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Theology => Debate => Topic started by: Revelation_777 on May 25, 2004, 07:13:57 PM



Title: death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Revelation_777 on May 25, 2004, 07:13:57 PM
 :(   When is the punishment worst then the crime? Criminals are tried and sentenced to years of prison or parole. In some cases they are sentenced to  death. It is alright to punish the criminals, but to go as far as deciding when there life should be ended. It is not ours as humans to decide there fate. We didnt create life so we have no right to end it. It is the same as abortion; killing a life except in this case an adult life. Its still murder! No matter how bad the crime, we have no right  to  determine their time of death. It is a right that belongs to  God only!!


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on May 25, 2004, 08:23:29 PM
Please don't confuse murder with killing.
There is a big difference between ending the life of a murderer and ending the life of an innocent baby.
Comparing the two is comparing oranges and apples.

What do you think the punishment should be for a murderer?


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: ebia on May 26, 2004, 12:41:35 AM
Please don't confuse murder with killing.
There is a big difference between ending the life of a murderer and ending the life of an innocent baby.
Comparing the two is comparing oranges and apples.
They are both fruit.

Quote
What do you think the punishment should be for a murderer?
Surely that's in the hands of God.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Kris777 on May 26, 2004, 01:09:29 AM
I the old testament it does say that if a person or animal kills a person then they must be put to death. I know that it is some where in Genesis I don't exactly know where though.

Kris


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: ebia on May 26, 2004, 03:13:24 AM
I the old testament it does say that if a person or animal kills a person then they must be put to death. I know that it is some where in Genesis I don't exactly know where though.

Kris
It also says we should stone people to death for adultery.  But then Christ had something to say about that.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on May 26, 2004, 08:56:37 AM
Quote
What do you think the punishment should be for a murderer?
Surely that's in the hands of God.

God has given us guidelines.
What do we do?
Let them run free?
Lock them up for a few years?
Have them spend life in prison?
Death penalty?

People can't just run around saying the death penalty is wrong with out coming up with some clear answers to remove the dangers from society.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: infotechadviser on May 29, 2004, 09:23:59 PM
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."  Eccl. 8:11.

If you say that one should not execute a criminal for some such act, you cannot just say it's up to God to punish him. You still have to decide on something, if you're a civil authority.

Jesus made a point about hypocrisy with the priests and elders who wanted to stone the woman, he also made a point about forgiveness. He also had some very strong words for what awaits evildoers.

Remember the foolish "children" who mocked Elijah for his baldness, and Elijah cursed them, and they were mauled by the lion? Of course he reserved the actual sword for the prophets of Baal.

I'm actually not sure about it yet, but there are arguments on both sides that invalidate themselves. For example, to say killing is wrong so don't punish someone with execution, that argument falls down if you apply it to any other crime.

Like kidnapping, holding someone against their will. You'd have to free the entire prison population, unleash them upon your own neighborhood for example, no death penalty, no involuntary incarceration. Hm.. This is wrong too, eh?


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: JudgeNot on May 29, 2004, 11:11:37 PM
The sixth commandment "Thou shall not kill" is more accurately translated "Thou shall not murder".
Huge difference.

There are crimes so heinous as to deserve death on earth.

But even the worst of the worst are given the chance (they all have access to a pastor or priest) to be forgiven by Jesus before they are sent on their way.

We can only pray for them, that they are forgiven by Him, and we see them in Heaven one day.

 


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: JudgeNot on May 29, 2004, 11:38:19 PM
To Whom it may concern:
So, the "men" whose crime is described below, who if proven guilty, should be allowed to live and possibly cut the heads off other little children?  Perhaps we should just give them their advanced PHD in abortion.  >:(

A bail review is set for Tuesday for Adan Espinoza Canela,17, and Policarpio Espinoza, 22. They were each charged with three counts of first-degree murder. They were being held without bail at Baltimore Central Booking and Intake Center. A preliminary hearing is scheduled for June 28.

The men are accused of killing 9-year-old Ricardo Espinoza; his 9-year-old sister, Lucero Quezada, and their 10-year-old cousin Alexis Quezada. The children were found dead Thursday afternoon. One child had been decapitated with a butcher knife; the other two were partially decapitated.


What if they were YOUR children?  Would you still be anti-death penalty?


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Aeline on May 30, 2004, 02:10:51 AM
What if they were YOUR children?  Would you still be anti-death penalty?

Since you asked this question, then I値l answer it in my own opinion. Even though I知 young, and don稚 have children I have an idea of how I壇 feel if someone did that to my family (even if they weren't my family I'd feel the same way). I would hope that he/she would be punished, and I知 not saying 40 years in prison and then let out into the world to do it again. I知 saying, I hope that individual would be punished by lethal injection, and I知 sure that might not seem so humane of me... But do you really want a person out there in the world who could slaughter children?

I知 for the death penalty. When I think of that Helter Skelter incident where that man mutilated that woman and her unborn baby he痴 still alive, and he knows that he got away with it. Even though the law in CA has been changed now, I think it was for a good thing. There are so many freaks out there who would want to make a name of themselves by doing something horrible.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: ebia on May 30, 2004, 02:23:52 AM
Quote
People can't just run around saying the death penalty is wrong with out coming up with some clear answers to remove the dangers from society.
If the object of the exercise is to protect the rest of society, that can be done just as well by lifetime incarceration as by the death penalty.  

Most of the western world operates perfectly well without the death penalty.

Quote
What if they were YOUR children?  Would you still be anti-death penalty?
It's supposed to be one or more of:
protection
punishment
deterent

certainly NOT revenge.

