eddielee...

Quote:
As controversial as it may sound, Rev 3:10 is a promise that guards one for temptation, it apparently
doesn't deal with any rapture, it points toward celestial protection  as depicted in:
 

You're really splitting hairs here eddie.

Sorry Bronze, I didn't write that. That post is from TwoBombs.

The last thing I wrote was concerning the restrainer.

Is that scripture really so hard to understand for you eddielee?
Or are you pretending you don't understand it because it crushes a preconceived notion you may have had?

Did you read the entire post?

Answers to Questions:
1. No;
2. No; Assumption: I don't understand it.
3. Yes;

I made some points that were disregarded, instead of addressing them you focused on my supposed ignorance/self deception.

[that he may be revealed in his own time]

2 Thes 2:
6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

If this is talking about the Holy Spirit as the restrainer, then when/how is the Holy Spirit revealed in his time?

Assumptions about this passage:

a.) That restraining the lawless one is equavalent to restraining lawlessness/evil/sin.
b.) That the Holy Spirit restrains sin in unbelievers. (meaning that the Holy Spirit restrains free will.)

Now, if this passage is speaking of the Holy Spirit, what proof is there to correlate the rapture of the saints with his ceased restraint upon the man of lawlessness?

Of course, the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent, will remain here...

Here the author admits that the Holy Spirit would still be on the earth no matter what; so how can we draw the conclusion that the Holy Spirit must be partially withdrawn in the rapture to end his restraint?

Can not the Spirit decide to stop restraining the man of lawlessness without rapturing the saints? Is this impossible for God?

The point of this is is that there is no evidence that
 a.) IF the restrainer is the Holy Spirit
    b.) He MUST rapture the saints to stop restraining the lawless one.

Now, the assumption is that to restrain the lawless one you have to restrain all lawlessness. That this must be the Holy Spirit restraining because he is supressing the sin of humanity. But the passage only tells us that the restrainer is supressing the man of lawlessness, no other evidence is given to support the idea that the restrainer is somehow keeping humanity in line.

I suppose we can start using apostasia to describe people leaving the church after the service... After all its not the actual meaning of the word that matters, only the sum of its derived parts...

"The church service ran alittle long, and many people started to get hungery, so after the apostacy we all went out to dinner."

Excerpt from http://www.nicoc.org/articles/apostasia.pdf:

Meaning is determined by usage, or semantically, regardless of whether or not it agrees with the supposed root meanings of its component parts. One cannot progress from form to meaning yet this is precisely what Dr. Ice has done. You will recall he said, "The word is a Greek compound of apo 'from' and istemi 'stand' Thus, it has the core meaning of 'away from' or 'departure'" His conclusion is based solely on etymology which, as hopefully the reader can see by now, is not even a safe guideline.

If Dr. Ice's proposition were true, we should be able to apply this etymological formula to any word. For example, the word "butterfly" is an English compound of 'butter' and 'fly.' Thus, 'butterfly' has a core meaning of "airborne milk fat." As one can readily see, this is patently false. How does one determine the core meaning of "butterfly" if not by etymology? Usage not form! How does one determine the core meaning of apostasia? Usage not form! Dr. Ice did not apply this simple rule when defining apostasia. The real core meaning, or dominant meaning, of apostasia contradicts his view. His position demands that apostasia mean physical departure from planet earth. However, this meaning cannot be squeezed out of apostasia in any context; much less th root level.

If: a.) The wrath of God starts at the beginning of the 70th week...
   And:  b.) Satan is controlling the world during the 70th week...
     Then: c.) God alone is not being exalted during his wrath.
        Thus: d.) God's wrath cannot coincide with Satan's control over the world.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

This isn't a rapture eddielee, it's not a catching up to Heaven, it's a gathering of His saints from heaven

So this event is not the same as Mark 13?

24"But in those days, following that distress,
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

The pretrib view is that Mark 13 and Matthew 24 are not describing the same gathering of the elect?
 

[17The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The LORD alone will be exalted in that day, 18But the idols He shall utterly abolish.]

 We pre-tribs believe we will be raptured before God's wrath. We believe tribulation is God's wrath in action. We also believe that many will be saved during the tribulation. So the verses you pasted such as Mat 24:22" the elect's sake" relates to them.

As far as the reference to Daniel's 70th week...I don't see the point you are trying to make. We believe satan will take control of earth for seven years. The first three and a half years by means of spiritual possession of a world leader who appears to be a great peace maker. The final three and a half years, satan takes over in physical form and claims to be God.
 

So, if the tribulation is the wrath of God, and Satan is controling the earth, and setting up the greatest abomination of all time, committing the greatest descration and act of idolatry ever, does that make Satan God's agent for his wrath?

This is kind of like the Preterist argument, that the Roman armies were the wrath of God falling down on Jerusalem.

