Actually "fear", as it is translated in most versions I believe, is the most accurate rendering of the word.  Yes it means a reverent awe.  But it also means fear.  We baulk at this because of the verse Everyday Newborn posted.  How can we do both?  Or neither?

It's interesting that the man God brought up to Satan as the example of what a godly man should be, was Job.  And what was he known for?  He was blameless and upright, a man who feared God and turned from evil.  And it's there, I believe, that we come to understand what godly fear truly is.  

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

1 Jhn 4:18

Ungodly fear is fear that doesn't recognize the love of God, nor does it rest in that love.  Forgive me those of you who believe eternal security to be false, but this is what is being discussed.  If you fear judgment for your sin, if you fear losing that salvation, then you are not made perfect, or perfected, or completed in love.  Godly fear doesn't deal with judgment, not even so much discipline.  Godly fear deals with a true understanding of the God we serve, and what cost there is in disobeying that God.  It deals with understanding that in obedience, there are far greater blessings, than in disobedience.  It deals with the fear of displeasing, and disobeying a loving Father.

I heard it best relayed by a lady at my church who related this fear as such: "I was afraid of my dad!  I wouldn't disobey him because of that fear.  But I never doubted his love, or care for me.  I wanted to please him."  And so it is with our Heavenly Father.  We don't want discipline!  We fear it!  But we do not fear a judgment Christ already paid for.  We do not live in fear of failing an angry God.  We live fearful of disobeying a loving Father.

Just a thought...

Thank you for your thoughts Allinall.  There may be some people that do live their life out of fear of losing their salvation, and I'm sure that's not what God intended.  I do believe we can lose our salvation, but the only fear I have is fear of not pleasing my Lord and Saviour.  The thought of disappointing him scares me, not the thought of losing my salvation as you say I do.  I do not fear losing it because I know where my heart is therefore he has my love and I have his, and everyday I live in that love.  Contrary to what you stated, I think I am more complete in my joy because I do see consequences if we turn away, and in that I hold a deeper respect and awe of him, not the other way around.
I do not approach the throne of God with fear that he's going to zap me with lightning and send me to hell for my sin, but rather a healthy respect for his holiness and righteousness.  Again, the only fear I have is my displeasing him because I love him so, even though I know you'll disagree.

God bless

LeeH,

JudgeNot was correct, there are two meanings of fear used in the bible, one meaning scared or frightened, another meaning respect or reverence.  Here are examples of both:

Scared or Frightened - "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 Jhn 4:18

Respect or Reverence - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
    all who follow his precepts have good understanding."  Ps 111:10

I hope that clarifys the difference.  One is healthy and the other is not in reference to our God.  

LeeH,

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.  You're having trouble with the name Jesus Christ correct?  If so, please allow me to clarify.  That isn't his name actually, it's just Jesus.  Christ means "Messiah" or "Anointed", so really when they are put together as Jesus Christ, it's basically saying Jesus "The Messiah" or Jesus "The Anointed".  Many times he is referred to as 'the Christ', so you see it is not his name, but rather a reference to his deity.

And it was Jesus himself who said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.  If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:6

The thing to catch there (as to this discussion), is that he states he is the truth, so if you accept that, then that means everything he said and did was and is the truth.  So if you accept Jesus and want to search for the truth, you'll find it in him who was with the Father from the beginning.

I hope I've helped and understood correctly what you were having trouble with.  Take care.

God bless

The answer to the question is, none of us know!
Only GOD knows the heart. We can't argue issues of the heart. We only know what we see! We look for Fruit of the Spirit and other things the Word says is consistant with christian behavior, but only GOD truly knows.

The only persons salvation we can be sure of is our own.

This discussion does come down to issues of the heart." If we confess with our mouth and believe in our Heart then...". But which one can truly say? All we know is what it told to us and what we see. Also remember bevavior is learned and can be imitated. So what do we really know?

We can't determination a persons salvation soley on what we see, bacause thier salvation is determined by what GOD sees.
And what GOD sees is us covered in the blood of the Lamb!

