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I'm confused about something (again... :) )

I was reading the book of 1 Timothy last night and came across the verses:

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression (1 Timothy 2:13,14).

What troubles me is the fact that Adam WAS deceived, albeit by Eve, but deceived nonetheless. Wasn't he?

-Samson

When you read that passage take it into context he was probable mentioning sin and how it first came into the world Eve was the first to be deceived and Adam next but because Adam represented all of humanity sin was attributed to Adam. It was probably referring to who was first deceived because its probably talking about sin.

The context is that because Eve was deceived and Adam just followed her, we shouldn't allow women (who are so easily deceived proven by the example of Eve) to lead men (astray) in the church.

  Smartinez: I believe Paul's statement that
adam was not deceived means that Adam knew full well what was at stake when he took the fruit. Eve was beguiled by satan and ignorant of what was at stake. We fell in Adam rather than Eve because Adam (not Eve) was our federal head, a term of legal import which is in force because it is an expression of God's attrribute of justice. Therefore, we fell from God because of Adam's sin BUT BUT! BUT! The Lord Jesus Christ is the second Adam, the second federal head
(He is the head of the church, remember), As Adam was in the world with those in him, his children, so Christ came into the world, having in Himself those "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world." For that reason, Christ is termed the
"Everlasting Father" in Isaiah chapter nine. Unlike Adam, however, Christ worked righteousness for those in Him-called
His seed in Isaiah 53-and brought life to ALL THOSE CHOSEN IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. For all those imn him, Adam brought death. Foe all those in Him, Christ brought life. As surely as his children died in Adam, even so,ALL in Christ live because of His righteousness.
Remember Jesus saying to John the Baptist, "suffer it to be so now, for thus it becomes US (caps mine) to fulfill all righteousness"? Well, Smartinez, that righteousness which He
fulfilled is the same righteousness inwhich those who are "accepted in the beloved" shall stand before Him for judgment on that great day. In Him we are accepted. Let us therefore cast ALL or hope on Him alone. As the Bible says, He will sustain us. We know already that the righteousness which we have in Him is sufficient, because on the basis of it, Christ has been raised from death, and received into the heavens. Praise ye the Lord!

Yes that's right Adam knew full well what would happen so he was not decieved.  Only correction at the moment is Jeus is not the second Adam but the Last Adam.

Adam was not deceived because God gave him this commandment;

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Gen 2:17


So if Adfam was not deceived, then he trangressed the commandment knowingly and willingly.

The result is stated in Romans 5;

12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (refering to Jesus) was made a life giving spirit.  1 Cor 15:45


Petro

Wasn't that same commandment given to Eve? She knew about it:

Genesis-
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

Then she, TOO, transgressed willingly, didn't she? They were either both deceived (Eve by the serpent, Adam by Eve) or they both transgressed knowingly and willingly, no?

Paul seems to indicate a lesser role for the female based on the fact that Adam was not deceived but he was, wasn't he? If not, then neither was Eve, was she?

I'm sincerely trying to figure this one out...

-Samson

The nscripture is silent, in that there is nothingm said about God, explicitly giving her the same command.  If the scriopture is true, concerning Adam being her head ( 1 Cor 11:3)


It appears to me Adam, never conveyed to her, exactly what God had commanded him not to do, concerning the fruit of  the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  his is a common thing, husbands fail to lead their wives and families, in spiritual matters.


If she was deceived, and the scripture seems to confirm this, then her sin is one of ignorance.


Adam was judged also, for "hearkening unto the voice of his wife, instead of God's. It was a willing disobedience to the command of God.

The woman was judged at Gen 3:16, after claiming to have been beguiled by the serpent.

So, it isn't Paul who "indicated a lesser role" for the woman, he simply makes the point, the man was not decived while the woman was.

Petro

Very true.

There was no deception, but transgression. Adam knew full well what God had commanded and the consequences but he chose to disobey. And sin entered the world.

The verse quoted says Eve was the one deceived, Then she transgressed.
The deception:?
 
" Genesis 3:4.  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 5.  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
 6.  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Genesis 3:1.  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
 2.  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
 3.  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

James 1:14-15            But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.(express the intensity with which desire lures an individual) Then,when desire has conceived,(suggests the image of a persons will bending toward and finally seizing the evil)it gives birth to sin,and sin,when full grown(suggests bringing a goal to completion...that sin has reached its maturity)brings forth death.

ollie,

Right, but don't forget;

....sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jesus died for all who are dead in sin and tresspass, it is written;

..............if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Cor 5:14; there are no special deals, where some are not dead
who die, and are saved anyway.

