Hi there!


Converting mormons is like handling slippery eels.  Statistic indicate that after the seed is successfully planted, the average time for a mormon to leave the church is seven years. 

The Journal of Discourse is online if you put it in a search engine.  Another book you might want to brouse is "Gospel Principles".  It can be found on the LDS official homepage.

The problems will begin to arise immediate.  You need to remember that the missionaries knocking on doors have been trained for two years in apologetics.  They have the pat-answer index to answer all questions. 

And the usual answer is "that isn't official doctrine of the CoJCoLDS"  The church may teach it, use it, and live by it... but it isn't "official doctrine"... just as ...the exaltation to godship.   

The Jesus Christ of mormonism does not have the same attributes as the Christ of Calvary, and I believe that is your best argument.   After all, misplaced faith will not save anyone.   And the faith that is placed in a wannabe Jesus rather than the real thing is the seed you want to plant.


Pray for the Holy Spirit to soften their hearts before your meeting.

~serapha~

Conflicting statements..... from both sides...

http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/99/11/settlement.htm






http://www.betar.co.uk/facts/settlements.php



And an itemized listing and map (from 2002)

http://www.peacenow.org/nia/pr/03192002.html

Okay, from what I am reading and seeing is that a large part of the settlements are the result of placing the beduins on "reservations" rather than their free-roaming previous lifesytle.   With the settlement of the beduins, Jewish citizens want equal re-establishment rights.  These settlements do not necesarily have running water or utilities other than a utility line leading into portable buildings, or even tents.  

Now, when I look at the map, and I read the article that I posted above, knowing that unemployment is in excess of 90 percent in Bethlehem, why would anyone move into the area?  It would not be for work or improvement, for there is no work there, and they are not "building" homes, but temporary housing.  

One article quoted that the land was deem unusable by the West Bank which would certainly be "untrue", for in Israel, any crop will grow if it has water.  

The settlements aren't about what the people or country needs, but a squabble over the right to squatter's rights.   If the people who are settled in the outposts were wanting to work and live, Israel has an established system of living/working in their kibbutzim, which apparently has been rejected by the people in these settlements.


I wouldn't view any of "this" as biblical... or fulfillment of prophecy.  


~serapha~

Israel Identifies 28 Outposts for Removal

AP news


The area in question, if I am not mistaken, is also known as Judea.

Just wondering what others think about this situation in light of the following...

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. (Isaiah 14:1)

"

Hi there!

No, the passage you are referencing pertains to the Jews, God's chosen people.


The outposts pertain to the Palestinians, who are not Jews, but muslims.  The entire West Bank and Gaza are areas where the Palestians want to establish THEIR nation, taking the area from the JEWISH nation.   (edited to add:  The outposts were established to "house" the Palestinians as refugees.  There are refugee camps throughout the Middle East to house displaced Palestinians, Jordan has 50,000+ such residents)


Those in the West Bank believe that they will eventually receive THEIR land from Israel.

I believe the passages you cite were fulfilled in  1947/1948 when Israel became a nation.


Related to your news item... in today's news, and a better clarification of the situation.


http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME


~serapha~

Hello Dale,

You stated,

The movie Tribulation gives a very misleading impression of what Christians believe about the end times.  It is based on the book Tribulation, part of the Left Behind series. The movie says that all Christians believe in a rapture, the sudden inexplicable disappearance of all Christians from the earth at some future time.  

It is important to note that the "Left Behind" series indicates that there will be a "second chance" for unbelievers, which simply isn't true according to Scriptures, and I do believe we should use Scripture as a basis and not a movie.

On the contrary, the Catholic Church teaches no such thing and neither does the Eastern Orthodox.  I grew up in a Baptist Church and I never heard of the rapture until Hal Lindsay popularized the idea.  Lindsay, in turn, never discussed the truth or falsity of a rapture, he simply assumed it to be true.

Fortunately, views on the end times are not of salvific value.  We can disagree on our views and still share a plan of salvation through Jesus Christ as the only way and truth.  


~serapha~

Hello DD,



The strongest arguments for a premillenial rapture comes from interpretations of the Book of Revelation written by the Apostle John.  The strongest evidence and support comes from Polycarp and Hierapolis who both studied with John.

A literal interpretation is the basis for the premillenial rapture.  Tertullian argues in his work "Against Praxeas" (Chapter 13) that "words ought to be taken and understood in the sense in which they are writen, especially when they are not expressed in allegories and parables, but in determinate and simple declarations."  A literal interpretation of the Word of God only clarifies that the believers will not endure the wrath of God, but will be "taken up" with the Lord before the tribulations and Great Tribulation.