AMEN!!!!
Which is exactly the point I have been making in all of my posts, that it comes down to the attitude of the heart.  But the problem I have with the once saved always saved is people say that the attitude of the heart can't change, which I don't agree with.  The ONLY way a person could lose their salvation is if they change the attitude of their heart and become hardened towards God.  I say that about people who know what they're doing.  And to say one who turns away was never saved, I ask how did they know that person's heart?  How do they know that they never were sincere or truly wanted to devote their lives to God.  Unforseen things happen that could change a person's mind.  As well as on the flip side, how do we know someone who's following God truly is sincere, so it does work both ways.  And I agree the only person we could know for sure is ourselves.

All that are CHRIST'S are in his hand, of which he has lost NONE!

Yes, and those that follow him shall have eternal life. Amen........

God bless

[it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved]

The law cannot kill the soul, because if a child of God sins, he is no longer judged by that Law, children of God are not under the Law of Commandments, but under the Law of Grace.

You simply need to study this, to understand it.

Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness.  So if you're not saying no, are you under Grace?  Study and understand that my friend.

Thats right, it is not Faith plus my works that will get me saved; it is Faith alone that saved me, and that Faith is in Christ Jesus..and His finished Works at the Cross of Calvary.

Faith initially yes.  But I'm talking about throughout your life.  What happened to the servant who buried his talent?

On the other hand, faith plus keeping the law perfectly only insults Gods Grace, since all who claim one must obey the commandments perfectly not only can boast they have, but then can also demand slavtion, because of what they have done.

First of all IF one could keep the law perfectly yes it would make God's grace unnecessary.  However being that the case is one could NEVER keep the law perfectly, there will always be a need for God's grace.  But that doesn't mean we should be lazy in trying to keep the law, because the law not only shows us that we are sinners, but what kind of life God want's us to live.  I do not try to keep the law so that I may not need God's grace or boast, I try to keep the law (Jesus' commands) so that I may live the life that is pleasing to him.  As Paul says, we must aim for perfection.

The very fact that you believe one sin that you commit, does not unsave you is proof, you don't even believe the doctrine you desire to teach and impose on others, yourself.

You misunderstand what I have said.  

How many sins does it take to kill the soul, .................anyhow??

Let me give you an illustration, and it will demonstrate the power of both sin and God's grace.
Say there were 100 commands.  You keep 99 of them, but the one you decide you're going to continue in even though you know what Jesus said in the command.  
Take the same 100 commands.  You keep only 1, the other 99 you continue to do.  But you do so because you are weak in your flesh, you know they are wrong and you try as best as you can to not do these things and ask God to deliver you from them.
Which of these persons would be saved?  I tell you the latter, because their heart was willing though his flesh was weak.

You just don't want people to be saved, because you believe Gods Word..................well,??

I wish everyone could be saved, unfortunately that's not going to happen.

I  guess you must think you are god them............huh??

Honestly I don't know where you come up with this stuff, you obviously conjured up these lies in your own mind and there is nothing I could do or say to change your mind.  But I'll say it anyhow, God is God, I am not.

Friend, You do greatly error, since you are insulted and offended, that God has ordained people will be saved by Faith alone, in His Word alone, and by imposing your own ideas, theories and speculations on what the Word of God says, you reveal what you really believe.

I believe only what God says, and I take the bible as whole not in sections.

Rather than going thru this excersice of debating, this; why didn't you just admit;

You think you know better than God.  Come on be honest..............

Again, this is another of your false assumptions of which continue to show me your true colors.

You really do not believe Peter, and it matters little whether you do or don't,  however, you really should believe Jesus, when it comes to this question, what He says about it, is what matters.  Seeing He is God..

I believe both of them, in all their scriptures.

Paul said it best;

Rom 7
18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This explains our delima, and this is what I rest on, not in my own abilities to keep laws of commandments, but in Gods Grace.

Amen to having God's grace to cover us when we stumble, but we need to make the effort and have the willingness to keep God's commands, he does the rest.

But please don't misquote me, Christians should make everyeffort in their power to keep Jesus's Commandments, by this we can show the world we are children of God.  It is our testiminy, doing good works and not keeping the commandments, will never convince anyone we are Gods children.

