It was written by a vicar called G P Taylor. Its supposed to be a fantasy novel including Christianity - trying to be another Lewis, I guess.

I've got a copy, read it halfway and got bored. But then, I'm not really its intended readership age. It has apparently been pretty popular, and there is a sequel called Wormwood out at the moment.

I have some bad news for you. That Constitution, only for Americans. That’s rights. You see, not all leaders feel the need to grant their people these rights. It is a shame.

Naturally you feel that an American is worth more than any other race, including races you are actually ruling.

On top of that, Cruel and unusual has been ruled as Torture. And I didn’t see any torture.

Cruel and unusual does not just mean "electrodes on the genitals". It was also defined as things like imprisonment without trial, humiliation, sleep deprivation.....etc etc etc.

I'm a Political Science Major, it is a requirement I’m seen High School baseball teams do worse in their hazing of Freshmen.

Ah, yes the institutionalised torture prevalent among American men. We've heard of that over here.

Yeah, you know, it's funny, I haven't had much opposition. Keep trying.

You didn't learn much in your political classes, huh?

Who said it was to save the Jews? Wars arn't fought for some distant minorities torture (THAT is torture). I never said we fough to save Jews. We did, however, end up saving both the jews AND not-so-Great Britain. Now tell me, how is that rewriting the past?

Assuming you were the only ones fighting against the Nazis and making it into a moral crusade makes it plain that the rumours we hear about the state of American education are, alas, true.

I don’t see a part that says Humiliation is torture. Maybe you should read it.

Try the eighth amendment. I should not be having to tell you your own law.

I have yet to see any torture of Iraqi prisoners.  

Try watching the news.

Go ahead, oppose us. I'm all for you opposing us. So, why don't you stop whinging and start opposing?

I don't want to oppose America as such, I am already opposing you, or hadn't you noticed?

Ok, go a head, tell me how it really was, then.

Well it certainly wasn't to save the Jews. No country entered the war for that reason.

No one very said the pansies don't. Everyone does. The pansies hide behind the Geneva Convetion when it fits them, and ignore it when it doesn't.

So, every nation always tortures enemy prisoners? It is a natural thing, we should accept the torture of others as a normal human instinct, and never ever put in place laws against the torture of other human beings. Right.

I'd like to see a citation.

You have a Constitution, perhaps you should read it sometime.

You seem to be the only person who feels that way.

It is perfectly clear from your posts that you do not think the torture of Iraqi prisoners a terrible thing at all. Presumably a mentality shared by the torturers themselves.

No, I am not. Read my posts before you attack me. In fact, try to avoid attacking me at all. Get your emotions under controll. I'm saying, if you don't like us, you have every right to boycott. If you are going to hate us, then don't bask is the benefits you get from us.

Who said I hated America? You seem to be mistaking my dislike of certain traits of some Americans for all of America. Trouble is, idiots always shout loudest, which is why you get such a bad reputation.  
Your argument appears to be: America is strong, therefore America is right, whatever an American does is right, don't dare oppose us.

Rousseau has a lot to answer for.

You were losing to Hitler untill America came in, as I recall.

Its wonderful, looking at all the American movies rewriting the past to suit their audiences, isn't it?

Next thing we know, people will be saying America came into the war to save the Jews!

Stop placing words in my mouth. If you would like to debate maturely, fine, but do not put words in my mouth.

I am not putting words into your mouth, but following along from what you have said. If you do not like your own conclusions perhaps you should stop holding those ideas.

[we can torture foreigners because we are strong, might makes right, let foreign nations we once swore to protect now bow down before the American super-race!]

No. Not good, but not torture. And even if it is well... so what? Why are the we only country that has to abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you want to continue taking the moral high ground that America so likes to take, yes. And no, America is not the only country who abides by it.

[quote[No one gets upset about other country torturing Americans, with there Government supporting it, but when a set rogue solders mock a few POWs, and the Government frouns on it, we get our balls busted by every pansy Nation in the World.

Ah only pansys do not torture people? If pansys do not torture enemy soldiers then presumably you think the arabs who will, no doubt torture American soldiers are real MEN and just great.

By who? Who defined torture as humilation? Fred Savage?  

By your own country.

Said who? Not me.

You're certainly giving a good impression of condoning it.

Well, what can I say, we are the strongest country in the world. We have States larger then most countries.

And few people.

It is to bad you don’t like us, but, well, honestly, there is nothing you can do about it. If you feel so strongly about it, boycott us.

So let me see, you're saying, we can torture foreigners because we are strong, might makes right, let foreign nations we once swore to protect now bow down before the American super-race!. Thats disgusting. That is also against everything that has ever been good in America.

And that is the mentality that led to these atrocities in the first place, the hidebound, insular, ignorant mentality of small-town ill-educated people. And there was I feeling sorry for such people, thinking they must be poor, ill-educated, treat badly by their own government - and then I see it in you.

Whine all you want, none of these countries are going to do a thing about it.

It is fortunate that I know that most Americans are decent people who do NOT condone torture of other people.