Ephraim  writes a homily on "The End of the World" with the statement "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world?.... All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which ovrwhelms the world because of our sins." (Jeffrey Grant, Apocalyps, Frontier Research Publications, 1992, p85-96)

The doctrines concerning the Rapture were squelched by the Gnostics and the rule of the Roman Catholic Church as being heretic.  There were no Bibles available to the masses until the printing press made copies available to the public.  Trinity College of Dublin Ireland was a frontrunner in the studies of premillenialism, and there was recurring of premillenial thought after the reformation.  

Martin Luther writes, "I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared.  Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing and cheerful mind."  Just as the early church thought that the return of Christ was imminent, so did Luther.  A belief that the return of Christ was imminent is reflective of a "Rapture" return prior to the tribulations as Martin Luther was aware that the tribulations were not over when he wrote stating to look for the return of our Redeemer.  The early church questioned if the persecutions that they were enduring were of the tribulations, and Paul told them to look for the return of Christ at any time.  Paul obviously believed in a "rapturing" of the church and imminent return of Christ for his Bride.  

Paul identifies this in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, when Paul shos that the day of the Lord could not take place until there was a departure 1) from earth, or 2) of the saints.  In Verse 7 of the same chapter the lawless system could not be in effect until the restrainer is taken away.  The Holy Spirit will "move aside" on the earth with the rapture.  The Holy Spirit is the only restrainer holding back the evil of this world (satan).

Premillenialism and Rapture doctrine was again developed through the 18th and 19th centuries.  Reverend Morgan Edwards published a book, "Milleneum, Last Days Noveltus", in 1788 which described the tribulation.  He claimed to have preached the rapture from 1742 and was probably influenced by John Gill's teachings, which supported a premillennial "snatching away".

I hope this helps in your understanding.


~serapha~

Hello DD,

There are prophecies to be fullfilled ...before ...Christ can come to take His church home to heaven.

I do hope that when the Lord returns to claim His Bride and all of the believers are "snatched up"... that you don't express rebellion and say,

"Leave me behind!"

My studies have shown that there are too many differences identified in the Bible that are not reconcilable for there to be just one event.  

If you can reconcile these differences, you will make a believer out of me... else, I have to stay with the premillennial theology.

~serapha~




#1
Rapture:  Christ comes in the air  for His own. (1 Thes 4:16)
Second Coming:  Christ comes with His own to earth. (Rev 19:14)

#2
Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11)

#3
Rapture:  There will be a Rapture of all true believers.
Second Coming:  No one is "caught up"

#4
Rapture:  "The Lord is at hand" (Phil 4:5)
Second Coming:  "The Kingdom is at hand" (Matt 24:14)

#5
Rapture:  The expectation of the church is to be taken into the Lord's presence.
Second Coming:  The expectation of Israel is to be taken into the Kingdom.

#6
Rapture:  The Church is taken to heaven at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

#7
Rapture:  The Rapture is imminent, or, at any moment.
Second Coming:  It will be a "glorious appearing" after seven years tribulation.

#8
Rapture:  The Rapture is for believers only.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming affects all mankind.

#9
Rapture:  It is a time of joy and comfort.
Second Coming:  It is a time of mourning and judgement.

#10
Rapture:  The Rapture is before the Day of Wrath.
Second Coming:  It is immediately after the tribulation.

#11
Rapture:  There is no mention of satan.
Second Coming:  Satan will be bound a thousand years.

#12
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the Judgement Seat of Christ
Second Coming:  There is no time/place for judgement.

#13
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the marriage of the Lamb.
Second Coming:  The Bride descends with Christ.

#14
Rapture:  Christians are taken to the Father's house.
Second Coming:  Resurrected saints do not see the Father's house.

#15
Rapture:  After Rapture, tribulation comes.
Second Coming:  After the Coming, the thousand year reign of Christ begins.

#16
Rapture:  The translation is a program for the Church.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is a program for Israel and the world.

#17
Rapture:  The translation is a mystery.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is predicted in both testaments.

#18
Rapture:  Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming:  Creation is changed

#19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.
Second Coming:  The Gentiles are judged.

#20
Rapture:  Believers are judged.
Second Coming:  Gentiles and Israel are judged.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.
Second Coming:  Israel's covenants are fulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.
Second Coming:  Evil is judged.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ judges mankind.

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming

Hi there!