Quote
Like kidnapping, holding someone against their will. You'd have to free the entire prison population, unleash them upon your own neighborhood for example, no death penalty, no involuntary incarceration. Hm.. This is wrong too, eh?
In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to lock anyone up either.  We do the minimum that we need to do to protect the innocent and allow society to operate.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Reba on May 30, 2004, 02:24:38 AM
:(   When is the punishment worst then the crime? Criminals are tried and sentenced to years of prison or parole. In some cases they are sentenced to  death. It is alright to punish the criminals, but to go as far as deciding when there life should be ended. It is not ours as humans to decide there fate. We didnt create life so we have no right to end it. It is the same as abortion; killing a life except in this case an adult life. Its still murder! No matter how bad the crime, we have no right  to  determine their time of death. It is a right that belongs to  God only!!


Yup and God left us a set of rules, guidelines to live by and the rules  allow for capital punishment.

Lev 24:17

17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
KJV

 Lev 24:17

17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
KJV

Num 35:16-17

16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
KJV

In reading the whole text one can see they had 'due prosses' of law.  Jesus in the story of the  woman cought in adultry carried the law through to completeness. The jury simply could not convect.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: ebia on May 30, 2004, 02:26:51 AM
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."  Eccl. 8:11.

If you say that one should not execute a criminal for some such act, you cannot just say it's up to God to punish him. You still have to decide on something, if you're a civil authority.

Jesus made a point about hypocrisy with the priests and elders who wanted to stone the woman, he also made a point about forgiveness. He also had some very strong words for what awaits evildoers.

Remember the foolish "children" who mocked Elijah for his baldness, and Elijah cursed them, and they were mauled by the lion? Of course he reserved the actual sword for the prophets of Baal.
So you think women should be stoned to death for adultery, and children mauled to death by bears for teasing?



Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on May 30, 2004, 02:32:20 AM
Quote
People can't just run around saying the death penalty is wrong with out coming up with some clear answers to remove the dangers from society.
If the object of the exercise is to protect the rest of society, that can be done just as well by lifetime incarceration as by the death penalty.  

Most of the western world operates perfectly well without the death penalty.

Lifetime imprisonment is inhumane. It is cruel!

Quote
What if they were YOUR children?  Would you still be anti-death penalty?
It's supposed to be one or more of:
protection
punishment
deterent

certainly NOT revenge.
Quote

It's not revenge. It is protection, punishment and a deterent.

In the USA the death penalty is seldom enforced and murders happen too often to mention. Murderers aren't afraid of what may happen to them.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: JudgeNot on May 30, 2004, 05:20:38 PM
Quote
It's not revenge. It is protection...
Amen, His_Child, Amen.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: infotechadviser on May 31, 2004, 03:02:52 PM
So you think women should be stoned to death for adultery, and children mauled to death by bears for teasing?

That is a question that is loaded with an emotion payload. You have to be aware I meant no such thing. You could've asked. Naughty naughty.

My main point is if you start bringing God into the equation, you just might get what you wished for. Meaning, "it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the almighty God". However, He is merciful and faithful to forgive us our sins.

If you say the New Testament nullified the death penalty, you should try reading Jude. The adulterous woman walked. Jesus knows who to let walk. Ourselves, we need a jury of twelve peers. But don't forget: he took the time to elaborate a very nasty bullwhip and walked into the Temple of Solomon and physically whipped those moneychangers right out of that Temple.

(You're not going to say I advocate instituting whipping are you? <g>)


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: ebia on June 01, 2004, 03:56:37 AM
So you think women should be stoned to death for adultery, and children mauled to death by bears for teasing?

That is a question that is loaded with an emotion payload. You have to be aware I meant no such thing. You could've asked. Naughty naughty.
Of course it's a loaded question.  It's a device for pointing out the absurdity of your argument.

If you use the OT laws to support the death penalty for murder, you can use them just as well to support the death penalty for adultery, and either death by bears is an appropriate punishment for teasing or it isnt.




Quote
If you say the New Testament nullified the death penalty, you should try reading Jude. The adulterous woman walked. Jesus knows who to let walk. Ourselves, we need a jury of twelve peers.

The 12 peer decide who is and isn't guilty, not the punishment.  Jesus didn't say she wasn't guilty - he said she was, but shouldn't be stoned.

Do you, or do you not support the death penalty for adultery according to OT laws?


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Gracey on June 01, 2004, 01:32:09 PM
This isn't following anyone else's line of argument, but what if.....

well, what if someone is wrongly convicted? That has happened. The death penalty is pretty final; can't be reversed; at least imprisonment (while it can't be reversed) isn't final (unless the person dies in jail).

We don't have the death penalty, but because I am not entirely sure, I'm glad I wouldn't have to decide about it. I wouldn't want to be on a jury for a trial with the death penalty.

Gracey



Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 02, 2004, 04:19:14 AM
The death penalty is not right. The Bible says we should love one another, this includes murderers. They need forgivness, and learn that God loves them. Granted I know I am one of a few that believe this.
Not only that but, who am I to judge someone else. When I will be judged for judging {insert name} for murder?
The Bible says, Judge ye not, lest ye be judged.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Reba on June 02, 2004, 11:26:32 AM
Dreamweaver,

I will believe you are sincere when you invite some one like Charlie Manson into your life and home. Do you lock your doors? If you do you have judged someone to not be honest. If you do not allow a child molester to babyset  your children you are judging them to be unsafe for your kids.

There is a standard of judgment we as christians and just plain desent people need to use.  I understand the above to be outlandish so are we talking about degrees?

We are to judge a righteous judgment

John 7:24

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
KJV


Hitch is my brother many here know him as rude and a jerk... another brother( Jack) would be accepted here quickly and openly. Because i have known them all my life  ;)  In my view and i am not saying i am righteous Hitch is the MUCH better man then Jack. I could trust Hitch with everything i love  own care about etc.  Jack would say the right words ..... Surface judgments are most often out of line, but i bet Blackeyedpeas can spot a bad guy quickly.


