ChristiansUnite Forums

Every Law Keeper and Sabbath Keeper I know does NOT need a license to sin, they sin more than most.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9


And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5


Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3:24


Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN." (Galatians 2:21)

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" (Philippians 3:7 9)

Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Mat 19:16-17  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
   
Mar 10:17-19  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mat 5:19-29  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1John 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Luke 18:18-22  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

THE DANGERS OF LEGALISM



EVERY FEW DAYS I receive letters and tracts from men  trying  to persuade  me  that, though we are free in Christ, we are yet under the bondage of the law. Some of these are good men, men who believe and preach the gospel of God’s free grace in Christ. But their error in this point is most serious and grievous.

l. If you seek to be justified by the law, you will surely perish. It is written: ‘By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight.’

2. If you seek sanctification or seek to be-come more holy by obedience to the law, you will become self-righteous. Self- righteous-ness is neither more nor less than your own righteousness. It is a supposed righteous-ness performed by you. It is that proud foolishness of heart which supposes that you are more holy than others.

3. If you make the law your rule of life, you will lose the joy of serving Christ. The joy of Christian service is the fact that it is free, unconstrained and spontaneous. It is motivated by love. But when you make the law of God a rule of life the motive becomes fear or desire for reward and all joy is destroyed.

4. If you seek assurance by obeying the law, you will become despondent and fearful. The old Puritans, sound as they were in many points, could never gain any comforting assurance and their congregations were never allowed to enjoy any because they sought it on a legal basis. Some were driven to such despondency by legal fear that they had to be locked away in asylums to keep them from committing suicide. The law breeds fear. You cannot obey it. It can never comfort anyone except a proud, self-right-eous man who does not understand it.

5. If you seek acceptance before God in any measure whatsoever upon the basis of the law, you will never be accepted at all. Christ alone is our acceptance before God. He is all our righteousness, all our sanctification, all our holiness, all our redemption and all our peace. To add anything to his finished work is to make his work vain and useless. Christ will be all, or he will be nothing.


—Don Fortner

How True

Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


I Romans 2:14-15... 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Martin Luther understood.... I fear that after our time the right handling of the Law will become a lost are. Even now, although we continually explain the seperate functions of the Law and the Gospel,we have those among us who do not understand how the Law should be used. What will it be like when we are dead and gone?

his explained elswhere..


As long as a person is not a murderer, adulterer, thief, he would swear that he is righteous. How is God going to humble such a person except by Law. The Law is the hammer of death, the thunder of hell and the thunder of God's wrath to bring downthe proud and shameless hypocrites. When the Law was instituted on Mount Sinai it was accompanied by lightning, by storms, by the sound of trumpets, to tear to pieces that monster called self righteousness. As long as a person thinks he is right he is going to be incomprehensibly proud and presumptuous. He is going to hate God, despise His grace and mercy, and ignore the promises in Christ. The Gospel of free forgiveness of sins through Christ will never appeal to the self-righteous. This monster of self-righteousness, this stiff necked beast, needs a big axe. And that is what the Law is, a big axe. Accordingly the proper use and function of the Law is to threaten until the conscience is scared stiff

You don't hear preaching like that in the Christianity light churches of today.

A puritan author Samuel Bolton said it best...

The Law sends us to the Gospel, that we may be justified, and the Gospel sends us to the law again to inquire what is our duty in being justified.

God bless.

(http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMImages/dict22.jpg)

Read it for FREE online

http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMstudies/DictGospel/DictofGospel.htm  
 
 
"JUSTIFICATION"
 

JUSTIFICATION: means: To Reckon, or To Declare One Righteous.

The Greek word for "Justify" is actually the same Greek word which is translated "righteousness" in Romans 3:21 & 22. Therefore to "JUSTIFY" means: To "Righteous-ify" or; To Reckon One Righteous.