According to biblical teachings,  homosexual acts are an abomination to the Lord; therefore a sin.  If you die in your sins, then, your justified eternal state is the lake of fire with torment.


There is no second chance, after death, then the judgment.... not reincarnation.    

It is a choice, though, and you choose your eternal state with or without God.

Might I ask you, what are the evidences of reincarnation?  

~serapha~

Hi there!

When you question the context of the Bible, it is usually better just to take a look at the Hebrew or the Greek meaning of the word.

The Old Testament use of "commandment" has more than one definition...

"miswah", which is "commandment" and which is used 181 times....

but there is also

"hoq" which is "statutes"

and "torah" which is "law"

They both equate closely to "miswah"... meaning commandment.  

"peh" which is "mouth" which is used 400+ times and is translated "commandment"  37 times in the AV.

And when you go to the New Testament, there are four words in Greek

"diatagma  which is "that which is imposed by decree or law,"

"entole" which is "a charge or commandment"

"entalma" which is "a commission or commandment"

"epitage" which is "authority with commandment"



So... the context is important as to whether it is "law" pertaining to "charge", "authority", "religion", or just plain a commandment or utterance.

Whew...

then, here's another Greek word, "prostagma" meaning "order, commandment, injunction".


Is there no limit to the words for "command"....


Where to begin?


I think you meant Jeremiah 31:33, where the word law is translated, "torah".  

"Torah" can be translated as many different types of law...

1) prophetic teaching
2) Messianic
3) priestly instruction
4) legal
5) codes of law
6) Mosaic Law

Now, which one will be written on the heart of people....That's a tough question...

But the previous passage might put it into context...

32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Whew.  

Well, this "torah" is not the ceremonial law, but the natural law of the inward man, the invisible qualities of God cited in Romans 1 and 2.  

Code:

There are 635 + laws commanded in the OT, according to Jews.

There were 613 laws just as there are 613 strings in a Jewish prayer shawl (aka the  tallit)



Then the question moved to Exodus 20 (verses 4-6) where one would expect to find the word "torah", but the word is "mitsvah" a variation of "miswah" cited above.  


Okay,


Then we move on to the commandment given by Christ.... "to love the Lord God" first, and "to love your neighbor as yourself"..... teachings of the House of Hillel in Capernuam where Jesus lived after leaving Nazareth and Hasedic teachings.  

And in Mark 12, the word for commandment is...

"entole"

We have a "match"!!!!! "entole" is the Greek translation of "miswah" and which is related to the "moral and religious precepts" of the rendering of law.

Are you staying with me, petro?



anyway... on to the apostles...


The word in 1 corinthians 7:6 is "epitage" meaning a mandate or a command.  

so

1 Cor 7
6  But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

So, Paul speaks with permission, not by mandate from God.

and verse 27 has the same word usage as verse 6.  


so, ultimately, the question is...

My question is centered around the Authority of Gods Word, and whether Christians have the authority to use judgements given by Apsotles to supercede
Commandments Commanded by the Lord Himself??

It took a long time and a lot of research to get to this point, but the answer is:

Paul has not identified that he is posting over the commandments of God; however, he is giving his interpretatiaon of the people's inquires based upon his knowledge of the "miswah", "hoq", "torah","peh", "diatagma",  
"entole", "entalma", and "prostagma".


Paul was a very intelligent man, knowledgeable in both Greek and Hebrew, knowledgeble in both Jewish teachings and Roman law.   He knew what he was say, and he said what he meant to say.  

Paul is easily misunderstood when he is taken "literally" in English which has "unified" the word for commandment to cover all areas of "law".  


I am not asking if there are any questions.

 


~serapha~

I looked out of curiosity..... I am new, and  I wanted to know if this forum really supported publicly posting against other members.  



I guess I will have wait and see.


~serapha~

Hello Petro,

You are very hard to follow, I had to backtrack several responses to see what your question was.


You asked,

how, you get just the Jewish people out of the elect, any verses you can share that can show some biblical teaching on this thought.

Also

but where does it say this will befall only the Jews,?  

Let me clarify my comments on Matthew 24 and 25.  Jesus was talking TO the Jews about the Jews in the end time.  No where did I make the statement that THE CONTENTS OF MATTHEW 24 and 25 was ONLY for the Jews.  The tribulations are for anyone who is left on this earth, and Matthew 24 and 25 address the tribulation period.  

You made the assumption that leads to your question...... just as you made this assumption...

Obviously your read is that those who are given white robes at Rev 6 and 7, who come through the great tribulation, are only Jews.

