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The topic of the Apostle Creed was brought up in Aug. I can't remember the persons name. He did say that he didn't think the Apostles Creed was scriptural. I will show it here and perhaps he can point out the errors that he finds in this Creed.
 
Apostles' Creed

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1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Please keep in mind the word 'catholic' means, universal. It does not mean the Roman Catholic Church. Although they do recite this Creed .

God bless,
bluelake

I wasn't familiar with a version that uses "begotten" in the second line.

May I ask where you got it?

Marv

I believe man made creeds and doctrinal statements are dangerous and should be avoided. The Word of God is the only doctrinal statement that mankind needs. I have seen to many doctrinal statements that go beyond the Word of God and exalt man’s traditions above the Bible. I think we get dangerously close to the pharisees and Sadducees and make void the Word of God by adding our own traditions that all are expected to hold to and follow.

Mar 7:1  Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2  And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3  For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4  And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Pilgrim

 I have it in the Creed of the Saints, which I got from a series of books called: "What Luther Says"
The only change from the creed mentioned is the (the Holy Christian Church) in Luther's day there may have been a reason for that.
While I was growing up attending church every Sunday until I was 16, we recited a Creed, that I have planted in my mind, to memory, which is not a bad thing, its all words from the Word and we said the same words "only begotten". We also recited the Lord's prayer every Sunday, though its design was a pattern in which to show us how to pray. It is the words of our Lord, and just sings, don't it.
But I'm no longer Methodist, it was stamped on my dog tags, but I'm not of that Church, but I belong to the body of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just not that denomination.

I believe man made creeds and doctrinal statements are dangerous and should be avoided, from  Pilgrim.

I don't feel that way about the Creed of the Saints, but doctrinal statements? I'd have hear them or read them first.  But what the Creed of the Saints says, well,  I see no harm in it. Because it is the Word and is truth, just put in a format. Because I did not make it, it is making me, it is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man.  Lyrics from a song I heard sung by Third day, which is a creed in song.

Luther said there were 6 things as the head of the family that should be taught in a simple way to his household. In other words these things should be taught at home. And I'm not Lutheran either.
 If they are used in the sense of works or as the only means to salvation, or rituals, religious practices for the wrong reasons or as regulations or to seem holy and the love of the Lord is not in it, then there is a danger. If  they are not yet committed to Jesus,  does not mean they are bad seeds of the Word being planted in them. I'm a witness to them seeds planted up till I was 16, then the years of rebellion until I truly seen the light at age 43, fits the Proverb to a tee.

The 6 items Luther said to be taught at home:
1) The Creed of the Saints
2) The Lord's prayer
3) The Ten Commandments
4) The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
5) The office of the Keys and Confession
6) The Sacrament of the Alter

Martin Luther's words on Catechism:
   Do not merely pass over the words of the catechism, observe them carefully and meditating on them prayerfully with an attentive heart. The catechism are summaries of Bible's teachings, the Catechism is an epitome and brief transcript of the entire Holy Scriptures. Stick to the fundamentals of the Bible, discuss not matters that have not yet been revealed. But simply stay with the Word of God, especially with the Catechism.
   It is doctrine at it's best and a foundation for the youth and the new believer, in which they may grow in Christianity. Daily reciting of these truths will work to revelation in a new believer unto their understanding and knowledge of them. {Which will enlighten the eyes of their hearts to wards the passions and desires of our Lord Jesus Christ. gg}
  As for the youth, it is grounds for which they will turn too in their days of old.  {It is seed, it will grow and it is the Word of God, it will not come back void. gg}

Proverbs 22:6 train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

It is God's will for us to teach our children about Jesus, why, he died on the cross for us, about the Father, and the Holy Ghost. If Jesus is in it and the goal of it, how can it be harmful, when explained about the importance of it coming from ones heart in seeking Him.

I would add to the things we must teach to our children, being empowered by the Spirit to do it.
Explaining the importance of staying in the Word, prayer, thanksgiving, giving, doing all things in love, to serve Him, explaining all the fruits of the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, about faith,  God's love for us, about salvation through making Jesus one's Lord and Savior, about surrendering to Him our all, His Lordship and what that means. truly loving Jesus, with all our heart and what sin is.
The importance of having a relationship with Jesus, about renewing the mind, about bringing all things in to obedience to Christ. In away a child could understand. Whats not the truth in the creed, is it not of  the Word of God?

                                           Pilgrims replies &  quotes from Mark 7
Mar 7:1  Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2  And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashed, hands, they found fault. 3  For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4  And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Pilgrim

                                        LAB -NIV - commentary on Mark 1 - 9

 V1} Jesus scolded them for keeping the law and traditions in order to look holy instead of to honor God.
V3 & 4} Jewish rituals, the Pharisees thought these ceremonies cleansed them from anything they may consider unclean. Jesus said they were wrong in their thinking  they were acceptable to God just because they were clean on the outside.
V6 & 7}  Hypocrisy is pertending to be something you are not and have no intention of being. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites because they worshiped God for the wrong reasons, their worship was not motivated by love, but by a desire to attain profit, to appear holy, and to increase their status. we become hypocrites when we (1) pay more attention to reputation than to character, (2) carefully follow certain religious practices practices while allowing our hearts to remain distant from God, and (3) emphasize our virtues but others' sins.
V8 & 9}  The Pharisees added hundreds of their own petty rules and regulations to God's holy laws, and then they tried to force people to follow these rules. These men claimed to know God's will in every detail of life. there are still religious leaders today who add rules and regulations to God's Word, causing much confussion among believers. It is idolatry to claim that your interpretation of God's Word is as important as God's Word itself. It is especially dangerous to set up unbiblical standards for others to follow. Instead look to Christ for guidance about your behavior, and let Him lead others in the details of their lives.  {LAB-NIV}


May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Hello pilgrim,
I read your statement of faith. After reading it I can't understand what grievance you would have with the Apostle Creed?
For examlpe, the first line taken from  scripture. Jn.1:1-3, Col.1:16
2. Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Lu.1:32, Mt.3:17
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. Lu.1:35

I can give you passages for each line of this Creed.
Do you think we, as Christians would be reciting something contrary to the word of God?  ???