NOTE: This does not mean that the Believer is made righteous as far as his practical life is concerned. It means that God declares him to be righteous. Remember, the righteousness given to a Believer is not handed to him, but is put to his account. You are not made as righteous as Jesus Christ, you are credited as having His righteousness. It is on this basis that God declares you righteous.

WHO DOES GOD DECLARE RIGHTEOUS, AND WHY; AND HOW CAN A HOLY GOD DO THIS?

Job, in Job 9:1,2, and his friend Bildad were among the first to ask this question in Job 25:4:

"HOW THEN CAN MAN BE JUSTIFIED WITH GOD? OR HOW CAN HE BE CLEAN THAT IS BORN OF A WOMAN?"

Now finally in the gospel given to Paul, the answer is made known, by Romans 3:28:

"THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW"

Remember our previous two word studies. We understand from the word "Impute" that God takes His righteousness and puts it to the account of all who believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore even though I am a sinner (as Romans 3:23 clearly states), the moment I believe, God credits His righteousness to me and then declares me righteous. This is "Justification".

Romans 8:33 Says we are Justified by God. - He is the Source.

Romans 5:9 Says we are Justified by Blood. - Christ’s blood is the Basis.

Romans 3:24 Says we are Justified by Grace. -This is the Means

Romans 5:1 Says we are Justified by Faith. - Here is the Appropriation.

Romans 4:25 Says we are Justified by the Resurrection of Christ. - This is the Guarantee

"JUSTIFICATION" IS A LEGAL TERM.

"Justification" speaks of a favorable verdict from God which is pronounced the moment a person believes in Christ. The unfavorable verdict is "damnation", which is already upon us and is sealed at death for those neglecting to believe in Christ. The final sentence will come at the future "Great White Throne Judgment Of God" spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15.

Courtrooms are always very frightening, especially if it is you who is going up before the judge. As we think about the term "Justification", the scene is in the courtroom of God's Justice. God is the Judge. His righteousness is the standard. The time of this hearing is our lifetime (not after we die).

There we stand before the HIGH AND HOLY JUDGEMENT BAR OF GOD; and we stand there knowing full well that we fall far short of His standard of holiness: we know we are sinners; and we know we're guilty! Yet if we will only believe in what Jesus Christ accomplished for us on the Cross, His righteousness will be put to our account; and when God sounds His verdict, he will declare the believer "RIGHTEOUS"!

 

PRACTICAL POINT:
The practical application of this doctrine could not be better put than in Romans 8:33:

 

"WHO SHALL LAY ANYTHING TO THE CHARGE OF GOD'S ELECT? IT IS GOD THAT JUSTIFIETH."

There is no sin that can condemn a Justified person to hell. No person; not yourself; not even the Devil can charge you with anything once God declares you righteous. This was Paul's reasoning after making the statement in Romans 8:31;

"IF GOD BE FOR US, WHO CAN BE AGAINST US?"

     A4C,

    Amen to that last post brother, Amen 8) We're not just pardoned criminals but have been declared Righteous by God Himself, what a unmerited gift of Grace. I settle for pardoned criminal but God in His Grace and Mercy has declared us Righteous in Christ, justified, being Sanctified, to be Glorified, and he guarenteed it! Awesome isn't it?

                                                                Paul2 8)

A4C, I agree with everything you just posted. We are justified in Christ and his work on the Cross. Nothing else. But if we disregard the Law completely, then what.

Maybe your misunderstanding my last post, I didn't have time earlier to complete it, so here goes

Martin Luther again..

There are three ways in which the Law may be abused. First, by the self-righteous hypocrites who fancy that they can be justified by the Law. Secondly, by those who claim that Christian liberty exempts a Christian from the obsrevance of the Law. "These," says Peter, "use their liberty for a cloak of maliciousness," and bring the name of the Gospel into ill repute. Thirdly, the Law is meant to drive us to Christ. When the Law is properly used it's value cannot be too highly appraised. It will take me to Christ every time.

Since you're probably a Calvinist, as am I.

Calvin said...