A big AMEN to that!  

Stay with it, that same Spirit can and will lead you in the way of Truth....concerning this matter.

It is more and more each day.


God bless

[JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD AND]

You need to read Rom, 6, 7,8, this might shed some light on this matter for you.

I have which is why I asked the questions I did, because it's not okay to sin.

You said, you were not talking about sinning and losing your salvation!............which is it??

Are you, or are you not speaking of,  a  Christian being able to lose slavation by sinning??

You are contradicting yourself.

It seems to me, you are not very honest, about what you are saying one moment and then cliaming what falling out of fellowship means,  the next................which is it??

What are you really talking about??   You sound confused..........................?

I was making a point by using what Allinall said, there was no contradiction.  
He was saying the only consequence of sin is falling out of fellowship with God, not losing salvation.  I asked how a person could not have fellowship with God yet still be saved?  It is clear that the scriptures teach that when you are doing God's will and living a life that is pleasing to him, a result of that is you have fellowship, and Jesus' blood covers you.  They are all as one, not seperate. Take for example 1 Jhn 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
Again it says "if" we walk.......So on the flip side of that I continue to keep all three, should you choose not to walk in the light, then you won't have fellowship, and the blood of Jesus will not cover you, but you say it still would.

The unsaved will definitely perish if they do not come to Christ by faith in Gods Word, which He has spoken, JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD AND is that Prophet of Deut 18:15-19.

Those who are saved, ..........I give unto them eternal life; and they shall will never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.  (Jhn 10:28-30)

Can you say that you,  believe Jesus own Words at John 10:28-30??

Clearly in furthering the doctrine you embrace, you don't..believe Him.

If you say you do, How so?

I do believe him, cause in vs. 27 he is speaking about those that follow him.

You do not understand this verse this is why you ask such a question...if you underdstood the verser, you woul;dn't ask it...  because of sin there can be no fellowship, however God does not disown his adopted children, because they have sinned.  

For those that do not they have eternal life in Christ Jesus, the practice of disobedience as a matter of course, could very well be evidence they are unbelievers, and never really were saved, it is called self deception,  It is not enough, to believe I know God, the question one should ask Himself, does Jesus Know me.

2 Tim 2
19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I can accept a statement to this degree:
If a person comes to know Christ but still continues to hold on to sin knowing what Christ says about sin, then yes I'd question whether that person really was saved to begin with because of their knowledge of it.  In this situation, I'd agree with your statement.  However, there is other possible situations such as a person not knowing what Christ says about something, though they believe in God and accept him.  Then something happens and then that person decides not to follow Jesus, to say that the person never believed, was not sincere in their desire to follow Christ, was never saved (because they didn't fully understand) I don't agree with.

Praise God, I trust in Jesus own blood who covers all of my sins, and not in my own abilities to keep the commandments perfectly, which I never could before I was saved, not to mention I had no interest in them to begin with. The word of God assures me, I was  made perfect in Jesus even  while dead in sin and tresspass, even the Faith I possess was given to me, by Gods Grace.

I suppose you would claim, you conjured up your saving faith??

If by saving faith you mean having the faith to believe in him and accept him, yes that was my faith because it was my choice to choose him or not.  Did he give you the faith to believe in him?  If so then there is no free will.

Are you saying a believer can't commit a deliberate sin?

I am saying the scriptures make it plain to me, that:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jhn 3:9-11.)

I suppose you would take issue with verse 9.........

No I wouldn't actually.  The difference between you and I is the free will involved.

Amazingly, you believe I hate you because I point the error you perpetuate by not only believing this great deception, but wanting to teach it.

I never said I believed you hated me, again that is another incorrect assumption on your part.  Honestly Petro, this has been a pattern for you to do and it really needs to stop.

I ask you, who is he that loves the brethern, one would teach them, doctrines which are man made, begun by the Father of lies, or one who would contends for the faith, pointing out error of heresy, even the doctrine of eternal Faith, denying the blood of Christ that bought them.

