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Theology => General Theology => Topic started by: Silver Surfer on October 30, 2004, 04:17:34 PM



Title: How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on October 30, 2004, 04:17:34 PM
  This topic deals with 'seemingly apparent' contraditions found in the Bible.
For example:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).  
#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13).   Both of these are valid Bible verses....and both are absolutely True !
Even though they seem to contradict each other, and both of these Bible statements are made by the same Bible writer, the Apostle Paul.

The human mind, unaided by the Holy Spirit....seems unable to make these seemingly contradictory Bible statements harmonize. The human mind will choose one Bible verse, and ignore the other....which is extremely dangerous !
WHY ?
Because Jesus said: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", (Matthew 4:4).  

More examples:
#1.) 'No sin in breaking the Law', (Ephesians 2:15).
#2.) 'Breaking the Law is sin', (1 John 3:4).


#1.) 'Not to be Judged by the Law', (Colossians 2:16).
#2.) 'We will be Judged by the Law', (Ecclesiastes 12:13,14....James 2:10-12).


#1.) 'Perfect Law of Liberty', (James 1:25 ands 2:12).
#2.) 'Person who keeps this Law, loses his liberty', (Galations 5:1,3).


#1.) 'Law abolish by Christ', (Ephesians 2:15).
#2.) 'Law established by Christ' (Romans 3:31).

The list goes on and on and on....

Does the Bible contradict itself ?

Some people have reached the conclusion that it does.

Personally, I believe that the Bible is in perfect harmony with itself, once understood how to harmonize seemingly contradictory statements.

OK, Lets' look at the first example again:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).   "As you look into the Lord's great moral looking glass, His holy law, His standard of character, do not for a moment suppose that it can cleanse you. There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor".(6th Bible commentaries, by E.G White)

#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13). This is answered by another Bible verse:    "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law, (Romans 3:31).
How can we as humans (Christians) uphold the Law of God, in our feeble human strength ?

Answer: We cannot !

"For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth", (Romans 10:4).  Christ living in the converted person 'does' the works of righteousness, which is the keeping of all 10 commandments of God....therefore we cannot boast of anything, because we are only allowing Christ to work his will, in our daily lives.
 


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on October 30, 2004, 04:29:16 PM
(1 John 1:8)  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1 John 1:9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1 John 1:10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on October 30, 2004, 04:51:12 PM
(1 John 1:8)  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Therefore let no man declare that they are 'saved'. Because being 'saved' (past tense) means they are sinless. As salvation is being saved [from] sin (Matthew 1:21).
Quote
(1 John 1:9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And as God reveals some sin we are not yet aware of...we are to take steps to correct those faults, thru the power of God:   Acts 17:30   "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent".  
Quote
(1 John 1:10)  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23).

But let's not ignore:
Romans   6:12   "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.  
  6:13   Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.  
  6:14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.  
  6:15   What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid".


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 30, 2004, 06:00:12 PM
Silver Surfer wrote:
Christ living in the converted person 'does' the works of righteousness, which is the keeping of all 10 commandments of God....therefore we cannot boast of anything, because we are only allowing Christ to work his will, in our daily lives.

Nana:
Perhaps you could tell us which of the 10 commandments you have kept since you have "allowed Christ to work His will in you".

Thanx,  Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on October 30, 2004, 07:51:07 PM
Silver Surfer wrote:
Christ living in the converted person 'does' the works of righteousness, which is the keeping of all 10 commandments of God....therefore we cannot boast of anything, because we are only allowing Christ to work his will, in our daily lives.

Nana:
Perhaps you could tell us which of the 10 commandments you have kept since you have "allowed Christ to work His will in you".

Thanx,  Nana

When I have 'allowed' Christ to control me, I have kept them all.
 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  
  2:4   He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him",(1 John 2)  


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 30, 2004, 07:59:00 PM
you have kept all the commandments . . . by what/who's definition?

thanx, Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on October 31, 2004, 12:37:06 AM
Quote
Silver Surfer Said:

When I have 'allowed' Christ to control me, I have kept them all.
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  
  2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him",(1 John 2)  

Silver Surfer,

You absolutely HAVE NOT kept the 10 Commandments, nor have you kept the Commandments of Christ.

If one lives under the Law, one must obey all or be in violation of all. Since you are living under the Law, you are in violation of all. I'm living under the Gospel of God's Grace, not the Law.

You need to read all of 1 John one day when your eyes are open. There are many instructions in the New Testament for Christian living, specifically for living a life of joy more full in Jesus. Many of these instructions are known as exhortations, not commandments. There are many other portions of Scripture that deal with a Christian's testimony before men. Some folks confuse what a Christian's testimony should be with Salvation. These are pretty common problems for someone who has been brain-washed and is living under a false prophet or false prophetess. You are being robbed of joy in Jesus, and you are trying to blind others and rob them. Your false prophetess has actually stolen a beginner's understanding of Jesus from you.

Silver Surfer, I feel very sorry for you and pray for you daily.

