Partial Rapture?!
What is that?
Being taken up to meet to Jesus in the clouds and half-way there..Whoops! Sorry. Wrong person.  You stay here. Down you go!  

I know I should read into it first but I don't care to right now.  It just struck me as a little out there.

No that is not what partial rapture means. That is a mistaken assumption. It means that at first rapture those who are ready to be received to the throne will be received if they keep the Word of His patience (obviously not all Christians do this, so they will be without rewards reigning in the millennium), ie, Rev. 7.9. Rev. 12.5, 14.1, Matt. 24.37,40-41 (taken), Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, for being ready. The rest are left to be received at the 7th trumpet resurrection (1 Thess. 4.15-17, Rev. 11.15, 1 Cor. 15.50-52 and the "left" in Matt. 24.37,40-41) -  pretty simple. Not eveyone wants this so God will deal with them accordingly. It denounces all the common widepath views today. And these are the findings,

1. historicalists (amill., post-mill., preterisms) blunt the solemn warning at the end of this age so they think they won't know the wrath of God, and they have no faith Christ will return to reign in Person for 1000 yearsand reward His overcomers (note, not all Christians are like those of the 5 wise virgins).

2. pretrib and midtribber onlyists are overassumers and when they go through the Tribulation they won't realize it and take the mark of the beast for their fantasy.

3. posttribber and prewrather onlyists are hardening their spirit waiting for the Antichrist who must proceed Christ, taking away the hope of the church hardening their hearts for with the hope of Christ is an escaping the Hour of trial based on readiness to be received to the throne (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).

Types of Unsalvation

We can sum of the sins of the various views very simply showing their unsalvation or carnal Christianity. There are 3 basic groups of carnality. Group 1 being the worse where we can be certain at least 99% are unsaved. Group 2 is bad also and we could say is at least 98% are unsaved. And group 3 is at least 97% unsaved.

The three groups are,

1. historicalists (amill., post-mill., preterisms) blunt the solemn warning at the end of this age so they think they won't know the wrath of God, and they have no faith Christ will return to reign in Person for 1000 yearsand reward His overcomers (note, not all Christians are like those of the 5 wise virgins).

2. pretrib and midtribber onlyists are overassumers and when they go through the Tribulation they won't realize it and take the mark of the beast for their fantasy.

3. posttribber and prewrather onlyists are hardening their spirit waiting for the Antichrist who must proceed Christ, taking away the hope of the church hardening their hearts for with the hope of Christ is an escaping the Hour of trial based on readiness to be received to the throne (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).

Each sins in their own unique way.

Is there any spiritual Christians here?

1. OSAS Arminian
2. partial rapture
3. proper Biblical locality
4. man is triparite
5. coming millennial reign of Christ in Person and reward for His overcomers.
6. church is not christendom
7. new city is a literal city
8. new earth is without a sea

[Father's name]

Bronzesnake writes - The 144,000 as seen in Rev 7:3 are Jews who converted to Christianity during the Tribulation Hour. God commands His angels not to begin their destruction of the earth until He has put His seal in their foreheads, thus, protecting the newly saved 144,000.

There is no indication they have come to Christ during the Tribulation Hour. It is best you do not overassume this for you will not find anywhere in the Scriptures your claim. Rather, the 144,000 are the preserved promise of a remnant nation of Israel's 12 tribes. God keeps His promise and will protect this small group. Yes Israel will be a testimony to God through the Tribulation, but in preaching Jesus Christ but as a testimony to the world of God. See "witness" in Matt. 24.14. These shall be a witness to the whole world, not to preach God but their being a central pivotal point in the world's affairs nearing the end of this age. This is their witness. They are not preaching the Bible, Jesus or such. This 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 escapes into the wilderness and protected, as Rev. 12 says she is the woman, which now beomes Israel, flees. (Rev. 12.6). The woman, the eternal will of God, first delivers the overcomers in Christ (man-child) then she becomes Israel fleeing into the wilderness protected for a times, time and half. The negative consequence of your believe is to take away the reward of the kingdom to overcomers called out of the church such as those few mentioned out of the 7 churches in Rev. 2 and 3. You remain fleshly and carnal by denying this.

