannot deny Himself because He does not change. He does not renege on His promises. For man, that is a different story.

"He (God) cannot deny Himself." God cannot deny the Body of Christ, which are the believers in this age

Are you equating a single believer to the whole Body? The Body has tares within, Yes? How did they get there. Will they be gathered with the grain?

Heidi,

Sojounrer,
The Holy spirit HAS PRESERVED THE TRUTH IN THE CHURCH? So why has the church changed its mind in regard to not reading the mass in Latin? In 1850, why did Pope Leo suddenly ADD to the bible and declare Mary a virgin all of her life? If they were infallible then every teaching they gave from the beginning would still be used to day, would it not? The bible CANNOT be added to or subtracted from. So why does the infallible CHURCH change its mind? Weren't they right to begin with?

Heidi, how many times have I stated that I am Orthodox? Did you ever attempt, not just ot acknowledge this fact, but even do a little research to find what that Chruch actually is and possible where it might differ from the Roman Catholic Church.
What you said here does not apply to me in the least, except the very first one dealing with the Virginity of Mary. All the rest are Roman and not Orthodox.
And, absolutely, yes, the Orthodox has not changed the faith since the beginning.
That is as far as I will go on that for now.

Whatsayyou,

Excellent posts. Amen.

Heidi,

You have been brainwashed by the catholic church to believe that THEY and they alone HAVE the Holy Spirit because the apostles did....That is NOT what Jesus teaches at all!

That clearly does not align with your personal view. But you need to stand back of your accusation here. Prove either you correct or the catholic church, that is the Orthodox catholic church is in error.
In truth, I have been brainwashed by the Holy Spirit. He lead me to accept the One True Church and I excercised my will in choosing Him this day. Then I permitted the Church to teach me what that Gospel actually was as it was given to the Apostles.
Sorry, Heidi, but that is precisely what Jesus taught. Just read your Bible, but then if one does not have the Holy Spirit, discernment is not available, that might be your problem. Did you ever consider it, Heidi?

What do you think the Holy Spirit does, Sojourner? anything? How do you think Paul ALL OF A SUDDEN believed that Jesus was the Son of God? Do you even think? Who do you think Jesus said our COUNSELOR-THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH is? The CATHOLIC CHURCH? How do you think we have the ability to discern truth from fiction? From the tooth faiy? just a guess? Guessing is NOT faith, it's DOUBT. You have ZERO faith that the Holy Spirit has ANY powers at all! But the catholic church is INFALLIBLE!!!!

I have already clearly answered the first part. But as usual you will continue to run your broken record over, and over, and over again. Are these pat answers because no matter what post, any thread, they seem to be the same tired phrases which have long been disproved.

Not actually the Catholic Church. But yes, the catholic church, the one that started with the Apostles. It is still alive today. Check it out for yourself.

We have the ability to discern truth from fiction because the Holy Spirit has preserved that Truth in His Church and thus we don't need to formulate new gospel. We just need to divide the scriptures. One can easily discern false from truth this way. Why do you think I can easily say you are incorrect. I have 2000 years of the same teaching, same practice, same faith, with the same Holy Spirit that has authenticated His faithful working of that Truth in the faithful and martyrs.
How about showing me wrong. Prove your personal view is actually the Gospel once given to the Apostles.

Show me from scripture how you develop your doctrine of the Holy Spirit? the Church? How you understand the Incarnation? Your Christology?
It probably would still be your personal interpretion but I at least would have some new arguments to see instead of your tired, false understandings.

Since you have not proven anything, I'll stick with the catholic Church (Orthodox) to lead me. Christ is better than you leading any day.

Heidi,

Do you know who rules false prophets, sojourner? Jesus said the Counselor is the spirit of truth. So how then can false prophets have the Holy Spirit in them? It's impossible. Deceit comes from  the devil.

Why are you asking? Did I say the opposite. I don't recall, I kind of doubt it.

Oh so YOU make it possible for the Holy Spirit to do good works, instead the the Holy Spirit making it possible for YOU to do good works!

Again, I checked and I have not so stated. You will need to quote this as well. I think you are again paraphrasing something to suit your view, not really what I stated.
What was stated is that Christ's Work makes it possible for any human being to have communion with God. This makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to call all men to repentance and once an individual believes, is converted, regenerated, the Holy Spirit assist that individual in doing the works for which man was created.

