Well BEP, I'm back 
And it seems that my old username that got se(r)vered a few years back has been found!!  Annyhoo...I've been exceptionally busy, and unable to commune here, but hopefully that is now going to change for the better.  Good to be back, and good to see you. I'll be browsing to make a reconnect.

Finished some recording http://www.thebeymers.org/product, and a facelift on the old LoL site http://www.john812.com along with some more bible studies.

Talk to ya later!! 

Evangelist aka brohank

Two questions:

  1.  It sounds as if you believe all Christains should be poor or, at least, that it is more spiritual to be poor than rich.  Is that correct?  Doesn't it take money to support missions, Christian schools, churches, pro-life, etc?

Argumentum ad ridiculum....if you can't understand, or don't agree, then make it sound ridiculous.  That is NOT what was said, and you well know it.  The point is whether or not the gospel of health and wealth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I submit that it is NOT.

"As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy."

  2.  The Law is God's standard of righteousness.  Do you believe the law no longer applies?  Are we free to live in sin?  Granted, both Jesus and Paul attacked the law when misused as a method of salvation - we stand by grace alone.  But does that do away with the Law as God's standard of righteousness which the Holy Spirit is working in our lives?  God cared how people lived in the Old Testament but not the New? 

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Again, a false argument.  Since when does not living under the law mean that we are free to live in sin?  Did anyone say that we were free to live in sin?  I didn't think so.

Progressive sanctification (of the fleshly nature) is the result of the Holy Spirit working in our lives....not the result of obedience to the Law.  Failure in being perfectly obedient still results in grace and mercy, and thank God for that!

Quit setting up straw men and stick to the subject.  And that subject is....is the health and wealth prosperity "gospel" preached by Osteen and others a real gospel?  Does it convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come?  Does it speak of the atonement of Jesus through His suffering and death? 

I don't think so.

[in this world?]

The first question really is, is the prosperity "gospel" really in scripture?

It is ONLY if you fall into the camp of those who believe that the church has completely replaced Israel, and by replacing Israel has also inherited all of the promises made by God to Israel.  Of course, those who do that run into a little problem....that being that if one inherits all the blessings (prosperity and blessings in return for obedience), then one also has to inherit all the curses (plagues, blasting and mildew, palmerworms, etc) for disobedience.  And what is the obedience to?  The Law. 

As Paul made clear, we either live by the law (and are judged by it) or we live by grace, and are given mercy.

Joel falls into the class of those spoken of by Ezekiel, which today we call "pillow prophets," or those who will tell everyone what is soothing and pleasing to the ear, rather than the hard facts and truth.  Paul spoke about it when he warned Timoth that "in the last days, perilous times will come.....and they shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."  Jude also spoke to the issue, warning of "those who have crept in unawares (while we wern't watching properly)....and have run greedily after the error of Balaam..."

Does Jesus want every Christian to be blessed in this world?  Listen to His words:
"...the Son of Man has NO PLACE to lay his head..."
"...in this world you will be hated..."
"...if the world hates me, then it will hate you also..."

Does Jesus want every preacher to drive a Rolls Royce (so saith T. D. Jakes)?
Does Jesus believe that every preacher should give his wife a 25 karat diamond ring (so saith Rod Parsley)?
Did Jesus wear designer clothing (so saith John Avanzini)?

Or did Jesus say "in this world you will have tribulation (trials and troubles)?
And didn't He tell us that we have "...already been blessed in ALL things in heavenly places?"

There is only ONE Gospel...and it is the gospel of redemption from SIN (which MUST be spoken of) through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  Our reward is in heaven...not on this earth.

And I seriously doubt that God is blessing a ministry that does not speak of sin, righteouness and judgment to come.  It is being blessed by the one who does NOT want the true Gospel preached.  The devil wants everyone to feel comfortable in this world...after all, it belongs to him........for now.

One scripture that I didn't see that *I think* explains it all.

Rev. 3:20.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock..."

Which is simply that Jesus (as God) reveals Himself in truth to you...but doesn't demand entrance.  He told Peter that Pete's understanding of who He really was (the Son of God, the Christ) was NOT revealed to him by flesh and blood, but by the Father in heaven. 

"...if ANY man hears me (understands this revelation of truth), and INVITES me in (responds to the truth in acknowledgement), then I will come in to him (enter his dwelling.....heart), and will sup with him, and he with Me..."

Your originally posted scriptures, as has been said, do NOT pose a contradiction when viewed in light of ALL of what Jesus said.

God draws man by revealing the truth....John 17..."howbeit when He, the spirit of truth is come, He shall convince (reveal the truth) men of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come..."

No man can understand the truth without this revelation and conviction....but when it is revealed, and the person is convicted, then they respond...either by keeping the door closed, or by opening it....and when it is opened, it becomes a door that no man (or anything else, for that matter) can shut.

Now, let me see if I've got this straight.

Jesus walked on an ice bridge that miraculously formed in front of Him....and He was able to distinguish it from the surrounding water.  Or, it was just a small patch of ice, a floe, that He rode like a surfboard through the stormy seas.  Surf's up, dudes!

Then the guys in the boat, fishermen who knew the lake, and had spent their lives on it, had no clue what was happening, having never seen anything like it before.  And, Peter managed to accidentally step on to another piece of ice that just happened to form in the right place as he was stepping out of the boat.  Unfortunately, Peter's surfing abilities didn't match those of Jesus, so he crashed.

And to top it off, the once in 10,000 year occurence just happened to fall during the time when Jesus wanted to go to the boat.

Right.