I challenge you to find the remainder of passages that give credence to this wonderful statement of Christian faith.

God bless you,
bluelake :)

I agree.  :)

But I fear, lest by any means,
as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 11:3 KJV

You'll remember, friends,
that when I first came to you to let you in on God's master stroke,
I didn't try to impress you with polished speeches and the latest philosophy.
I deliberately kept it plain and simple:
first Jesus and who he is;
then Jesus and what he did--Jesus crucified.
1 Cor 2:1-2 The Message


And one of my favorite quotes:
"The important thing is not how we worship
or what words we use,
or what tags we tie on,
but do we love our neighbors?
Are we guided by His Holy Spirit?
Do we obey Him implicitly?
Do we weep for those who do not know Christ?
Do we long to share our knowledge of Him?"
~Bilquis Sheikh
from: I Dared to Call Him Father

I'm not Pilgrim, ;)
but instead of finding something about the Word of God to recite --
maybe just recite from the Word, itself?  :D

The repitition of reciting does not help me as the reciting starts to take precedence over the message and I fail to bring the actions of the message into the heart/spirit whereby my body will follow and reflect God and His Christ to the natural world.

ollie

Greetings Brother's & Sister's in Christ


  Just some thoughts to ponder on,  from history research I have on the Word of God, some which I may have obtained from www. greatsite.com / Bible museum in Goodyear, Arizona.

  The Bible was divided into Chapters by Stephen Langton about 1228 A.D. The Old Testament was divided into verses by R. Nathan in 1448 A.D.; the New Testament by Robert Stephanus in A.D. 1551. The entire Bible, divided into Chapters  and Verses, first appeared in 1560 A.D. in the Geneva Bible.

  Our Lord said in:  Matthew 4:4  But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {KJV}

  The Bible is God breathed, it says every Word, and we know that in John 1:14    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.  {KJV}
So here it says Jesus is the Word, there is the only begotten, and it also says that in John 3:16, possibly the most memorized verse in the Bible. And it goes on and says full of grace and truth. Jesus said I'm the truth and the life. The Word we know is nothing but the truth, Jesus is the Word.
  Now in Matthew 4:4 Jesus is quoting scripture, notice He does not say it says in Deuteronomy 8:3 " and he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that doth not live by bread only, but by every Word proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.  {KJV}
  And from what we have in Chapter and Verse He did not quote the whole thing we now have in Chapter and Verse, just the Word. No chapter, no verse, just simply "It is written",  it is the Word of God. Now Jesus could have said it in terms of index or to show reference, because He knew it would appear like that one day. Knowing man would become more educated and complete in correctness to quickly obtain for reference purposes. But that would have been highly unlikely to do that, but He did tell them the world was round, when He said he would return but they knew not His understanding of that.
  Man put it in to Chapters and Verses, so did man corrupt the scriptures by doing that? No, he did not, it helps to learn it and to locate passages.  Reciting them things in the creed, are the Word, not in Chapter and Verse, but the Word just the same, Jesus is the Word and He is all in the creed. Reciting scriptures help us to learn them to memory, its all the Holy Spirit's work in us to try and obtain the knowledge of the scriptures. As Luther said, it will bring about revelation and learning the truth.  Is not the creed all the truth and the Word of God? Well, yes it is.   
  As I said in the last reply there are conditions and reasons that will not plant the truth, or will present danger. Sincerity is the key root of walking with Jesus, and as He said in John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and My Words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you." {KJV}  The creed is putting that abide in there, and if you abide in Him. When I try to memorize scripture the Holy Spirit has brought me revelation to its meaning, when I first begin to pray on the Armor of God, it was the Spirit giving me revelation to what its understanding and knowledge and wisdom of it and it continues to enlighten me in God's will for me and understanding when the Spirit prompts me to His guidance.
  But faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, {KJV}  Romans 10:17, it is the Word. The Holy Spirit, the hound of Heaven was after me along time because of them seeds of the Word planted in me in my youth, how ever they were spoken to me. In creed, or song, when the Spirit brings up scripture to me I don't recall where it is written till I need to find it, or else it's Strongest Strong time. But the Spirit discerns it in me to understand its revelation, its Him who gives me the scripture.
1 Corin. 2:9   But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.   {KJV} That whole chapter is rich in what the Spirit does in revelation. And about man's wisdom and the Words of the creed are not man's wisdom or just word's they are from the Word.
  I'm sure the men that brought it in the form of the creed, took all the necessary leads of the Spirit to make no doubt in its presentation of the Gospel and Word of God. Maybe if they would have added at the beginning of it  "For it is written", then Christians would not have developed fear over the "Pure Words of God" in a creed form.
  Everything we say of the Word of God and all our actions and thoughts and speech should have in Jesus name at the conclusion of them, one day they will, upon His return.

May the Lord bless thee and keep
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

I don't think Pilgrim is against the statements that the creed makes.  I think he is retisent to uphold a man's statement, regardless of it's basis, over or in accordance with God's word.  I agree with the Creed.  I uphold God's word.   :)

Amen! sincereheart.

Amen! Allinall,

The Word of God is more than sufficient for all our needs. As sincereheart pointed out God’s Word in it’s simplicity doesn’t need the aid of mankind to make it’s point. To often mankind thinks they are helping out with their doctrinal statements and in the end they corrupt the Word of God. The Heidelberg confession, Belgic confession and Cannons of Dort are just a few example of mankind tampering with the Word of God and bring in error in a major way.

