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BrotherJim,

I see that you locked the topic so that nobody could answer your last post. I can certainly understand why you would wish to do this, but it won't work.

Please see the following post as an answer. I don't think you can lock this one since I started it, so everyone else is welcome to post on the same subject.

Hello BrotherJim,

I didn't check all of the Scripture you quoted, but you should have. They are all beautiful portions of Scripture, but they don't pertain to the subject thread, "What Saves Us."

I would conclude one of two things: (1) you don't have a clue what I John is about; (2) you twisted some Scriptures to fit your purpose. I really don't know which one, but not listing the chapter and verse adds more questions. In either case, quoting these Scriptures as pertaining to Salvation is false teaching that could easily deceive and confuse one who is not grounded in the Word. Your previous messages are consistent with this one.

The preface of I John and other portions make it clear that the hearers are believers. One does not have to read far before discovering the purpose and subject matter. The purpose and subject matter is not limited to the following:

1 - The walk of the believer and his or her testimony for Christ in everything they do.
2 - How to increase the quantity and quality of fellowship between the believer and Christ, and in that endeavor increase the quantity and quality of fellowship between the believer and other believers.
3 - Increasing the joy and happiness of a Christian by living a life that opens communion with Christ.
4 - Living a life that testifies and serves as an example to others the truth of Salvation.
5 - Pressing for the denial of sin and walking in the LIGHT, avoiding darkness.
6 - To be humbled by sin and confess it for forgiveness.
7 - Who the believer is to have fellowship with and the reason why many things should be avoided.
8 - To enjoy the fulness and riches of a walk in the spirit.

If the reader didn't discover the above facts, he or she would find what appears to be numerous contradictions in the same Epistle. See the following example:

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

As opposed to:

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

In conclusion, your teaching is false. You deny the Gospel of the Grace of God.

BrotherJim,

The below is an exact quote of your last message on the subject of "What Saves Us" before you locked the thread. This might be handy for reference purposes.

As odd as it may seem, I wonder if this could be a debate for the same things-while grace saves us, if it really is grace, it is evidenced by works. So we cannot be saved by anything but grace, but if there are no works, if we do not uphold the law, it is not really grace and we are therefore not saved. But of course I didn't do any searches on anyone's posts, so I'm just going by what I see here.  :)

Oklahoma Howdy to Whitehorse,

You don't have to do much of a search to see the posts of the discussion. BrotherJim made a few posts under "What Saves Us", locked the thread, and left.

Regarding debate, I didn't see one. I believe in the Gospel of God's Grace, plain and simple. The definition of Grace in this context is also quite simple, although one could easily write a book on God's Grace. "Grace" is undeserved, unearned, and is a GIFT. The beginning and eternity of Salvation is GRACE. The payment for Salvation is the precious BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR.

Good works and obedience of God are from the grateful heart of a believer. They are also part of the joy of the believer that causes greater fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. Good works and obedience do NOT earn or maintain Salvation. If good works and obedience earned or maintained Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was in vain.

I'm thinking about one event that clearly explains Salvation by faith and HIS GRACE. The man I am thinking about lead a horrible life of sin and didn't have even one good work. He was the thief hanging on a cross next to Jesus.

I would quote the beautiful portions of Scripture in I John to any Christian who wishes to experience the real joy and fullness of fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. All of the Glory goes to God for all Christians who experience this fullness. For those who do, I can assure you they don't brag or boast about their good works and obedience. The fullness is God's Grace, not self.

In Christ.

Hi, BEP. I'm just wondering if you see a difference between what saves and what is required for salvation.

Oklahoma Howdy to Whitehorse,

You'll have to be a little bit more specific. I'm not sure what you are thinking about, but God's Grace and faith are the beginning and eternity of Salvation. God's Grace is manifested in HIS GIFT, HIS LOVE, the precious BLOOD OF JESUS ON THE CROSS. What saves becomes Salvation if I have faith and believe in it, so they appear to be one and the same.

"I am saved" and "I have Salvation" are the same statement said two different ways. The requirements and cause are both the same. I would have a different answer if you asked what leads to greater joy and fullness of fellowship with our Lord and Saviour.

In Christ.

Well, it's the blood that saves, but there are real conversions and false ones. It's really important to distinguish between the two, which is why the word tells us to test ourselves and see if we are in the faith. So the blood is what saves. Grace alone. Through faith alone.

But now there is the question: which is true salvation, and which is not? The Bible stresses in several places that we are to examine ourselves.

Works are a manifestation of the kind of faith that is real. Faith without works is dead. This verse cannot be ignored. If we do not have works, we do not have the *blood* that alone can save. You're absolutely right-it's an important distinction to make: Works cannot save. The blood does. But the blood is always accompanied by works.