Which is the greater miracle?

Hi Evangelist,

It looks great. A lot of excellant material there loaded with truth.

I just took a look at your John 8:122 site and I noticed there are some dead links in the left hand column.

Thanks for the heads up, brother!  It appears when I was uploading the other day, my ftp client kept dropping the connection, so a couple of files didn't make it...and I was too busy to double check.

Good stuff!! It's unfortunate that too many people don't pay enough attention.  I just posted a study, Prophets and Prophecy-Who, What, When, Where, Why and How on the subject.  See what you think.

Hi Jobeth:

Maybe this will help a little.  While God is in the process of regathering the Jews to Israel, we must remember that He is doing so while the Jews themselves are in unbelief. I believe the passages are in Ezekiel primarily.

Simply put, Jews are returning in accordance with God's decree and promise, but they are still NOT believers.  As they regather, they will blindly seek to follow that which they have known....Torah and the Mosaic commandments, ie; rituals, including sacrifice.

At the mid-point of the tribulation, when the antichrist turns on Israel and declares himself as God, profaning the temple, Jews will begin to have their blinders removed (the scales placed there by God), and through the ministry of the 144,000 converted Jews, will begin to come to Christ.  However, this move will NOT be complete until the final day, the day of Armageddon, when Christ Himself steps on Mount Zion and destroys the invading armies.  Only at that point will Israel as a whole understand, and accept Jesus as Messiah.

The Jews committing animal sacrifice during the "waiting" period is no more abomination, and no less an abomination than it was in the past....it's just part of the sequence of events.

Hebrews 10 is an explanation to the Jews about the futility of the sacrificial atonement system, and how the only lasting atonement is through the blood of Jesus....but that doesn't stop them (the Jews) from blindly following their own ideas and history.

[I know, you want the speed of greased lightning.]

  Brother, I was just thinking that some of the cult stuff going around these days is almost good enough to be stand-up comedy. Maybe we should start saving the better ones, sell them, and buy ADMIN a giant server faster than greased lightning. I know, you want the speed of greased lightning.

   Nobody knows.

Tom....no need for a bigger server, or saving the better ones, etc......just set up a live feed for TBN under the HUMOR category.

Just in case there's any Pepsi lovers here who don't know that the Mormon church owns most of it, there's now this:

Pepsi has a new "patriotic" can coming out with pictures of the Empire State Building, and the Pledge of Allegiance on them.

However, Pepsi left out two little words on the pledge,
                    "Under God."

Pepsi said they didn't want to offend anyone.
 
In that case, we don't want to offend anyone at the Pepsi corporate office, either!

So if we don't buy any Pepsi product, they will not be offended when they don't receive our money that has the words
 
              "In God We Trust" on it

There is a little known passage in Daniel that, I think, gives a huge clue to who the ac might be.....heritage wise, that is.

Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against

This is a reference to the ac, and note two things.....one, that he will enter the "fattest places", which is a Jewish euphemism for areas that have been reserved for royalty or religious leadership.  Throughout the history of Israel, there have been sections of the country that have been set aside for use by the king, or the high priest, or both....but not for others.  According to Jewish "rules", it would be considered a blasphemy for any non-Jew to enter these areas.

Next, the part that says he shall do that "which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers fathers..."  This appears to be a reference to lineage, and in conjunction with the fattest places indicates a Jewish heritage.

I have a study here on Jewish eschatology, and how their historical beliefs establish the groundwork for their acceptance of the ac as Messiah.

I also posted here re the "Mahdi", the Islamic version of Messiah, and how their historical belief system and Hadith indicate that he will be of Jewish origin or heritage. The Mahdi is supposedly hiding in a well in Qom, Iran.

Lastly, the chief Rabbi of the Kabbalists recently died.  He claimed to have spoken with Messiah, and that Messiah is currently "in hiding" waiting for the right time to appear....and that appearance would be within just a few more years.....I believe the date for the Rabbi's report was in 2004 or 05....can't remember for sure.

One thing is for sure....he is coming (the ac), and it won't be very long. 

And even more sure, is..........JESUS IS COMING!! and it won't be very long!!! 

It might be a good idea if a few of you would read Titus and Jude.

BEP, PR, and all moderators:

I would respectfully suggest that you might conisder changing your screen names to SELSUN BLUE 1, SELSUN BLUE 2, etc.

Then you'll really, truly, absolutely be FLAKE REMOVERS!! 

[And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.]

I notice that the one who started this thread is somewhat absent......but here goes anyway.

First, I'll recommend reading this study on hell so that you can get a real grasp on the concept.
Second, much of what you have to say smacks of universalist thought patterns, so I'll recommend   this study on the slippery slopes of universalism.

Lastly, you say that there is NO WHERE in scripture that specifically precludes the possiblity of someone moving from hell to heaven.  What bible are you reading?

Luk 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

and in
Rev 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and then
Rev 21:27   And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
and finally
Rev 22:11   He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

All of which speak directly to the issue of the CULMINATION (finish, end, final, no more, this is it) of human history.

Don't attempt to interject the arguments of logic and fallacy unless you intend to be absolutely logical yourself.

I think a key word here is "permits"....those who accept the mark will not only willingly accept it, they will fully understand WHO it is coming from, and why.

Whether it is a visible mark (inkstamp or tattoo) or something like the RFID chip, those who accept it will be declaring openly a willingness to follow the anti-christ, and worship him, so the idea of a true believer being "conned" into accepting something like this without knowing about it is not in scripture.

Definitely, though, the technology is now here!!  It's just waiting on the "implementer," that old snake himself.