Pilgrim

Hello ggamble,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Luther is the wrong man to quote to me. I don’t have much respect for a man as wicked as he was. At age 60 Luther wrote “The Jews and Their Lies”, one of the most hate filled documents I have ever read. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

Pilgrim

A complete translation is here (http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm).

Many focus on the Jews and ignore the Lies.   Luther spoke very strongly of any who disagreed with him.  I don't think, as the Jews did, that any man could assume he could go around Luther's area and teach that the Virgin Mary was a whore and Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and a blacksmith and expect to escape his sharp tongue.

Nor would I expect any to escape who look to the fact that they are physically decendended from Abraham as to proof of their salvation to escape.

Nor the fact that he is circumcised as proof of his salvation.

Nor someone who teaches that the Law is the way to salvation.

Especially not if one was teaching those things and actively using them to proselytyze people in Luther's area.

I've read Luther's booklet, and it clearly references a booklet it is written in reply to.  Here is the last paragraph of Luther's.


If you are going to use his writing to conclude he was an anti-Semite, at least read what he wrote, don't base it on condensed versions and others conclusions about what he wrote.

Marv

Brother Pilgrim,

  I have not read all of  "What Luther says", but alot of it only as I was lead to read. He died in 1546, February 18, not far away. As I was reading where your address led me, it did not read like Luther, wrote or from what I have read of him. Alot of it seemed like something that he would not have did, from what happened after the 95 thing he nailed on the door of the church. And as Marv said it is incomplete.
  No matter, I'm glad he followed the Spirit's lead back then, so we have the Word. Alot that is in the King James was from his translations. If he did anything outside of the Lord's will, or should I say what Jesus would have not done. Well, he had a flesh too, and I would have  to forgive as would you. And would hope the Spirit called him to repentance, since I know he heard His voice, I'd say he got all things right before He went to be with Jesus,  John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.    Dead or alive he is still a brother, and in what I posted in reference to him saying, many others would say the same thing.
  But my second post on here was as the first in reference to the creed as the Word of God. And well, the men that did it left out the verses and chapter and Book it was in, and they could had made it more Biblically correct if they would have put "For it is written" before they started the creed, and maybe in Jesus name at the end of it to prove it. Which they did not have to do, because it is all in the Bible, and even the end of it, because it mentions the church in the Bible also. I recognize where they got it from in the Word, don't you?
  On Luther, I thank God for choosing him, to get the Word out and to keep the Book of Acts growing. I thank God for the creed, and it's truth and how it just sings of His glory. And I thank God for you, love ya brother. As long as it's in lines with His Word, I'll teach it to may children in any method the Spirit guides me too. Because I have that watchman over me, to give me discernment  of what is of the truth and what is of man. The Spirit of God, with saying that, I'll be digging in for a test of it.  Praise Jesus
  Blessed be His name.


May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only Always For Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

ggamble and Marv,

Amen brothers. This is the same problem that many have with the Bible itself, taking portions of it and placing their own meaning to it instead of taking it in the whole. Any time that we read any non-Biblical works we must insure that we compare the entire writing to the Bible to insure that it is in line with it's teachings.

This is also a method being used today in schools in writing history books .... printing only portions of the founding fathers quotes in order to prove that our country was not founded on the Christian beliefs. When a person looks at the entire quotes, writings and documents one is then lead to the fact that the U.S. was in fact founded on and with the Christian beliefs.

When I recite the Apostles Creed, I can concentrate on each scripture that the words are taken from. The word came first, then the Creeds.
 Do you agree with the Lords Prayer?

God bless,
bluelake

Pastor Roger,
I don't agree with your comment. Christian teachings are taken from the Bible.
I enclosed a short bit of history on this issue.

APOSTLES' CREED - Historical Note

Although not written by apostles, the Apostles' Creed reflects the theological formulations of the first century church. The creed's structure may be based on Jesus' command to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In a time when most Christians were illiterate, oral repetition of the Apostles' Creed, along with the Lord's Prayer and the Ten Commandments, helped preserve and transmit the faith of the western churches. The Apostles' Creed played no role in Eastern Orthodoxy.

May I ask, how many here reject the 10 Commandments?
Or the Lords Prayer?
What is the doctrine of your Church? Is it based on scripture? The Apostles Creed is. I just proved that.

God bless you,
bluelake

Hi bluelake,

I think that you have misunderstood my comment. I was referring to the comments about the writings of Luther that were posted just prior to my post, not the Apostles Creed.

Bluelake:

The 10 Commandments and the Lord's Prayer (or more precisely the Disciples' Prayer) are Scripture -- the Word of God and the words of God. No one can reject them without rejecting Scripture.

The Apostle's Creed -- for all it's merits -- is an interpretation of the Word of God, and subject to further intepretation based upon the church tradition to which one might belong.  For example "the communion of saints" and "the holy catholic church" will not be interpreted by Roman Catholics as they will be by evangelicals.

So the Apsotle's Creed must be kept in perspective. A Creed or A Statement of Faith is not Scripture, although it may be based on Scripture. Sometimes, there may be errrors in Creeds, Catechisms, and Statements of Faith. A careful study of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) will prove this.

Let's take one example from the Apostle's Creed (which was not formulated by the apostles of Christ). We read "I believe in God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth". While this is true in itself, Scripture teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all equally involved in creation. Gen. 1:2 speaks of the Holy Spirit and Jn. 1:1-3 speaks of the Son.

So it would be more accurate to say "I believe in the triune Godhead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- Maker of Heaven and earth".

Hello ggamble,

http://www.elca.org/ecumenical/interfaithrelations/jewish/declaration.html

“In the spirit of that truth-telling, we who bear his name and heritage must with pain acknowledge also Luther's anti-Judaic diatribes and the violent recommendations of his later writings against the Jews. As did many of Luther's own companions in the sixteenth century, we reject this violent invective, and yet more do we express our deep and abiding sorrow over its tragic effects on subsequent generations. In concert with the Lutheran World Federation, we particularly deplore the appropriation of Luther's words by modern anti-Semites for the teaching of hatred toward Judaism or toward the Jewish people in our day.”