For a change Heidi, why not try to quote or paraphase correctly without putting your interpretation on what someone stated and make it a lie. You are quite dishonest to say the least.

You are then a universalist? You did'nt clarify that statment I made regarding the logical implications of your view.
It amazes me also that I several days ago in other posts had asked you direct questions and they are never answered. Micheal has asked direct questions attempting to get clarifications and no response either.
If anyone shows fear it is you. You cannot stand behind your view. You have yet to prove it is anything but heidism.
Lots of accusations but no proof of them.

Heidi,

Again; "No one can come the me unless the Father who sen me draws him." Since you don't understand how God draws us and how HE CAHNGES our hearts, you will then think that it's YOU YOURSELF who comes to God.

Same-o, Same-o Heidi,

You interpret me to make it fit so your view stands.
First, the paraphrased verse you use, you had better recheck again. If you really want to use this text for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it is only the indwelling Spirit that calls, thus all are believers because you have previously stated that you know that the Spirit dwells only in the believer.  Thus by sheer logic you are supporting a universalist view. All men literally are saved, period.

The text makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to work in the world. That is the universe. See Acts 2:16-21. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2. We, that is the universe was redeemed so that the Holy Spirit could be poured out on mankind, not believers or would be believers. It is this work, external, through the word, that convicts you to make a decision. THAT DECISION IS ALL YOU. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. There is absolutely nothing to boast about, because if Christ had not died and been risen, the Spirit could not call me, and I would have been uable to answer his call. That makes it all Him and not me in the least that got me to the decision. However, THE DECISION IS MINE TO MAKE, CHANGE, TO REJECT, TO QUENCH THE SPIRIT.

Now, once upon conversion, repentance, baptism, regeneration, the Holy Spirit is given to you internally, {indwelt) Now, Heidi, He works with you. He does not do for you. It could not even happen that way. I know you don't believe in man having a will, but that is also unscriptural, or that he looses his will and becomes a pawn of either the devil or the Holy Spirit.
It is totally illogical, let alone unscriptural, to think that either one is making the decisions. One may be in command, one more so than the other, but that is your choice of how you deal with those forces. If not, then we have an actual war  inside of you between the Holy Spirit and the devil, and as Micheal has already pointed out, the Holy Spirit has lost some of these battles if you look at it this way.  
You can believe this, that is your choice. But if you want to stick to the scriptural view and the gospel as once given, believed and taught by the Apostles, then your view is in error. You have yet to show that I might be in error in total or even partially.

The big point being, I do actually understand how we are called and how we are changed. However, you have not shown  anything which might indicate you know anything of what you speak and show it to be scriptural and have some reality to it.
It is and has been Heidism up to this point.

Heidi,

Until you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, they can NEVER be taken away.

Only His death can take away your sins, not you yourself. JESUS gets the credit for taking away your sins, NOT you. Until you understand that, you have nothing wise to say.

Your two quotes actuallyt contradict each other. Do you see that.
Jesus died for the sins of the world. It is sufficient to cover every person who ever lived.
Yet, you state correctly in the first quote, that no sins will or can be forgiven unless (we) each believer repents and asks for forgiveness - daily, continually. Once again, your idea of no will or that the Christian must not or cannot do any work belies your quoting of texts and scripture. I am not saved until I do the requesting. That is a decision of my will.
It is what I will be held accountable for.
Not all the gibberish that you state above.
What that does not speak to is the work of the Holy Spirit either internally in the believer, or externally upon all men to convict, to lead, to bring mankind to individual salvation. That is all made possible by the Work of Christ on the Cross.  It makes man the active agent.
You have a misunderstanding of what Christ actually did, what man must do and what kind of cooperation is involved. You constantly infer that it is only I that is doing all of this. That again is your blatant disregard in trying to understand what someone is actually saying. You look at everything within your paradigm with blinders on and reinterpret what someone says to fit your view.

In all the discussion I have had with you, you have never acknowledged any understanding of what I am saying. You have done the same with Michael.

What you have also not ever done is confirm that what you believe or what you are saying was ever taught from the beginning. If it is faith once given you have two thousand years of history in which to confirm it. Yet you stick to your personal interpretation.