Take the parable of the wedding feast. A man shows up without wedding clothes, and he is lost. Did he believe? Sure, he was at the feast. But he did not have the necessary sanctification, so he did not have the blood that alone saves. We have the parable of the talents. A man knows who Christ is but does not use his talents for God. He too is lost. We have numerous areas in scripture where we are told that if we are in Christ, we will do as Christ does. And yet there are so many in the world who do nothing like what Jesus does, have no interest, who live in every kind of sin imaginable, yet think the blood of Christ will cover it. :'( What a light view of Jesus's unimaginable suffering! Before the blood of Christ can cover their sins, they have to be covered by that blood. And if they are truly in Him, there are numerous places where the word says we will obey.

So do our works save? NO.
Are they necessary for salvation? YES.
Then how on earth can they be necessary, if they do not save? Because works always come with the blood as a stamp of legitimacy. If the works aren't there, neither is the blood that alone can save.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? James 2:14 KJV

So this verse makes it very clear that faith without works is no faith at all-it is counterfeit.

Jesus is Savior. He is also Lord. Those two features are inseparable. We cannot separate them at all, for He does not change. If we get the Savior, we likewise get the Lord. If His Lordship is rejected, then the Savior goes, too. So if we receive his salvation, we also submit to His rulership. "He who loves Me obeys my commandments."

Many blessings to you. :)  

Oklahoma Howdy to Whitehorse,

I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I believe strongly that good works are necessary for a Christians testimony in life, an example for others, a reasonable service to our Lord and Saviour, fullness of fellowship, quality of fellowship, and the real joy of a walk in the Spirit.

I would also strongly agree that everything above represents exhortations to God's children. Some folks might call these exhortations Christian productivity. However, it really doesn't matter what you call them, as they are good works. A Christian's rewards will certainly be measured by his or her good works, but Salvation won't be judged by good works. Man may judge Salvation by good works, but God doesn't. To say that God does would be to say that we have a Gospel of Works instead of a Gospel of God's Grace.

How would men have judged the Salvation of the thief hanging next to Jesus on a cross? It matters nothing since we know how he was judged by God. I immediately think of three companion topics to Salvation:  justification, sanctification, and redemption. I will get to those subjects in latter posts. I only have the energy and time to post a starter on good works. However, you should easily note that good works ARE NOT part of the companion topics either. I'll boil it down simple for now and quote a few Scriptures.

Matthew 16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 3:27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with the following question, rather to stimulate thoughts about who maintains Salvation and how is it done. If Salvation is maintained by good works, what is the frequency requirement (i.e. by the hour, day, month, year, etc.). I would be the first to plead with Christians to do good works during every waking moment, but I would NOT tell them their Salvation required that. I would tell them that many beautiful portions of Scripture describe how a Christian SHOULD walk for fullness of joy and fellowship with our Lord and Saviour.

The same comparisons could be made with how many sins are allowed by a Christian before he or she loses Salvation. Some claim to be holy, without sin, perfect, and not concerned with this question. I can tell you for positive that I am not one of those folks. I have need of my Lord and Saviour to pray, confess my sins, and ask for forgiveness.

I have 100% assurance of Salvation, and that is because of my FAITH IN JESUS, not in myself. I would also state an opinion that 100% assurance of Salvation leads to greater joy and greater motivation to do good works and LIVE IN THE SPIRIT.

In Christ.

A Christian's rewards will certainly be measured by his or her good works, but Salvation won't be judged by good works.

AMEN!!!!!

Brother Love :)

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Love,

Thanks!, I needed that Amen. I haven't been able to sleep tonight, so maybe that Amen will be much better than counting sheep.  ;)

In Christ,

Tom

BEP, I really appreciate the fact that even when we disagree, you're respectful. That's very noble.

In regards to works, there's still the question of what to do with the James verse, the wedding parable, the parable of the talents... The works situation is really an easy thing to fix; the solution isn't to develop an unhealthy fear of the the Lord, but to work out our salvation with fear and trembling-this is the healthy kind of fear, and then simply do the works. As it is written: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. Philippians 2:12-13

When God first opened my eyes to this, it scared me, to be honest with you, but I'm ever so glad He did because it's a very important doctrine that has the power of life and death. As it is written: Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory! For the wedding Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Notice the image of wedding clothes here, too: But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. "Friend," He asked, "how did you get in here without wedding clothes?" The man was speechless. Matthew 22:11-12

That's why it's so important to have the right kind of fear. I know I'm working hard on that. The wrong kind drives us away from God, but the right kind makes us obey Him. Judas had the wrong kind when he committed suicide. Peter also fell in a most terrible way, but he had a right kind of fear. He picked himself up and obeyed the Lord, knowing God didn't have to save him. Presumption is when we take it for granted we're saved, never examining ourselves as scripture tells us to, and just assume God is going to save us. It's like that well-meaning question people asked me when I was in school: "If God asked you right now, why should I let you into My heaven, what would you say?" We were taught to say, "You have to because Jesus died on the cross and my sins have been paid for."