Even the Lutheran Church has come out against Luther’s hater for the Jews as part of their statement above shows. Are you aware that Hitler looked to Luther as one of his most esteemed religious leaders? Are you aware that one of Hitler’s butchers use Luther’s anti-semitism in his defense at the Nuremberg trial?

Apart form all this Luther held to the false gospel of baptismal regeneration. He believed and taught that salvation took place at one’s baptism and apart from baptism one cannot be saved.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism

“Martin Luther, for example, placed great importance on baptism. Luther states in The Large Catechism of 1529,

    "To put it most simply, the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is to save. No one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, to 'be saved.' To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil and to enter into the kingdom of Christ and live with him forever."”

If Luther believed what he taught then he held to a false gospel which does not have the power to save. God’s Word pronounces a strong anathema to anyone including angles who preach a false gospel and this would include Luther.

Gal 1:6 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” 

Luther’s catechism is a good example of the serious problem of man made doctrinal statements. You have to wonder how many souls are in hell right now because they embraced the false gospel of salvation presented by Luther’s catechism rather than the true gospel of the Bible. Luther’s catechism is a clear case of mankind making void the Word of God by their own traditions.

Pilgrim

Good morning Ollie!  :D

Valid point!  :)
But for us, since we homesKool ;), I find that memorizing Scripture helps my kids  draw upon His Word in times of "distress".
With that, of course, comes the study of Scripture and the reading of it in context! Not to mention the "exercise" of memorizing! And what better than God's Word?  :D

Ok.  :)


???

Hey Sis! (I seem to recall that you're a sister not a brother, but I am often wrong about such things, so if you're a brother in Christ rather than a sister in Christ, please discreetly let me know by saying,"YO! MORON!!! I'M A GUY!!!   :D)  I agree with you on focusing on the scripture from which the Creed was taken.  Please, don't concern yourself too much with the point we're making.  I feel this way myself in many ways.  One particular that I'll share with you: In my former church we had a Church Constitution we signed in agreement to be a member there.  When I signed, I had no problems with the idea, and didn't really pay that much attention to it.  It had in there, that we would uphold the use of the KJV, wouldn't go to movies, and a mess of things like that.  I did uphold the KJV...but also the NIV, the ESV, the NASB and the NKJV versions of God's word.  I did go to movies.  The folks at our church began to uphold this constitution higher than God's word.  The thing said "No Movies" so movies were sin!  The thing said to uphold the KJV so all other versions were straight from the Devil's mouth!  I began to feel as though I were being bound by man made shackles of interpretation rather than living free in Him.  When perspective begins to weigh heavier than liberty, there's a problem.

There in began my problem.  In my estimation, the only document we need to be a local body is God's Word.  We agree on the basics, and grow in our knowledge of the peripherals, and "if a man knows to do right in his heart and doesn't do it, to him it is sin."  For one man, bowling may be a sin because of the influence the things around it had in his life prior to conversion.  For another, it may not be.  For all men, stealing is a sin.  We know the basics, we grow in the peripherals together.  It's when the peripherals take the place of the precepts (which they tend to do most of the time with man written creeds/constitutions and the like) that we begin to have problems.

We are simply stating that no creed can replace God's word.  Will I die for a Creed?  No.  Will I die for the scriptural truths that that Creed upholds?  Yes, but on the basis of God's word.  I stand on precept.  I learn from peripheral.

I feel it is rather unfair for me to have to answer for a liberal Lutheran synod which also denies the verbal and plenary inspiration of scripture and has even apologized to the Roman Catholics for calling the Pope the antichrist so that they can attempt to reach common ground with the Roman Catholic church.

Clearly, Martin Luther's writings have been misused.  I would not for a moment argue that.  I would note that that has also been the case for the Bible, and that wouldn't be limited to those same people who so misused Luther.

Luther's contempories clearly did not take what Luther wrote in an overly literal manner.  If they had there would have been a great persecution of the Jews at the time.  However, such an event is totally missing from history.  Luther's power was such at the time that if he had wanted to be another Pope and march the people off to war he would certainly have had the ability to do so, but he didn't to think that he really was was intending for people to go out and do those things he used as examples is to really distort Luther.

Luther's home was a sanctuary for many, even on his wedding night, one of his opponents,Andreas Karlstadt, knocked on Luther's door.  Luther protected that man letting him into his home.  Andreas actually stayed for eight more weeks.

Luther spoke very strongly against sin, he spoke very strongly against any who he believed contradicted the Bible, yet he did not treat people harshly, he kept his lazy servant, Wolfgang Seberger on.  He not only did not try to kill opponents he was known to save them, and so on.

There is a lot written about Luther with the very intention of discrediting him.  The Roman Catholic church has been at it for a long time.  He is not easy to understand particularly with all that is out there intending to paint him in a bad light.

Now for baptism.

Martin Luther believed the Bible.  One verse that he uses in his explanation of baptism is Mark 16:16 NET
(16)  The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Now with time we have learned that that verse probably wasn't original, but Luther had no such advantage.  He believed the Bible and the Bible said baptism saves.

The Bible also says:
Colossians 2:12-13 NET
(12)  Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.
(13)  And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.

So Luther saw Baptism as a Sacrament, something instituted by Jesus, where earthly elements are combined with God's Word and which bestow grace, but you are attributing the Roman Catholic understanding of baptism to Luther.