The third principal use, which pertains more more closely to the proper purpose of the law, finds its place among believers in whose hearts the Spirit of God already lives and reigns. For even though they have the law written and engravedupon their hearts by the finger of God [ Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:16], that is, have been so moved and quickened through the directing of the Spirit that they long to obey God, they still profit by the law. (institutes, 2.7.12)

We cannot disregard all the scriture that points to the cross for justification, but we also can't ignore all of the scripture that speaks about the Law.

Jesus said.."If you love me, you will obey what I commanded" (John 14:15) Now, is He speeking of justification, NO. If anyone believes that obeying the Law justifies them, then I would say what dirty rag will you put before the Lord to justify yourself. If anyone thinks they are justified by Christ and works, I would say you have just disparaged the cross and are double minded, you cannot both glory in the Cross and dispairage it at the same time. We are justified in Christ alone. But because of this, does this mean the Law has no further use? I believe scripture teaches that it still does have a use.

I'm going to post this before I lose it, I have more.

The shorter Catechism ... Westminister Devines...

Question 1 What is the chief end of man?

Question 2 what rule has God Given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him?

Question 3  What do scriptures principally teach?

Question 39 What is the duty which God requires of man?

Question 40 What did God at first reveal to man for a rule of his obedience?

Question 41 where is the moral law summarily comprehended?

The moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments.

You'll notice each question answers the previous one

I hope we are on the same page and this is just a misunderstanding. If not, please reconsider you position. When it comes down to an all or nothing debate concerning the Law, in other words The Law must justify or you can't have it. Then the debate is flawed from the beginning. Not to long ago I believed that the Law had no place for today. After further study, I believe it does, but not to justify us.

God Bless, Your brother in Christ.
4JC

My Favorite Web-Sites And Studies
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A Little Light Bible Fellowship
http://www.alittlelight.org/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Question:  What is the difference between "law" and "grace"?  


Answer:  Under the law system, God's relationship with man was on the basis of man's obedience to God's divine law. Failure to obey resulted in withholding of blessings, punishment, separation and death.
God's command to man was "thou shalt..." and his promise was "I will..." Some examples are found in Exodus 20: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." "Thou shalt not kill." "An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee." (verses 3, 7, 13, 24)

What was the problem with the law? Simply put, man failed to keep it and thus man became guilty of all. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 The law was weak in the flesh. When Christ shed his blood on the cross, he condemned sin in the flesh and liberated us from the law. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:2-4

What was the purpose of the law? To teach us that we are sinners and that we are in need a Saviour. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:19-20 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:24-25

Under grace, God's relationship with man is based upon His mercy in giving man total and complete forgiveness for sins. The sacrifices under the law could not take away sins. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Hebrews 10:4 These sacrifices were only a temporary solution. God provided a permanent solution by taking away sins with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." Hebrews 10:9-13

Because man fell short of God's glory by sinning, God set forth Jesus Christ as our propitiation (or fully satisfying sacrifice). "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:23-26

The law taught us of our short comings and our need for salvation. Grace teaches us of our completeness in Christ. "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespases; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." Colossians 2:6-15

The law required continual obedience. Grace requires one time acceptance. The law worketh wrath. "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15 Through grace, we have peace. "THEREFORE being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2 "Moreover the law entered that the offence might abound, But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20-21

wopik,

There you go, and the reason why Jesus pointed Him to the Law, is because at that very moment there was no NO NEW Covenant in effect, have you not read;

Heb 9
13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15  And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.[/b]
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The Law was the only way to God, which was effect, only by odedience to it, could man receive the promise faith of Jesus Christ, that they might be justified by FAITH, isn't this what Paul taught at

Gal 3:
20  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


You see, verse 24,  "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


And of course, the commandments were the principle element of the Law, since without the commandments, the Law of Moses could not have been the Law of Sin and Death.

No commandments, No sin, and No death.

And thats exactly where we are today, those who are in Christ, are NOT under the Law of Commandments contained in Ordinances, since Jesus not only abolished, but blotted them out (the handwritten ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:14) , to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


It is simple but yet, hard to understand, unless one possesses  the Spirit of God.


