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I'd like to know what other Christians believe about judgement, Heaven and Hell.

In particular - do you believe that when you go to hell, you are eternally condemned - and if so, why? Or do you believe that being sent to hell is God's way of giving you another chance to repent? And if so, why? Also - what do you think about the idea of purgatory?

Also - do you believe that God is infinitely merciful? Or is He only merciful some of the time? Is God's mercy restricted somehow, and if so - under what conditions is mercy not available? And why do you believe these things?

The reason I ask these things is because this is one of the largest objections I've come up against recently, while trying to evangelise those who do not share our faith.

If you're able to answer only some of these questions, that's fine. I'd appreciate it if you can support your point with Biblical references, but please don't feel as though you have to - if you just want to say what you believe, that's cool too.

That said - I'd appreciate it if you don't quote more than a few sentences from other sources, so as not to discourage others from also sharing their ideas. By all means refer to other sources, but please avoid huge quotes. Apart from that, I'd like to hear everything!

Thanks.

Frederic, all of these questions have answers in FAQ For Non-Christians. (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=5250.0)

I've had a look - but with respect, they're not all answered at all - and if they are, can anyone specifically say where? Thanks.

That said, it's good that there's debate in that thread, but a few important questions still go unresolved.

As far as I can see, there are places in the Bible which describe what Hell is, and which decribe some of the circumstances by which a person may be condemned to Hell. There are also places where this is described as "eternal punishment", which could be interpreted as meaning that the place of punishment itself will exist forever.

However, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that explicitly excludes the idea that a person may subsequently transfer from Hell to Heaven - unless anyone here knows better.

Even in Revelations, which is popularly known as the prophesy of "final judgment" - it doesn't actually use the word "final" or "last" or any related synonym to describe any judgement, thereby not excluding the possibility of a further judgement at a later date.

Forgive me for second-guessing a possible response to this - you might point out a verse like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which says that people will be punished with "everlasting" destruction. To which I'd point out John 6:47 - he who believes will have "everlasting" life - and Matthew 6:54 - he who eats and drinks the body and blood will have "eternal" life. Which is fine - but what happens when a person stops believing, or ceases to eat and drink the body and blood? Do Christians believe that as long as someone has believed for a little while, they will be okay, and that it doesn't matter what they do afterwards? Not in my experience - and a good thing too, in my opinion.

So what does this mean? Will the everlasting or eternal life that was previously granted subsequently be withdrawn? Or was eternal and everlasting life never actually granted in the first place? It raises all sorts of semantics issues.

I would suggest that perhaps eternal or everlasting life were granted - but that perhaps we haven't interpreted the meaning of words like "eternal" or "everlasting" properly in this context. What do you think about this idea?

The only way I can see of ducking this question is to raise a question about whether a person "truly" believed, or "truly" ate the body and drank the blood. Some people might buy that, others might see it as semantic fudging. I would see it as a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy.

But lets say we go with the "no true Scotsman" line anyway - who judges whether a person truly believes or not? You could say that God decides - and only God decides - which is fair enough, and I personally believe that God is the only one who does any real judgement anyway.

Trouble is, if it is only God who decides, and if we have no way of second-guessing that decision, it would mean that the Gospel's teaching cannot be taken quite as literally as we might like. It would mean that believing in the Lord, and eating the body and drinking the blood, can not be said to lead directly to eternal life in a cause-and-effect way. Jesus would have had to have said "Whoever eats my body and drinks my blood will receive eternal life - except where God decides otherwise." But Jesus didn't actually say that, did he? Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or can anyone point to Bible verses that resolve this paradox?

So in my opinion, it boils down to how strong your faith is. It would require you to have a faith that's strong enough to override this apparently overly liberal usage of the word "eternal" in the Bible, where it isn't actually intended. Now that's not a problem for me (although I do apologise if I've shaken anyone else's faith by asking these questions, please be assured that's absolutely not my intention at all) - because although I believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, I also believe that the language it is rendered into is not infallible. We are trying to understand God's message by using human language, and our capacity to do this on our own is clearly limited. So we need to pray that God will guide us in improving our understanding. Asking questions (like I'm doing now) and talking with the people around us are part of the process, but it's no substitute for prayer.