Tom


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 31, 2004, 01:23:34 AM
Thanx, Tom, that was cool  8)

I have wrestled with 1 John because he says that if you say you are without sin, you are a liar - but on the other hand, he says that if you belong to God, you cannot sin.

As I was reading and meditating on this whole concept, I was reminded of Jesus' words.

Matt 15:18 But the things which come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies;
20 these are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.

and in Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight, but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

When we are reborn of His Spirit we become one with Him.

Paul also stated that we do that which we don't want to do and we don't do what we want to do.

So we have a war within us - the flesh desiring to sin, and the Spirit desiring to remain pure.

At the end of Rom 7, Paul says - who shall deliver me from this body of death - it is Jesus.  Rom 8:1 - there is therefore now no condmenation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Tying those thoughts together - we sin because we are in the flesh.  But the heart is what God looks at.  The intents and motives have always been His prerequiste for judging our sin through the blood of Jesus.

Even though we sin, we confess it and by the grace of God, through the atoning work of Jesus, we are considered righteous.

It is a matter of the heart before God.  The heart that is dedicated to Him and has been reborn of Spirit, with the motive and intent to do God's will, in spite of the fact that we fail - but in His grace, He considers us to be without sin in the heart - our attitude and position before Him - knowing that without Him, and His grace we would be doomed to hell.

Let me reiterate, that I am not saying we are without sin - we all sin and come short of the glory of God.  It is the condition of the heart that God sees as sinless/righteous because He dwells within us - does that make sense?

I wonder if anyone has a different perspective or can explain  why John seems to make a contridictory statement?

Shalom, Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on October 31, 2004, 10:34:50 AM
you have kept all the commandments . . . by what/who's definition?

thanx, Nana
By God's definition, of course.

I believe the Bible gives us enough guildlines for us to follow:
Jesus said:"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", (Matthew 4:4).
 
B-Basic
I-Instructions  
B-Before
L-Leaving
E-Earth



Let's take the 4th commandment for example:

 Exodus  20:8   "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy...
.  
  20:9   Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
 
  20:10   But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:  
  20:11   For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it".


Point #1.) I don't work on the Sabbath. I attend church on Sabbath after the example of Jesus Christ.
(The United Sates Constitution 'presently' gives me the right to freedom of religion, therefore no employer can fire me for refusing to work on that day).

Point #2.) The 7th day Sabbath is 'NOT' Jewish, as God blessed that day......and made it holy (Genesis 2:2,3).....some 2300 years 'BEFORE', there ever was a Jew.

And, the 4th commandment points us back to that fact, that the 7th day Sabbath, started at Creation week, not on Mt.Sinai.

Therefore using this information that the 7th day Sabbath is not Jewish.....I can read Ezekiel 20:20 in that light:
"And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a [sign] between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".  

Also, I understand the fact.....'that to break just one of the commandments, is to break them all', (James 2:10-12).



Now, before I end this, I want to imply:

 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous".  (1 John 5:3).



 


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Soldier4Christ on October 31, 2004, 11:24:56 AM
Job 28:20  Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?

Job 28:28  And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Job 34:37  For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Job 38:36  Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?


Eph 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21  Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


1Ti 1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14  And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 Joh 1:17  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

2Ti 2:7  Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Praise The Lord For His Infinite Grace!


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 31, 2004, 02:09:45 PM
double post - oops  :-[


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 31, 2004, 02:18:49 PM
Silver Surfer,
You are basing your life in God on a false premise of doing.  God does not require that we do something to earn His favor.

God desires that we love Him with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Keeping the Law of Moses has nothing to do with relationship or serving God as of the New Covenant.

The desire to keep the Law of Moses is based on an Old Covenant perspective - one in which God demanded  Law keeping in order to train and regulate life to measure up to His holiness.  It was a fleshly action because the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers as He does today.  Believers were not reborn of water and Spirit.

It is true that the Holy Spirit indwelt many OT people, but it was a different dispensation because Jesus had not yet been crucified and resurrected.

Keeping the Law of Moses is no longer required, because it was based on a different system of obedience - a strict set of regulations and commands that defined the decalogue and how to keep it in accordance to the will of God.

When Jesus came, that system was put to rest.  The decalogue was the base from which Jesus taught, but always, in every instance - when the decalogue was referred to, Jesus showed a new way of obedience based on the motives of the heart, not blind obedience to a system.

Keeping "all of the commandments" now entails the laws written on the heart - which is being led by the Holy Spirit to do the things that God has prepared for us to do, not rules and regulations, but the motive of the heart towards others.  The love of Christ, the mind of Christ - which is compassion, mercy, justice.  His laws were:  to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  To love your neighbor as yourself.  To love one another as He loved us.  The beatitudes are a good start as to the Law of Christ.

If you look at the context of Matt 5:17-20 - the famous "keep the Law" verses,  were presented within the sermon on the mount.  When Jesus refers to the laws of Moses, it is how to live a godly life based on life in Jesus, as He breathes new life into the command by changing and redefining it.  He is the Way, the Truth, the Life.  He made point after point that the heart would rule our actions.  When the Holy Spirit indwells, the heart becomes one with God and out of the heart proceeds the will of God.