First of all, when I want to know what I think, I will ask my heart or look in the Bible, but I won't ask Petro.

Second, don't ever put words in my mouth again.  

Third, this discussion is over as far as I am concerned.  I am not looking for a "debate" of what I believe.  I am not here to defend myself from your assumptions.

Thank you for the welcome to the forum.  I think I have learned the ropes.




~serapha~

Petro,


I follow premillennial theology and apparently you do not, and that is okay with me.  No souls will be lost over the disagreements concerning premillennialism or other end time theologies.

The Word is specific in saying that the church will be spared the wrath of God.  Additionally, Matthew 23:37-39 Jesus was talking to the Jewish people then, and Jesus states, "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"... the second advent.    Now, since I believe the Bible supports premillennialism, therefore the church is gone from the earth, and Matthew 24 and 25 related to the Jewish nation.


~serapha~

Yes, this is a study I did a long time ago. Much has been gleaned from some good authors on the subject.I have been in Christ for about 30 plus years. When I first came to the Lord in the early seventies, I believed in a "pretrib rapture", but as I studied the Word more deeply, I came to  believe in the "postrib" view.

So I did cut and paste, but from my own gathering  thru the years. If you would like to get into it on a one on one, just email me.

pilgrom2@rochester.rr.com.

In His Service,
Frank

Hello Frank!

That was an excellent presentation, and if I were using one word to describe it, it would not be "bull", but "truth".


The Bible is particularly clear that the church, the body of believers will be spared the wrath of God.  It isn't in just one passage but throughout the Old and New Testament.  

I must be one sick puppy, because it all made sense to me.  


I particulally like it when biblical passages fall right into place.



Ac 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Lu 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


But the second advent of Christ... that isn't on a cloud...

Re 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

~serapha~

Vote, and then explain.[/size]

Hi there!

Once you are redeemed, you might break the fellowship, but you can't break the relationship.




John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  


When you are born "of God" and as "sons of God"; if, for whatever reason you break your fellowship with God, it doesn't change the fact that God is still your spiritual parent, as you remain eternally "of God".


~serapha~

I'm a REAL newbie here - I hope this hasn't been discussed anywhere - I did a search that came up empty - if it has been discussed you could direct me to the thread...

OK - here goes...

I know that many Christian churches consider cremation an abomination.  I can't find specific Bible verses to back up that consideration.  I would REALLY welcome your thoughts and advice on the subject!

Thanks in advance.  

Hi there!

I'm a real newbie, too, so welcome!

The Bible doesn't make a specific statement against cremation, but it does imply certain thoughts that would discourage using cremation as a means of burial.   The body is the temple of the Lord, and even though, at death, it becomes a "dead" temple, it is still the place where where the Spirit of God lived.  We aren't to worship the temple, but to worship the God who lived there; however, traditionally cermation has been a pagan practice, and burial has remained a Christian and Judeaic preference to burial.  

The reasoning may relate to the the paganistic sacrificing to children, or it may be that it is considered a desecration to the body.  Certainly, God has the power to resurrect a cremated body at the resurrection as well as one perfectly preserved in burial.  This body is just the seed for a new, glorified body.  

For a scriptural reference, Amos 2:1 seems to make a statement against cremation, while 1 Corinthians 13:3 speaks of Paul presenting his body to be burned.  


~serapha~

Is this about "the eternal security of the saved person"? I've read on a different website, called "christiananswers.net" that when a person becomes saved, they are permanently saved and are never in danger of going to hell again.

But that doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a saved person is truly unable to turn around and end up in hell, then why would Satan and his demons waste their time on christians?

If this is truly the way it is, then there is no way that Satan could lure a Christian back into hell. If he can't influence a born-again believer to end up in hell, then he would simply spend all of his time trying to keep nonbelievers from becoming christians.

But Satan and his demons surely DO attack christians and try to get them to turn from God. So I believe that a christian has the potential to turn from God and end up in hell if they so choose to.

This really bothers me, because a christian who believes that they are eternally secure may go out and sin to their heart's desire and think that it will all be okay in the end. This confuses me.  

Hi there!

But that passage really isn't about eternal security, that passage is directed to the Jewish nation.  

But, to answer your question concerning why satan would continue to try and defeat Christians when he knows they are "secure" in Christ.  Satan continues his work against the spread of the gospel and any work for the kingdom of God.  A discussion on the Doctrine of Eternal Security may be a thread where you could learn much from bibilcal teachings. I suggest you open a new thread with that discussion theme.


~serapha~