For instance, Luther did teach that we receive grace through baptism, but he did not teach that we have to be baptised to be saved.  Maybe you are familiar with the saying "Grace alone through faith alone for the glory of Christ alone".  Well that is so taught in Lutheranism that it has its own name the "material principle".  Now if what you think Luther taught is inconsistent with that phrase, it is very likely that you misunderstand Luther.  The other possibilities are that something is being taken out of context or you don't understand the phrase, I can't think of any other.

What happens when people do what you are doing is that people say Lutherans teach that any unbaptised infant will be eternally damned.  At this point it is often difficult to continue a discussion because the Lutherans have fainted away.

Lutherans teach that we are saved by grace through faith.  Lutheran's teach that God's grace comes to us through God's Word and the Sacraments.  Since the Sacraments aren't Sacraments but just a bath and a meal without God's Word, you could condense it to grace comes to us through God's Word and not be incorrect.  (There is also general grace through God's creation, but we are mainly speaking of saving grace here)  Since baptism is not the only means of grace it is not correct to say one must be baptised to be saved under Lutheran theology.  One who is saved would normally be baptised but not always.

It should also be noted that the grace available in baptism doesn't come to us without faith.  It is not the simple act, but the reception of the act in faith, it is the belief that God's Word and promises are true.

Lutherans see the Sacraments as visible forms of God's Word, not as some work to merit salvation.  The only one doing any work in the Sacraments is God.  You could be baptised a thousand times and eat the Lord's Supper every hour and yet if you didn't accept in faith that Jesus gave his body for you and shed his blood for you and died for you, you wouldn't be saved.

You seem to have read Luthers Catechism, I don't know how you so misrepresent him.  Maybe it is the hatred you seem to feel towards him that makes you desire to misunderstand.

Agree with him or disagree but please don't continue to misrepresent him.

Marv

Amen, Marv

  What I have learn about Luther was his love for the Word of God, and about how scripture gives revelation to the meaning. On the catechism making one hellbound, it's my understanding and the same thing I had to make a choice to do as anybody else who is now saved by grace. They either choose Jesus as their Lord and Saviour or reject him. It is on ones own merit where they will spend eternity. And what I read about Luther and Baptism. Quote from Luther "For without the Word, the water is simply water and no Baptism."
  Pilgrim you left alot out, what you accuse man of doing in creeds and doctrines and such, {you may get a revelation here} you seem to be doing the very same thing. WWII was not Luther's fault for the Holocaust, think again.
Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, that may put some light on it, out of Ephesians, yes alot of Innocent blood was lost there. In Proverbs 6:16-20 we find out what God says about that, you might find some other wonderful things there also.
  I personally don't tell my children that this is the "catechism", I tell them what it is in the Word. I was in agreement with the things we are to teach at home and I would add alot more to it, as well as Matthew 5
But what I listed in my other replies about the catechism was right from Luther. I don't see anything in what he said that would put anyone in hell. If you are setting in a Protestant Church today you have The Lord to thank for Luther and alot of other reformers. Luther loved the Word, some of the things he wrote in his later life I have not studied them,  I've  heard some question to them and as Merv said it may all be because of people misunderstanding him or his interpretation. I'd write more, but I had a good reply yesterday but it got hacked. But I'll leave with this from Oswald Chambers from my devotions Feb. 2.  Our Lord never lays down the conditions of discipleship as the conditions of salvation. we are condemned to salvation through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Discipleship has an option with it -- "If any man...."


God bless,
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble
 

From Luther’s large catechism

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/catechism/web/cat-13.html
“We have now finished the three chief parts of the common Christian doctrine. Besides these we have yet to speak of our two Sacraments instituted by Christ, of which also every Christian ought to have at least an ordinary, brief instruction, because without them there can be no Christian; although, alas! hitherto no instruction concerning them has been given. But, in the first place, we take up Baptism, by which we are first received into the Christian Church.”

 “In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved. we know. is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever.
 Here you see again how highly and precious we should esteem Baptism, because in it we obtain such an unspeakable treasure, which also indicates sufficiently that it cannot be ordinary mere water. For mere water could not do such a thing, but the Word does it, and (as said above) the fact that the name of God is comprehended therein. But where the name of God is, there must be also life and salvation, that it may indeed be called a divine, blessed, fruitful, and gracious water; for by the Word such power is imparted to Baptism that it is a laver of regeneration, as St. Paul also calls it, Titus 3, 5.”

Luther’s small catechism: 

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/smallcatechism.pdf
“Second
What benefits does Baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all
who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are these words and promises of God?
Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be
saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).”

From Lutheran website

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3967
“The Scriptures teach, of course, that there is only one Baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is no indication that God has limited this blessed means of grace to individuals on the basis of age or levels of maturity. Baptism is God's act, a divine testimony to what "grace alone" really means, whereby He imparts the blessings of forgiveness, life, and salvation to indivduals, children and adults alike. And as our Lutheran fathers have always taught, Baptism confirms the grace of God upon adults who have already come to faith, and strengthens them in their faith, even as the Lord's Supper does.”

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2607
“The LCMS does not believe that baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved (apparently without baptism), as were all true believers in the Old Testament era. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.”

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2610
“There is no ambiguity about what Lutherans actually teach on this point, although you are may well be correct in observing that this needs to be taught more clearly and emphasized more frequently for the sake of those who may misunderstand what the Bible and the Lutheran Church actually teaches in this regard. Baptism is "enough" for salvation in that it contains all the blessings of salvation that God himself has attached to it; these blessings are received, however, only by those who cling in faith--which itself is a gift of God!--to the words and promises attached to baptism.”

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4645
“We also believe on the basis of what the Scriptures say concerning baptism throughout the New Testament that it is  a means through which God conveys His saving grace. Lutheran theologians therefore often speak of baptism as "visible Gospel." God (not human beings) has instituted baptism (Matt. 28:18-20). He has attached His powerful Gospel to the visible element of water and through this, His work, He unites us with Christ and imparts to us His saving blessings. That Baptism is God's means of imparting His grace is especially clear in Romans 6.”


