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I think that in my journey towards faith, I have gone through a pantheistic phase, so I'd like to find out your opinions on this.

I had progressed from being an atheist to being a pantheist when I came to try to understand the concept of the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Perhaps that doesn't surprise you, because while I was still an atheist, I didn't see any point in trying to understand it.

Here's how I see the debate on pantheism. Advocates seem to say that pantheism encourages you to have more respect for nature and environmental issues than traditional Christianity, and I agree that would be a good thing. But on the other hand, critics of pantheism say that it can encourage materialism - because it teaches that God exists in that cabinet you bought from Ikea - or the money that paid for it - or even worse, that line of cocaine you're about to snort. And I agree that would be a bad thing. So I think I can see both points of view.

Forgive me if it seems like I'm oversimplifying things, my purpose is not to construct a straw man. If anyone has any other reasons for or criticisms of pantheism, I'd very much like to hear them.

The reason I ask this is because I like to think I've moved on a bit from simplistic pantheism. Believing in God the Father as the creator is slightly different from believing that God exists in everything, because it means that you can happily believe that God doesn't exist in that line of cocaine. All the same, God still created it, in the same way that God created the angel that fell, I think you know who I'm talking about. So perhaps it might cause some problems or confusion for some people, but I don't think it bothers me. If you lack faith, and you're looking for reasons to support your lack of faith, you'll always be able to find them - after all, besides cocaine and Satan, why did God create the forbidden fruit? You could go round in circles on that one, but I think my faith has got past that point.

The thing that troubles me is that my interpretation of the Trinity still seems to be a bit pantheistic, or have some common ground with pantheism.

Recently I've been a bit depressed. Fortunately I hit upon 2 Corinthians 1:8-11 and the book of Ecclesiates, so I believe that depression can be a sign from God that you don't have enough faith in God.

However - what does having faith in God actually mean? Is it possible to have faith in God without having faith in the people around you? Because I believe that to have faith in God, you need to have faith that the power of the Holy Spirit is able to act through communities that meet in the name of Jesus - amongst other things. And if you don't have faith that God is able to work through your church fellowship, then, by definition, you don't have faith in God at all.

Furthermore - a person who is self-righteous and who passes judgement on others is a person who is looking for reasons not to have faith in the ability of God to work through their community, and shut themselves off from the world - which is most definitely not what God wants us to do, in my opinion.

However, to me, the idea of having faith in God's power to work through communities seems remarkably close to faith in those communities themselves - and therefore close to the pantheistic "communities for the sake of it" beliefs that I started to form for myself before I started to attend church. Indeed, had it not been for those beliefs, I might never have started attending church in the first place.

This thought bothers me. Have I lost my way? Have I missed the point? How much common ground does Trinitarian Christianity have with pantheism anyway? On the other hand, perhaps I'm labelling a set of beliefs as "pantheism" when they're not really pantheism at all. What's your slant on God's creation of the Devil, drugs and material trappings? I assume you don't think that environmental issues are overstated by those who call themselves witches and pagans - or do you? Do you feel that Christianity's alleged disregard for the environment has been exaggerated, perhaps by those who like to cast the first stone? If so, why? Thanks.

Hi Frederic,

You cover a very wide range of different subjects here. Yes, they are tied in together yet they are still different subjects.

Let's tackle the subject of what pantheism is first of all. It is the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently. This doctrine equates God with the forces and laws of the universe instead of the Biblical view that God is in control of those forces and makes the laws of the universe.

This belief has nothing to do with the Trinity. It is full of paganistic beliefs that reduce the diety of God. It is not a part of Christianity and will not be taught here at Christians Unite.

As for a better understanding of the Trinity, there are many threads here already started on this that I am sure will help you understand it better. Please read them.

Hello Frederick Dalton,

Christianity shares ZERO common ground with pantheism. Pantheism is the acceptance and toleration of all gods with a little "g", including its like rocks and idols. As a result, pantheism is pretty rare. Beyond there being no common ground between pantheism and Christianity, there is NO comparison between pantheism and Christianity. In fact, they are opposites.

A Christian can enjoy nature and care for the environment unless they make nature and the environment as their god. The worship of nature, the environment, and other its would be things of the devil, not GOD. The devil would love it if people would make gods out of trees, rocks, alcohol, drugs, and anything except ALMIGHTY GOD.

Reference environmental issues, some who worship false gods make some very curious statements about Christians. To say that Christians don't worship trees and nature does NOT mean that Christians want to destroy nature. Christians don't make trees, rocks, and other objects of nature gods because our ONLY GOD IS ALMIGHTY GOD - CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. ALMIGHTY GOD lives and is an all-powerful reality, so we would never compare GOD to a tree or a rock, nor would we give any acceptance or toleration of any pagan god or other false gods. In short, a pantheist is NOT a Christian.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Part of the darkness spoken of above is the worship of false gods and idols. Darkness is also the love and practice of evil that is known as sin in the Holy Bible. The opposite is the LIGHT of the world, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour!