The reason I ask this is not just to improve my apologetics skills, but also to strengthen my own faith in the process. So I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed so far to help me focus my thoughts on this one, and I look forward to any replies. I pray that everyone's faith may be strengthened by this discussion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.

Frederic, follow not the doctrine of man, but the Word of God. In my sigline are my two websites. Go to them they have a wealth of information. Another website, from another on the forum with a wealth of information  is blackeyedpeas webpages. (http://www.sirinet.net/~blkidps/index.html).

Frederick,

We're really not interested in your criticism of the HOLY BIBLE.  You describe the use of the term "eternal" as being overly liberal in the Holy Bible. "Eternal" is an important term in the Holy Bible, and GOD put it there for a reason. It describes a reality that GOD doesn't need your approval to express. The meaning of "Eternal" in the Holy Bible is obvious and intentional. It means forever. The consequences of either believing the Holy Bible or dismissing it are all for you as an individual, and those consequences will be either very good or very bad for eternity.

I realize that you are here to mock the things of GOD and the HOLY BIBLE, but I'll still try to give you the Truth. Your short physical life on this earth is nothing but as a few moments in comparison to eternity. You will physically die, but your spirit will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. If you reject JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Saviour, you will spend eternity in the fires of hell. If you accept JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Saviour, you will spend eternity with JESUS in heaven. Once you physically die, it will be too late, and eternity will already be sealed for you.

Taking communion, being good, or any number of other things will have absolutely nothing to do with whether you are saved or not. You claim to be a Christian, but you have posted messages all over the forum that indicates disrespect and no reverence for JESUS CHRIST and the HOLY BIBLE. All of your questions appear to be thinly disguised as your agenda to teach Islam and just about everything but Christianity. That's not going to happen here, so your time was wasted.

You were directed to the FAQ for Non-Christians because your mockery of God and the Holy Bible will not be tolerated here. It really doesn't matter that this is called the "Debate" area. That does not mean that the mockery of God and the Holy Bible will be allowed here. That also does NOT mean that you will be allowed to preach Islam or any other false religion here.

I'm going to answer a few more of your questions, even though they are answered in the FAQ for Non-Christians in great detail. You've not shown any respect for the Holy Bible, so I will put it in plain English for you.

Heaven and hell are real places, and they are eternal - FOREVER!

ALMIGHTY GOD does NOT have infinite mercy. HE is also an ALL-POWERFUL GOD of WRATH that is beyond the imagination of man. The great flood that has already happened is just a small example. At the end of this Age of Grace, GOD will pour out WRATH on evil like the world has never known.

JESUS CHRIST dying on the Cross about 2,000 years ago is the Ultimate example of GOD'S LOVE AND MERCY. Those who reject JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour will have rejected the LOVE AND MERCY OF GOD, and they will spend eternity in the fires of hell. You and you alone will bear the consequences for accepting or rejecting JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Saviour. Accepting JESUS CHRIST is the only way to be saved from the terrible Wrath to come. You will physically die, but that won't be the end of your existence. Once you physically die, there won't be any second chances. I realize that you will probably mock these facts as you have others, but you will bear all of the consequences.

Moderator

BEP,
                                       

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AMEN ----- BROTHER
YOU GO BROTHER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,PRAISE  JESUS


ONLY,  ALWAYS FOR JESUS
ggamble

Many people claim that God wouldn't condemn people to hell for eternity because He is a loving and merciful God. Thye point that they miss here is that He has given us all a choice and it is up to us to make that choice. As Beps said, accept Him or reject Him. God has told us of the consequences of the decision that we make. He has made it quite clear in the Bible.

God does not change His mind from time to time. He is the same, unchanging. People say that He would give us all a second chance. They do not realise that He has given them many more chances than that. Every day while here in this fleshy life we all have that chance again and again. Once this fleshy body dies the choice has already been made by us.

These people do these things so that they may live the sinful life that they desire and still want to go to Heaven. As an old saying goes "God is not in Heaven saying let's make a deal. He is saying this is the deal." The choice is yours to make. Accept Him or reject Him on His terms not yours.

Make the choice right now because there may be no tomorrow and all freedom will be lost. A freedom like none that you have ever known. Turn to Him, repent of your sins and ask Him to come into your life.

Well, lets clear this up right away shall we?