The correct answer, God has shown me, is this: "You don't have to save anyone at all." As it is written: For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."Romans 9:15

And that's why it's so important to fear God in the healthy way. Because we know from this that it is God who gives us the desire to will and to work according to His purpose! It bears repeating: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. Philippians 2:12-13

I always try very hard to hang onto that last part in bold, because look at this: Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

Or this reference to the necessity of using our salvation to work the fields: Then He told this parable: A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, "For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?" "Sir," the man replied, "leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine. If not, then cut it down."

Paul said, No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. I Corinthians 9:27. And this was the great apostle Paul; I know I for one am not better than the apostle Paul. If a guy who endured beatings, shipwrecks, imprisonment, poverty, persecution, etc. still felt this degree of discipline was necessary to not be disqualified for the prize, then my ears perk up when he says that. Certainly I intend to do likewise.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

It looks like 17 or more messages in this thread have completely disappeared. I, for one, do not have copies of all of the messages I posted. I have a few copies that I used e-Sword to make, but the rest are gone.

Just off the top of my head, there are messages missing from Whitehorse, Paul2, Missyann250, Brotherjim, Brotherlove, me, and maybe others. It's a shame, because I think the discussion was going very well.

In Christ.
Tom

Yeah, that is odd. I thought it was going very well, too, and a really important issue to work out. Maybe we should ask what happened.  :(

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Whitehorse,

There is one post from Admin. under the problems and bug reports portion of the system that may explain this. He said there was a time difference between getting the new system on line and the old system off line. He also said there was a time that some users were accessing the new system while other users were accessing the old system. He did state that some messages would be lost.

I have some copies of messages I posted, but some of them might not make much sense without the messages of the other people in the discussion. I will probably repost a few messages that make any sense without the other messages. I'm also trying to reconstruct some messages that may get the discussion going again.

I got a benefit out of the missing messages, as I got to read and study some additional portions of Scripture that shed light on what is and what is NOT "Saving Faith". I think the discussion boils down to this issue, at least in my mind. I hope to post some messages later this evening if my old computer keeps running.

In Christ,
Tom

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CONDEMNATION:

Hello All,

Here's a few beautiful portions of Scripture that deal with the subject of condemnation. I'll let the Scriptures speak for themselves with no commentary from me. If you wish the full benefit from these portions of Scripture, you will need to put them in context with surrounding portions.

John 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I John 3:20  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
I John 3:21  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

In Christ,
Tom

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JUSTIFICATION:

Hello All,

Here's a few portions of Scripture about justification, just a taste of the topic. I'll let the Scriptures speak for themselves without commentary.

Luke 16:15  And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Galatians 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

I Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


In Christ,
Tom

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SANCTIFICATION:

Hello All,

Here's a few beautiful portions of Scripture on the subject of sanctification. They are only an introduction to the topic. I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves without commentary.

John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

1Corinthians 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ephesians 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

I Thessalonians 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

II Thessalonians 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Hebrews 13:12  Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

I Peter 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

In Christ,
Tom

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RIGHTEOUSNESS:

Hello All,

Here's a few beautiful portions of Scripture that introduce the subject of righteousness. I'll let the Scriptures speak for themselves without commentary.

Matthew 6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 23:28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Romans 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I Corinthians 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

II Corinthians 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 3:21  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Galatians 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

II Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

II Timothy 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

James 3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

James 5:16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

II Peter 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I John 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

In Christ,
Tom

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REDEMPTION:

Hello All,

Here are a few portions of Scripture that introduce the topic of redemption. I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves without commentary.

Romans 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I Corinthians 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Galatians 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Ephesians 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hebrews 9:12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Revelation 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Galatians 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Galatians 4:5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Ephesians 1:12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Colossians 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I Peter 1:18  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
I Peter 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

In Christ,
Tom

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FAITH:

Hello All,

Here are a few beautiful portions of Scripture that introduce the subject of faith. I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves with no commentary from me.

Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 14:22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Romans 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I Corinthians 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

I Corinthians 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I Corinthians 15:14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

I Corinthians 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

II Corinthians 1:24  Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:2  This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Philippians 1:25  And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

II Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

I Timothy 1:14  And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
I Timothy 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I Timothy 4:6  If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

II Timothy 2:11  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

II Timothy 3:15  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I Peter 1:21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Christ,
Tom

NEW - SAVING FAITH - PART ONE

SAVING FAITH:

There are many beautiful portions of Scripture that deal with faith, and only some of them address "Saving Faith", the faith that makes a person a child of God. This is many times referred to as a "Simple, Childlike Faith". This is not a complex subject in the eyes of God, but it is in the minds of men. God knows them that are HIS, and HE is the sole judge of the heart in this matter. Men also try to judge this matter, even though their judgement means nothing in terms of whether the person is saved or not. HOWEVER, man's judgement is important in terms of whether the Christian lives a life that is a good or a bad testimony of Christ. In other words, what a Christian does or does not do may effect the decisions of others in a positive or negative way, especially the decisions of the lost. A Christian's testimony defines only a portion of a WALK IN THE SPIRIT. 100% assurance of Salvation is not a difficult subject for the individual believer if they have a real, "Saving Faith" in the Gospel of God's Grace.