ALL WHOM THE SAVIOR DIED FOR WERE DEAD IN SIN AND TRESSPASS this includes Adam and Eve..

Blessings,
Petro

To make it perfectly clear, the act of eating the fruit, was rebellion against God, and this is the root of  all sin of it is called disobedience.

God commands every man everywhere to repent.

Only those who desire to repent, are  drawen (taught) by God,  and ever come to repentance, and receive the faith required to be saved.

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

Samuel the prophet said to King Saul;

Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.  (1 Sam 15:22-23)

Even if God would have commanded not to touch the fruit, they both touched it, and would have been in transgression, but we know that the external appesarance, is not what corrupts a person, but the thoughts and evil come from within.

To quote Jesus;

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(Mat 15:17-19)


It begins and ends as, faithful one has stated according to James 1:14-5.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Mr. 5020,

Welcome to the forum.



I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, however..

Some people confuse themselves by considering a theory like the one you put forth, the problem is that the first Adam was created a living soul, while the Last Adam became a (quickening)Life Giving Spirit according to (1 Cor 15:45)

There, is quite a difference, since if there is any theorizing, this theory ends, at the death of the first Adam, he would have had to die for his own sin, had it not been for the Last Adam.

So, the first Adam, could never have died for anyones elses sin/s, because, after his death, comes his judgementy.

Thank God for the NT, since it is at the genealogies in the Gospels, we find Adam's transgression covered by the shed blood of the last Adam, he (the first Adam, died) and the last Adam died for all who are dead because of sin, that they might be raised in the power of God, who has chosen those whom He will save from before the foundations of the worlds.

Anyhow, such a theory dies on the vine because it cannot be developed beyond this point..the point of the death of the first Adam.

Thanks for your contribution..

God Bless,

Petro

Thank you.   :)


I, in no way, was implying that Adam died for Eve's sin (or anyone else's for that matter).  To say that, I believe, would be heresy.  I am simply saying that he is a type of Christ.  He loved his bride so much that he did not want to live without her, thus he gave up his life (i.e. Jesus).

Do you have any other reasons he would have taken and eaten the fruit?

Mr5020,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you believed this, far out idea.

I could tell, from the way you began your post you didn't believe this at all.

I guess I really hadn't given this much thought, I don't know that Adam, nesecarily loved Eve more than God, but I can see, that sin, in it's embroynic stage, requires some action, in order to come to fruitition;

Eve saw, that the tree was good for food, pleasant to the eyes, to be desired, to make one wise, so she took and did eat.

I suspect Adam did exactly the same thing when she gave him to eat the fruit, he was drawn away of his own lust, and enticed, Then when lust had conceived, it brought forth sin: and sin, when it was finished, brought forth death, to the entire human race.

If this is true, as James, has written it, then Eve wasn't the focus of his lust (in this case), he was the center of himself, I suspect he was there beside Eve, when the serpent said;

Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.  (vs 4-5)

He wanted to be like God, knowing good and evil.

Actually what I see here is that Adam exhibited sefishness, when he chose to disobey God.

No I don't see, Eve was in his thinking at all, when he did this things, he gave up eternal life with God, for what he perceived was knowledge, and the ability to see what was hidden from him.

The fact is he died spiritually that moment and became alive to self, and blind to God and the things of God.

We have to die to self in order to do the will of God.

In so doing we are born again of the will of God. (Jhn 1:13)

Blessings,

Petro

To do the will of God the Father is what Jesus said;

 the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Those that don't do the will of God, are not related to Him.

again,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And finally,

My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Blessings,
Petro

I see, i didn't make the point I desired in my last post at reply #17, so I have edited it to read as follows:

The fact is he died spiritually that moment and became alive to self, and blind to God and the things of God.

We have to die to self in order to do the will of God.

In so doing we are born again of the will of God. (Jhn 1:13)

Blessings,

Petro

1) It could be argued that Adams sin was WORSE.
    For Eve was decived.
    Adam just LISTENED TO HIS WIFE!
 2) Jesus is called the SECOND ADAM.
Because there was NOONE like unto the FIRST AFTER him till CHRIST.
He is called the LAST Adam to show that there will not be ANY AFTER Him like unto the first.
Adam because the First Adam was the 'father' of THIS or first generation.
Who have "living souls"
Jesus because He is like unto the first the 'father' of the LAST generarion.
Who have been QUICKNED by His Spirit.