Luther clearly taught that saving grace takes place for many at their baptism. This is a false gospel and is condemned by the Word of God. A false gospel cannot save and those who trust the false gospel which Luther taught are in grave danger. If they do not trust the true gospel of the Bible they will perish. According to Gal. 1 anyone who teaches a false gospel is curse. Luther unfairly receives a free pass and his wickedness winked at because many today are not aware of what this man taught and practiced. I am not a protestant, I owe Luther nothing. Liberal or not at least the “Evangelical Lutheran Church in America” is honest enough to reject Luther’s wickedness against the Jews.

Pilgrim

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I misread your quote.

God bless,
bluelake :)

Brothers and Sisters,

I was reminded of a GREAT TRUTH while reading this thread, and that GREAT TRUTH hasn't changed in over 2,000 years. We will find a list of faults, great and small, in EVERY man. AND, that's why we don't place our trust and faith in men. We place our trust and faith in ONE who NEVER fails and ONE who has NO faults:  JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever.

I think that we spend far too much time in talking about denominations and men's doctrines. There is absolutely nothing new about the Gospel of the Grace of God. Nothing can be added and nothing can be taken away from the FINISHED work of JESUS CHRIST on the Cross. The absolute Saving Truth was taught by the Apostle Paul and many others without the benefit of a single modern day Bible scholar, reformer, or any other title some would give to men. The point is very simple: Salvation is easy enough for a child to understand, and it remains the ABSOLUTE SAME as it was 2,000 years ago. So, the traditions and teachings of men mean absolutely nothing to me. The plain and pure Gospel taught by the Apostle Paul is all men need for Salvation and Peace with God.

Brothers and Sisters, the real answers are extremely simple in spite of man's best efforts to add to, take away from, or otherwise distort the Gospel of the Grace of God. Absolutely NOTHING has been discovered in 2,000 years that changes the GOOD NEWS of JESUS and the Cross. I must add that my trust is NOT in the Apostle Paul or any other man. I believe in the message that the Apostle Paul delivered because it was given and INSPIRED by GOD. My total faith, trust, and love is for:

1 - GOD THE SON, JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD, the Creator, my Lord and Saviour forever, the Precious One whose Blood was shed to forgive my sins, THE CHRIST and LORD over my life;

2 - GOD THE FATHER, who sent His Son to die on the Cross for us, VERY GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD, the Creator;

3 - GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, the COMFORTER who JESUS promised to send, the ONE who lives in my heart, the ONE who has SEALED my heart as a pledge of my inheritance, VERY GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD, the Creator.

4 - The HOLY THREE BEING ONE ALMIGHTY GOD with no beginning and no end for eternity past and eternity future.

Brothers and Sisters, we could spend the next 2,000 years arguing over men's teachings, denominations, tags, labels, traditions, and creeds, but it still wouldn't change the plain and simple GOOD NEWS of the GOSPEL of GOD'S GRACE. We will stop arguing about these things when we start spending eternity together with JESUS. They will all be left behind and forgotten, all except the simple message of Salvation that children still understand. It is still best for us to come to JESUS with a simple childlike faith and total trust in the ONE who died for us on the Cross.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hello, New Life, Pilgrim


Protestant
PROT'ESTANT, a. Pertaining to those who, at the reformation of religion, protested against a decree of Charles V. and the diet of Spires; pertaining to the adherents of Luther, or others of the reformed churches; as the protestant religion.

PROT'ESTANT, n. One of the party who adhered to Luther at the reformation in 1529, and protested, or made a solemn declaration of dissent from a decree of the emperor Charles V. and the diet of Spires, and appealed to a general council. This name was afterwards extended to the followers of Calvin, and Protestants is the denomination now given to all who belong to the reformed churches. The king of Prussia has, however, interdicted the use of this name in his dominions.  {Webster's Dictionary}


The Sacrament of Holy Baptism:
  Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God's command with God's Word. Christ, our Lord says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
What does Baptism give or profit?
   It works  forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the Words and promises of God declare.
  It is not the water, but the Word of God which is in and with the water. For without the Word, the water is simply water and no Baptism. But with the Word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a gracious water of life. A washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost. Titus chapter 3 says: According to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing  of the Holy Ghost. Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.
                                                                                        from the "What Luther Says"

  I take that as what Marv said and I shall paste it here:
It should also be noted that the grace available in baptism doesn't come to us without faith.  It is not the simple act, but the reception of the act in faith, it is the belief that God's Word and promises are true.
As I have highlighted in blue "It works" meaning to me it is a works in faith, or as Marv put it an act in faith.
  Note, here from what I just posted from Luther in the BOOK:  "What Luther Says"  that, being justified by His grace, we should be heirs according to the hope of eternal life. I would say he was preaching the right gospel, because  what I highlighted there in blue is what our salvation is based. There are other ways of saying it but that covers it.
  I visited your profile, just as you had visited mine, {I love the Lord} - went to the web-site, seen what might be considered man pulling out of scripture to make a statement of faith and or doctrine as you claim with the "creeds".
From my history of the church that I studied, it was baptism that formed the branching off of the Reformation. I have no true way of finding your church from the new churches branch off history per each cause to form another church. But if "Brethren" is the key word here than I can find it going back 1708 Schwarzenau Brethren, under leadership of Alexander Mack. And that was in the United States, and some in Europe which were a small group of men, branched from Anabaptism, Pietism, and Minnonite families.
  But from the definition from Webster's of what Protestant means, then your saying you came from the Catholic. And I would guess that you have the Hebrew text and the Greek text and translate it yourself, since Luther's translation {which is a lot of the King James}  / {because of your description of his character} would not be trusted?
I Thank God for the Word, and for what Luther did in his stand so we have it. I owe Jesus, my life, my all, my everything, and He is the Word.  
  I think your thing with Luther is a bit deeper and as I would tell a true brother, sanctification always gets to the root, to open up doors of truth. You have laid out the fruits here, discern some things. Luther did not get a so called "free pass", it had a cost, if you are truly of Christ, you would not threw around what Jesus did for us {that believe} so careless. Some might take that even farther.  I cannot believe that to come from a Christians thoughts, if his mind has been renewed, and  he is (Governed) walking in the Spirit.
  Sin and the sacrament of the alter, should not be taken lightly either. Remembrance of Him, is not a free pass.
BEP,  Amen brother, I just read your reply,  it's all good in my book, but the Word is where it truly is at and what the Gospel is all about,   "HIM".................................