When we look carefully at Rev 14:1 we see Jesus standing on Mount Sion, and He's not alone. The 1444,000 are with Him. It's the very same 144,000 that received God's seal in their foreheads in Rev 7:3. You'll notice the different grammatical terminology used which differentiates between the two verses...( I'm not going too fast am I? )

 In Rev 7:1 they are receiving the seal of God. In Rev 14:1 they are not receiving the seal - they already have the seal! They got the seal back in Rev 7:3, during the Tribulation, before Jesus returned. However, in Rev 14:1 Jesus has returned, and He is standing with the 144,000.

 Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

It is also unethical of you to falsely accuse me with more debasing terminology without you giving proof. Not once have you done this, yet you blame profusely.

The 12 tribes of Israel and a remnant thereof are still on earth, but this is mount zion on in heaven.14.1        Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

You are isolating yourself like a legalists taking something that you think is obvious not seeing the differences in these two groups even after you are told what they are. It is as if your spirit is dead and can't understand anyway. They can't be in heaven while they are being chased on earth. It is because those in mount zion in heaven are not being chased, but in fact they are the chasers. They are the ones chasing Satan out of heaven, while the Jewish remnant is hiding and protected in the wilderness of the world.

Are you for real? Every response to you that I have posted has Biblical comparisons between your nonsense and what God actually says. Can you read? Or are you so blinded by your own narcoses that you can not accept anything except your own convoluted ramblings?

Every post you have posted is locked in legalism like a pharaisee. Your main focus is the number 144,000 that therefore they must the same and that they are sealed and that they must the same. But given the rest of what is said we can not say they are same for clearly these are two different classes of 144,000 and there has been no less than 16 reasons given why they are not the same. But you do not hath an ear to hear. To be sealed is to be done in secret for that is what the 7 seals being broken means over the mystery age of the church the past 2000 years. Also 144,000 are two classes, two very special groups, one as virgins in Christ and the other that bewails virginity for that is the characteristic of the OT ways. We are very thankful for such a comparison. The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.) It is highly recommended you study deeply what is being taught to you because for now all I see is a dead spirit locked in his ways.

You keep eluding to your web site. Any idiot with a severe case of narcissistic verbal diarrhea can make any outlandish claim he or she wants to. We are dealing with the Holy Bible here my friend, so I don't need to read your CRAP to know what God is telling me. I have several Bibles, thanks any way.

You have several Bibles and you treat them all like crap. For a man who hath not an ear and shuts is mind down like you do is a sure sign of deep deception and mental deprivation because you have smothered your spirit. You are so inflexible you can't see I have been mentioning these 16 points with all along on that site of mine. It is hard to get out of your ways but that is what you need to do.

Clearly, we must admit together that those in Rev 14.1-5 are not those of Rev. 7.1-8. God is not so sloppy with terminology, therefore it is impossible guaranteed that they are not the same.

 Finally! you admit it's impossible that they are not the same.
 In other words, they are the same!

Your wishful thinking is just wishful fantasy. Don't read just want you want to see, for did I not say "those in Rev. 14.1-5 are not those in Rev. 7.1-8". It is impossible guaranteed. Guaranteed of what? That they are not the same. Don't read selfishly or to argue for you make yourself look foolish, and not for Christ.

The twelve elders are obviously a combination of Old and New Testament saints. They are never called archangels, that's another one of your incorrect assertions. They are called ELDERS, and are depicted wearing white raiment, with crowns upon their heads. That makes it undeniable that they are men, not angels.

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

The church is never called elders. Never, not even once. Therefore the 24 elders represent administration such as the 24 courses in the OT. But here the number 24, a very definite number are the the administration of aother, that of archanges, which is even some new revelation in a book of Revelation, to be expected. These white rainments have never been washed by the blood of the lamb. These 24 archangels don't know anything of the redemption of Christ personally for they do not have sin.

If you scroll down to section 4.4, you will read 10 reasons why the 24 elders can not be the church and must be the archangels.


Note an additional 5 reasons that followed for additional proof that they are the 24 archangels conclusively. Praise God!

[servants of our God]

Bronzesnake writes -  As you can see my oft' wrong friend, you did indeed misquote me, as in evidenced by your post ( Re:Don't you know partial rapture solves the problem!!)

I have not misquoted you. You only thing you see something, though it is not reality.

Then, you admitted you made a mistake, but tried in vain to cover it up. Now, you simply lie, and tell me I'm fantasizing!    