Petro

Notice what was handwritten;

Deut 9
10  And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

All the WORDS, means exactly that;

This is NOT refering to the 10 commandments only, which is contrary to what you would say, it is speaking of all the words which the Lord Spake to Moses.

You cannot separate the 10 commandments from the other commandments, given to Moses

Well actually you and others do, because you desire to subvert Gods Word to your own advantage.

However the scriptures are clear that Moses spent 40 days and nights upon the mountain, and in the two tables of stones (Ex 34:1) the entire words of the covenant and the ten commandments were written,

note;

Ex 34
 27  And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28  And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29  And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30  And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.


Now notice what the Apostle Paul says at:

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious,...............


..............so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13  And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Are you saved, a born again Christian, who possesses the Holy Spirit of God??


Petro

Obebience, out of Love or duty? Both, I'm sure you agree about love, so heres duty.

Luke 17:17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Obedience of love.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Both our love for the Lord and our sense of duty to Him should motivate our obedience.

Our obedience does not merit salvation, of course. But genuine conversion to Christ inevitably produces obedience. Therefore, while obedience is never a condition for salvation, it is nontheless always salvations fruit. That is why scripture speaks of obedience as an essential evidence of true Christianity: "He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1Jn. 2:4). "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devel: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" (3:10). "He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God" (3Jn. 11).


What does "under the Law" really mean?

In what sense are we freed from the Law under grace?

We are not under the ceremonial law.

We are not under the law for justification.

How is Christian Obedience different from legalism?

God bless

The fruit of the Spirit is;

Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.  (Gal 5:22-23)


Obedience produces Faith, Faith is a gift of the Spirit by the Grace of God.

Christians are called to live from faith unto faith, for the just shall live by faith.

And everything that is not of FAITH, is sin.

Keeping commandments is not of Faith....one must due them.

Did you ever read where Jesus said; even the priests did not keep the sabbath, and were found guiltless??

Mat 12
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Do you know what this means??


Petro

I'm out of time tonight Petro, I'll try to get back tomorrow morning. God bless.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Since your statement contradicts itself, and I know you better than that, I'll assume the first part is a type-o and you meant to say Faith produces Obedience. Which was my point about the fruit of salvation and I would agree 100%. If I'm wrong about the type-o, then I disagree with the first part.



Romans7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The moral standards set by the law are a reflection of God's character.


Yes, also see Matthew 9:13. In a nutshell, it was a rebuke. Jesus cites Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam.15:22:Mic.6:6-8).
Which emphasizes absolute priority of the laws moral standards over the ceremonial requirments.

God bless

4JC,

Forgive me, I assumed you understood, one has to hear the word of God firstly (and it must be preached to the individual according to (1 Cor 1:21), before he can trust (a form of belief without commitment) it together with obedience (perhaps this could be even, a simple desire to obey) will produce the necessary FAITH to believe with commitment in Jesus which  saves the individual.

For a blow by blow snap shot of the order, see Ephesians 1:12-13, trust first followed by belief or saving Faith, causes the sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  

Only trusting and obeying will produce this FAITH, since it is a gift by the GRACE of GOD, salvation being the end result or the free gift.

Those who separarte Grace from Faith, don't accept this, but it matters little, the fact is one cannot separate Grace (of God), from Faith (in God).


The commandment of the NT to repent of which Paul refers to at Acts 17:30, is the commandment which damns all who fail to obey it to an eternity in Hell.

This has nothing to do with the 10 commandments, since it is understaood, no one has ever, nor will ever keep the 10 commandments, that is the reason why, Paul say at Eph 2;

1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:17,  

notice he doesn't say the;

form of commandments which was delivered you


No arguments here.


Wrong, not even close...........the priests performed worked on the sabbath, keeping the sabbath Holy was a commandment, not a moral law, the breaking of the keeping of the Sabbath is offense against God Himself.