The fact is Christians should hate all lies, and should not perptuate lies from the father of lies, your doctrine is a lie.

Said the kettle to the pot.

I never said that, did I??

The OT, has been abolished, I guess I assumed you knew this, that will teach me, to assume things, when pointing out things like this..

The reason why the OT has been abolished, is because Jesus the Testator of the New Testament has died, it is a fulfillment of the OT prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

One can learn certain principles which are still relevant from the OT, buit we are not under the OT, for instance at the passage you quote, the sons shall not perish for the sins of their fathers but will perish for their own sins.

Ezekiel 33 that I quoted was a principle which is still relevent from the OT, which you stated one can still learn.
 

The 10 Commandments still serve their same purpose.

These Commandments, were never given, that by keeping them perfectly any flesh could ever be justified before God, they were simply given to be used to determine whether anyone had sinned against God, this is the only reason for the Law of Commandments, they are as a schoolmaster to bring man to Christ by FAITH, and when FAITH comes, that man (who comes to FAITH) is no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24)

cont'd..................

Yes there is joy my friend!  But the unspeakable joy is found in understanding the unmerited depth of that love.  

And that I grasp more and more each day, though you don't think I do which is okay.

Can be.  That is why Paul warns us not to.  I know many who hold to the Calvinistic predestination as their personal license to sin!  But that's not me.  You and I live obedient (as best we can) lives following Christ, with a desire to know Him more and more each day.  You live with a belief that if your heart goes astray, that you can lose what He has given you, but won't so long as you keep your heart for God.  

I live with the belief that if my heart goes astray, like the Great Shepherd He is, He will find me, and if need be, break me, hold me, teach me, love me, nuture me, and free me from the sinful mind that lead me to stray in the first place, by renewing my mind with His word.  If I live knowing He's my Shepherd...why would I willingly live in sin because I have fire insurance?  I wouldn't.  Rather, I live with a desire to hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant" from He Who bought me with His life's blood, paying for my sin and offering that payment to me, an undeserving sinner.  When my works are tried with fire, I want His to remain.  I want there to be His works to remain.  And I know, as sure as I know Whom I have believed, that when I stand in tears for the lack of what I could have accomplished in life had I died to myselfish desires, that it will be He Who wipes those tears away.  Not because I'm crying for a hard life here, but because of the failures that I've had here.  That's my God.  That's the God the bible teaches us about throughout.  That's the God that in the passages interpreted as being judgmental for sins already paid for, is misunderstood.  And yes, that's the God Who inspite of such misunderstandings and many, many others that we all have, loves us, nurtures us, holds us, breaks and builds us as we obey Him.  That, is what I know of my God.  That's the relationship I have with my God.  

Amen to this brother.  But I must say, we must be willing in order for that to happen, he won't force us.

Yup.  There are.  So either Jesus taught opposite of the Law, and the remainder of the New Testament, or the Law and the New Testament taught differently from Jesus.  Sound confusing?  It should!  Because the bible doesn't teach this doctrine.  We come to these passages and misunderstand them because we do not understand what Jesus did on the cross.  Yup!  This is milk!  "Jesus died on the cross for my sins" doesn't get any milkier!  It's the message of God's love and grace that a lost and dying sinner can understand by it's simplicity.  But that death was by no means simple.  It's the depth of that death, burial and resurrection that teaches us the finality and security that that salvation provides.  As for the passages my friend, I do know them.  I also know that Jesus isn't teaching what you think He is.

Would you like me to show you those depths?  Otherwise, we'll move on to more edifying things...like what that love prompts us to do.

If there is a place in heaven where there is darkness, with weeping and knashing of teeth, please provide such passages.  NOWHERE in the bible does it describe such a place.  And a servant can be thrown into it with reason stated.  Thus the doctrine is complete.  But I will wait for you to find me those scriptures that speak of this place in heaven that is in darkness with weeping and knashing of teeth........

I'd question the heart thing brother, but we've beat this dead horse a few times too many.    And yes.  There's always more to discuss...just perhaps elsewhere.