I didn't admit a mistake since I am not aware of a mistake I have made nor have you shown any. So why would I be covering up since there is nothing to cover up? You are on a trip of fantasy to be sure, your own vanity. Let it go.

I have not ascribed one of his quotes to you Snake. This is your fantasy. It is your error.

Your grammar is horrible my friend, and hard to decipher at times ( most times) but I get your drift...and you are severely confused!

I actually find your grammar to be atrocious. You can't keep declaring people wrong and then having yourself no explanation. These things I have shared with you are very precise language of God in His Word which you can not blithe over so aggregiously and think you can escape them by making a declaration and then leaving it at that. Now that is the essence of vanity.

both the 144,000 Jewish remnant and the 144,000 virgin Christian firstfruits

 Please show me the verses which use this exact terminology to differentiate between these two groups of 144,000

 You can't do it because you made it up yourself!.

You keep asking for the proof and I keep giving it back to you. You keep shoving it away, and I keep passing back onto your lap.

The language used in Rev. 7.1-8 is so different than that of Rev. 14.1-5 in so many aways that it is undeniable they are not the same group despite this delusion of yours even for decades. You need to study instead of getting so excited. Spend some patient time with these two links I have given you.

Let's see what it really says...

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 Wrong...again!

The sum of your statement is "wrong...again"! What wrong? You never said. Do you see how you are being selfish in your own little world. When you speak you should provide and explanation for that is a courteous and righteous thing to do.
The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father). You need to read deeply and not be so shallow. You stop so short of the glory of God in your reading I am not sure you will ever understand. Do you see how you are wrong again?

You claim the next verse Rev 14:1 speaks of ...

the Lamb and the name of the Father

God says...
 Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. ( Who is Jesus' father? what's that? oh, God! )

Both verses have "God's" seal in their foreheads, not the foolish nonsensical rabble you tried to pass off.

 To continue on next post...

Don't legalize the word seal. That is your problem. It has blinded you to what is self-evident on so many points. By being a legalists you become yourself nonsensical accusing clear reasoning. The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.            The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.
The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

I made a booboo in the previous post. It should read Rev. 7.1-8, not Rev. 7.1-18.

Snake - I'm talking to christinme. He incorrectly ascribed one of your quotes to me, so I corrected him.

I have not ascribed one of his quotes to you Snake. This is your fantasy. It is your error.

Bronsnake -
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.  

The 144,000 of Rev 14:1 are clearly identified with God's name written in their foreheads.

Hey, what an amazing coincidence! so are the 14,000 from Rev 7:3! What's the odds of that? The exact same number, 144,000 and they have the name of God written in their foreheads.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

This is not a game of odds. They both have the name of God. Sealed in the foreheads means sealed in their minds, God sealing as a result, both the 144,000 Jewish remnant and the 144,000 virgin Chrisitian firstfruits, one spoken of at 7.3 and the other spoken of at 14.1. Don't escape these 8 points,
in 14.1 nor the 5 points in 14.3. You seem to blithe over them, but please consider them closely.

The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

Every place in the Bible where the Twelve Tribes are mentioned, they are all, without exception, clearly identified as JEWS. So who do you think people should believe? God's Word taken literally and straight from His Book...or a one year old Christian who has his own web site filled with convoluted thinking based on years...I mean, months of study?

I am not a one year old Christian, but a Christian of several years. Let go of your overassuming nature. 12 distinctly refers to the 12 tribes of th Jewish remnant of Rev. 7.1-8 so you need not argue this point for it does not help your case. It is unethical of you to say I don't believe this when I do, since I have said so several times already. It is also unethical of you to falsely accuse me with more debasing terminology without you giving proof. Not once have you done this, yet you blame profusely. Don't be a false accuser for that is name ascribed to Satan. If you don't want God to cast you down also, you should humble yourself and let God humble you, even His children.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If it wasn't so serious it would be a joke my friend.
I have to seriously wonder about the stability and state of mind of a person with one years exposure to the Bible and Christianity, which is the only book that he admittedly has ever read. You don't honestly expect to be taken seriously, do you?

Gen 49:28 All these [are] the twelve tribes of Israel: and this [is it] that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Exd 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exd 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, [like] the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.

Exd 39:14 And the stones [were] according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, [like] the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This [shall be] the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph [shall have two] portions.