Judge not least ye be judged  

  I can not judge another for  gossip because i gossip which is evil.
I could judge my hubby for cheating ... i have never cheated (and we have been married a million years)

I stole from my mom when i was a kid i do not deal harshly with kids doing the same but work to correct them.

Judging myself keeps me in check  i can in a way hold others to the account as i hold myself.


Some times i ramble  i do hope i have not confused you or  the issue at hand.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on June 02, 2004, 01:15:57 PM
The death penalty is not right. The Bible says we should love one another, this includes murderers. They need forgivness, and learn that God loves them. Granted I know I am one of a few that believe this.
Not only that but, who am I to judge someone else. When I will be judged for judging {insert name} for murder?
The Bible says, Judge ye not, lest ye be judged.

Parents who love their children punish them as necessary.

A friend of mine forgave her husband for adultry. She still loves him. He refused to give up the other woman. So, my friend forgave him again and divorced him and continues to love him (as a friend).

Not letting someone get away with a sin takes more courage and love than letting them live in sin.

Putting someone in prison for life is a terrible and unjust punishment. It punishes the criminal and the society around them.  


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: C C on June 02, 2004, 03:32:24 PM
I don't call it "the death penalty"  I call it self-protection.

And I don't think the Mauling by bears is a good example.   A human prophet got all angry and his feelings hurt and had a temper tantrum and in a moment of passion he used curse words!  Words have power and the effects were unfortunate.  I don't think the example is that kids should die for calling old men "bald head".  I think the example is that our words have power to harm or to hurt.  If everyone, especially people that are walking in the power of God, would notice how their words have power and the effects of their words have on things, people would be lots more careful with their words.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 03, 2004, 01:17:28 AM
Dreamweaver,

I will believe you are sincere when you invite some one like Charlie Manson into your life and home. Do you lock your doors? If you do you have judged someone to not be honest. If you do not allow a child molester to babyset  your children you are judging them to be unsafe for your kids.

There is a standard of judgment we as christians and just plain desent people need to use.  I understand the above to be outlandish so are we talking about degrees?

We are to judge a righteous judgment

John 7:24

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
KJV


Hitch is my brother many here know him as rude and a jerk... another brother( Jack) would be accepted here quickly and openly. Because i have known them all my life  ;)  In my view and i am not saying i am righteous Hitch is the MUCH better man then Jack. I could trust Hitch with everything i love  own care about etc.  Jack would say the right words ..... Surface judgments are most often out of line, but i bet Blackeyedpeas can spot a bad guy quickly.


Judge not least ye be judged  

  I can not judge another for  gossip because i gossip which is evil.
I could judge my hubby for cheating ... i have never cheated (and we have been married a million years)

I stole from my mom when i was a kid i do not deal harshly with kids doing the same but work to correct them.

Judging myself keeps me in check  i can in a way hold others to the account as i hold myself.


Some times i ramble  i do hope i have not confused you or  the issue at hand.
My doors are open right now, I don't lock them. Where as you may live in the city, I live in the country. All my neighbors have their doors unlocked. If some one wants to steal from me, that fine I hope they need it. The thing though is that all my neighbors watch each others homes when we aren't home. And the cops would be called in a few moments after that person broke in.
No I wouldn't allow a child molester to babysit, my children. My kids are full grown.  ;D
I would how ever, allow a child molester to sit and talk with me. I would try and teach them the meaning of the word from God. Show them what Gods loves means to me, and pray for them.
I have spoken with murderers, and have gotten 1 to come to the Lord. He now is the assitance Pastor in prison.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: C C on June 03, 2004, 01:42:18 PM
Dreamweaver!   ;D

A woman after my own heart??????  I always get myself in a world of trouble for not enough judgeing.  It's not like I'm not discerning.  I know full well the trouble and danger I put myself into when I associate with folks who have clearly in the past made BIG BIG BIG mistakes.  But I don't give up hope for them to make changes.  There's times though when it  can get dangerous, and there's lots of folks out there that we are soooo worried about because they're so naive and defenseless  among hateful dangerous people who would love to hurt and harm and destroy.  We never let Satan just have his way without stopping him.  And so we shouldn't let people that are out to hurt and harm and destroy have their way.  They must be stopped.   ;D  I ramble too.  Anyway, the Bible says, "judge not" but it doesn't say "discern not".  It says to be WISE as SERPANTS and it says that for a reason.  But it also says be harmless as doves and it says that for a reason.  For by what measure you judge others, God will also judge you.  So, this means that on judgement day, all the legalists are going to come up short on the glory of God.  It's not like they're not saved, but when it comes time for God to hand out prizes, the legalists are going to look at their prize and say, "is this all I get????"  And the Lord will have to tell them, "Well, you were such a harsh judge, that I have to judge you harshly.  His Words wont pass away"   ;D  

One of my favorite radio pastors says that legalist are like roaches.   ;D  I agree!  Legalists  :P  are like roaches.   8)  You can't get rid of them.

Like I said, I think the death penalty is self-protection.  There's times when Christ requires us to turn the other cheeck and there's times when Christ requires us to protect our loved ones.  So, punishment for crimes requires both justice and mercy which requires discernment, wisdom, love and none of that can be gotten if there's anger and resentment and the spirit of revenge.  AND YET peace requires punishment for crimes and discipline and peace REQUIRES RIGHTEOUS ANGER.  There are consequences for our actions.  And the Bible doesn't say if a person is out raping and butchering children we should have to feed them and house them the rest of their lives.  Unless we decide to be our brother's keeper.  I strongly believe that society MUST protect itself as a society.  So, it's just as hard a question for me, as many other questions.  I don't think any certain circumstance is exactly the same as the next.  But I do believe that "the death penalty" is really about self-protection.

