Laura, I'm aware of this line of thinking. To add a little to it, I think the "weaker" pull is affected on those who are well off in the world (ie born into a rich family or life relatively free from hardship). Whereas the "stronger" pull appears to affect people with a harder life.

This is clearly seen and understood. I know a lot of people from China that become extremely devout Christians when they come to the United States. This is due to the spiritual oppression they've endured under the iron hand of communism. This sharply contrast with the people I know here who take for granted the freedom of religion. I'm sure glad I was born here!  

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I hear you Jerimdon. I decided to take this idea off. It has little to do with scripture, its really confusing, and I barely understand it. I dont want to give you the wrong information or confuse myself and everyone else.  

What you say sounds logical and with the reasoning of our finite minds would make sense. But, I was born into affluence, I lacked nothing at that time. Yet the pull was so strong. And the pull remained, regardless of what I was going through. To resist was futile:) And even in others I knew in affluence, the pull was strong in many of them too and not so strong in others. But many of them chose to come also.

The way to make this scriptural is for a person to go read the biblical references on each side of this issue, because there are hundreds, at least.

Laura

Guys

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So, There are some books in the NT, such as James that encourage practicing the Law, .. and if you see the 1st verse of James youll see it is written to the 12 tribes.  the jewish christians.

I personally believe that the reason Paul went to jerusalem, was to convince the elders of the church of the gospel of grace.  but he never got that far.
nonetheless, from the book of hebrews we can see that Paul (who I believe wrote it) did reach those in the church of jerusalem via the book.  and we see from the later books of 1+2nd Peter and John and 1,2,and 3rd John that they later embraced grace.

Never saw James as advocating the law. The way I read it is that the works he spoke of did not earn salvation. We are saved by grace. Works demonstrate that we are saved by grace. If I person says they are saved, yet is not demonstrating the love of Christ by feeding the poor, etc, you have to wonder if they were really saved. It is not the works that save them, but if a person loves jesus, they will be demonstrating that love.

Like to paraphrase 'you say you believe...even the demons believe and shudder'

Believe, the word translated from greek includes 'adheres to, trusts in and relies on'(john 3:16). It is not just a 'head' belief. A total belief results in action, although the action/law is not what saves a person.

Don't see any contradiction...

Laura

We live in a fallen world and reside in fallen, decaying bodies. So we do have illnesses of various sorts. Some seem to have more illnesses than others but oh well, that is life. We also have free will and suffer badly, often as a result of our actions. Others on this planet also have free will, including those who are very mean and they hurt others. Lots of things can happen to us on this world, but God does not cause it. All things that happen to us result from a fallen world and the actions of ourselves or others.

If we make bad choices and get hurt, we can learn lessons and get emotional healing from Jesus and doing our part to deal with whatever issues we had which caused the hurt. If we get hurt by others, unless we are killed, we again have a choice on how we handle it. We can grow from it or be bitter. And in our suffering, we can touch others who are going through something similar.

Then spiritually, we have a choice. In Christ, we have the Holy Spirit to help us to endure all things. And no matter how bad things are, they are worse without Christ. Also,  I wanted to be a missionary and felt the call to go to foreign lands, but then my health failed (1996) and I was not healed after prayer, so I went back and said ' ok God, I know you have a plan for me to serve you, so maybe you have another plan than I thought. How can I serve you from this bed?' And yes this did happen in 1996, when I was mostly bedridden for six months. This happened again about 6 months ago, where i could not walk well for about three months and again mostly in bed.

 But, so far, in those times, I can write to others or on forums and only God knows what that writing does for them and I can talk to others on the phone. So in those times, it is a matter of doing whatever one call do for Christ. You never know, when you think you are doing the least, may be when you are doing the most, in terms of touching souls.

I have what is called relapsing/remitting MS, so I have those times, then remissions when I can go more places. This is just the hand that I got dealt. Lots of people my age (52) are running about all of the time and work full time jobs, but that was not the hand dealt to me. God did not do this to me. Paul said that he had learned to be content in whatever circumstances he found himself in. And when things looked bleak, well "I woke every morning to birdsong', my dogs cuddled up to me, I have My Bible, I have God and a lot of other nice things. Sometimes it just takes a little more effort to look at the good, kind of like making a gratitude list. LOL

If I love Christ, my purpose here is:

1)To strive to become as much like Him as I can as the Holy Spirit revealed sins or shortcomings I need to jettison.

2)To be His servant in whatever capacity I find myself in.

3) Within my ability or limitations, to seek Him to find out how I can help others and reach the lost.