We stood up against Hitler, we can do so against America if it ever turns into the tyrannical, evil, immoral nation you seem to wish it will be.

Torture, Broken? Torture? PLEASE! Being hung on a cross, that is torture. Being stretched across a rack, that is torture. Cutting finger off, that is torture. Making POWs pile up, not torture.

Being forced to commit sexual acts? Not torture?

Take pictures of POWs without clothing on, not torture.

Humiliation of that sort is defined as torture.

Just wishing on that star, Broken, maybe America will fall soon, too.

Ah, I see, it is acceptable to you for your soldiers to behave in such ways.

Dear me, Tibby, it is people like yourself who are giving America an incredibly bad name across Europe and the Middle East.

I think its quite sweet really.

Actually there has been something of a flourising in the idea of monasticism lately - or at least in the UK. Not enough to have people go off and become nuns or monks, but the idea is attractive to people. Probably because monasteries are traditionally (or considered to be) in pretty areas of the countryside.

The online things are barely-disguised scams, mostly. Particularly the "free" ones. They always say buy this, buy that, buy a certificate, a book, whatever.   No such thing as a free lunch.

[not]

A tiny few have smeared the reputation and sacrifice of the many. It's also a horrible thing for the many to bear any punishment or disgrace for something they had no part of. If I were the parent of a young man or woman who gave their life in honor, I would be angry that anyone did something so gross and illegal that it cast a shadow on the honorable service of all.

Its not just those who have already died. Right now, you do not want to be an American and taken prisoner in Iraq. All they're going to think is, if they are going to torture people, they'll get the same back. And the same goes for the UK troops, whether or not those photographs were faked. There is absolutely no way I'd go to Iraq in any capacity in the present conditions, and I pity the people already there - even if they wouldn't dream of hurting an Iraqi prisoner it will be assumed they would torture. And the people aren't that keen on them to begin with...

I understand why they're attacking your defence guy though. The people directly involved must (and presumably will) be prosecuted - in fact I should think their lives will be ruined by what they have done. Considering that they have harmed others, and completely and utterly wrecked what was left of America's reputation abroad, that is fine with me. But their superiors must also face something of the rap for this - for allowing conditions to flourish where it could happen, where people could not report what was happening, where it could not have been stopped.

And frankly, President Bush has come out of this badly. The fact that he only bothered to apologise when the media found out - is disgraceful. It makes it look - true or not - that he only cares if it might possibly impact his chances in your elections, and that that was the reason he apologised, not because he actually cared. He should also give his scriptwriter the sack, that was a very weird apology he gave, they should have toned up his words an awful lot, it would have meant more.

There is something curious about this though. The female soldier who was pictured - well her family, her mother and her sister have been on the news over here in the UK quite a lot, saying that the photo was either staged, faked or she was forced to do as she did. But apparently the US networks are saying that her family have left the country, gone on a holiday or something and cannot be contacted. No idea why that should be, that we are getting news you're not. (I only heard about it because my dad was in Texas last week).

JudgeNot,

If you wish to be nationalistic about it, may I tell you that we do have concern about the state of our prison system, that we have regular reports and a visiting society - much like the Red Cross - who visit prisoners in an attempt to stamp out the sexual abuse which continues at prisons, and to improve conditions. Psychological and psychiatric help is always available - and I am sure you would be pleased to note that prison chaplaincy is a fast-growing area of Christian ministry.

The blame for some of the events in Iraq is being placed on your prison system, apparently one of the soldiers was a prison guard at a notorious American prison.

And as a "By the Way", we have consistently placed our soldiers in harms way in a greater degree - just to ensure we don't kill innocents.  If we weren't concerned about that our response to the desecration of the 4 bodies would have been to destroy the entire city.

Instead it appears the response to was to systematically torture and sexually abuse prisoners - and take photographs to show how much "fun" it was. Reports are now saying that children were included in the torture.

Way to go.

It depends on how you celebrate it, justme.

As with many things Its only idolatry if you choose to make it so - if you're not worshipping the earth on earth day, but instead giving thanks to the creator of that earth and promising to keep the duty mankind was given in respect to the earth, then that is not idolatry. If you see what I mean.

We don't have earth day in the UK, but I know many Christians over here are environmentally aware. Not worshipping the earth but more positively regarding it as God's creation - not man's possession.

Bleh if I could remember more of the ecotheology things I did at university I could write more....but my brain is mush.

Sura 2:62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

The Quran does not appear to treat Christians and Jews (and Sabaeans...I don't know who they are/were, samaritans perhaps) as "unbelievers" or "infidels", but calls  them the peoples of the book.

Just a reflection.

You can download it, Amazon has a copy, but they're $187 (is that a lot?) otherwise a specialist bookseller, such as a KJV-only bookshop will sell them (I know, because I got one from one of them).

aha, I have heard of Ronald Knox, if only because one of our students wanted to put something he had written onto a statue of John Knox which was nearby to where I studied

I've rarely seen the Knox translation quoted - but if it is similar to the CEV that would be why. Though Michel Quoist does quote from it.

I neither receive nor bring to a fundamentalist table.