As David said.  Your Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against You.  It is so simple.  Why make it so complicated by a force of will to do commands that are not relevent to a life in Jesus?

The mistake made is that people say because He "kept" Torah, we should too.  That is a false premise.  Jesus did not say to keep Torah.  He said He gave a new commandment.

Jesus said that heaven and earth would not pass away until every part of the law was fulfilled.  He fulfilled it on Calvery and in His teachings - because all the law and prophets hang on these two laws - love God, love your neighbor.  This is the beauty of grace - that came in the person of Jesus Christ.  The perfect fulfillment of the law and prophets.

for reference:  Matt 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.
18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, self-control, [righteousness, and truth - Eph 5:9],against such things there is not a law.
24 But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another

Shalom, Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contradictions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on October 31, 2004, 03:19:55 PM
AMEN PASTOR ROGER AND MALKYEL,

Brother and Sister, I can easily see that both of you and I share the peace of God that is found only in Jesus Christ. I give thanks for the simplicity of the Gospel of the Grace of God and our joy in Jesus.

There are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible  records the beautiful truth of Jesus coming unto His own, and His own rejected him. Thankfully, there is a huge difference between Israel and the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. The Apostle Paul spent much of his life in conflict with those who taught the Law instead of the Gospel of the Grace of God. He rebuked, corrected, and taught them, but his entire life was still spent in conflict. Many of the same conflicts Paul faced are quite real today.

One can look at the counsels of his time and see that many were slow to understand:  (1) The Law of Faith in Jesus Christ sets us free from the curse of sin and death;  (2) The CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is not Israel;  (3) This is the dispensation of the Grace of God, not the Millennial Kingdom of God where Jesus Christ will rule and reign from the Throne of David.

Paul really spent his life trying to preach the pure and simple Gospel of the Grace of God. Paul longed for fellow believers to rejoice in their fellowship within the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. It was hard to explain that the real church wasn't made by human hands. Paul had many obstacles in his path, many dealing with the Law and the traditions of men. In fact, many of his obstacles were the teaching of men who were opposed to the Gospel of the Grace of God. It was a hard and difficult time for Paul, and it appears those times are still with us.

(1)  Many are still waiting for the Messiah, as they continue to reject Jesus Christ.

(2)  Many look for the King to take HIS Throne, and HE most certainly will at His appointed time. However, that time is not now.

(3)  Many already have the Kingdom of God in their hearts, Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour forever. The Kingdom of Heaven should not be confused with the Millennial Kingdom rule and reign of Jesus from the Throne of David. The Apostle Paul taught that we can have Jesus Christ in our hearts right now. We don't have to wait for the Millennial Kingdom to have Jesus Christ as LORD over our lives and hearts. This is the reality of Jesus Christ and the Cross - RIGHT NOW!

There were many during Paul's time who confused the Law with the Grace and Love of God. That problem is still rampant today. There were also many during Paul's time who confused Israel with the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. A portion of Israel accepted Jesus Christ and are members of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. However, one must remember that God made specific promises to Israel, separate and distinct from the Body of Christ. God also made specific promises to the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST, and one must remember that most of Israel does not belong to this body of believers. One can't casually mix Israel with the BODY OF CHRIST and hope to understand the future history already written in the Holy Bible. Israel will most certainly be the center of world attention in the age to come. God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to Israel, and God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

Brothers and Sisters, the reality of today is the Gospel of the Grace of God, Jesus Christ, the Cross, His Love, His Forgiveness, and our faith in HIM as Lord and Saviour. I give thanks this reality is now. We don't have to wait - HE will come into our hearts, forgive us, love us, and hold us safe and secure forever.

This is the GOOD NEWS that is a reality right now.

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Soldier4Christ on October 31, 2004, 03:34:43 PM
blackeyedpeas


Amen to all that you said.



Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Symphony on October 31, 2004, 04:23:43 PM

'Contradictions' keep it interesting.



     8)


Title: How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Brother Love on October 31, 2004, 04:54:26 PM
blackeyedpeas


Amen to all that you said.



I second that :)



(http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/bljpg2.jpg)


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 31, 2004, 04:58:49 PM
BEP wrote:
One can't casually mix Israel with the BODY OF CHRIST and hope to understand the future history already written in the Holy Bible. Israel will most certainly be the center of world attention in the age to come. God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to Israel, and God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

Nana:
I think people get confused because Isra'el means different things depending on the passage.  In Romans 9,10,11, it is clear that Paul refers to all believers in Messiah as Isra'el.  And we know that unless you are grafted into the Vine and the Root [both of which are Jesus - it is error to say that Isra'el is the root], you are not part of the true Isra'el that God has ordained.

Isra'el is also the nation that God chose to be His people.  Because they rejected Him and broke His covenant, His mercy was broadened to include the nations.  

I find it interesting to note that Stephan referred to Isra'el as the church at Mt Sinai.  But I believe that referrence ties in with Pauls exposition in Heb 12 when he reminds us of the faithful Isra'elites who believed and were counted as the true church also because of their belief in the promised Messiah.