Peace


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Reba on June 03, 2004, 02:13:28 PM
My doors are open right now, I don't lock them. Where as you may live in the city, I live in the country. All my neighbors have their doors unlocked. If some one wants to steal from me, that fine I hope they need it. The thing though is that all my neighbors watch each others homes when we aren't home. And the cops would be called in a few moments after that person broke in.
No I wouldn't allow a child molester to babysit, my children. My kids are full grown.  ;D
I would how ever, allow a child molester to sit and talk with me. I would try and teach them the meaning of the word from God. Show them what Gods loves means to me, and pray for them.
I have spoken with murderers, and have gotten 1 to come to the Lord. He now is the assitance Pastor in prison.

I have spoken with murderers, and have gotten 1 to come to the Lord. He now is the assitance Pastor in prison.

James 5:20

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV

Wonderfull Dreamweaver!



Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 03, 2004, 03:40:25 PM
Dreamweaver!   ;D

A woman after my own heart??????  I always get myself in a world of trouble for not enough judgeing.  It's not like I'm not discerning.  I know full well the trouble and danger I put myself into when I associate with folks who have clearly in the past made BIG BIG BIG mistakes.  But I don't give up hope for them to make changes.  There's times though when it  can get dangerous, and there's lots of folks out there that we are soooo worried about because they're so naive and defenseless  among hateful dangerous people who would love to hurt and harm and destroy.  We never let Satan just have his way without stopping him.  And so we shouldn't let people that are out to hurt and harm and destroy have their way.  They must be stopped.   ;D  I ramble too.  Anyway, the Bible says, "judge not" but it doesn't say "discern not".  It says to be WISE as SERPANTS and it says that for a reason.  But it also says be harmless as doves and it says that for a reason.  For by what measure you judge others, God will also judge you.  So, this means that on judgement day, all the legalists are going to come up short on the glory of God.  It's not like they're not saved, but when it comes time for God to hand out prizes, the legalists are going to look at their prize and say, "is this all I get????"  And the Lord will have to tell them, "Well, you were such a harsh judge, that I have to judge you harshly.  His Words wont pass away"   ;D  

One of my favorite radio pastors says that legalist are like roaches.   ;D  I agree!  Legalists  :P  are like roaches.   8)  You can't get rid of them.

Like I said, I think the death penalty is self-protection.  There's times when Christ requires us to turn the other cheeck and there's times when Christ requires us to protect our loved ones.  So, punishment for crimes requires both justice and mercy which requires discernment, wisdom, love and none of that can be gotten if there's anger and resentment and the spirit of revenge.  AND YET peace requires punishment for crimes and discipline and peace REQUIRES RIGHTEOUS ANGER.  There are consequences for our actions.  And the Bible doesn't say if a person is out raping and butchering children we should have to feed them and house them the rest of their lives.  Unless we decide to be our brother's keeper.  I strongly believe that society MUST protect itself as a society.  So, it's just as hard a question for me, as many other questions.  I don't think any certain circumstance is exactly the same as the next.  But I do believe that "the death penalty" is really about self-protection.

Peace

Hmmmm.... I'm a guy not a gal.  :-[


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Reba on June 03, 2004, 03:52:15 PM
It's the nick ...

Dreamweaver  Dreamweaver  

The air smells of  heather and lavender... i see inside the cottage, dust particals dancing in the sunlight shinning throught the open window  over her  simple loom a maid weaving the linnen with her hands while her heart is pondering the woven fabrics of her life...

Sorry   :-X  


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 04, 2004, 12:10:43 AM
The man I converted while serving time for murder? He is the man that murdered my wife, of 17 years. I have forgiven him, I know some of you will not understand. My wife is now with the Lord, thats all that counts.
I can forgive, I haven't forgotten, as I can't forget. You see, I still love my wife. I know I will see her again. Thats all that counts. I myself, didn't do this for any reward, I did it because, it is right.

Oh my nick........ is after the song by Gary Wright .... "DreamWeaver"


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Reba on June 04, 2004, 12:41:43 AM
The man I converted while serving time for murder? He is the man that murdered my wife, of 17 years. I have forgiven him, I know some of you will not understand. My wife is now with the Lord, thats all that counts.
I can forgive, I haven't forgotten, as I can't forget. You see, I still love my wife. I know I will see her again. Thats all that counts. I myself, didn't do this for any reward, I did it because, it is right.

Oh my nick........ is after the song by Gary Wright .... "DreamWeaver"

Luke 6:35-36
5 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
KJV


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: sincereheart on June 06, 2004, 06:21:44 AM
The man I converted while serving time for murder? He is the man that murdered my wife, of 17 years. I have forgiven him, I know some of you will not understand. My wife is now with the Lord, thats all that counts.
I can forgive, I haven't forgotten, as I can't forget. You see, I still love my wife. I know I will see her again. Thats all that counts. I myself, didn't do this for any reward, I did it because, it is right.


WOW! I'm humbled.  :'(


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: BlackmanX on June 06, 2004, 04:49:46 PM

The  death  penalty is  wrong.  Many  innocent  men get executed  all the time.  Evidence can be  fabricated  or tempered with.  Witnesses  may lie.  False accusations can and do  happen.
Those  things  can  be fixed  if  and when brave  men step  into the light of  day  and  speak  the  truth.......but  none of that matters  if  the  innocent  man  is  already  six  feet  under.   So, yes.  the death  penalty  is  wrong.   peace.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shylynne on June 06, 2004, 06:07:18 PM
God so loved the [unrighteous, fornicators, wicked, covetous, malicious; envious, murderers, quarrelers, deceivers, mischievous; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful] He gave His only Son that that we all might live.  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death - Rom 1:32
The death penalty sin demands, was paid for at the cross.
A child of God should not condemn  a man or woman to a fate, according to God`s judgement we are all no less worthy of.