You sound like you are talking about someone else for these things you accuse me of, none of them are me. Let yourself deal with the points that have been set before you, that is the 8 points identified in Rev. 14.1 and the 5 points of 14.4.

Clearly, we must admit together that those in Rev 14.1-5 are not those of Rev. 7.1-8. God is not so sloppy with terminology, therefore it is impossible guaranteed that they are not the same. You can blame all you like, but the fact remains, you don't deal with these 13 points and you accuse me of things that I am not. You sound like you have me confused with someone else or you are being purposefully deceitful with a lowhanded unethical approach. Let it go, put it on the cross and let it die.

(cont'd below)

Bronzesnake speaks -  I try to be patient with my fellow Christians here my friend, but you make it very difficult.
 Your arrogance is only outmatched by your ignorance of God's Word.

Sounds like your arrogance and your ignorance.

You can go ahead and continue to get your information from some web site which is full of assumption and convoluted reasoning. I will stick to the Holy Bible and believe exclusively in what God says.

It is my website, my thought given by God and though you will accuse of such things I don't recall you showing otherwise, so don't be a false blamer for in so doing you are full of assumption and convoluted reasoning. If you are sticking to the Holy Spirit and believe what God says they you won't confuse the 144,000 for clearly those in Rev. 7.1-18 are not the same as those in 14.1. Let go of your convoluted reasoning and see God's reasoning which I have fully supplied already fitting the Scriptures perfectly that testify to this fact with so many reasons it is undeniable. As a consequence of this you are not treating God's three groups properly - Jewish nation, Christians and the gentile nations. You would be mixing the first two groups horribly for 7.1-8 is a remnant preserved, while 14.1 are those closest to Christ and they are virgins too, virgin firstfruits. Why does this offend you unless you are convinced in your judaizing Christianity? Let it go. It is not of God and never will be so best you accept now.

The danger of putting your faith in the material from a web site is obvious. I can point you to several dozen web sites that make all kinds of ludicrous claims about God and the Bible. Recently, on this very forum there was postings from a nut-bar who claimed to be Jesus himself!

You have found yourself a little excuse haven't you, blaming something. What are you blaming? A website - my website, my thoughts, my believes, and the fullness of reason laid why the 144,000 Rev. 14.1 can not be nor ever will be those of Rev. 7.1-8. Here it is again, for you, a gift,

The evidence is overwhelming which proves that you are still clinging to your fleshing judaizing. Let it go.

One thing remains as fact...you claim I'm wrong, that's fine my friend, but it's only an opinion from an admitted new Christian who believes he has all the answers. On the other hand, there is absolutely no doubt what so ever, that you made a mistake by ascribing a quote to me that was not mine. You are wrong!

You are looking for excuses, eg. "new Christian". You keep reaching for examples intead of doing the one thing you have failed to do all along, examine the information. It won't bite. See what has been put porth. Don't already decide ahead of time. You will change and you will stop confusing groups 1 and 2. God never confuses God's chosen ones whom He first revealed Himself too as a nation, to the body of Christ. This is your grave mistake and what is most troubling is the real underlying reason you do this.

Here is another excuse you made - you said I have all the answers. No I don't, but you say this as an excuse again not to look at the information and gathers bits and pieces to see if what I have said is indeed true. I know you are afraid to look, but you owe it to yourself to look. Don't be afraid. My prayers will be with you. Yes. You will need to make some changes in your system, but is that really such a bad thing?

Take care my friend, if you decide to come down off your cloud and truly want to understand what God says, there are a lot of experienced Christians here, including myself, who will be ready and willing to help you out. Until then, bye.

Remember, this is your high horse for pretrib. onlyism taking away the hope of the church based on readiness and allowing yourself not to ever realize when the Tribulation occurs so that when it happens you will take the mark of the beast. You are setting yourself to do the unthinkable assuming it is not the unthinkable when you do it because you assume you are not in the Tribulation if you are in that last generation. This being mearing a reflection of your condition now.

Let go of your petty self and stay on the topice at hand, revealed here,

Such perfect sound reasoning should not go unnoticed otherwise how can you receive deliverance if you still hang your hat in confusing groups 1 and 2.

Take care my friend, if you decide to come down off your cloud and truly want to understand what God says, there are a lot of experienced Christians here, including myself, who will be ready and willing to help you out. Until then, bye.