'The harvest is plenty, the workers are few', but as long as I have a breath in me, I am still one of those workers. I have a friend who has so many illnesses, she is house bound and walking is difficult. At one time, she thought she had nothing to offer. She wanted to serve Christ and did not know how she was serving him. People called her and came to her house and to those she gave the unconditional love of Christ and they heard the gospel. How can a person give a greater gift than the unconditional love of Christ?

And, oh yeah, we are just passing through...

Laura

I was presented with this free will vs predestination as an early Christian. I read all of their verses supporting their views and even read a few theological books about it. As far as I could tell, both wer true,even if I could not then understand it.  

I really do not think that many understand predestination as it relates to free will. I did not really understand it then, just figured it was a type of 'godly' predestination, that was beyond my human comprehension.

This is what I currently think. All are called. The pull of the holy spirit on some is much stronger in some than others, so while all get the invitation, some are chosen, it is almost an irresestible pull. This would fit in with 'my view of predestination.

The free will would tend to lean me to believe that all are not only called, but called with equal force, so that it is entirely free will. But considering our depraved souls, few will come, unless the Holy spirit pulls them really hard.

Some come easier and the pull does not have to be as strong, but IMO, if you are of the chosen the pull is very much stronger, which brings up the question of 'why not both'?

In God's grace, all are called. So each does have a choice to come. If they are not of the chosen (those He has specifically chosen), but still come, God accepts them because they heard His voice. This would imply that both happen.

This is just throwing out another possibility which i can not prove by scripture. But I also think that this issue is pretty hard for a human being to totally understand anyway, which is why there are so many fights on it.

A for example- say I have a friend, a pretty good person  who thinks christianity sounds good, but they do not have what I call pull that is so strong that they cannot resist, like a compulsion. They go to church and they decide, 'why not', it sounds pretty good. They heard the call, even if it was not as strong as the call on others and they heeded that gentle call. In their case,The decision was free will.

Then take someone like me, no way was God going to let me get away. I was never allowed to get very far before I was sent 'messengers' in droves, like being spammed, and there was something put inside of me that life without Him was torture. The pull was so strong, it was a compulsion, God chose me and He was going to get me. And even when I tried to get away, I had this all powerful being dragging me back towards Him. To resist was futile.

So all got a call and one came of free will. The other person was chosen and had no choice, they were predestined.

Laura

Thanx, Tom, that was cool  

I have wrestled with 1 John because he says that if you say you are without sin, you are a liar - but on the other hand, he says that if you belong to God, you cannot sin.

i john is one of my favorite epistles. I always liked the simplicity of it. I do not know why this is hard.

We cannot be saved by doing the law. We have sewers for souls. Jesus 'imparts righteousness' to us. So, if we say we have never sinned or that sin is not in us, we are liars. But in Christ, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and if we keep doing the sins that God has convicted us of in a habitual matter, then we demonstrating that we are not of Christ. But that is an inside job, each person knows what the Holy spirit has convicted them of. This is not a license to judge others.

So we work to not sin (the ones we know about as they are revealed) but we will never be perfect nor is it even possible to get rid of our 'sinful nature', the soul core of sin.

That is how I see it. never really thought much about it.

Laura

 This topic deals with 'seemingly apparent' contraditions found in the Bible.
For example:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).  
#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13).   Both of these are valid Bible verses....and both are absolutely True !
Even though they seem to contradict each other, and both of these Bible statements are made by the same Bible writer, the Apostle Paul.

The human mind, unaided by the Holy Spirit....seems unable to make these seemingly contradictory Bible statements harmonize. The human mind will choose one Bible verse, and ignore the other....which is extremely dangerous !
WHY ?

Each epistle written by Paul was written to a particular church/culture and the issues he speaks of vary depending on the issues of that church. The first one you quoted do not seem to mean that, when it is not taken out of context. The spirit of his message in references to the law were in making a case for grace, imo. I really do not see contradictions in that one. Did not look at the other ones you quoted. I have not seen any contradictions in the Bible. Now I have seen people pick things and verses apart in attempt to create contradictions, but personally have not seen any in the Bible.

Laura

I am smiling  

I got banned from Christian Forums for presenting the Truth of God's Word and for presenting acurate historical and Scriptural facts to refute false theology and teachings.

Have fun . . .  

Shalom, Nana  

PS:  So have many others

No kidding!! And what kinds of things are people being kicked off for talking about?

Laura

I know that I am new here, but gosh you guys sure  argue a lot. And these long posts quotting scripture after scripture.

Are you reaching out to offer Christ as their Lord and savior or are you just trying to impress us with how many verses you know.

I can quote them too, but would rather lead someone to Christ.

Laura