Peace be with You, God bless
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble
 

Perhaps this is the reason that I do not like the word Protestant in regards to myself. I do not belong to a denomination nor to any reformed churches. I belong to Jesus Christ, one body. I gave myself to Him and He is the only one that owns me.

Amen, Pastor Roger

  My main focus was on the event of the reformation, where the real truth finally got out, all those involved in it. The martyred ones who stood their ground through "Bloody Mary" and before that time. Huss, Luther, John Wycliffe, Tyndale, and the rest, I have to give them respect for their stand against the wiles of the enemy.
  Protestant, what ever, I too know what body I belong too, His church I'm all His and He is making me to His likeness. I cannot agree with any man that goes against God's Word, or their actions that are not brought into obedience to our Lord. No matter I still better love them, its the Lords commandment. I miss the mark myself through my day, and I thank God for the mercy and grace, that He gives when I repent and learn and press on.  As it says in in Hebrews 10:23,  Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful.   {NIV}

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee.
Only Always for Christ Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Hello ggamble,

I am not protestant or Catholic. I am simply a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. My faith is not rooted in the creeds, doctrines and history of religious man, but in the Word Of God. Our practices are similar to what others would call Plymouth Brethren although I prefer to be called either brother or just Christian. For some strange reason Catholics and many Protestants feel that it is important to have a church history they can trace back for many centuries. I would guess that they mistakenly believe that the further back they can trace their religious  movement the more legitimacy it give to their religion. I am often asked how far back my church history goes. I show them my Bible and tell then my beliefs are traced to those who laid the foundation of the Church itself (the apostles and Jesus Christ). I do not need a religious institution with all its wild claims to add legitimacy to my faith, I have the very teachings of the apostles and God Himself and that is all I need.

As far as the reformation goes I see most of it in the light of Revelation 17:5

Rev 17:5 “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

I personally believe that the “THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS” is the RCC. This verse tells us that this great religious whore is a mother and her offspring are religious harlots as well. So when I see religious movements that came from the RCC I am suspicious of them. When I examine the gospel taught by men like Luther and Calvin, and see that they embraced and taught a false gospel which includes baptismal regeneration I have no more use for them than I do for their religious mother the RCC. My faith stands on the Word of God not a religious institution or men who taught false gospels that damned souls rather than save them.

Luther, and many other famous religious leaders have written religious documents contrary to the Word of God. Many give these document vast authority in their religious institutions even to the point of making void the Word of God. Most of these documents are filled with serious error that brings harm to one soul rather than help. In my opinion they have no place in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am reminded of the words of Jeremiah concerning the spiritual heath of the people in his day.

Jer 5:30 “A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31  The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?”

Many of these religious documents are filled with error and carry authority in many religious institutions, and sadly the people love to have it this way.

God bless

Pilgrim

AMEN PASTOR ROGER!

I consider it to be a waste of time to trace the history of a man, a denomination, or anything else that pertains to man. Not a single man or brick and mortar church changed or improved the perfect message given by the Apostle Paul 2,000 + years ago.

Ggamble, I could be wrong, but I think that Pilgrim is telling you that he doesn't care what Luther or any other man said, and the same would be true for most Christians. Luther and other men are not the authority for a single truth in God's Word. In fact Luther contradicts some of the teachings of the Holy Bible. That does not make him unique - he's just a man. This is just one reason why we don't promote the denominations of men on Christians Unite. We promote JESUS CHRIST and give Him all the Glory, not men. I'm just a man also, and I totally disagree with many of the things that Luther taught. As a contrast, I totally agree with EVERYTHING the Apostle Paul taught. If we wanted to concentrate on men, Luther and the Apostle Paul disagree on many issues, so I'll side with the Apostle Paul. As an example, water baptism DOES NOT save you or forgive your sins. This is just another reason why we use the Holy Bible for our discussions, NOT the denominations and teachings of men. The name of your brick and mortar church is of NO interest. The real interest regards membership in a church not made with human hands, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 4:36-38 NASB  "Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. "For in this case the saying is true, 'One sows and another reaps.' "I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor."

Amen! Tom.

Greetings BEP, and Pilgrim


  All through the Bible we see the generations or lines of man - it was important to God or it would not have been in there. And yeah, that ain't where it's at for salvation. Tom you know I know what saves us, His Grace, John 3:16.  As I have stressed before "If any man". There's a theme to history, and its root is what we can learn from it, and what not to repeat.

  My stand here was about the Word, that's the rock, Amen, but other things came out in the debate also, and I learned some things also. As for "Pilgrim", your a man also, and I'd check everything you say against the Word also. And if some of the things you expressed here in these replies is your vision of the "walking in the Spirit,  compared to what you wrote in a reply on "Born again What happened".
  I would not be setting in fellowship and getting feed some of what you yielded here.
Luther unfairly receives a free pass, your quote, Pilgrim.
  If this is how deep in respect & love to the Cross, is to you, that's not the Christ I know in the Word of God.  I will stress "there was a price,  there was a cost, that's another thing the Gospel tells me. My foundation is Him and His Word, and I'm thankful to have it.  That's what I was telling "Pilgrim", Tom
  I did not think I was crossing any lines in the forum, I'm sorry if my view may have been interpreted that way, forgive me.

