Apologies to all for the lack of response. I've moved house and haven't had an internet connection until now.

I hope everyone who has posted in this topic is well.

I am still thinking about everything we've discussed. Sometimes I think so hard it feels like steam will come from my ears!

Love and Peace

Alice

I have spent the last few days really thinking about all that has been said here.

I don't know if I'm actually CAPABLE of doing what is required.

I would have to kid myself about so much stuff, that I would not feel honest. Am I the only one here that has experienced this?

Alice

I agree that men are fallible and make mistakes as well as draw incorrect conclusions about things.

I really dont have blind faith in scientists and what they think.

But I think that its important to draw the distinction between scientific ideas, hypotheses and theories, and scientific facts.

The theories are subject to being proved wrong or updated later (such as flat earth etc) but a scientific FACT such as the speed of light or boiling point of water can never be proved wrong. It is a solid measured fact that requires no faith to believe as anyone can measure these things for themselves and get the same results.

In the same way that it is foolish and a little arrogant for any scientist to claim that a particular theory or idea is certainly TRUE it is equally foolish and unreasonable for anyone to say that it requires faith to believe things which have been consistently measured or observed(such as the distance to the sun, the speed of light or the strength of gravity on  earth. The fact is that ten thousand different people could all measure these things and they would all get the same result(in fact they have).

Similarly, some things wil ALWAYS ALWAYS be true, such as the ratio between a circle's circumference and diameter or pythagoras's theorum. If these kinds of things were considered to be untrue, the word true would cease to have any meaning.

I certainly don't think that science has (or ever could) disproved God. Anyone who thinks that is a little ignorant I think.

But I can't seem to get away from the fact that things we know for sure about the universe are not always in agreement with what the Bible says. If the Bible requires me to believe that it is raining, and I look outside and there isn't a cloud in the sky, which belief is right, rainy or dry?

Love and Peace

Alice

Felix

I do understand that science makes no claims to absolute truth.
In fact that is why I admire the scientific approach. It is much better to say "I don't know, but I'm working on finding out" than to say "This is the answer" , if in fact you don't know.

As to the truth of scientific claims and theories, I think it's important to be exact about things.

For example, if a scientist talks about the atomic theory of matter, they are not describing something which is factually true. Rather they are describing an explanatory framework that describes and explains what they observe. I agree that it is an error to mistake this for absolute truth.

But if a scientist measures the temperature of a liquid for example and finds it to be 83.086 degrees C, then that is a statement of FACT. It is not just a scientific theory that light travels as 186,000 Miles per second. It is a measured fact. As certain as the fact that it is sunny where I am right now.

So according to my understanding, scientists gather FACTS about the world around us and then come up with explanations that fit with all the facts. Some of those explanations predict other facts will be found and if they are, then that lends weight to those explanations.

I studied philosophy at college and we did some formal logic on our course, but I'm a little rusty so forgive me if I'm not too clear! As I understand it, mathematical statements are true by DEFINITION. So for example the truth of the statement "One plus one equals two" can't be doubted because the statement is merely defining "2" as "1" "plus" "1". It would seem to me that the basic axioms of logic have to be beyond question as their truth is contained in their definitions.

So to come back to the issue of making sense of the Bible and religious faith:

People say to me, don't use your mind, use your heart. But this doesn't really help me. All conscious processes (thinking, loving, worshipping, doubting, having faith etc etc) rely on the mind. The heart is merely an organ to pump blood around the body(and keep the brain working).

Think about it. You can remove someone's arms and legs, internal organs (including the heart) and keep them alive with the aid of machines. As long as they have their brain, all the above actions (loving, thinking etc) are still possible.

A contradiction is still a contradiction whether one thinks about it or not and that is what I'm struggling with.

Incidentally, it would seem to me that most Christian beliefs are based on having thought about concepts reasonably and come to conclusions.

For example, the idea that if you allow Christ into your life and repent, then you will be forgiven and allowed into Heaven is a statement of logic. ie If you do X, then Y will happen. That is thinking about things just as much as any scientific or rational enquiry. If we are to abandon thinking in favour of just "feeling" then surely anything goes?

On that basis we would be free to "just believe" in all manner of crazy things and the decision to restrict those beliefs to what is in the Bible would bring us right back to having to think again.