Some good replies, thanks.

I forgot to mention this earlier - but the other reason I'm interested in this subject is because I have a friend who is a bit of a new-ager, I'd like to evangelise him, and I've been pleasantly surprised recently about how much curiosity he's been showing about Christianity. Thing is, sometimes I don't know how to answer - and I'm not quite able to hook him up with a church community yet - believe me I've tried!

So I think it might be helpful for me to find any Bible verses that speak of respect for nature, maybe pointing these out might swing the new-ager round a bit. Sure I've got some pretty good concordances but I'd appreciate any pointers from you good people too. Thanks. :)

Frederick,

Respect for nature is not the point or purpose of the Holy Bible. It's best to just tell the TRUTH when you witness to people. The worship of other gods is evil and of the devil. There is no room for other gods in the Holy Bible except to describe evil and things associated with the devil. We witness about JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS, not trees and rocks. If you aren't ready to forget about trees and rocks, you aren't ready to witness to someone about JESUS CHRIST. In fact, if you wish to mix trees and rocks with JESUS CHRIST, it would be best that you not witness to anyone at all. It doesn't sound like you know JESUS CHRIST at all, or you wouldn't be trying to shift the focus back to trees, rocks, and false gods. So, you need to worry about YOU first.

You are at the right place to learn about JESUS CHRIST. You are in the wrong place to learn about trees, rocks, pagan gods, allah, and other false gods. False gods are not worshiped here, and information about false gods is not given or shared here. JESUS CHRIST is the only way for Salvation! You being good or you being nice to trees and rocks gets you absolutely NOTHING. If you want to know about JESUS and how to be Saved, many of us will share with you.

Tom

Hmm - now that poses something of a difficulty. You see, my local church does encourage us to evangelise - they also teach us that we might learn things about our own faith in the process, and that it's good to talk about these things within the church community.

Furthermore, it's awkward that I'm in two separate circles of friends. I would be absolutely delighted if my non-believing friends accepted the faith and started attending church - particularly if it's the same church that I attend, although I realise that's not practical for all of them, due to distance.

I have a very real experience of healing, so my faith in God is not in any doubt.

So what's the solution? Dump my non-believing friends? I don't want to do that. If I was dumped by my friends when I was a non-believer, then I would never have come to faith in the first place.

Sure, the people at church do concede that evangelising new-agers can be difficult, and even warn that you might get your fingers burnt in the process. But they still encourage us to evangelise the people around us. They tell us that the friendships and relationships we have, both within and beyond the local church, are gifts given by God. Are they wrong? I don't think so, because they seem to find Bible references to support it.

Like you suggest, though, perhaps I could put the outward evangelism on hold for a while. Many will agree that no-one's Bible study is ever complete, however, so how do you decide when you've got to the right level? Is there any such thing as "the right level"?

Still, that's not the biggest problem. The real issue is that - thanks to God - I have sparked curiosity in some people about Christianity, who never thought about it before.

There's one man in particular who I count as a friend - and no disrespect to him, but he holds some awfully crazy conspiracy theories. Not so crazy that he needs to be locked up, in my opinion, but I certainly believe he can be healed by a faith that he currently does not have. His ideas are generally new-agey, though unfortunately he holds a bit of a chip on his shoulder about a bad experience with a church community in the past.

So when he asks me questions about the faith - what do I say to him?

Now I could tell him to check out his local church, but unfortunately he won't do it, due to his traumatic experiences. However, he trusts me as a friend, and therefore I'm in a far better position to evangelise him than anyone else.

Do I pretend that I've changed my mind, I'm no longer Christian after all? I think not! I could tell him that I'm not really qualified to discuss it - but then, who is? He doesn't seem to trust anyone apart from me - yet - though give it time, there have been some positive signs about him approaching others for discussion lately. But point is, I don't want to push it, because we might lose him completely. The fact that he trusts me, at least, is a gift that I am able to offer to God.

So I must pray for God to give me guidance on this one. If anyone has any testimonies of evangelising new-agers, I'd be very grateful if you could share them, thanks.

Frederick,

If you think that you get to heaven by being good, I wouldn't know what kind of Christian group you associate with. I just read one post that was deleted that indicates you have a hard time seeing the difference between Islam and Christianity. That, coupled with the pantheism thread and other information leads me to believe that you don't know anything about Christians.

I highly recommend the "FAQ for Non-Christians" in the Apologetics Area. It is a sticky subject and should be near the top. It will answer many questions that you have asked in several areas, plus some other questions that are really more important that you haven't asked yet. You are welcome to copy and take all the material you wish, study it, and use it. The same is true for excellent material all over the forum, but I think that the FAQ for Non-Christians would be the best place to start.

Tom