I believe the NT is the church made manifest in a fuller sense, or the mystery made known by the revelation of Jesus Christ, and upon His teachings and Messiahship was the church further founded.  "Membership" by belief in Him for salvation.

The "church" as we know it today can mean different things - but there is only one true church - the body of Messiah - those from all denominations that are true believers and followers of Jesus.

For some time now, I have been curious as to why the NT is considered the age of grace or the dispensation of grace.  I am puzzled, because the OT talks of the Grace of God over and over again.  I understand that Jesus was grace manifested for salvation. But that does not seem to explain a grace that existed before He came.  OT salvation was extended to those who believed the promise of Messiah and were considered righteous.  The grace of God thoughout the whole Bible is extended without "favoritism"  but on the compassion and mercy of our Almighty God - who does not change and is forever the same.

Shalom, Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on October 31, 2004, 09:28:21 PM
Silver Surfer,
You are basing your life in God on a false premise of doing.  God does not require that we do something to earn His favor.
You're right.
Christians do...not to earn favor, but to show their love for Christ.
Jesus said: "IF...you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).
In other words:
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous", (1 John 5:3)  

Quote

Keeping the Law of Moses has nothing to do with relationship or serving God as of the New Covenant.
I have nothing to do with the Law of Moses, as it was abolished at the cross.
I 'NEVER' tell anyone to look unto the Law of Moses, never have , and never will.

The 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17) is what I bring to the attention of people, that want to be saved.





.

Quote
As David said.  Your Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against You.  It is so simple.  Why make it so complicated by a force of will to do commands that are not relevent to a life in Jesus?
If you don't know what sin is.....how can you not sin against God ?

You throw away the 'ONLY' thing that tells you what sin is ?!?



Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on October 31, 2004, 09:53:34 PM
Silver Surfer wrote:
I have nothing to do with the Law of Moses, as it was abolished at the cross.
I 'NEVER' tell anyone to look unto the Law of Moses, never have , and never will.

The 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17) is what I bring to the attention of people, that want to be saved.

Nana:
The Law was not abolished at the cross.  It was changed, redefined.  It is still the Word of God and stands as written forever.  Jesus is the end of the Law - as in keeping it by it's rules and regulations, but is still a reminder of the price He paid.

Why would you point people to the decalogue and not to Jesus?

Silver Surfer wrote:
If you don't know what sin is.....how can you not sin against God ?

You throw away the 'ONLY' thing that tells you what sin is ?!?

Nana:
I have no quarrel with the decalogue.  I am simply saying that by using it as a tally at the end of the day as a mark of success and thereby guaranteeing that we have automatically fulfilled the will of God.

The entire Word of God points to sin.  The Holy Spirit convicts of sin. When the Spirit of God indwells a believer, sin is recognized immediately.  Even the unsaved have a perception of moral apptitude.

I object to using the Law of God as a Drocules Sword hanging above our heads.

Shalom, Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: AJ on November 01, 2004, 12:42:45 PM

The 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17) is what I bring to the attention of people, that want to be saved.



You should be using Jesus Christ here...not the 10 commandments...Paul said to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...not keep the 10 commandments and thou shalt be saved. This is a great error on your part...we need to preach Christ and him crucified...or we will cause people to go about trying to establish their own righteousness... by keeping the law...remember what Christ said about the thief and the robers, you cant come to the father except through Him. Trying to keep the 10 commandments wont save anyone. Point them to Christ, not the 10 commandments... and he will give them the law of the Spirit.....


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Soldier4Christ on November 01, 2004, 01:49:12 PM
Silver Surfer,

I do understand what you have been saying. There is a difference between the "Law of Moses" and the Ten Commandments. It is a difference that many people do not understand.

The Law of Moses has to do with the sacrifice of animals, the how and wherefores of setting up the sacrifice altar plus a few other laws given by Moses. These laws were done away with, (or I should say changed) with Jesus and the cross.

The Ten Commandments were given by God to Moses on the mount. Yes these commandments do still pertain and as followers of Jesus we are to keep them. The important thing here is to understand what it means to be under the Grace of God through Jesus Christ. Those that attempt to keep these commandments without accepting this grace first will be condemned to an eternal death.

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If we love Jesus we will have the desire to abide by these commandments. Will we succeed even after accepting Jesus as our Saviour? No for we are still in the flesh and the flesh is weak.

Mat 26:41  Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

He will continue forgiving us for our weakness (sins).

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Can we overcome those sins when we are tempted? With His help, yes. When tempted we must take it to Him just as we must do if we were weak and fell into temptation.

That is the wonderous benefit of grace.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.




Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: AJ on November 01, 2004, 02:25:31 PM
Amen brother  :) the law is kept by Christ in us...or fulfilled in us.

Rom 8:1  [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Jemidon2004 on November 05, 2004, 08:54:09 AM
This seems like an interesting thread. I reckon i'll throw my two cents in if that's worth anything. :)

Here we go with the commandments rhetoric again. Pastor Roger, MalkyEL and Beeps. All very good posts from each one of you. It all lines up from what i've read, except for Silver's posts. Why does it seem everytime we get started on talking about Scripture he has to bring up the 'commandments.'