In that same Bible, at least I assume so though at times it seems strange that you could be using the same one, says quite clearly that Christ will abide with His Church until the end. That the Holy Spirit will be given to give to that Church, the Apostles, all Truth and will abide, instruct, preserve that Truth until the end.  I Tim 3:15, Eph 1:10, Matt 28:20, Matt 16:18, Eph 2:20` You believe in Jesus's words, right, then you have 2000 years of history of believers who lived that preserved Truth.
Did they live it as you are stating it or as I have explained it? Now, granted, my explanation may be faulty but at least it can be backed up and verified by many since the beginning.
How about yours?

Heidi,

That is simply a blatant lie, Sojourner. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus! He was the ONLY member of his group who did. Jesus said;

Well, you had better go back to that chapter again and pay very close attention to verse 17, Acts 9.
Do you equate the calling or messages from God as receiving the Holy Spirit?

Possibly you aught to check Acts 2: 16-17.
Also, the only time a group was given the Holy Spirit as a group is in John 20:22. This was also before Pentacost when the world was given the Holy Spirit.
When and how  do individuals recieve the Holy Spirit?
II Cor 1:21-22,  Eph 1:13;I John 2:20,27; 3:24; 4:13. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:6.
All Truth given to the Apostles - John 14:26, John 16:13-15, John 15:26.

All Truth was given to the Apostles and it was passed on to the believing faithful. We as faithful receive understanding of this Truth  via the Holy Spirit as members of the Church which is the guardian of this Truth. We recieve it individually only when we become members of His Church. Baptism and chrismation. The verses above bear this out.

Sower,

"Our wills are neither a privilege nor a right". You seem to forget that to be created in God's image and likeness is indeed a privilege.  Ask any other creature, if you can communicate with them. You have misunderstood the import of what I said altogether.

"Theologically this could not happen". Really? Where do you get this? What were the first word's our of the mouth of Saul the persecutor of the Church? "Lord, WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO?" (Acts 9:6).  That's exactly what I'm talking about. From doing his own will as Saul, we see Paul doing Christ's will within days of his conversion. This has nothing to do with losing our essential natures, and everything to do with loving God above

I don't doubt you understand the differences but your language to describe it is not very precise.
Being created the way we are I would not call a priviledge. It just is the way it is.  You wouldn't feel any differently if you were an animal or had no will.

Again, your wording seems to say that Paul lost his will. That it was Christ's will. More precise is that Paul's will was aligned with Christ's will. They are not the same will. No matter which way he chose, it is his will that is being active, not Christ's will.
Now, if you are saying that it is Christ's will that Paul should answer the way he did, that is true. After being led the way he was and asking why he was kicking against the goads.
His will is being persuaded, those are the forces that moves us in our choices. But the choices and wills are our own.
Saying it any other way puts either God, the Holy Spirit or Christ actually doing or making the choices for us. That makes us robots and not accountable.

Heidi,

I think one of the biggest reasons you guys believe you have free will is because you think that the thoughts that are inside your head are coming from you!

Your interpretation has a lot difficulties in reconciling both Scripture, nature of man, and theology.

For me I have a will because I was created with it. It is the very essence of who I am as a person. Part of my personhood as it is of any other human being.

You couldn't give up your will if you even wanted to do so. It is the essence of your humanness. You also do not understand how our wills operate. The decisions and choices one makes is entirely yours personally. They cannot be given to anyone else, including the Holy Spirit or the devil.  However that does not say anything concerning any kind of forces that bear upon that will. Theologically under your understanding, man is no longer man and accountable. He becomes a robot operating at the whims of the devil or the Holy Spirit. Michael has already pointed out to you that the Holy Spirit in several examples in the Bible lost out to the devil.  Your understanding also makes the Holy Spirit an active agent of the devil and would be the author of your sin in your life.
Now, you may also believe that you no longer sin, have no sin in your life, then maybe I could see that the Holy Spirit is directing, orchestrating your life for you. But that is not scriptural either.
Heidi, you have to see the total illogical ramifications of such an understanding, if you are claiming it to be scriptural as originally given and taught.

Again, the rest of this post containing the quote above is saying absolutely nothing meaningful. It is again your words being put in other peoples mouths to say what they never stated and in my case what I actually believe.
If you are unsure of what someone meant, ask for clarification. Don't interject your assumptions or interpretations upon their words.

You have made some other statements that you may believe and it may be your interpretation of certain texts but they do not align with what has always been taught and believed about those same texts.  If that is what you believe, that is your choice, your will being excercised, but you cannot claim that it is what the Bible has always taught. If so, I have yet to see any verification, historicity of that belief from the beginning.
I would have my doubts that you could get beyond your own personal interpretation.