Ex 20
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11  For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Understanding this passage of scripture will set you free from bondage of having a need to keep the  the law, and will set you free.  It is good to keep the commandments, but not a matter of life and death, since we are dead to them,

In other words, doing the Lords work on the Sabbath is more important to God, than keeping it.

Jesus hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

There is the Letter of the Law, and the Spirit of the Law.


The priests performed a sacrificial offering on the sabbath.

Jesus rebuked the Pharasees who said to Him;

Mat 12
 2  ...............................Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

What did they do??

And How does that apply to NT Saints, who are Priests of God??

If you come to and understanding of this, you will see Grace in a totally different way.  It is not Grace thru Faith and keeping the commandments that saves, at all........it is Grace thru Faith, period.

Blessings,

Petro

Hey Petro,

Although a lack of obediedce may prevent a growth in faith (if that's what you mean, I agree), obedience does not produce faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

Let's look at the verse you gave

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

17:31 Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

We see the same thing in Romans 3:25, but lets look at the context and see what it tells us.

3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
 
3:21But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
 
3:22Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

3:23For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Here is the parrellel to Acts 17:30

3:25Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

3:26To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Speeking of justification

3:27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
 
3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
 
3:29Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
 
3:30Since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Here is the key verse
 
3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

3:31 Knowing He would be accused of antinomianism (being against the law) for argueing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law, Paul introduced here a defense he later developed in chapters 6,7. through faith....we establish the law. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law but underscores its true importance:1) by providing a payment for the penelty of death, which the law requires for failing to keep it;2)by fulfilling the law's original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind's utter inability to obey God's righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal. 3:24); and 3) by giving believers the capacity to to obey it (8:3-4). (Macarthur study bible)


LOL, come on, that's not what I said.

iron sharpens iron

God Bless

Phil 1
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Both believing in Him and suffering with Him, is by Faith, since this is speaking of His death and resurrection, the scriptures assure us that is we have died and been buried with Christ and have also been resurrected with Him.


Co 2
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Know I know you haven't suffred much fort Him, just as I haven't, but it made clear we have died and been resurrected, even while others suffer for their Faith in Him, and we who are members of the same body suffer with them, sometime I wonder if we are even aware of what is happening to other members of the body of Jesus.

Note:

1 Cor 12
14  For the body is not one member, but many.
15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

You may reject this, I don't..

My Faith in Christ is not something I conjured up, praise the Lord he has equipped me, with everything I need to live a life pleasing to Him, even my Faith in Christis the result of His Grace, since He assures me He has given me to Jesus, who will raise me up at the last day, that my hope might be in Him, and not in myself.....nor anything I do.





I doubt Paul even considered this at all, or even cared what others would accuse him of, it is clear from his writings he sought to please God and not men.

I think you have added to Gods Word here, to shore up your doctrine...which lacks biblical a foundation .



So, what did you mean??



Petro

Petro, Up until you quoted me the second time in your last post, I agree with everything you said and the scripture you gave. I am very familiar with 1 cor. 12, I wish more people today would understand it. I'm not sure how it applies to the debate at hand, but it is nontheless truth. I know it is difficult to talk about the law and not discuss justification, but it seems, to me, very difficult to seperate law and justification in the minds of the people I'm talking too. In other words, We end up debateing something we are in agreement in. Maybe this comes from years of debating against Arminianism.


Actually, I think the writer meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.



I gave Matt. 9:13 because it was a better example. I believe it explains it better, that is, to "know what this means".

Matt. 12 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

The pharisees cared mostly about the outer man, the cerimonies and so on. But is this more important than to Love our nieghbor as ourself? When the two clashed the moral Law overrided the cerimonial requirements of the law of that time.

God bless

You are not sure?

It is because you just use certain isolated verses, to try and prove your viewpoint, no offense but, clearly you need to consider all verse that shed light on the matter, this passage answers the obvious question which would be asked by the use of Phil 1:29, where we are told Faith to believe is Jesus in given to us, and also to suffer for His sake.