Question: If i don't keep all the commandments, am I no longer a Christian?

Answer: No...I'm still a child of God, and I still have salvation through Jesus Christ and am forgiven of my sins because of the Blood of Jesus. These verses support this:

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Colossians 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 Acts 5:29-32
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:14-17 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Galations 4:3-7 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[1] of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[2] God through Christ.

Ok i believe that's enough for today on that subject. We are adopted sons of God, even though we can't fully keep His commandments, we are still His sons. and He will discipline us as found in Hebrews 12:3-11:

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


        "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
        Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
        For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
        And scourges every son whom He receives."


If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Ok now we see that God chastens His children. Why does he do this, because He wants us to stay on the narrow path and not deviate from it. Those who think they can keep all of His commandments 100% of the time are disillusioned and have already fallen off the path. Read what Christ says in John:

John 5:34-46
Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
"I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Notice Jesus is talking to the pharisees here. He says that they search the Scriptures or (commandments of God) and in them they think they have eternal life. He also says that they've not heard the Voice that speaks of Christ. So pretty much, Jesus is pointing out here that if you focus too much on the commandments, you miss Christ completely. Christ is whom the Bible was written about. How much plainer can I get. "IN the Beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD was GOD" Jesus is the Word, the Bible was written so that we may know that there is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved. The Bible doesn't say there is no other 'commandment' under heaven by which men must be saved, it says there is no other NAME under heaven. So continuing to focus on the commandments is kind of dangerous...because your focus is more on the Law rather than the maker of the Law. the Creation more than the Creator. I do hope you see what i'm talking about, because my fingers are about blue from all this typing...lol.

And to all the others on here...again great posts...but i figured i'd add my two cents in...Wow this was longer than I had intended. May God richly bless the reading and study of this post and His Word.
God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on November 05, 2004, 12:00:51 PM
AMEN JOSHUA!!!

Nice Post Brother!

Love In Christ,
Tom


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Evangelist on November 05, 2004, 12:45:09 PM
Nana:
Quote
wonder if anyone has a different perspective or can explain  why John seems to make a contridictory statement?

John makes a little "play" on the words here that can only be understood through the Greek tensing of sin.

On the one part, the word "sin" (1 Jn 1:10) is perfect active, which simply means that one is living in a continual and constant commission of sin...or, there has been no change in the lifestyle (meaning heart).

The other (in 1 Jn. 2:1) is in 2nd aorist active subjunctive, meaning that it is considered as a "timeline", requires the active participation of the "sinner", and MAY or MAY NOT occur.  

Simply put, it would be like looking at a graph chart.

On the upper part of the chart is the state we'll call "sinless", or where we are placed by Christ AFTER we have believed.  The bottom part of the chart is the state of constantly being sinful (pre-salvation).

Looking at the line in the top, we'll see an occasional "blip", where the line drops down to the "sinful" category, before coming back up into the good part.  Kinda like an EKG.

That characterizes our life. God lifts us up (by faith and belief), but our mortal bodies and minds (Rom. 7) cause us to stumble and do wrong.  But, we no longer "reside permanently" in the sinful area, having been made the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.

Hope this little diagram helps.
(http://www.john812.com/img/sinline.jpg)


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on November 06, 2004, 02:48:50 PM

I object to using the Law of God as a Drocules Sword hanging above our heads.
And you are right.....The Law of God (the 10 commandments) is the standard by which God wants everyone to reach for, as it is, the very foundation of what LOVE is !


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on November 06, 2004, 03:30:07 PM

I object to using the Law of God as a Drocules Sword hanging above our heads.
And you are right.....The Law of God (the 10 commandments) is the standard by which God wants everyone to reach for, as it is, the very foundation of what LOVE is !

WRONG!!

The Law is the curse of sin and death.

Faith in Jesus Christ sets us free from the curse of sin and death.

We look to JESUS - not the Law. JESUS saved us - not the law. JESUS gave us life - Law gave us death.

Jesus Christ died on the Cross for us. Jesus Loves us, wants us to Love HIM, and wants us to accept HIM as Lord and Saviour.

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: MalkyEL on November 07, 2004, 04:57:57 PM
Yup, BEP  ;D

Messiah is the foundation of Love, not the Law.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.


1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Shalom, Nana


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on November 19, 2004, 08:12:25 AM

'Contradictions' keep it interesting.



     8)
But, if not handled correctly, can lead to eternal destruction ....as 2 Peter 3:16 points out:

 " As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction".  


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Bluewolf on November 21, 2004, 05:37:05 PM
 This topic deals with 'seemingly apparent' contraditions found in the Bible.
For example:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).  
#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13).   Both of these are valid Bible verses....and both are absolutely True !
Even though they seem to contradict each other, and both of these Bible statements are made by the same Bible writer, the Apostle Paul.