We are not looking for things which might not be found in scripture to sound up our doctrine.   We are looking to see what the scripture actually says, so scratch that one off right away!   The onus is on you to point out where the Bible STATES this doctrine, otherwise it is a non biblical doctrine of man, end of story.


As for what Scripture actually says about an eternal hell...

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Here the word everlasting is used on both accounts.   Can't pick and choose which way to believe it.




Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(even though you dispute this one it will added regardless.)


Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Just to list a few.   As to your argument about what the word everlasting might mean, lets look at that for a moment shall we?



Everlasting =
aionion -

ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Barnes commentary:
aionion -
is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment




Sorry but there is no getting around this one.   If we apply scripture as it is given, Hell be no other than a real eternal place of torment, and will be experienced by unbelievers forever.



Many folks have problems with this because they think about God like we might think about a Cop or a Judge.  If you get pulled over for speeding, you might say that was a good cop because he let you off.   Or that judge was a good guy because his sentence was lenient.   Well, heres the clincher....Because God IS a good Judge, He will judge GOOD!   Not the way it is expressed above, but rather, Justly and Righteously.   There will be no breaks....Sin will be judged as Sin and Righteousness as so.   The GOOD Judge will be perfect in sentence, and no one will be able to go to the appeals court afterword.  Its final! 


Now lets get to where the rubber meets the road!   ;)



Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We have a problem.   We are guilty already, and court has not even started.    Judge Ito is out, and we've been assigned the GOOD Judge UTOH!!!


Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


The prosecution has a sound case against us, and theres no insanity pleas here.  We will face the music for sure!


But wait, there's HOPE AFTER ALL!!!!!   Mercy up Mercy, Grace upon Grace...from the no other than????  The Good Judge Himself!

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


So you see, Gods Mercy is unparalleled!   He owes us nothing, but He gave His very life for us while we were yet in our sins.   He purchased us with His Blood, He stepped out of eternity for little olé you and me who were already condemned to eternal punishment.   What Love, What Mercy What Grace!!!!!!


To sit at the defense table without Christ, is to argue our own case with the Good Judge knowing all the while we are guilty and lost, because the prosecutions case is ROCK SOLID.    There will be no weeks of testimony about DNA evidence to muttle up the case.   So what to do?  Make a plea bargain before trial begins!!!!   ;)    Plea our guilt and sin to the Merciful God of Heaven and allow Him to sit in our defense!   Jesus is the only hope for an eternity of Life with God.  Without Him, we are guilty as charged and will be sentenced accordingly.     


And the defense makes the closing case......"If Christ paid for your sin, let eternal Life Begin" 


 



Absolutely!  For Him to give His life on our behalf is unthinkable!


 

Plain and simple.   When it is refused and rejected!




Because thats what His word says.


Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The thought should not be "will there be a second chance in Hell", its what can I do to know this Lord who gave His life for me to show how much He loved me, even though I deserve an eternity hell.

And thats the truth friend!

Grace and Peace!

While Christians are saved from Hell, those who go there are indeed eternally condemned. Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, and is now also for those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


There is no second chance after Hell. That is why Scripture repeats again and again "Today , if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts".


There is no such place. There is Hades, where unredeemed souls go after death, and there is Hell -- the Lake of Fire, which is only after the Great White Throne Judgment of all those found in Hades.


God is infinitely merciful. But those who deliberately reject His mercy and His salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ remove themselves from His mercy, and place themselves under His wrath (Jn.3:36).


While God's mercy is never restricted, it can only be effective for those who repent and receive Christ as Lord and Savior. The reason we belive these things is because Scripture teaches them. Unless the blood of Christ has been applied to a sinner's soul, he will be subject to God's judgment.

This is pictured for us in the Passover when Israel was in Egypt. The blood of a lamb had to be applied to the doorposts and lintel of every home which would be spared from God's judgment.

A careful study of the New Testament will resolve all your questions. God's grace is unlimited, but men who mock, reject, ignore or despise God's salvation automatically remove themselves from God's grace. Even so, God's grace is such that He gives mockers many opportunities to repent, instead of only one.

AMEN BROTHERS!

I am reminded of several incredibly beautiful Bible studies in reading this thread. The ones I'm thinking about tie the entire Holy Bible together as evidence that it is The WORD OF GOD. I only want to mention just one right now, the one I am most thankful for. The Old Testament Prophets foretold the First Coming of JESUS CHRIST. Prophecy was fulfilled perfectly in the absolute reality of GOD made manifest in the flesh, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever.