Here is another excuse. All to avoid and not discuss the information when you said "cloud" blaming. Let go of your blaming attitude and try and understand what I am revealing to you if you hath an ear to hear. Indeed, experience can be a cloud that can blind someone for a very long time, even forever, so come down, and discuss the information and its details which if you do and if you are a Christian I am convinced you will come to acceptance. This is the third time I have posted this link in my response.

Examine the first 8 reasons in section 14.1 first.


Take some precious time, with your Bible, and examine deeply, prayerfully each of these verses cited, the reason given, and see if it holds true. If so you will have to let go of your current system of belief. That is a good thing. Praise the Lord! How often we think we know something only later to find out we didn't really know at all. It is time for you to know now. Wake up!

christinme...
 You ascribed the following quote to me. I did not say that.
 It is a quote from inhimitrust.

 

author=Bronzesnake
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
      This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome

 I believe what God says about the 144,000.

Just because Inhimtrust is wrong does not mean you are not wrong. You do not believe what the 144,000 means because it is fully proven in in reply #7. Fact and conclusion = it is impossible for the 144,000 in Rev. 7 to be the same group as those in Rev. 14, for the former clearly pertain to the Jewish remnant while the latter clearly are those virgin Christians closest to Christ the past 20 centuries. One speaks of the promise God has held to preserve a remnant and the latter speaks of the fullness of the body of Christ coming into fruition of firstfruits completed and a first rapture and the war in heaven begins before Satan is cast down at midtrib Rev. 9.1, a star. The negative consequence of what you believe then becomes inordinately judaistic and not spiritually allowing to seek the prize of attainment to receive the reward.

Praise the Lord!

Hmmm. Ok. It is a jewish nation being destroyed, as prophecied by God and Christ.

Sure Jerusalem fell in Matt. 24.2 but let your emphasis not be romanistic and historicalistic for God has much to say about the future even with new revelation in the book of Revelation for end-times written in 95 or 96 AD for past your focus.

We are currently in 24.7-8 right now.

The Great Tribulation will be 24.13-31

Our emphasis is something far greater, a being raptured to the throne at first rapture Rev. 7.9 before the trumpets are blown in the last week consummation of this age to escape the Hour of trial based only on readiness and a receiving for overcoming.

If we as Christians are not ready we will without a doubt go through the time of testing for further cleansing to be martyred or to be alive and left at the last trumpet resurrection to be raised with those resting in Christ.

Your reward for overcoming to be one of those of the first resurrection that spans parousia will be given to you if you keep the Word of His patience and are delivered from the natural self so that you can no longer be hurt by the second death.

By blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age you make it so you don't think you have to know the wrath of God, reflecting your current condition right now, and if you take away the millennial reign in the future you destroy rewards and the Bible becomes merely a historical document of no revelatory significance. You might as well throw it out for it becomes the same as other books, merely well written prose. Moreover only learned historians could be saved.

Have you no faith that Christ can return in Person to reign for 1000 years before the commencement of the new city? 6 times is the millennium mentioned from verse 2 to verse 7 in chapter 20. Is this not enough emphasis for you to let go of spiritualizing the millennial reign and accept its literal fact?

Do not read your Biblle with your flesh for you are shownig your true colors in so doing. Yes I can see you, what you are holding onto.

author=Bronzesnake
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
       This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome.

Just as Genesis spoke of the eternity past, Revelation addresses eternity future. With the book of Revelation written in 95 AD it is talking about the future, events not yet happened in addition to the church age of the past 20 centuries, not a mear history book but telling us what is to come for our spiritual benefit and for the world.

That is why you don't judaize Christianity for then only learned historians would be saved, you would be blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age so you can live evilly, and having no faith that Jesus Christ can return to reign in Person for a 1000 years is also deadness of the spirit taking away reward for overcoming in Christ so that you can remain soulical. God's way is in the spirit.

The beasts are two, a false prophet and the Antichrist who have not yet come. The 144,000 in Rev. 14 are virgins close to Christ who are Christians. The 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are not Christians but a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation God promises. In Matt. 24.13,14 the Jews testify to the world of the sovereign God by their desparate actions.