The human mind, unaided by the Holy Spirit....seems unable to make these seemingly contradictory Bible statements harmonize. The human mind will choose one Bible verse, and ignore the other....which is extremely dangerous !
WHY ?

Each epistle written by Paul was written to a particular church/culture and the issues he speaks of vary depending on the issues of that church. The first one you quoted do not seem to mean that, when it is not taken out of context. The spirit of his message in references to the law were in making a case for grace, imo. I really do not see contradictions in that one. Did not look at the other ones you quoted. I have not seen any contradictions in the Bible. Now I have seen people pick things and verses apart in attempt to create contradictions, but personally have not seen any in the Bible.

Laura


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Bluewolf on November 21, 2004, 05:58:37 PM
Thanx, Tom, that was cool  8)

I have wrestled with 1 John because he says that if you say you are without sin, you are a liar - but on the other hand, he says that if you belong to God, you cannot sin.


i john is one of my favorite epistles. I always liked the simplicity of it. I do not know why this is hard.

We cannot be saved by doing the law. We have sewers for souls. Jesus 'imparts righteousness' to us. So, if we say we have never sinned or that sin is not in us, we are liars. But in Christ, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and if we keep doing the sins that God has convicted us of in a habitual matter, then we demonstrating that we are not of Christ. But that is an inside job, each person knows what the Holy spirit has convicted them of. This is not a license to judge others.

So we work to not sin (the ones we know about as they are revealed) but we will never be perfect nor is it even possible to get rid of our 'sinful nature', the soul core of sin.

That is how I see it. never really thought much about it.

Laura


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: ItalianBird on November 22, 2004, 07:58:46 PM
Guys
The question was posed as to what we are to do w/ contradictions in scripture. and the example given was law vs grace. Thanks to God, I believe I have a good explanation.
Though the bible is inspired by God via His vessels who wrote it, those who wrote it had different degrees of revelation of what was revealed to the church at the time of thier writings.
The Church didnt know of the gifts of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.  They did not know the revelation of the gentiles coming to Christ, until Cornelius got saved.  In fact, in Acts its reported that the jewish church (jerusalem) was still teaching the law to the jewish christians while the gentile church was not required to do so.

Acts 21:
[17] And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
[18] And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
[19] And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
[20] And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
[21] And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
[22] What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
[23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
[24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
[25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

So, There are some books in the NT, such as James that encourage practicing the Law, .. and if you see the 1st verse of James youll see it is written to the 12 tribes.  the jewish christians.

I personally believe that the reason Paul went to jerusalem, was to convince the elders of the church of the gospel of grace.  but he never got that far.
nonetheless, from the book of hebrews we can see that Paul (who I believe wrote it) did reach those in the church of jerusalem via the book.  and we see from the later books of 1+2nd Peter and John and 1,2,and 3rd John that they later embraced grace.


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Bluewolf on November 23, 2004, 05:00:51 PM
Guys

t
So, There are some books in the NT, such as James that encourage practicing the Law, .. and if you see the 1st verse of James youll see it is written to the 12 tribes.  the jewish christians.

I personally believe that the reason Paul went to jerusalem, was to convince the elders of the church of the gospel of grace.  but he never got that far.
nonetheless, from the book of hebrews we can see that Paul (who I believe wrote it) did reach those in the church of jerusalem via the book.  and we see from the later books of 1+2nd Peter and John and 1,2,and 3rd John that they later embraced grace.


Never saw James as advocating the law. The way I read it is that the works he spoke of did not earn salvation. We are saved by grace. Works demonstrate that we are saved by grace. If I person says they are saved, yet is not demonstrating the love of Christ by feeding the poor, etc, you have to wonder if they were really saved. It is not the works that save them, but if a person loves jesus, they will be demonstrating that love.

Like to paraphrase 'you say you believe...even the demons believe and shudder'

Believe, the word translated from greek includes 'adheres to, trusts in and relies on'(john 3:16). It is not just a 'head' belief. A total belief results in action, although the action/law is not what saves a person.

Don't see any contradiction...

Laura


Title: Re:How to Handle Contradictions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on November 24, 2004, 02:18:34 PM
Brothers and Sisters,

There are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. What may appear to be contradictions are easily explained by looking at the time, the speaker, the audience, and the purpose. One must make a huge distinction between before the CROSS and after the CROSS. One must also realize that Israel is NOT the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

1 John is an excellent example, as are many others when the subject is apparent contradictions. Reading the first chapter of 1 John solves a lot of apparent contradictions. It is very important to put portions of Scripture into context and understand who the audience is and what the purpose is for the Scripture. As an example, there is a huge difference in the requirements for Salvation, as opposed to what the testimony before men should be. Christians are definitely instructed to live a testimony before men that is pleasing to God.

Regarding works, Christians are instructed to do good works in love and appreciation. The Holy Bible is clear that any good works that we do as a duty, instead of love, will be burned up.

I think that the single most important thing to do while studying the Holy Bible is to study Scripture in context. Isolating portions of Scripture without the context usually leads to the so-called contradictions that don't exist.