JESUS CHRIST was Holy and without sin, yet He was sentenced to be crucified on a Cross. They executed the Lord of Glory, and JESUS became the only perfect and complete sacrifice to save mankind from the curse of sin and death. The SON OF GOD had been offered once for all as a GIFT that no man could ever earn or deserve. GOD THE FATHER raised his SON from the dead on the third day, and JESUS CHRIST would be seen and heard by many witnesses. JESUS told those who loved Him that HE would go where they couldn't follow then, but HE promised to send another COMFORTER before HE ascended back to Heaven. The SON OF GOD kept His promise perfectly and sent GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT as the COMFORTER He promised. The fulness and absolute reality of the Holy GODHEAD was revealed to those who loved JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour. This was an overwhelming TRUTH about the full Might, Majesty, Love, and Mercy of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - YET ONE ALMIGHTY GOD!

Those who put their faith and trust in JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Saviour today are still overwhelmed about the absolute TRUTH and REALITY of ALMIGHTY GOD. The THREE HOLY PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD reveal the awesome TRUTH of eternity past and eternity future - YET THE THREE ARE ONE! All of the following about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit reveal the greatest mysteries of the Holy Bible and the universe:

1 - Each ONE, individually, has no beginning and has no end.

2 - Each ONE, individually, is the CREATOR, not the created.

3 - Each ONE, individually, is GOD.

4 - Man did NOT evolve from anything else. Man was created by GOD and is a unique part of CREATION in that man was created in the IMAGE OF GOD. Genesis 1:26 NASB  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Please notice that the plural nature of GOD is revealed even in Genesis: "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"

5 - There are three parts to man: body, soul, and spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Man is completely unique and distinct from animals because man has God-consciousness and is accountable to GOD. So, "Tri-unity" describes man and also describes GOD: three distinct and individual pportions are ONE.

6 - Man being created in the image of GOD does not hint that man is Holy like GOD. GOD created man as an intelligent being with the ability to know and choose between right and wrong. Man many times chooses wrong and these are sins against GOD, our CREATOR.

7 - GOD hates sin and gives severe punishment for sin. Man is in desperate need of a Saviour who can rescue us from the eternal consequences of sin. God the Father knows this, so He sent His Son, JESUS CHRIST, to die on the Cross for us and in our place. Romans 6:23 NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 1:23 NASB  "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Actually, the following is taken from a post I just entered under another topic as part of a response to that topic, but since it is applicable to this topic as well, I will go ahead and post portions of it here also:

There are many in mainstream Christianity have adopted the pagan belief that a soul is immortal.  Plato also embellished on this unbiblical idea.  This is what many churches ignorantly teach out of tradition.

However, scripture teaches that man is MORTAL, not immortal.  I Timothy 6:16 clearly states that ONLY GOD has immortality.  Anything he created, he can destroy (Matthew 10:28).  He GAVE Jesus Christ immortality when he raised him to life from the grave, just like he will give all believers immortality when Christ returns (I Corinthians 15:51-54; I Thessalonians 4:16-17).  Satan will be destroyed because he is not immortal (Ezekiel 28:18-19; Isaiah 14:15-16)

Also, the Bible clearly tells us that no one is heaven right now because all "sleep":

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish (Psalm 146:4)

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence (Psalm 115:17) 

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Psalm 6: 5)

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2:29). "For David is not ascended into the heavens..." (Acts 2:34)

The dead have no knowledge of the passage of time. 

No one is in a fiery place some call "hell" right now either.  All sleep.

Understanding what scripture teaches about the first "death" ("…It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27), helps us to understand the significance of the resurrection.  I Corinthians 15 tells us that Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection and then those at His coming.  Revelation 20:4-5 tells us that believers will be of the first resurrection at Christ's coming, then there will be a resurrection of the "rest of the dead" at the end of the millennium.  Until one's resurrection (whichever one is in), he sleeps and is not aware of anything.  It will be as if we died, then immediately were made alive again.