Yes we have, and it is clear that we don't agree with each other.  That's fine.  May God bless you on this journey through life, and guide your footsteps.

God bless.

Nope!  There isn't!  There's also no verbatim statement that this is in reference to losing salvation.  There is inference.  And that doesn't match up with the remainder of scripture.

It matches pefectly with the correct interpretation, of which you do not have my friend.

Yes!  But the point is that it is the works that are burned.  Not the worker.  If the worker works to himself, and doesn't obey God, his works will burn..."though he himself will be saved."  I know I keep pushing that last part, but that last part keeps getting pushed away.  

In our life we will do works that are of ourselves, and those that are for the glory of God.  Those done for the glory of God will receive rewards.  Those we do of ourselves will be burned away but we will be saved.

Seeeeee?  Speaking the truth in love!  I'm speaking truth lovingly and you're responding falsely...BUT IN LOVE!!!  *L* Sorry.  Had to say it!  

As I feel the same way about you.

Gotta ask this: and where does it say that it is Hell?  Verbatim.  Because, my friend, if it doesn't, it's interpretation.  And that interpretation...get ready, cause here comes another repeated statement I like... ...doesn't agree with the remainder of the scriptures.

You're joking right?  There are numerous passages spoken by Jesus himself, where he's talking about the kingdom of heaven, and then those who will be thrown out into darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth.  Besides, Jesus will be our light, so if we're in darkness, is that heaven?  Will there be weeping and knashing of teeth in heaven?  Come on, this is milk!  If you would like me to list the scriptures, I will do so for you.  Let me know brother.

God bless

BTW, before I forget...yup!  I did mean Philippians 2:12!  Thanks for catching my faulty old memory!  

Not a problem.

The problem here my friend, is that you believe there to be a need for a judgment, rather than a consequence for your sin now.  And guess what?  There was a judgment.  Jesus took it all upon Himself.  You would agree.  But you do not believe that to be a sufficient act, as you must do your part to maintain what He perfected.  Is it ok to sin?  Listen to Paul's very answer to that very question in two different passages:

"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.

1 Corinthians 6:12

All things.  Not some things.  Not all things but those things denounced in the Law.  All.  Everything.  So, we can then sin to our hearts content right?

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:1-2

We do not live in sinful practice as we've been freed from sin's penalty of death by Jesus sufficient sacrifice.  We are being freed from sin's power through our obedient response to the working of the Holy Spirit, via the word of God in our lives.

Jesus' act on the cross was and is sufficient.  What I believe the scriptures to teach is that there are circumstances that can evolve that is resulting in the lose of one's salvation.

My friend, truly, this doesn't hurt me that you don't believe this doctrine.  I mean really!  You are striving to maintain that which was bought and paid for in full, for all time, for you... by doing what?  Obeying God and growing closer to Him.  And how exactly is that bad?  

I'm striving to do what he commanded us to do to the best of my ability, which is all he asks.

The part that saddens me is that you, and those like you, live in fear.  You may argue that, but it's true.

I don't live in fear when it comes to salvation, because in this discussion I have not had much opportunity to talk about God's grace and mercy.  I've mentioned it a few times in past posts, but I will mention it again here and it goes back to the distinction I was making.  I am a believer and yet will stumble here and there, but my hearts desire is to do what God commanded and strive for perfection.  Knowing that I'm not perfect, I don't live in fear of losing my salvation when I stumble, because God's grace and mercy run deep for those whose hearts remain with him.  Any fear I have is his discipline for when I do stumble, because I know his discipline won't be fun, but it's out of love.

You must "work out your own salvation" with fear and trembling as you believe you may lose God's gift, when the working spoken of there isn't for security, but sanctification.  It's yours.  Work it dog!  Ok.  That's my paraphrase, but you see my point.    So why then the fear and trembling?  "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."  If we neglect so great a salvation, we neglect the blessed sanctification granted us in the here and now.

Again, being perfected and sanctified is a process, not completed here and now.

And any "talent" we've been given, we lose..."though (we ourselves) are saved."