Love In Christ,
Tom


Title: Re:How to Handle Contradictions in Scripture
Post by: 2nd Timothy on November 24, 2004, 02:44:08 PM
AMEN PASTOR ROGER AND MALKYEL,

Brother and Sister, I can easily see that both of you and I share the peace of God that is found only in Jesus Christ. I give thanks for the simplicity of the Gospel of the Grace of God and our joy in Jesus.

There are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible  records the beautiful truth of Jesus coming unto His own, and His own rejected him. Thankfully, there is a huge difference between Israel and the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. The Apostle Paul spent much of his life in conflict with those who taught the Law instead of the Gospel of the Grace of God. He rebuked, corrected, and taught them, but his entire life was still spent in conflict. Many of the same conflicts Paul faced are quite real today.

One can look at the counsels of his time and see that many were slow to understand:  (1) The Law of Faith in Jesus Christ sets us free from the curse of sin and death;  (2) The CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is not Israel;  (3) This is the dispensation of the Grace of God, not the Millennial Kingdom of God where Jesus Christ will rule and reign from the Throne of David.

Paul really spent his life trying to preach the pure and simple Gospel of the Grace of God. Paul longed for fellow believers to rejoice in their fellowship within the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. It was hard to explain that the real church wasn't made by human hands. Paul had many obstacles in his path, many dealing with the Law and the traditions of men. In fact, many of his obstacles were the teaching of men who were opposed to the Gospel of the Grace of God. It was a hard and difficult time for Paul, and it appears those times are still with us.

(1)  Many are still waiting for the Messiah, as they continue to reject Jesus Christ.

(2)  Many look for the King to take HIS Throne, and HE most certainly will at His appointed time. However, that time is not now.

(3)  Many already have the Kingdom of God in their hearts, Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour forever. The Kingdom of Heaven should not be confused with the Millennial Kingdom rule and reign of Jesus from the Throne of David. The Apostle Paul taught that we can have Jesus Christ in our hearts right now. We don't have to wait for the Millennial Kingdom to have Jesus Christ as LORD over our lives and hearts. This is the reality of Jesus Christ and the Cross - RIGHT NOW!

There were many during Paul's time who confused the Law with the Grace and Love of God. That problem is still rampant today. There were also many during Paul's time who confused Israel with the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. A portion of Israel accepted Jesus Christ and are members of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. However, one must remember that God made specific promises to Israel, separate and distinct from the Body of Christ. God also made specific promises to the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST, and one must remember that most of Israel does not belong to this body of believers. One can't casually mix Israel with the BODY OF CHRIST and hope to understand the future history already written in the Holy Bible. Israel will most certainly be the center of world attention in the age to come. God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to Israel, and God will most certainly fulfill all of His promises to the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

Brothers and Sisters, the reality of today is the Gospel of the Grace of God, Jesus Christ, the Cross, His Love, His Forgiveness, and our faith in HIM as Lord and Saviour. I give thanks this reality is now. We don't have to wait - HE will come into our hearts, forgive us, love us, and hold us safe and secure forever.

This is the GOOD NEWS that is a reality right now.

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Brother, absolutely outstanding Post!

The only I could possibly add to that is a loud,

AMEN!!!

Grace and Peace!


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on November 25, 2004, 05:34:20 PM

Never saw James as advocating the law. The way I read it is that the works he spoke of did not earn salvation. We are saved by grace. Works demonstrate that we are saved by grace. If I person says they are saved, yet is not demonstrating the love of Christ by feeding the poor, etc, you have to wonder if they were really saved. It is not the works that save them, but if a person loves jesus, they will be demonstrating that love.

Christians are saved, to keep the Law:
"For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".(Romans 10:4).

So, Christians are not to 'keep the Law',  to be saved.
Christ lives in a converted person, to observe Righteousness....which is the keeping of all 10 commandments of God (Exodus 20:3-17).


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Symphony on November 25, 2004, 11:55:50 PM
Saying that there are contradictions in the Bible might be the same as saying that the Bible is obscure, or, perhaps more accurately, an "enigma".

Suppose the Bible had no "contradictions", or was not elusive, or "obscure", or an enigma.

Suppose there were no parables?  No poetry.  No literary devices(the Hebrew is loaded with them, in the OT).

Suppose the Bible were as plain as the New York Telephone Directory.

Would anyone read it?

And besides, if it were that plain, wouldn't that be, then, just a series of dictations?

And if were just a series of dictations and platitudes, would anyone definitely read that?

It would be just a legal handbook, like a casebook of legal statutes.

It would just be a legal code.

A "bible" is suppose to be full of challenges, enigmas, apparent "contradictions".  That's what makes it a "bible" - it has to be figured out.

It isn't laid out for you clearly in stone, all of it, there in fine print.  Jesus spoke in parables for a reason.

   :)


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on November 26, 2004, 01:13:08 AM
Symphony,

You made some excellent points.

I also think there is a grand design in the Holy Bible from Almighty God Himself. In fact, I know there is. Many of the Truths of the Holy Bible are spiritually discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit. We all know that one must be saved to have the Holy Spirit in their heart, so much of the Holy Bible doesn't make much sense to the lost, except the very shallow things of the Word. The intelligence of the lost person makes little or no difference.