So I guess that what I'm saying is that I really wish that someone could show me how to reconcille the Bible with what we really SEE around us. For example, we know for a FACT that many stars are billions of light years away from us. This is a measured fact NOT a theory. Therefore the fact that the light has managed to reach us after a journey of billions of years means that the universe must be at least that old, but the Bible suggests a much younger universe than that. There is a contradiction then between what we actually SEE around us and what the Bible says and it is issues such as this that stop me from being able to just believe.

It would be like me saying "Just believe" that the Earth is flat. You would not be CAPABLE of doing that. It isn't even a choice that would be available to you.

Sorry to have ranted on, but I just can't stop thinking about all this.


Love and peace

Alice

I am really trying to understand a defferent way to look at all of this but I am finding it very hard. I replied privately to some of Felix's comments but I didn't want to upset anyone here by posting my thoughts on the forum. I just can't seem to make it all add up.

I am GENUINELY touched by the love and compassion that I've seen here.
Even though some people have been less than welcoming, in the main, the response to my posts and the dialogue I've had with many people has been very rewarding and engaging.

I'm still turning all this stuff around in my head, trying to find a way to put it all together that makes sense to me.

2nd Timothy, thank you SO much for your kindness and generosity of spirit. If there is a God, I'm sure that He would be proud of the way you give of yourself to others, and the manner in which you do it.

Love


Alice

I wanted to read back over some of the messages people have posted in the "Atheist Discussion" topic (last updated yesterday) but it has disappeared. Has it been moved to another section of the site?


Alice

Interesting views expressed here.

Very entertaining.


Love and Peace
Alice

To all those who remember me I wanted to give you an update on my "progress".

After a great deal of soul searching, reading, praying and thinking I have come to the conclusion that there are simply too many problems with the Christian world view for me to continue to hold it. Too many contradictions, assumptions and logical gaps. All the christians that Ive spoken to have told me I must simply believe and dont worry about evidence or being rational. Some more moderate friends have tried to defend the faith but their explanations always crumble under scrutiny.

So I have decided to try living without religion and see how that is.
So far it seems ok. I do still go to church sometimes with my family but dont "feel" it like I used to.

Many folk on this board were very sweet and kind to me during what was a very difficult and stressful time as I wrestled with my beliefs and thoughts, and to them once again I say thanks.
But I wanted also to reassure them that I am no longer in turmoil. I feel a great weight off my shoulders and the freedom to think for my self and come to my own conclusions about the world has been like fresh air.

I wish you all peace and love.

Alice

Well I'm here because many on this board gave me generous time, love and assistance when I really needed it.

I am going through a paradigm shift at the moment, but some here are still willing to exchange ideas with me. That is reason enough for me to continue this discussion.

x
Alice

Symphony,

Please could you clarify your question?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

I suppose that by some standards I would be a sinner, but by others, maybe not(?)

If there is no God and the Bible is not true, is anyone a sinner?

Symphony,

I dont expect to get all the answers. I know that if all the answers were out there, no one would disagree about this stuff.

I'm looking to see which way of interpreting the world makes the most sense.

I used to think that it was the Bible, but at the moment, I'm unsure.

Alice

Thanks again for your replies.

I am continuing to read and study.
Judgenot, i will look into the books you named and will follow up on the gold watch idea too.

I'll keep you posted.

Alice
x

Those of you who read my "confused" thread back in December will know that I was having a severe crisis about what to believe.

I think that for the moment I have resolved my crisis and although my findings are a bit upsetting and not perhaps what you would all wish for me, I wanted to post a big thank you to all who made an effort to help me.

In particular, thanks to Tibby, Ebia, 2ndTimothy and Tom.

I believe that you are all kind, good, people and that your hearts are very much,"in the right place". I have had my eyes opened to certain "truths" in the last month and I am forced to reconsider the validity of some of my beliefs. This is not an easy process and has put an enormous strain on relationships with my family and some members of my community, but I have to be allowed to think for myself and those who try to stop me doing that are not helping me.

You guys were SO supportive at a really hard time, and no matter where I end up, I will always be grateful for that.

Love and peace to you all.


Alice
xxx

Thanks Ollie.

I will post some stuff, but I don't have the ideas straight in my head yet and I don't want to misrepresent them.

Just getting my thoughts in order....

Thanks for the support.
x
Alice