1Jo 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 07, 2004, 01:36:24 AM
The man I converted while serving time for murder? He is the man that murdered my wife, of 17 years. I have forgiven him, I know some of you will not understand. My wife is now with the Lord, thats all that counts.
I can forgive, I haven't forgotten, as I can't forget. You see, I still love my wife. I know I will see her again. Thats all that counts. I myself, didn't do this for any reward, I did it because, it is right.

Oh my nick........ is after the song by Gary Wright .... "DreamWeaver"

Luke 6:35-36
5 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
KJV
Thanks Reba, I need that. I thought I could let it out but, I still was upset, that I cried almost all night. Sorry I didn't answer you before, I was going to answer 2Bombs when I heard of former Pres. Reagans death. I just shut everything down.  :'(
I still didn't do it for a reward. I did it because it is right.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: ollie on June 07, 2004, 07:19:01 PM
Quote
Please don't confuse murder with killing.
There is a big difference between ending the life of a murderer and ending the life of an innocent baby.
Comparing the two is comparing oranges and apples.
"They are both fruit."

But from different trees.

Quote
What do you think the punishment should be for a murderer?
"Surely that's in the hands of God."

Did His hands handle it?


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 14, 2004, 05:05:39 PM
When someone is executed or the death penalty applied if you will, you remove that person's last chance to accept Christ.  That is not something I will ever do or condone.

Let them rot in a cell with no access to sunlight, exercise, parole, or even TV and pizza if you want - but don't kill them.  Give them a Bible and verbal access to teachers and nothing else if you want - but don't kill them.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 14, 2004, 05:32:19 PM
Suppose someone comes over to your house and hacks your wife or your husband and kids to death with a a sharp implement.  

Then would it be justice for you to have to house him, even if in a small hole his entire life?

What I don't get is this idea that if someone comes over and hacks someone to death or rapes anyone and has them for dinner, that we should have to house them.  Give that person a place to stay.  That doesn't sound like justice to me.
I will answer you statement in parts.
Suppose someone comes over to your house and hacks your wife or your husband and kids to death with a a sharp implement.
Forgivness is totally in Gods hands. I have been there, I know. I have forgiven him, and helped him towards God. I remember, and at times it is painful but, the hand of God lifts my sorrow, and shows his mercy with his helping hands.

Then would it be justice for you to have to house him, even if in a small hole his entire life?
Yes it is justice, least for me. Two wrongs do not, make a right.

What I don't get is this idea that if someone comes over and hacks someone to death or rapes anyone and has them for dinner, that we should have to house them.  Give that person a place to stay.  That doesn't sound like justice to me.
It is justice, justice is again, in the hands of God. We, the human race, do not have the right to take a life, except in time of war. The bible accepts war, not taking a life. The Bible says, turn the other cheek. This is what I have done, turn the other cheek.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Reba on June 14, 2004, 06:53:04 PM
When someone is executed or the death penalty applied if you will, you remove that person's last chance to accept Christ.  That is not something I will ever do or condone.

Let them rot in a cell with no access to sunlight, exercise, parole, or even TV and pizza if you want - but don't kill them.  Give them a Bible and verbal access to teachers and nothing else if you want - but don't kill them.
Salvation is not by chance.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 14, 2004, 07:58:16 PM
Suppose someone comes over to your house and hacks your wife or your husband and kids to death with a a sharp implement.  

Then would it be justice for you to have to house him, even if in a small hole his entire life?

What I don't get is this idea that if someone comes over and hacks someone to death or rapes anyone and has them for dinner, that we should have to house them.  Give that person a place to stay.  That doesn't sound like justice to me.

I understand the issue one faces when it gets personal and I am not saying that I know I would be strong enough to hold to my convictions in such a case but I hope so.  I don't think ones convictions should be based on emotions.

I was in the Navy for 6 years and it pains me to think that most prisoners have it better off than the military does.  So the cost to house prisoners the way I would do it would cost alot less than the entire prison system does today though trust me.  :)


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 14, 2004, 08:02:05 PM
When someone is executed or the death penalty applied if you will, you remove that person's last chance to accept Christ.  That is not something I will ever do or condone.

Let them rot in a cell with no access to sunlight, exercise, parole, or even TV and pizza if you want - but don't kill them.  Give them a Bible and verbal access to teachers and nothing else if you want - but don't kill them.
Salvation is not by chance.

true but it is not predetermined either.  Salvation is partly due to a choice made by each of us or else it makes no sense at all.  If we truly love even our enemies then we have no right to tell them they have had their last opportunity to respond to God's grace and choose Christ.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Krakenfrst on June 15, 2004, 02:51:34 AM
Dear Fellow Christians,