Christians are instructed to study to show ourselves approved as workmen, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. There isn't enough time in several lifetimes to understand all of the deep things of the Word. As Christians, we know that we grow in strength, maturity, and knowledge as we study His Word and yield to His Will. The exact same thing is true with our peace and joy in Him.

Salvation is full and free, but the fullness of our joy and strength in Him requires time, effort, diligence, and a yielding heart. In other words: He give us Salvation free, but our fullness in joy and strength in Him depends on us. Please don't think that I'm suggesting a works gospel, because I'm not. I'm simply saying that a baby Christian will remain a baby Christian until they start studying the Word and yielding to His Will. God's ways are past finding out, but we are given much more than a glimpse in His Word. I'm positive that hosts of mature Christians went home to glory and still had many questions that only God can answer.

Love In Christ,
Tom


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on November 28, 2004, 12:21:31 AM
Saying that there are contradictions in the Bible might be the same as saying that the Bible is obscure, or, perhaps more accurately, an "enigma".

Suppose the Bible had no "contradictions", or was not elusive, or "obscure", or an enigma.

The Bible is God's instruction book for humans to gain knowledge whereby we can undrstand the conditions, whereby we might be saved.

God warns us....."My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children", (Hosea 4:6).

Sin came by breaking God's Law (Adam and Eve), the Christian is the restored human being, to keep God's law (Romans 3:31).
As it is written:  "For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth", (Romans 10:4).

No man can keep the 10 commandments of God....without the power (grace) of God to obey them.

 


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: bluelake on November 28, 2004, 12:37:39 AM
 This topic deals with 'seemingly apparent' contraditions found in the Bible.
For example:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).  
#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13).   Both of these are valid Bible verses....and both are absolutely True !
Even though they seem to contradict each other, and both of these Bible statements are made by the same Bible writer, the Apostle Paul.

The human mind, unaided by the Holy Spirit....seems unable to make these seemingly contradictory Bible statements harmonize. The human mind will choose one Bible verse, and ignore the other....which is extremely dangerous !
WHY ?
Because Jesus said: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", (Matthew 4:4).  

More examples:
#1.) 'No sin in breaking the Law', (Ephesians 2:15).
#2.) 'Breaking the Law is sin', (1 John 3:4).


#1.) 'Not to be Judged by the Law', (Colossians 2:16).
#2.) 'We will be Judged by the Law', (Ecclesiastes 12:13,14....James 2:10-12).


#1.) 'Perfect Law of Liberty', (James 1:25 ands 2:12).
#2.) 'Person who keeps this Law, loses his liberty', (Galations 5:1,3).


#1.) 'Law abolish by Christ', (Ephesians 2:15).
#2.) 'Law established by Christ' (Romans 3:31).

The list goes on and on and on....

Does the Bible contradict itself ?

Some people have reached the conclusion that it does.

Personally, I believe that the Bible is in perfect harmony with itself, once understood how to harmonize seemingly contradictory statements.

OK, Lets' look at the first example again:
#1.)   "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"(Romans 3:28).   "As you look into the Lord's great moral looking glass, His holy law, His standard of character, do not for a moment suppose that it can cleanse you. There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor".(6th Bible commentaries, by E.G White)

#2.) "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the [doers] of the law shall be justified", (Romans 2:13). This is answered by another Bible verse:    "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law, (Romans 3:31).
How can we as humans (Christians) uphold the Law of God, in our feeble human strength ?

Answer: We cannot !

"For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth", (Romans 10:4).  Christ living in the converted person 'does' the works of righteousness, which is the keeping of all 10 commandments of God....therefore we cannot boast of anything, because we are only allowing Christ to work his will, in our daily lives.
 

There is no contradiction of scripture. What is important,  do we always understand what it says. :)
Christ died to annul the whole system of Jewish laws.
It's interesting to contemplate on all of the extra rules that man has added to their various doctrines today. We have the Bible to check things out.  ;)

God bless,
bluelake


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: Silver Surfer on November 28, 2004, 12:53:49 AM
There is no contradiction of scripture. What is important,  do we always understand what it says. :)
Christ died to annul the whole system of Jewish laws.
It's interesting to contemplate on all of the extra rules that man has added to their various doctrines today. We have the Bible to check things out.  ;)

God bless,
bluelake

Oh...you mean like Sunday worship services.....which the Bible does not support ?

Or, like the Immortal soul doctrine...which Satan statred in Eden ?


Title: Re:How to Handle Contraditions in Scripture
Post by: nChrist on November 28, 2004, 03:33:46 PM
Quote
Bluelake Said:

There is no contradiction of scripture. What is important,  do we always understand what it says.
Christ died to annul the whole system of Jewish laws.
It's interesting to contemplate on all of the extra rules that man has added to their various doctrines today. We have the Bible to check things out.

God bless,
bluelake

AMEN BLUELAKE!

Love In Chist,
Tom

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.