  For some reason this thread has been acting funny and such, posting when I'm not done or have not selected that option, hands not even on the keys, and here it goes either gone or putting it out in post. Praise Jesus, I can press on in Him.
Pilgrim, as I said before, in the love of Jesus, may the Lord bless you in the gift of revelation.


May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Hello GGamble,

Brother, there is definitely a reason for genealogies in the Holy Bible. The primary reasons were to prove bloodline for inheritance and prophecy. If you think about this, it will become apparent and is very interesting. This would be a very large and multi-faceted study. The largest and most obvious study would involve Israel, Promises by God to Israel, and Prophecy that would be fulfilled by persons of bloodlines in Israel.

The genealogies that men do today are primarily for other purposes. Most people today have some sort of will, but it usually involves a single generation for the purposes of man. As a contrast, The genealogy of JESUS CHRIST was proven by bloodline because of Bible Prophecy. You could have a fascinating study involving the various types of inheritance in the Holy Bible, as opposed to the inheritance of man. This would be a massive study, and it would involve the whole of Bible Prophecy and the Promises of God. We are really talking about many years of difficult study. The Promises of God would have two most primary divisions: 1) Those to Israel, 2) Those to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

A beautiful TRUTH today is the Promised inheritance of the children of God. One could make some beautiful illustrations and use some of the most precious portions of the Holy Bible as references. I am a child of God, and I know about the Promises God made to His children in the Holy Bible. I also know some information about my inheritance as a child of God, but my final inheritance will be determined by God alone.

Let me just mention a few things that might be interesting for additional conversation and study:

1 - If a genealogy does not appear in the Holy Bible, does it achieve a purpose for:  a) just men   b) men and God  ??  Why?

2 - Assuming that the tracing of the history of a particular church would serve some purpose, what church would we trace and why:  a) Some named church or denomination that is brick and mortar;  b) the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST;  c)  NONE because ONLY GOD can trace the history of HIS ONE TRUE CHURCH, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 NASB  Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Hello GGamble,

Brother, I don't think that this thread comes close to violating any forum rules. More than anything else, I was simply making a statement about why we don't promote ANY denominations or brick and mortar churches of men here.

Regarding the loss of your message, I have no idea what to tell you. There are some strange things that happen on the Internet. I suggest that you use your own simple and plain text editor for composing messages that you are going to spend considerable time doing. When I say plain text editor, I'm talking about an editor that doesn't put all kinds of control characters that look like machine code in the message. Notepad works fine, but Microsoft Word and other word processors do put all kinds of characters in the message that can't be read by humans. Save your post in your plain text editor, right click your text with your mouse, hit "select all", right click your text again which should all be highlighted and hit "copy", now go to an open reply box on the forum, right click your mouse on the top-left portion of the empty forum message box and hit "paste". Now you will have your own copy that nothing on the Internet can effect. I hope this helps you some. Any small, simple, and plain text editor will work, but Windows Notepad is probably the fastest and easiest to use. You should also already have it on your system.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Psalms 111:2 NASB  Great are the works of the LORD; They are studied by all who delight in them.

Howdy, BEP

 Thank you for the idea there, I have done that sometimes on E-Sword than came over and posted. The problem might be how long I'm at the writing table, so that might be the route to take. Thank You.
Amen on the generation lines in the Bible, IT was all by God's design, and I can see your point in mans research.
I had a thought about about one reading devotionals, if that would not be somewhat in the lines of what has been being discussed in this thread? I love to read the ones I do, along with the daily Bible study. And somedays in the morning when its getting hard to get around and time is a factor, After prayer, I just get my bread from there and the verses of that devotion and try to keep that in application for the day, or should I say be alert to it, and apply it.
And I love that "Daily Light on the Daily Path Devotional" that is so rich, and really hits home morning and evening.
Well. got to ready for worship, it's been a pleasure, God bless.

Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Hello GGamble,

I really enjoy many devotions, but I don't think that folks should allow them to take the place of Bible study. If time is a major problem, I would say to spend it with the Holy Bible and let the devotions wait. I hope that what I say about this is not misunderstood. I consider Bible study to be the main meal and devotions to be a snack. BUT, many people get great ideas for full meals of Bible study from the devotions. I don't think that it is ever wise to put the things of God on the same level as so many other things are these days (i.e. quick stop, instant this or that, microwave). Do these things with everything EXCEPT the things of God.

Brother, I'm glad that you are enjoying the devotions. Many people enjoy them, but I wanted to make the point that they are not intended to take the place of Bible study. Regardless of how good the devotion is, they can never compete with the Word of God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Titus 3:4-7 NASB  But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Sower,
Thank you for your reply.
While the Catholic Church does recite the Apostles Creed,( I am not Catholic.) The end of the Creed which reads 'The holy catholic Church, 'catholic' here means, universal, not the Roman Church. Also some Churches say, the Holy Christian Church.
It is a profession of faith. Some churches say the sinners prayer. Is that in the Bible?  ;)

Do you believe in the Trinity?

God bless you,
bluelake

The Apostles Creed wasn't written to replace the Bible. The Creed was taken from the Bible as a profession of faith.
I appreciate your comments. 8)
I get the impression that many view the Creed as a Catholic prayer. They do recite it as well as many other Churches do. I'm a member of LCMS. A conservative Lutheran branch.
btw, You don't have to die for a cause in the Bible. Jesus already did it for us. Jn.19:30  :D

Sister bluelake

As Christians we all belong to Jesus Christ.
Since the Reformation we all belong to a  reformed Church. The Church that we were reformed from was the Church of Rome. :D

God bless you,
bluelake

Thanks for your reply.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in power and attributes. There  is one God, remember. :D

God bless you,
bluelake