Also, there is not one shred of evidence in scripture that gives any indication of ANYONE serving God in heaven right now, other than the holy angels and Jesus Christ.  In fact, scripture says that we will reign with Christ ON EARTH.  That is the newly glorified saint's first assignment...to rule and reign with Christ on earth.  There are no PRIOR assignments ever mentioned in all of scripture. 

NO MAN shall receive the promise UNTIL Christ returns:  "These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise"! (Heb. 11:40).

"NO MAN HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13)

So, scripture does not teach that unbelievers "go to hell" at death, or that believers "go to heaven" at death. 

Scripture does not teach that anyone "goes to hell".  Scripture DOES teach that the unbelieving are destroyed one day in the lake of fire, along with death itself (I Corinthians 15:25-26; Revelation 20:14-15; Malachi 4:1-4; Ezekiel 28:18-19)

The options of mankind are not eternal life in heaven or eternal life in hell, but rather, as scripture teaches, ETERNAL LIFE or DEATH.

Eternal life is a GIFT for those who believe, not a "given" for all that come into existence after an egg and sperm unite.  "For the wages of sin is DEATH (not live torture into the eons), but the GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord."  Also, John 3:16 clearly delineates man's options, which are: a)to perish (die, cease to exist) or b)to have eternal life: 

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE. 

The God I believe and trust and have faith in is not a sadist.  Scripture makes it very clear that He is not willing that ANY should perish, but anyone who does reject Him will perish (die), and are put out of existence forever. 

It is confusing to some to reconcile the words "everlasting punishment" with total abolishment of life (DEATH).  This simply means that the punishment of death can never be undone.  The EFFECTS of death are forever.  So, it is not endless punish-ING, but rather a punish-MENT, the EFFECTS of which will be everlasting.

I think that you need to read the entire Bible, not just the portions that you want to believe.

Psa 9:17  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psa 55:15  Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Isa 5:14  Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Mat 5:29  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


Mat 23:33  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Scripture is clear about the fact that Hell is a place of fiery torment (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43-48; Matthew 3:12; 5:22; 13:40-42, 49-50; 18:8-9; 25:41; Luke 16: 19-31; John 15:6; Revelation 14:10; 19:20; 20:10, 14-15; 21:8).

 In fact, the ungodly man (one who goes to hell) "does not seek God" (Psalm 10:4; 14:2; Romans 3:11); "God is in none of his thoughts" (Psalm 10:4). Secondly, hell fire by saying it is "not fire." Yet, Scripture is very clear about the fire of hell. In fact, the rich man in "Hades" Luke 16:24 said, "I am tormented in this flame."

Hmm, Paul certainly does not agree with this notion as you have presented it.


Phi 1:21  For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Phi 1:22  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
Phi 1:23  But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; :)
Phi 1:24  yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.


Paul speaks of his desire to depart and be with Christ, rather than remaining in the flesh.   No slumbering gain to speak of here  :)    He knew his destination at death was to be with Christ!



2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Another key passage about our transition from this life to the next.  Granted, our resurrected bodies wont be known until the resurrection, but again this with other passages makes things crystal clear regarding a believers whereabouts after death.





Well, lets just say you can't get there from here after reading Paul's previous passages.




Yes it surely does, but it also says....

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Where did He go?  His Fathers house, which is where He says we are going (to be with Him where He IS) when He comes again and receives us to Himself.   Again, can't get there from here, if we are....well....HERE on earth  :o  ;)     Amazing how the light of scripture makes clear these things when we just accept what it says on a whole.




Pastor Roger and Dreamweaver have already addressed the other key points well, so I wont address those.   I pray that you take this with love and search these things out for yourself prayerfully.   


Love in Christ!

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

It is obvious that the lost and the babes in Christ get confused when the subject is life and death. Men naturally think about these physical bodies when they consider life and death. Christians, especially those with some maturity, consider spiritual life and glorified bodies. Mature Christians certainly have no desire to live in the flesh of the bodies we currently have.

It's very sad that some claiming to be Christians deny the TRUTHS of the Holy Bible. The "WHY?" is really pretty simple: the devil doesn't want people to believe there is a heaven, hell, or accountability to GOD. The devil doesn't want people to feel any urgency about considering peace with God. That's why we have so many people preaching and teaching who don't have a clue about the Holy Bible. I would conclude that the false teachers are either LOST or confused so totally that they would be doing God a favor by remaining quiet until they've spent much longer than 10 minutes studying the Holy Bible.