If were persecuted for our faith this would not be an issue.  


 
Well, you and wopik, brought it up, I am sharing what Gods Word clearly teaches, but you all insist, one must keep the commandments to continue being saved, so that in effect you turn salvation from Grace through Faith, to Faioth and keeping the law (commandments), because in extending your theory, you would claim, if Christians do not keep the commandments, they will lose their salvation; while we state plainly that not keeping the commandments Jesus gave His people, this is proof one may not be saved at all, although one says he is, good works are not evidence of salvation, obeying Gods Word is, He commands all men everywhere to Repent, (Acts 17:30) and to believe in Him whom He has sent(Ex 18:15-19).

Jesus, said If you love me keep my commandments, Christians today ignore His commandments, yet desire to keep the 10 commandments, yet, they call themselves Chritians and reject Jesus own words, especially when contending on this subject,

the doctrine of eternal security is founded on Jesus own words, yet those who say they are believers reject His own words.  One cannot take one passage of scripture and create
a whole teaching contrary to the Lords own promises, it is better to say, I don't understand why he said this, rather then go down the road of deception.


Actually, I think the writer meant he (paul) feared not for his own sake, but truths sake. as this thread is a perfect example of how we must be very clear on what we say lest it be misunderstood and lead people astray.
"I think the writer meant", see this is what I mean about adding something to scripture and then calling it inspired.





I gave Matt. 9:13 because it was a better example. I believe it explains it better, that is, to "know what this means".

Matt. 12 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

The pharisees cared mostly about the outer man, the cerimonies and so on. But is this more important than to Love our nieghbor as ourself? When the two clashed the moral Law overrided the cerimonial requirements of the law of that time.

God bless




You confuse everything here,  the commandments is what we have been discussing, keeping the sabbath is a commandment, we Christians do not observe the sabbath, because we see clearly, the keeping of the sabbath is a shadow of the real sabbath day of rest revealed in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest, He is Lord of the Sabbath, we are his priests and  able ministers of His Gospel in the present tense (not will be, at some future time), we do the Lords work daily, as God enables us, the commandments were clearly delineated by Jesus himself for us, when He said;

Mat 22
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Plus He gave other commandments, do you know what these are??

Anyhow, to answer your question;


Why do you bring up the law, when talking about justification??

It is enough that Gods Word says;

Rom4
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Gal 2
16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This should end all arguments.

Why do you insist keeping the commandments, will somehow justify Christians before God at the end??

[Since all, Christians are justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ, and His righteousness is imputed to us.]  

It is because you and those that subscribe to this doctrine, do not understand Rom 4, and James 2.

I can only surmise,  ignorance is the cause,  since both passages are clear, no one is justified by keeping the law/commandments, or working some good work, period.......


But anyhow, thank you for your contribution, I trust this will encourage us, to seek the truth in the Word of God without adding our own thoughts or words to HIS.


Blessings,

Petro

Above all else, I gave you a verse that clearly, states that Bornjh Again  Christians will be justified in the end, in spite of many offences(transgressions against the law), you can accept this or not, it won't change the truth of this verse one bit.

You know it is possible for people to believe they are a christian, when in fact they are not, I have to say, that all who deny Jesus spoken words for doctrines concocted by men, may be decieving themselves, why??

Because every spoken word by Jesus, are words the Father put in His mouth and He will require it, from every person that heard these words, in that day, this is a fact, because He (Jesus) is that prophet, of Ex 18:15-19.

Above all else, we know Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive and so do his ministers, and they do decieve many.


Petro

Petro, I'll answer your post later when I have more time.

I have to ask, what are you obedient to?  

You can't be obedient unless you have a standard, otherwise it isn't obedience, it's simply your will.

You keep acusing me of of not being true to Gods Word. But clearly my theology accounts for all scripture and not just some of it. You have yet to answer the abundance of scripture given by myself and others here. You keep argueing justification. Ill say it again, I agree. But the law still stands.
Why would God sew something into our hearts that not only is a sin, as you say, but was abolished, as you say. As of this time, you have brought nothing to the table to defend your beliefs, other than false acusations.