You are combining two different scriptures that are not talking about the same thing.  One is a 'servant' who is thrown into utter darkness where there will be wheeping and knashing of teeth.  The other is our works and the rewards that will be given.

What's more, you live oblivious to the reality of a "joy unspeakable and full of glory."  It's hard to have joy in what can be forsaken and lost.  It's hard to have joy when you spend you time fearing the potential failure you may succumb to.

Again, as of my answer above, there is no fear of failure when I have a willing spirit even though I know I won't be perfect.  My joy is in knowing his grace and mercy covers me all the days of my life, as I strive for perfection and obey his commands to the best of my ability and remain in his love.  Anyone who understands this will see that there is no need for fear, and there is much joy in being in the Father's love.
But what saddens me about the doctrine of once saved always saved, is that it can be taken as there are no consequences for sins, thus lead people to continue their way and not have to feel like they have to be obedient.  What fruit would they bare?  What kind of witness would they be?  What kind of relationship would they have with God?

Again, as I stated way back in one of my first posts on this thread, is I do believe in eternal security for those whose hearts remain with God.  We've discussed this, and we know where each other stands.  Is there much more to discuss?
 
God bless.

[will be saved]

Cast out into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Definitely Hell.  Absolutely.  Unless...

With this verse, there is no 'unless'.

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

...it isn't Hellfire he suffers.  But the burning of his worthless, selfish fruits here, "though he himself will be saved."
Where's the explanation of this one?  

Doesn't this mean works that were done of ourselves, verses those done for the glory of God and the rewards that will be given for both?  Those that were done of ourselves will mean nothing and will be burned up and no rewards will be given for those.  The works that were done for the glory of God will be rewarded.

I hope I don't sound upset or argumentative.  I'm not, and I am discussing this with good natured love my friends.

I didn't think so at all, and because you don't get upset it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss this with you.

Saved he is!!

I disagree, because the "outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.", is Hell.  And this was a 'servant', believers are servants of Christ so this is talking about a believer who did nothing that his Master commanded, thus he was thrown into darkness.

I think it may be time to rethink some of this.  

I agree.

God bless

I believe the Bible is the true Word of God. Both the Old and the New testament (I know there are groups that say only one of the two really matters). I have nothing to add to the scriptures quoted. As for that United Methodist: many people refuse to accept the Bible as the Word of God, because it works like a mirror. It demands some action and people rather want to walk their own ways instead of God's. There are words not translated well, but those are few. There are two kinds of Bibles: one that translates the Bible word by word from the original texts and one that translates thought by thought. I use both if I want to understand a verse.

Just some thoughts.

Mirjam

Amen Jippia, both the OT and the NT are the Word of God. It does demand action and they don't want to follow through with the responsibilities Christians have as believers.  Walking their own way is much easier.

As for scriptures go there is this one also:
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Tim 3:16

It's easy to quote verses, but it's by our faith that we believe it to be true.  

God bless

["...we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?"]

...STILL GOING...

Done?  Good!  Now you see my point!  Ok, maybe not, but here's the gist: we lose our chance of reward - not our salvation.  We run the great risk of standing before He Who gave His very life for us, having accepted that gift, having that gift as the foundation of our lives, and having built squat upon it.  We run the risk of offering back to Him wood, hay and straw, rather than the precious truths that He died to teach us.  In the end, it boils down to us choosing self over Him.  And we would stand before Him, with nothing to cast at His feet.  We possess only the blessed blood that saved us.  We are the servant that took the talent and buried it.  We've gained nothing.  But, "...he himself will be saved."

See answer from AJ  

And this is the point man!  We lose fellowship - not relationship.  Why then did God sacrifice His Son for us?  That question reminds me alot of "...we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?" Why, oh why would we neglect so great a salvation?  Not lose it, not give it up.  Rather neglect it by counting that fellowship as meaningless.

So the consequence of sin is broken fellowship only and not a broken relationship?  Again it brings me back to the question of is it okay to sin then because all we'll lose is fellowship and not relationship?

I would contend brother that God made everything, us included, for His glory:

everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 43:7

...and...