There really should be no debate on this issue.  The question is one of fundamentals and it is the reason why MOST Christians are in favor of a death penalty while at the same time MOST Christians would concede that if the condemned person is brought to a saving knowledge of Christ during the interim between being sentenced and executed that person would be no less entitled to the fullness of God's grace.  First of all we have to realize that we are in effect ALL sentenced to death and indeed we will all die at some point.  If however by our actions or otherwise we die sooner rather than later, then even so we are all still under the same death sentence because we live in a sinful world that is overrun by this fatal disease that afflicts us all.  SIN!  We know what the wages of sin are, but why do we continue to sin?  Even so the Bible makes it clear that some sins lead to death in the flesh more readily than others.  One such sin is that of being one who takes an innocent life.  That person, even if he is saved afteward is usually resigned to the fact that he must forfeit his life prematurely on this earth for what he has done, but at the same time he can have reassurance, provided he believes upon the Lord, that in eternity his sins are forgiven.  I tell you the truth that if that person is truly saved he believes ever so much that he is justly going to die at the hands of the executioner, while at the same time he commits his eternal judgement to Christ who after all paid the ultimate price for us all by his own death.  There is an enormous difference between the death of one so perfect and the death of a sinner and we are in no position to judge the eternal condition of anyone who claims to be commited to Christ even though we are entitled to judge and merit justice according to the law on earth.  In the first place the death of Christ freed us from the fear of the second death of eternal separation from God and its accompanying torments that also come as a result of breaking God's law in this life, but that belief has in no way released us from the brief and perhaps untimely, just or unjust or even painful reality of death in this life regardless of our eternal position in Christ.  For it is also written that it is appointed to everyone a time to die and we should focus on the fact that it is the ressurection of Christ that gives us hope for eternal life while it is the death Christ that provides for our underserved forgiveness and satisfaction for our sins in this life that otherwise would prevent us from ever entering into the presence of God.  Even so, we should endeavor not to sin in this life as we should emulate Christ as much as we are able.  But do not fool yourseleves into thinking it is OK to sin, for God's eternal blessings and rewards are not bestowed upon the sinner but rather the saint who is in Christ.  That is how God sees us through Christ.  And it is in that respect that we can even faithfully die with his name upon our lips and that is also why it is said that God rejoices in the death of His saints, those who remain faithful to Jesus Christ, who do not fear death, who overcome by the word of their testimony.  That my friend holds true for us all, and is no less expected even of those on death row for something they did previously in this life for in that regard we are in equal standing before God.

Kraken


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on June 15, 2004, 04:40:48 AM
When someone is executed or the death penalty applied if you will, you remove that person's last chance to accept Christ.  That is not something I will ever do or condone.

If you put a murderer to death, you do remove his chances of accepting Christ.
However, if he gets released or escapes from prison, he will be able to murder again (or he could murder someone in the prision.)
If he takes the life of an unbeliever, then they have no chance of accepting Christ. He may take the lives of several unbelievers.
A lot of people could wind up never having the chance to hear the Gospel all because a murderer wasn't put to death.

Quote
Let them rot in a cell with no access to sunlight, exercise, parole, or even TV and pizza if you want - but don't kill them.  Give them a Bible and verbal access to teachers and nothing else if you want - but don't kill them.

First off, that is cruel!
Second, what if they don't want to hear the Gospel? You can't force someone to accept Christ. By giving them nothing but a Bible you are forcing Christ on them.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 15, 2004, 08:17:02 AM

Quote
Quote
When someone is executed or the death penalty applied if you will, you remove that person's last chance to accept Christ.  That is not something I will ever do or condone.

If you put a murderer to death, you do remove his chances of accepting Christ.
However, if he gets released or escapes from prison, he will be able to murder again (or he could murder someone in the prision.)
If he takes the life of an unbeliever, then they have no chance of accepting Christ. He may take the lives of several unbelievers.
A lot of people could wind up never having the chance to hear the Gospel all because a murderer wasn't put to death.

You cannot predict the future so you cannot base how you treat people by how the future might unfold.  But if prisons were run strictly enough there would be no chance for escape and with no parole there would danger from those convicted of the more serious crimes.

Quote
Quote
Let them rot in a cell with no access to sunlight, exercise, parole, or even TV and pizza if you want - but don't kill them.  Give them a Bible and verbal access to teachers and nothing else if you want - but don't kill them.

First off, that is cruel!

I was speaking in hyperbole - you can tell that because I threw in the sarcasm about TV and pizza.  Though the prisons I would put in place would be uncomfortable (providing only the barest minimum of necessities to live) they would hardly be cruel - certainly not as cruel as killing someone and removing their last chance to accept Christ and His message.  

Quote
Second, what if they don't want to hear the Gospel? You can't force someone to accept Christ. By giving them nothing but a Bible you are forcing Christ on them.

If they don't want to accept Christ now, then they don't have to but that doesn't mean they won't want to accept Him in the future.  I am not forcing Christ on them, I am merely providing what they need to discover Him.  I am not advocating brainwashing.  I am just saying that materials we deem as good for them (such as access to the Bible) will be provided, and items that are not needed for survival (such as Sport Illustrated) will not be provided and further more, items that would be bad for them (such as Hustler magazine) would not be provided.  They would get all they NEEDED and nothing more except int he areas where they might have an opportunity to grow spiritually.  That is hardly cruel.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Heidi on June 15, 2004, 09:22:11 AM
Jesus said that we are to render to Caesar what's caesar's and render to God what is God's. He tells us as Christians to turn the other cheek. And I, as a Christian, do. But if the head of state or any government turned the other cheek when our country is attacked, he is making that decision for the people for whom he is responsible. He is then accountable for their deaths instead of allowing them to make their own decisions about their response to evil. When a government deems that a person is a danger to society and more lives would be saved by his death, then I believe the death penalty is instituted for the best interests of the public. Here, motive is the key. Jesus talks about what is in our hearts which is the core of his teaching. The death penalty is not coming out of malice or hatred but out of what is beneficial to our soceity. This is why I think that only serial killers or mass murderers should be executed. Even though a person who's been convicted of only one murder has not allowed his victim a second chance, i think we need to allow a one-time convicted murderer a second chance.  


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 15, 2004, 03:01:14 PM

Quote
Jesus said that we are to render to Caesar what's caesar's and render to God what is God's.

You have a lot more work to do before you can prove that the killing of criminals is properly to be claimed by the government as something we owe to them.

Quote
He tells us as Christians to turn the other cheek. And I, as a Christian, do. But if the head of state or any government turned the other cheek when our country is attacked, he is making that decision for the people for whom he is responsible. He is then accountable for their deaths instead of allowing them to make their own decisions about their response to evil.

If you think the people of any country even one that is semi-democratic like our own ever make their own decisions about response to evil you are seriously naive.  The government always makes those decisions for us.

Quote
When a government deems that a person is a danger to society and more lives would be saved by his death, then I believe the death penalty is instituted for the best interests of the public.