God bless

Hopefuly, I'll have time to finish this.


Can you please show me how 1 Cor. 12 teaches that obedience produces faith.


In light of the fact that obedience is an fruit of a true faith, and that it is not a determining factor in ones salvation, Remember the saying "You can have works without faith but you cant have faith without works"? Is this not James whole point. I think you'll see that everything I posted is in line with the Word of God. Remember, I said faith produces obedience, you said obedience produces faith, is that not a works based salvation? The very thing you claim to stand against. My theology is in harmony with eternal security.


This one is my fault, I should have been more clear. lets follow it through.

My quote of Macarthur

Then you stated in reply;


Since it was not my words, but Macarthur's, of which I am in agreement with, I said;  (here meaning Macarthur)added for clarity.


Of which you replied;


I hope that clears things up on the matter.

You said


No, you confuse everything here.Your looking at the small picture and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You're only looking at the sabbath as it pertained to the Jews. Are we now allowed to comit adultry because it no longer is punishable by death. There are certain aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews, but the law still stands.Also keep in mind that sometimes in scripture we are speeking about the traditions of man and sometimes the aspects of the law that were unique to the Jews. We see an exellent example of this in (I believe) Mark 2:27-28 where Jesus rebukes them not for their observance of the sabbath but there abuse of it. see Duet. 23:25

God Bless

Geeesh....you didn't even understand the point I made;  you need to read my posts, to understand the point I made.



If one is not saved, he cannot produce fruit unto God, so It is fruitless to discuss fruit if one is not obedient.  Obedience will produce fruit.  It begins with obedience to the commandment to repent (Acts 17:30), and continuing a life of obedience subjected to the Holy Spirit, will produce spiritual fruit.


 


Concerning James 2, you nor wopik, understand that Rom 4, speaks of Justification before God, key verses are;

2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

It is clear, one is not saved by faith and/or works at this passage of scripture.

In James 2, the key verse is;

18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

This is the verse those who believe one must work to be saved, misunderstand, becaus it is natural for the natural man to want to contribute to his own salavtion, and those that think this way, insult the Spirit of Grace.

Maybe I can quote the verse using another version for you, to help you out;

"You say that you have faith and I have merely good actions.  Well, all you can do is to show me a faith without corresponding actions, but I can show you by my faith my actions that I have faith as well." Phillips Modern Version

You can see, this has nothing to do with God, it is one man proving to another man his faith with or without works.

In short, if a man came to you and said, "You say you have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your  works, and I will show you my faith by my works."  then the rest follows.  

Everything that follows this verse must follow in the light of this verse.

Men are saved by faith not faith and works.  This is a false teaching.


Unfortunately your theology and mine agrees (in the sense only, that the saved will produce works), and whats unfortunate, is your theology gets there by believeing salvation is the result of faith + works, mine gets there by saying exactly what the scriptures teach;  that a man is saved by faith alone, without works, but works is the result of that faith.

One Honors God, whiole the otherone dishonors God.

I trust you can see, the truth of this point.




Of which you replied;



I see, where all this came from, now..






Hey............you can keep the sabbath if you desire, but if you believe you must keep it to be saved in the end,  I would ask myself if I were you, what happens if I don't, if your answer is, then I may NOT be saved, than that will prove my point, that for you, your theology is  Faith + Works = Salvation.

This is the God dishonoring theology I am pointing out, as False to you and wopik.

Trusting this makes it clearer, to you.



Blessings,

Petro

Quote from Petro


Is this not what I have been saying?

Petro, you're killing me. lol

4Jc,

I know what you are saying, you are saying a person, must be have faith + good works in order to be saved, this is the joke, that should make you laugh.

And it is false, and man is saved by faith alone, the work that a man doesm is the work God produces in him, to "will and to do" of His good pleasure, this is a work of God, and not man.