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 4:11

What was the glory and pleasure?

Our salvation, our conformation, our very lives are for His glory.  

Agreed, and Amen.  But see question above.

Nope!  It will be filled with people who do.  Here's a question you haven't considered for your position.  How do we know we love God?

You said you know I've addressed this, but I will answer this again.
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands."  1 Jhn 2:3
"But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 Jhn 2:5-6
"Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."  1 Jhn 3:24
"This is love for God: to obey his commands."  1 Jhn 5:3
"If you love me, you will obey what I command." Jhn 14:15
"Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching." Jhn 14:23
"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."  Jhn 14:24

If you love God in your heart, you will desire to do what he commands.  Notice there is a theme with those scriptures which is 'know', 'love', and 'obey'.

And everytime we fail to obey, do we then fall away and lose our salvation because we don't love Him?  Where's the line?  I do know that you've addressed this, I'm just asking where the line of stubbling becomes a falling in your eyes.

It is not my eyes, and I am not the judge of man.  God judges the heart, and he will decide when that line is because he is God, not me.  All I know is that the scriptures teach that it is possible to lose your salvation that we must continue to work out, and it is also possible to know that we're in his love and doing his will from the few scriptures above.

Not talking reconciling brother.  That's a done deal.  I'm talking about being perfected and sanctified.  What does that mean?

But notice it says 'being' perfected and sanctified, meaning it's not complete.  It's a process of being made holy, resulting in eternal life.

Take care, and God bless.

AJ

Amen. Thank you for pointing that out.

[CERTAIN BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT]

Positionally, no difference whatsoever.  That, my friend, is scriptural.  Not only is it stated thusly in specific verses, but it is taught thusly throughout the bible.

Where does it say we don't have to be obedient, or do the Father's will?  Please provide those specific verses.

The very book we use to support the loss of salvation is the very book by which we can be CERTAIN BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT[/b] that what we have been given in Christ, cannot, will not be lost.  The book of which I speak is Hebrews.  The problem we face my friend and brother, is that we approach that book as New Testament Gentiles rather than Old Testament Jews!  Don't worry.  Not sayin' you gotta be circumsised and grow funny bangs to be saved!    I'm saying that the passages found therein were written to Jews, with a Jewish understanding, and deal not with salvation, but with victorious Christian living, as related in the Old Testament illustrations.  I challenge you to read the book of Hebrews with a mind opened to this concept.  

I will read it again  

Possessionally,
(is that a word?) it makes the world of difference.  Please reread my posts here to Bronzesnake for what I'm getting at.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.  

I have ran out of time, but I will try to answer the rest at a later time.

God bless.

[obeyed]

Heya Newborn!  I love questions man!  Unless they're from my 6 year old and consist mainly of "Why?"  

Hi Allinall, my little girl is only 1 so I'm not getting the 'why' questions yet.  Though she does say 'no' pretty good because she hears it a lot.

We do no such conformation brother!  The work is God's:

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 4:13

I think you meant Phl 2:12.  But just before that he states in vs 12.. "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"
But we need to be willing to let God work in us, so we take part in the conforming.

We do not need to conform ourselves to God's image.  That is God's work.  Yet God did not make us mere robots that He moves about.  Rather, He gave us a will, and sovereignly allows us to make choices - whether to obey Him or to disobey Him.  By obeying, we allow the Spirit of God, through the Word of God, to conform us into the image of the Son of God.

Amen!  I totally agree.  And as you stated, it's by us obeying that allows the conforming to happen.

If not...we are not conformed, we fight the working of sanctification in our daily lives, and we effectively "bushel our candle."  Why must we do beyond accepting Him?  Because He has commanded us to do so, and to be "doers of the word."  It is through our obedience that God changes us.

Amen again!

Why obey?  Because we love Him:

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,  even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:15-17

Amen, amen!

Why take up our cross?  Because we must die to ourselves in order for Him to live through us:

And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 9:23

...and...

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.  But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


Galatians 2:15-21

Not only for Him to live through us, but for us to be effectively conformed to that image.  

...CONTINUED

Amen!

Continued....