My point is not that the government should turn a blind eye but that there is fully sufficient alternatives to capital punishment that keep the country safe while at the same time not ending the persons life.

Quote
Here, motive is the key. Jesus talks about what is in our hearts which is the core of his teaching. The death penalty is not coming out of malice or hatred but out of what is beneficial to our soceity. This is why I think that only serial killers or mass murderers should be executed. Even though a person who's been convicted of only one murder has not allowed his victim a second chance, i think we need to allow a one-time convicted murderer a second chance.  

If there was clear evidence of a danger to the country that could not be addressed through tightened security I would agree with you but that is not the case.  I don't doubbt your motives but there are a large number of people in this country who view capital punishment as justice and vengance and that is wrong.  The point is that regardless of our motives there is a alternative to captial punishement which we are ignoring and that is simple life long imprisonment with a minimum of frills.  We have been led byt the sociologists and other liberals to believe that this is unworkable and cruel but I do not accept that evaluation - certainly not when compared to the ending of someones life.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on June 16, 2004, 12:43:19 AM

The death penalty isn't about protection - lifelong incarceration achieves that just as well.  The death penalty is about vengance, and vengance isn't ours to give out.
Bingo, it is the Lord that hands out vengance. Great posted ebia, thats what everyone wanted to know about me. Is why I didn't want the death penalty. Its not mine to ask for or, to request.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Heidi on June 16, 2004, 10:37:11 AM
Michael, you completely misunderstood what I was saying, as usual. When Jesus said to render to Caesar what is Caesar's he NEVER justified Caesar's decisions, nor did he not justify them. He only wanted us to submit to earthly authorities and render what belongs to the Stae, as the state's business and what belongs to God, as God's business.

I never said that the government doesn't make the decisions.! I said the exact opposite. The government HAS to make the deicisions for our country but that EACH one of us will decide how we personally we will respond to evil. No one can force me to kill someone. If the government wants to go to war, then it can. But each of us can respond to evil in the way that we think is best. But if a president takes it upon himself to turn the other cheek and risk the slaughter of his countrymen, he is then taking the decision to turn the other cheek out of the hands of each individual person. Some people don't want to turn the other cheek and the president is risking their lives for a decision that should be a personal one. Therefore, the best course for a president is the one that will save the most lives in the end because that is his responsibility.

God's vengeance is sometimes manifested through human action as in the OT. If we had simply stood back and let Hitler take over Europe, exterminate the Jewish race and eventually conquer America, what would that have accomplished? Sometimes passivity is the greater evil.

Ted Bundy was incarcerated and escaped to kill many more women. If all criminals are incarcerated then eventually the prisons will not be able to hold them all and many more will eventually escape. Some people to use the death penalty for vengeance. I see it as a protection of society.



Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 16, 2004, 01:50:55 PM

Quote
Michael, you completely misunderstood what I was saying, as usual. When Jesus said to render to Caesar what is Caesar's he NEVER justified Caesar's decisions, nor did he not justify them. He only wanted us to submit to earthly authorities and render what belongs to the Stae, as the state's business and what belongs to God, as God's business.

I may have misunderstood you in the past but I don't think I did this time.  My point was that even though we are told to submit to earthly authorities as you point out, He did not intend for us to submit unconditionally.  That is why I said you had to do more of a proof to get me to accept that capital punishment was something we need to sumbit to or render unto the government.  We are still responsible for our own actions and choices and even the responsible for the support we put behind policies of our government.  That is why those soldier who say they were just following orders (whether in Germany or in Vietnam at Muy Li or recently in the US Army in Iraq torturing captive soldiers) have no real excuse even within their own chain of command on earth.

If this was a discussion of the govenrment requiring every second child conceived having to be aborted would you still claim we had to render unto caesar?  I hope not.  The issue of capital punishment is one which we are free (actually duty bound in my opinion) to fight and otherwise try to influence the government over.

I understand your concern over pacificism during war as possibly greater evil than the killing of innocents (which is all the soldiers over there are for the most part) on the other side of the battle lines, but I do not share that view.  Take it from someone who served six years in the US Navy at the end of the Vietnam conflict, war is a dangerous thing, not just for our physical well being but for our morality as well.

As Nietzsche said He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on June 16, 2004, 02:35:54 PM
Life long imprisonment is cruel to the criminal and to the tax payers who will have to support that criminal.

Many taxpayers, like myself, are barely making ends meet for our own families and you want us to provide room and board for someone because they committed murder?

Ideally one would not be able to escape from prison. However, we don't live in an ideal world (if we did there would be no reason for prisons at all) therefore, criminals (including murderers) escape and commit the same crimes again.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: michael_legna on June 16, 2004, 02:47:46 PM
Life long imprisonment is cruel to the criminal and to the tax payers who will have to support that criminal.

Many taxpayers, like myself, are barely making ends meet for our own families and you want us to provide room and board for someone because they committed murder?

Ideally one would not be able to escape from prison. However, we don't live in an ideal world (if we did there would be no reason for prisons at all) therefore, criminals (including murderers) escape and commit the same crimes again.

I am not recommending the prison system as it exists today.  The prison system could be run cheaper and more securily than today by simply warehousing the prisoners who would never get out.  It is done in foreign countries all the time.

As for it being cruel - yes it would be crueler than today's prisons, but less cruel than capital punishment - which removes that person's last chance to accept Christ.  Through capital punishment you are confining that person's soul to a much nastier place than the prison cell I am envisioning for a lot longer period of time.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on June 16, 2004, 02:52:06 PM
As long as that prison has windows or doors, the prisoner can find a way to escape.

As long as that person is in prison, the overburdened taxpayers will be punished as well.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: BlackmanX on June 19, 2004, 02:14:48 PM
wrong.   totally wrong.  absolutely  wrong.  