And this is the prinicple reason why you and wopik, are on the same page, you do not know what is being said, and this is why you cannopt grasp the teaching of James 2.

Do you believe in the triune Godhead??

How about in the person of the Holy Spirit??

If you do...

Your friend wopik doesn't??

How is it you are in agreement with him, on this other issues.??


It doesn't make sense..

Thanks for your comments anyhow..

Petro

Petro, in all fairness, I went out of my way to make sure that that is not what people would think I said. If you can please show me where you think I said that faith + good works save then I will edit my post to clarify it. since that is not what I believe.

Here is what I believe.

Works don't save! Never have, never will!

Works are an evidence, not a determing factor.

We know a tree by it's fruit.

So when I quote scripture that speaks of works, I"m not saying one can lose or gain salvation by works, I'm simply saying that if you claim to be saved and the evidence shows otherwise, it's time to be concerned. This is how Jesus can say" If you love Me, keep my commandments." He is saying that this will be an evidence of a true salvation. He is not saying we gain or lose salvation by keeping the commandments. And by works I'm also speaking in terms of obedience. Do we sin? Sure we do. but we strive not to. We strive to be Christ like, even though we know we will fall short. We do this because we love Him, and choose to be obedient. Even when we are not feeling the Holy Ghost goose bumps we still choose to be obedient out of duty. This is what love is. Hasn't there ever been a time when you wanted to sleep in and not go to church? Why do you get up and go anyways? Duty, we do it because that's what love does. This is what James was speaking of. "show me your faith without works". Which is not in cotrast to Paul. The jews who felt that since they were now justified by faith, they no longer needed to observe the law (Gods Law). This is a classic form of people who think they have a license to sin. James took care of that.
On the other side we have the Jews who felt justified by obeying the law. Paul took care of that. Paul and James were not contradicting eachother, but were standing back to back defending two different attacks on there faith.

If you take this post to mean something other than what was clearly said. Than there's nothing I can do about it. I've been as clear as I know how to be. If it wasn't you Petro, I'd assume someone was trolling.

God bless

I know that it is faith that will get me saved and not what I do, but I follow the law (e.g. try not to do any work on Saturdays if I can avoid it) in order to make the Lord Jesus Christ happy:

4JC,

I have been busy, and hadn't seeing this post for sometime..

So, to answer you; I say;


Yes, well Jesus knows what He is talking about....no question about it..

Let me ask you two questions;

1.    What commandments are we to keep??

2.     What does this following passage teach?

2 Cor 3
1  Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2  Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
4  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:


According to this passage of scripture what is it that was done away with??

Hint;

the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

This had to do with the OLD COVENANT.


What does this mean, to you??

7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:



You said;  [I quote]
And by works I'm also speaking in terms of obedience. Do we sin? Sure we do. but we strive not to. We strive to be Christ like, even though we know we will fall short. We do this because we love Him, and choose to be obedient. Even when we are not feeling the Holy Ghost goose bumps we still choose to be obedient out of duty. This is what love is. Hasn't there ever been a time when you wanted to sleep in and not go to church? Why do you get up and go anyways? Duty, we do it because that's what love does. This is what James was speaking of. "show me your faith without works". Which is not in cotrast to Paul.[end of quote]

Did you have "free will" before you were saved??

There is a difference between, "duty" and "free will"





There is no evidence for what you have stated, both are defending against the same error which continues in the church to this day, one of Faith plus works equals salvation.

You need to read Acts 15, the result of the4 First Council at Jerusalem, there is no mention of obedience to any lcommandments of law there, at all, the appeal to obey my commandments comes from Jesus Himself, if you love me....He says.

Must you keep the Sabbath today??





Answer me the questions...............



Blessings,

Petro

God bless

I can accept this, since that is the goal,  to live a life pleasing to God.

When people write vague things, I never give occasion to the flesh, let everyman be a liar, but let God be true.

I say make them prove it.

Blessings,
Petro