Lampstand, I have no idea whether you are lost or saved, but I can say with absolute certainty that you have no business trying to preach or teach from the Holy Bible right now. Lampstand, start with JESUS and the Cross, and first try to understand why JESUS died on the Cross for us. PLEASE! - ask questions about why confuses you instead of trying to preach or teach about what confuses you. NOTE:  If you don't have JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Saviour, you won't understand many of the portions of Scripture you are trying to teach. Many portions of Scripture are understood only with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in the hearts of the children of God. The lost don't have the Holy Spirit of God living in their hearts, so they make a mess out of understanding many portions of God's Word.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Proverbs 16:16 NASB  How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver.

AMEN 2T!

Actually, the Bible states that no man has as yet 'Ascended into heaven' - being in Christ means living in His Word.  In Hebrews 11:39-40 it states that 'And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promises:  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'  Bear in mind that he is talking about the patriarchs. The Bible also states that we will see Him in His glory at the same time - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

And at that time Jesus spoke those words, no man had YET acsended into heaven  ;)   

Hello Dandirom,

Christians who have died do not have the Glorified body yet that is Promised by God. BUT, Christians who die have an immediate Promise that is fulfilled right now: "absent from the body, present with the Lord." I must also add that the Promise of the Glorified body will be fulfilled perfectly and completely at God's appointed time.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:8-9 NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Amen Mr BEP

Add another AMEN!!

I notice that the one who started this thread is somewhat absent......but here goes anyway.

First, I'll recommend reading   this study on hell (http://www.john812.com/hell.htm) so that you can get a real grasp on the concept.
Second, much of what you have to say smacks of universalist thought patterns, so I'll recommend   this study  (http://www.john812.com/universal.htm) on the slippery slopes of universalism.

Lastly, you say that there is NO WHERE in scripture that specifically precludes the possiblity of someone moving from hell to heaven.  What bible are you reading?

Luk 16:24   And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25   But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26   And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

and in
Rev 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and then
Rev 21:27   And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
and finally
Rev 22:11   He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

All of which speak directly to the issue of the CULMINATION (finish, end, final, no more, this is it) of human history.

Don't attempt to interject the arguments of logic and fallacy unless you intend to be absolutely logical yourself.

BEP, PR, and all moderators:

I would respectfully suggest that you might conisder changing your screen names to SELSUN BLUE 1, SELSUN BLUE 2, etc.

Then you'll really, truly, absolutely be FLAKE REMOVERS!!  ;D

Hi Brother Hank,

Amen brother.

Yes the person that started this thread is no longer with us. Your posts on these subjects are still most welcome and very insightful. I for one thank you and pray that it will help others to understand the truth in the word of God much better.

Good point!

;D ;D ;D ;D

Hello Evangelist,

First, AMEN on your post, and I plan to enjoy the studies you provided links for. Thank you Brother Hank!

I don't think it was a coincidence that you mentioned "Universalists" this morning. It might surprise you to know that we even discussed "Universalists" by PM this morning. We are hearing more and more about this by the day. I'm wondering if this could be the precursor for the One World Religion mentioned in Bible Prophecy. I can tell you for positive that the Universalist teaching makes me sad, not for me but for all of the lost and the babes in Christ who will be hooked with this garbage. It appears to be gaining momentum by the minute, and the only defense is a substantial foundation in God's Word.

Please - I'm not trying to say anything that brags about more mature Christians and belittles the lost and the babes in Christ. Brother Hank, you know what my intentions are. We all know many Christians who labor almost continually to make sure that the TRUTH is distributed and easily available. Brother Hank, you are one of those laborers and I give thanks for everyone who feels a burden to help the lost and build up the babes in Christ. The devil is loose and working overtime to snare and devour as many as he can. This makes me very sad. On the other side of the coin, I give thanks that God is giving many Christians the strength and guidance to do His Will in these possible last days of the Age of Grace.

By the way, thanks for the laugh about "Selsun Blue" - I needed that laugh. ;D  What if we just called ourselves the "Selsun Blue Squad"?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:14-19 NASB  For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

 :)I am going to keep this simple the Bible says chose you this day who you will serve.  Once you die your chances are over.  Here on Earth is your only chance. 8)