Here is what Isaiah says:
Isaiah 2:
10Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
        From the terror of the LORD
        And the glory of His majesty.
        11The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
        The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
        And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

        12For the day of the LORD of hosts
        Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
        Upon everything lifted up--
        And it shall be brought low--
        13Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up,
        And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
        14Upon all the high mountains,
        And upon all the hills that are lifted up;
        15Upon every high tower,
        And upon every fortified wall;
        16Upon all the ships of Tarshish,
        And upon all the beautiful sloops.
        17The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
        And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
        The LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
        18But the idols He shall utterly abolish.

So then, how can the wrath of God be poured out by the devil? Is this the wrath of God? :
Revelation 6:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


So here, if this is God's wrath, being poured out by Satan, then God is killing his own children??

It doesn't make sense to define the tribulation period as "the wrath of God" which believers are spared from (1 Thes 4).

Maybe you should read it again, because after Jesus says "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days", He does not refer to " to how the elect will be taken up, gathered together to him in the sky" He actually describes His second coming. He actually says that He sends His angels to gather us from Heaven. We are already there - the rapture has already taken place.

Well, lets read it in Mark:
Mark 13:
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Is this a third rapture? The first one in 1 Thessalonians 4, the second one in Matthew 24 and now a third in Mark 13?

Really, it's obvious that it can't be read that way;

In my opinion there is only one event being described in these 3 passages.  

As to the day and hour being unknow, Jesus also tells us that we should know the season:
Mark 13:
26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.

and then alittle farther down he says this:

What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'

Now, if there are no signs before the rapture, what can we watch for? Like in this passage, Jesus tells us about the gathering, the rapture, and then tells us that we will know when it is near when we see these things happening.

To reconcile these teachings, that we don't know the day or the hour, but we are suppose to watch for the season, is a matter of perspective. Like, if someone were to have a schedule, and tell us only that they would be here in June, but didn't tell us the exact day. They told us only that the signs of the weather would tell us when they would be coming.

This dispensation of grace will end with the rapture of the body of Christ. It will be followed by the resumption of God's program and dealings with Israel, including the Lord's day of wrath and the kingdom reign of Christ on this earth. (I Thessalonians 4:13-5:10; II Thessalonians 2:1-17)

His Messenger

Hmm, did you read my post? It seems like your not reading all of Scripture and taking it into account.

[11 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.]

There we have it! Our "post-tribulation" brethren say that "the day of the Lord follows the tribulation." Paul, in I Thessalonians 5:1-3, makes it clear that the day of the Lord includes the tribulation. They have men in the closing, most terrible hours of the tribulation saying, "Peace and safety"! They have the Lord's speedy judgment of the ungodly described by "travail upon a woman with child"!

No, the Rapture of the Body of Christ to be with Him will not follow the tribulation; it will precede it.

I don't think this aligns with Scripture. People will be saying peace and safety because of the treaty with the AntiChrist (Dan 9). Reading Isaiah 2, the Day of the Lord has to happen after this, and it has to happen after the Abomination of Desolation is set up (Dan 9, Matthew 24, 2 Thes 2).

Isaiah 2:
10 Go into the rocks,
hide in the ground
from dread of the LORD
and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled
and the pride of men brought low;
the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
12 The LORD Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and the pride of men humbled;
the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.
19 Men will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from dread of the LORD
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day men will throw away
to the rodents and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from dread of the LORD
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

If it happens before the abomination of desolation is set up, then on the very Day of the Lord, the period of time when only God is to be exaulted and all the idols destroyed, we would have the setting up of the most detestable idol of all time:
2 Thessalonians 2:2-
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Paul couldn't make it any clearer, the Day of the Lord happens after the abomination is set up. Which happens at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week (Dan 9).

Looking at Isaiah 2 again:

Go into the rocks,
hide in the ground
...
Men will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from dread of the LORD
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.


This happens in Revelation 6:

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

The Day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the 6th seal; meaning that all of the other seals happen before it. And it works out with what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians, that the gathering of the elect and the Day of the Lord will not happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed; fitting perfectly with what Jesus said about the rapture:

Matthew 24:
"Immediately after the distress of those days
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
   the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

As we can see, the exact sign of the sun moon and stars happens in Revelation 6, at the 6th seal, and Jesus said immiadiately AFTER this we shall be gathered to him.

The trumpet is blown by God:

Zechariah 9:14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
as the flock of his people.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.

[trumpet call of God]

Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
Paul doesn't say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.

I disagree; I do not think the last trumpet spoken of by Paul is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Paul says the the trumpet is a trumpet of God:
1 Thes 4:16-For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God

Looking at Zechariah gives us a better description of what the trumpet call of God is:
Zechariah 9:
14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
as the flock of his people.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.

It seems like the trumpet of God could very well be a trumpet blown by God himself, not by an angel as in the 7th trump of Revelation.