This should not be construed as the sealed 144,000. The sealed 144,000 has direct meaning in Rev. 7.1-8, not the 144,000 of Rev. 14.1, that a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved. The reason this is so hard for so many to understand is because most are legalists and don't let their spirit be reached by depth of God's meaning.

Praise God!

Rev. 3.10 says that those who are ready may escape along with Luke 21.36. Not all Christians will be ready at first rapture, and not all Christians will be called out of the church in Rev. 2 & 3 like those who receive a white stone or who sit on thrones, for these are those of the first resurrection, the "best" "out-of" resurrection from the conglomerate of parousia of  resurrection.

In order to commence the war in heaven the manchild overcomers in Christ must be born, that is first availed to be first raptured at first rapture at the start of parousia, that is, presence of Christ. The newly clothed resurrected and raptured at first rapture will eventually with Michael cast Satan out of heaven as the falling start at Rev. 9.1. Praise God. Who are these first raptured? (see bottom link).

14.1-5 “THE FIRST FRUITS”

 

14.1        Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

 

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

 

       (1)   The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.              

            (2)   The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

            (3)   The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

            (4)   Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

            (5)   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

            (6)   The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

            (7)   The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

            (   The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

 

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

 

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

 

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.

 Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

["God's" last Trump]

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

 It's not the "last trump" of Revelation which sounds at the Rapture my friend...It's "God's" last Trump.

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Sometimes an angel is sounding the trump such as...

 Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.  

 Look for yourself my friend. The last time you will find God sounding a trump is at the Rapture, found in 1Th 4:16 you won't find God sounding a trump after that, therefore it is the "final trump of God". After that, you will see that the remaining trumps are blown by angels.

 Take care...

 Bronzesnake.

You are both partly right. In the OT all the Word can do is speak in generalities as they pertain to the Last Week Tribulation. But that is what the book of Revelation is for, to give the details and new revelation in it. Its new revelation is that the TRUMP of GOD is broken up into 7 trumpet of 7 years. Each trumpet is of unequal time. Before the first trumpet is rapture of those who are ready, who kept the Word of His patience and were accounted worthy (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) who escape the Hour of trial, not just trial but the Hour of time itself. This is the only way God preserves an assurance. Then at the last trumpet of the 7 trumpets right before the bowls the rest of the body is raptured, those who are "taken and left" (1 Thess. 4.15-17)obviously since there were those who were "taken" (Matt. 24.37,40-41)  before hand at first rapture (Rev. 7.9).

You guys, stop contending with each other and come together pre+post.

Praise the Lord! Come, come now.

Come together pre+post

 The Witnesses keep telling anyone who will listen that they are the Jews, and at one time they were convinced that they were the 144,000 from Revelations and once their numbers reached the 144,000 the end of the world would be upon us all. Trouble was that when their numbers actually reached the 144,000 the world didn't end. Then they actually bi-passed the number. They quickly received (new light) and now they tell anyone who will listen that within the J.W. ranks are a "special" 144,000 who will actually reside in Heaven with God at the end of days, and their "lesser" congregation will spend eternity, not in Heaven with God, but rather, in Paradise on earth.

 The truth of the matter is that the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation are actually real 100% bonafide Jews. Not make believe, or "spiritual" wannabee Jews.

Bronzesnake

Of course the 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are bonafide Jews. But the 144,000 are not required to be Jews but can come from any nation. The latter 144,000 are those closest to Christ in the past 2000 years. Once their full number comes in, then first rapture can take place of God's overcomers who are "taken" ready to be received not having to go through the time of testing because they can no longer be hurt by the second death while the left (Matt. 24.37,40-41) also Christians are received at the last trumpet before the bowls as a matter of completion of the body of Christ raptured.

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

       (1)   The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.              

            (2)   The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

            (3)   The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

            (4)   Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

            (5)   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

            (6)   The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

            (7)   The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

            (   The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.



Some of us are ready to be received sooner than others. There are harbingers in every sphere and advanced parties. It is the very fact that those who are finally ready which causes the war in heaven casting Satan down.

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

Partial rapture is the only possibility.


Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

Thessalonians 4.16-17 Do not these verses speak of rapture? Obviously they do, yet they do not specify what time. They deal with the fact of rapture, not with the time of rapture. Thus, they can not be used to prove pre-tribulation rapture.

1 Corinthians 15.50-52 Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

Before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it may be assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6).  The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?

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