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: JudgeNot on June 19, 2004, 07:06:08 PM
right.  totally right.  absolutely right.
 


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: His_child on June 20, 2004, 01:18:05 AM
As long as that prison has windows or doors, the prisoner can find a way to escape.

As long as that person is in prison, the overburdened taxpayers will be punished as well.
So it comes down to killing people to save money?  Very Christlike.

So it comes down to honest, hard working people not being able to provide a home for their families because they are paying for a murderer to have free room and board.
Very Christlike.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: child_of_God_2 on August 06, 2004, 12:32:25 AM
This isn't following anyone else's line of argument, but what if.....

well, what if someone is wrongly convicted? That has happened. The death penalty is pretty final; can't be reversed; at least imprisonment (while it can't be reversed) isn't final (unless the person dies in jail).

We don't have the death penalty, but because I am not entirely sure, I'm glad I wouldn't have to decide about it. I wouldn't want to be on a jury for a trial with the death penalty.

Gracey


Gracey,
I totally agree with you. I know that if I was on a jury and sentenced a person to death and after he/she was put to death found out the person was innocent, I couldn't live with myself. Knowing I had something to do with the death of an innocent person would always be on my mind. I also think that as long as the person is alive there is still hope that he/she will get saved. I am a strong believer in the battles of the mind. If it were someone in my family that got killed, I would want the person to spend the rest of his/her life in prison without the possibility of parole, because the person would have to think about what he/she did and know that there is no chance of EVER seeing the other side of the fence  or have freedom again. Who knows, the person may become roommates with someone called "Bubba" in there. lol


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on August 06, 2004, 01:08:16 AM
To all of you thinking that the death penatly is right, I disagree. I will always disagree with y'all.
The death penalty is murder. What does the Bible say about murder.........
Exodus 20:13  God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill"
Galatians 5:19-21 "now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Kristi Ann on August 06, 2004, 01:16:11 AM
AMEN!! DreamWeaver!!!!  ;D


Remember all we are Not to Judge anyone at all!!!!!


Matthew 7:1-5

1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Holy Bible -- King James Version



God Said it I believe it DONE!!!!!!


Blessings,   \o/


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Allinall on August 10, 2004, 11:40:53 AM
Hmmmmm...God said not to kill.  Really?  What did He say?

Quote
Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 20:13

Yet another wonderful translational problem.  The word translated kill is ratsach, which means...

Quote
1) to murder, slay, kill

a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1) premeditated

2) accidental

3) as avenger

4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be slain

c) (Piel)

1) to murder, assassinate

2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

d) (Pual) to be killed


Here's the problem.  We've seen it translated kill and therefore take it to mean the killing is never God's plan.  In so doing, we neglect God's plan for eradicating the Promised Land of it's former inhabitants (noting of course that this was God's chosen form of judgment for those peoples) via the sword.  The Israelites were to kill everybody.  We forget that.

When God established His Law with His people, it was a tool by which they could see the depth of their sin.  But that Law also addressed social and political issues.  In this case, and reflected throughout history, the death penalty was enacted, and to be enacted in the form of governmental law.  For the Hebrews, God said...

Quote
Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 24:17

and

Whoever kills an animal shall make it good, and whoever kills a person shall be put to death.

But, you say, we are not under the Law but under grace.  Yup!  We are not under condemnation, but grace.  So all governments world wide should toss out the law books because we aren't under them anymore.  Right?

Can you imagine the chaos?  That's not what is meant by not being under the Law.  If I murder someone, I'm still guilty of sin.  I'm simply not condemned by God.  I'm chastened.  And depending on which state I'm in, will be chastened for the rest of my life in prison, or for a few years until I'm executed.  Murder is still sin with governmental consequences for that sin.


Title: Re:death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Allinall on August 10, 2004, 12:00:57 PM
AMEN!! DreamWeaver!!!!  ;D


Remember all we are Not to Judge anyone at all!!!!!


Matthew 7:1-5

1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Holy Bible -- King James Version



God Said it I believe it DONE!!!!!!


Blessings,   \o/

Hmmmm...then Paul disobeyed Jesus and commanded us to do likewise...

Quote
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Paul here pronounces and commands the execution of his judgment.  Get rid of the evil person!  Kick him out!  And why?  To restore him.  Ya know what?  It worked!  They obeyed Paul, and the sinful brother repented and came back...only they wouldn't let him back in!  So Paul writes them in 2 Corinthians to let the fellow back in.  The first recorded instance of church discipline, predicated by believers judging one another and acting upon it accordingly.

But this goes in direct disobedience to what Jesus said!  Right?  Actually, wrong.  Jesus point was that we need not go around pronouncing judgments on our brothers sinful viewing habits when we have 6 affairs currently happening.  Or pronouncing judgment on our sisters gossiping when we have slandered good men out of jobs and good report.   We are to first take the telephone pole out of our eyes...not so that we can't help or judge our brother ever.  NO!!  Not what He says.  He says...

Quote
Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

If my brother's speck is a sin, and I'm not to judge it as one, then how am I to help him it get rid of it as Jesus says here?  You miss the point.  Judgment is expected, so long as it is right.  How does one make his judgment right?  Simple.  He let's God show him what's right via His Word.  "Thou shalt not commit adultery".  If my brother is committing adultery, he's gotta telephone pole in his eye, and I need to judge that, according to God's view of that sin, and restore that brother by helping him in the spirit of meekness because I'm no better than he is.

 :)


Title: Re: death penalty right or wrong?
Post by: Shammu on July 01, 2016, 12:14:55 AM
I just finished reading this thread, I'm glad Lizzie is by my side. This thread is very personal to me in ways most people would never understand. Lizzie knew my late wife, they were friends. All these years later, I stand with what I said and believe.

Edited to add: I should say Sue, since we have been married she likes me to use her middle name.