If the last trumpet spoken of by Paul is the 7th trumpet of Revelation then saints must be on earth during the wrath of God, (the events of the first 6 trumps); unless God shields his people in someway from the first 6 trumpets this cannot happen, because the wrath of God will never touch his people:
1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, if the 7th trump is the last trump, then the saints will have to wait alot longer for the rapture then Jesus said they would, because he said it would come immidiately after the sun is darkened, the moon is red and the stars fall from the sky:
Matthew 24:29-
"Immediately after the distress of those days
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
   the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


In Revelation this event happens in chapter 6:
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Thus the rapture should happen very soon after this event. While the 7th trumpet is months down the road, following the massive events of the first 6, Jesus didn't say anything about going through those events, only to wait for him to appear after the events of the 6th seal.

If this interpretation of what Jesus said is correct, and aligned with Revelation's chronology, the saints should be raptured in chapter 6 or 7, right after the sun is darkened, for the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy; as we see in chapter six, the wrath of God is beginning:

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


So is there any evidence for a rapture in Revelation after this event? After the sun is darkened and before the 1st trumpet sounds bringing the wrath of God...

Revelation 7:
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So there is some evidence for the rapture here between chapters 6 and 7, much more evidence then for it happening in chapter 4 or in chapter 11 with the 7th trumpet. This is the simple logical conclusion. (the prewrath view.)

That's why Jesus says He will send His angels to gather His elect from where ever they are...notice He says they will come from earth and Heaven Why would Jesus tell His angels to look in Heaven if there was no one there?

The word for heaven in that passage is Ouranos, which is defined as:
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
    a. the universe, the world
    b. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
    c. the sidereal or starry heavens
2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

Therefore this gathering from the heavens could mean gathering saints already in heaven with God, and it could mean gathering the saints who have died and gone to Paradise (Luke 16), waiting for the return of the Lord. This verse is not a proof for people having already been raptured to heaven, nor is it by itself a proof for people being raised only from death.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

So Heaven is opened and Jesus is leading His armies [which were in Heaven] back to earth to do battle with satan and his armies.

How do we know they are human armies? They are described as being "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" As you know, angels do not receive the gift of salvation. The angels who rebeled are going to Hell, so those clothed in fine linen, white and clean are humans who have been washed clean by the blood of Jesus. This verse clearly proves that a huge multitude of humans depart with Jesus through an opened door from Heaven back to earth to do battle with the forces of evil.

Angels who havn't fallen, havn't sinned, I don't find sufficient justification about their apperral not being white robes. And Scripture says that Jesus' army has angels in it:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

--------------------------------------

The division about the second coming and the rapture is based on saying that these two verses are not the same event:

Matthew 24:30-31
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


What are the aspects of each event? Matthew 24:
 a.) Jesus is coming, in the sky
 b.) There is a trumpet call and angels gather the elect

What are the aspects of 1 Thessalonians 4?
 a.) Jesus is coming down from heaven
 b.) There is a trumpet call
 c.) The people are meeting the Lord in the air

These events seem to have many of the same descriptors applied to both of them, it does not make sense to make them 2 separate events happening at different times to different people; it only makes sense if both passages are describing the same event.

 

"A door was opened in Heaven" Clearly, there is either something going to, or coming out from Heaven. Otherwise, why is the door opened?  Did God want John to write this down for his (John's) own benefit?  why would God want John to write about the opened door? Surely John would know the door was opened if he went through it right? There's obviously some greater significance here.

John is describing what happened to him, a door opened in heaven and a voice told him to come up…

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  
 Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  
 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 Now doesn't that put a clear picture of some sort of judicial proceedings about to begin?

I don’t see any evidence for a judicial scene, for example, what would this look like without any sort of judicial pre-conception being placed upon the passage? Wouldn’t everything be described exactly the same if it had nothing to do with any judgmental event? If it wasn't a judicial scene, would God be lounging on a sofa instead of being seated on his throne? Of course not, the scene is how it would be regardless of whether it was a judicial scene or not.

However, I do believe there is very good evidence for a pre-trib rapture, and in the following verse there is solid proof that there are saints in Heaven who have been Raptured and they are wearing crowns on their heads

Lets look at the following verse:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

What evidence in this verse supports that these figures are: a.) Human and b.) raptured humans.

I don’t see any evidence that they are human or that they were previously on earth to be raptured. The saints are given white robes, yet does that preclude angels and elders from wearing white robes as well? The passage doesn't give any support that because they are in white robes they have to have been raptured saints.

If this point in time depicts the rapture having previously occurred, then it happens before Jesus said it would.
   
What is the evidence for this? Jesus said:
Mark 13:24-27:
But in those days, following that distress,
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

And this event, the sun and moon darkening, does not happen until Revelation 6:

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore the gathering of the elect cannot happen until after the 6th seal.

If we say there are two gatherings, two raptures, one before Revelation 4 and one after the 6th seal, then we would have to find evidence supporting more then one gathering; yet there is only one gathering in Jesus' timeline, he only speaks of gathering the elect once in the Olivet discourse; and his account and Paul's account of the gathering have the same descriptors, making the notion that they are two different gatherings illogical.

Rev4:1
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Sorry, nothing about rapture there.