Heidi,

Apparently the Holy Spirit in the rest of us isn't strong enough to "lead us into all truth."

First, you have never been led to all Truth. You are taking a text out of context here and applying to you personally in the 21st century. This is in opposition to II Pet 1:20-21.
It is in reference to the Apostles as a group. The Apostles did not even receive it individually but as a group. That is why it is taught the same by all apostles. It was entirely given to them and they have imparted it the the faithful of that day and generations have done so to this day. That it has endured and has been keep faithfully by the faithful is a testament to the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit working in Christ's Church, which is His Body.

You constantly say that you are led by the Holy Spirit. You are led only in understanding, not in interpretation. There is a vast difference. It was once given. All of it was once given. The faith, and its practice. It is THE CHURCH WHICH HAS IT, not individuals. The CHURCH IS CHRIST.
Christ is Head and the authority. The Bible is not the authority, but Christ who gave it and its interpretation through the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.

But in reality they look to the church for answers instead of Christ alone.

You also keep saying that the difference between us is that we (Michael and I) believe in the Church and that you, in particular, believe in the Holy Spirit. That the Church is wrong based on your interpretation and you are correct. Leaving personalities aside, Scripture clearly says that the Church OF Christ is the only guardian of the Truth. That Church is Christ Himself. So you are in effect saying that Christ is not correct.
Christ is the Church, the Holy Spirit is given to its members who reside in that Body, and as the guiding force, lives that Truth in the faithful.  
That is why I can say with conviction that I believe in ONE HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. Why? because it is Christ Himself.

Also, your assessment that the war on the forum is between those of faith & works is incorrect as well.

It is more correct to say it is about faith and those who believe in faith alone. It is not about faith and works. Faith IS works.
If you learn anything, you aught to learn how to represent another's views, even though you disagree with them.  It is very rare that you even attempt to restate it correctly as stated by others.
Is it possible that you actually do not understand what others are saying or explaining.

Rich,
Ok,

Heidi,

Mark, 11:24, "Therefore i tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have it and it will be yours." That includes salvation. That whole passage is faith alone!!!

Sorry, Heidi, that is a contradiction to your stated belief.
Prayer is a work. Prayer is one of those things Christ commands. It is not if you pray, but when you pray. It is faith however, but not alone.


JudgeNOt,

then God will never abandon you, you will NEVER denounce them!

Now, the first part of the statement is true because God is saying it respective of Himself. However, He stated it to ALL men, heathen and believers. He saved ALL. That is what is known as the Work of Christ on the Cross. It is the part of which you have no understanding because you never get to the personal acceptance through faith.
Unless you believe that you are perfectly righteouss, and have attained that perfection and cannot sin, then you could say sincerely, that you would not forsake or abandon God. However, if you are truly human living in this world, we are still all sinners and we can clearly reject Christ at any time.
It's known as free will, one of the elements of our nature which was created in God's image.

Rich has it correct until he mentions the words meritorious Nothing is merited. If it was we would not need Grace. It is all Grace, nothing but Grace. And the works we do is out of obedience and love to God and man.

Judgenot,

Jesus died for ALL sin - past, present, future - for those who believe (really, really believe) that He is the Way.

The way you have written this and sort of implied it, it is a contradiction.
Christ died for all sins period. Believers and unbelievers. However, unless repentance is involved and we do that by appropriating Christ's work throught faith asking for repentance, then Christ did not die for your sins pesonally.

Judgenot,

"Once saved always saved" is a unique perspective that was received through the Trinity.  If you have the Father and Son and Holy Spirit - I mean TRULY have them - then God will never abandon you, you will NEVER denounce them!

The Bible does not teach this anywhere. So it must be your personal teaching, Right?

Heidi,

Once again you fail to answer a direct question. Michael added absolutely nothing to the text. He wrote it out for you and you get stuck on your verse. It seems it is the only verse in the Bible for you. Even if a verse corroborated the one you use you would deny it, only because it is not the verse.

I would be interested in your answer here.

Just an added note as I have not seen anyone either acknowledge or comment on my much earlier post regarding the petition in the Lords Prayer.

We are not forgiven until we forgive our brother. The same triangle is always in progress. God, brother, me. Sin against brother is a sin against God, but God wants us to forgive our brothers first, then He will forgive.
Ever ongoing, constant. Unless one feels that they no longer sin.