There are many portions of Scripture that clearly indicate some who profess to be believers were never saved in the first place. There are descriptive portions of Scripture that define people who act in a religious manner, but they are not saved. An example would be the devout people who practiced religious ceremonies and rituals when Jesus Christ walked on this earth in the form of a man, but they rejected Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their Lord and Saviour. They didn't simply lack a "Saving Faith", rather they had no faith at all. There are many people today who practice religious ceremonies and rituals in a like manner, with no faith at all.

There are other portions of Scripture that define the difference between knowledge and "Saving Faith". Satan knows that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but Satan has no desire to confess his sins and ask Jesus Christ to come into his heart as Lord and Saviour. There are many people who fit into this same category. Some actually go to church for social status and business reasons. There are other definitions in the Bible that define people with notional or fanciful beliefs that amount to knowledge but NOT "Saving Faith". Regardless, God knows them that are HIS, and HE is not fooled by an outward appearance of religion.

There are other portions of Scripture that specifically address believers and Faith that is greater than "Saving Faith". Some might say these portions of Scripture address being built up or strengthened in the Faith. These portions of Scripture are not meant for the lost, rather for believers and how believers can grow, become strong, and be fruitful as a child of God. There are infinite levels of faith, and these levels of faith are defined by many things the believer does or does not do: (1) Study and knowledge of HIS Word; (2) Confession of Sin; (3) Resisting sin and trying to live a life which is a testimony and pleasing to God; (4) Doing good works for God, not for social status or for boasting; (5) Praying for guidance and asking God what HIS will is for you; (6) Witnessing for Christ and sharing the GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE; (7) Doing HIS will from a grateful heart and love, rather than for the rewards that are promised in HIS Word. Many portions of Scripture make it plain that increasing fellowship, joy, and peace are the results as the believer grows and matures IN THE FAITH.

The Bible speaks of several types of faith that could be summarized and described as:

1 - (LOST) - No faith.
2 - (LOST) - False, feigned, pretended, notional, or fanciful faith by the lost.
3 - (LOST) - Knowledge alone that does not result in Salvation.
4 - (SAVED) - Saving Faith-->Growing Faith-->Stronger Faith-->Mature Faith.

In studying the various portions of Scripture that touch on the subject of faith, one must determine the following to understand the message: (1) Who is the speaker?; (2) Who is the intended audience?; (3) What is the purpose of the message? On one end of the spectrum would be a message to the lost intended to lead them to Christ. On the other end of the spectrum would be a message to the saved intended to encourage striving for knowledge, good works, growth in the faith, strength in the faith, and finally, maturity in the faith.

So, what is the definition of "Saving Faith"? This is going to sound like the answer of a politician, but I'm going to post it anyway. Men have numerous definitions for "Saving Faith", some with and some without various levels of Biblical foundation. The real definition of "Saving Faith" is what God sees or doesn't see in the heart of the person professing belief and faith. Evidence of the original seed of simple, childlike faith will either be there or not.

I doubt there will be much debate or controversy resulting from this specific post. I tried to address the subject of "Saving Faith" from a plain and common sense perspective that does have strong Biblical foundation. However, I'm working on part two of this same subject, and it has been controversial for 2,000 years among the lost, the saved, and people who are considered to be Bible Scholars. I'm not a Bible Scholar, so I will try to present the issues and my opinion from the perspective of plain man with some degree of common sense. Some of you may want to tar and feather me after I post part two of Saving Faith, but I think the issues still need to be addressed. If my energy holds out, I'll put on my helmet, ballistic vest, and post part two in a day or so.

In Christ,
Tom

Amen Brother Amen


Brother Love :)

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I am still working on what I thought would be Saving Faith Part Two. I'm not close to being through with it and have no idea how big it will be. Further, I've been thinking about and praying about what I should post and what I should not post in respect to believers using Christians Unite. In other words, I don't know whether I will post it or not.

I wanted to show and present proof there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible. The Old Testament and the New Testament are completely in agreement, regardless of what some believe makes the Holy Bible inaccurate and impossible to be the Inspired Word of God.

I also wanted to show and present proof there are no contradictions between Matthew, Paul, and James in the New Testament. There has been an ongoing debate for 2,000 years that Paul had to be a heretic for what he wrote. Much of this dealt with misunderstandings from the reader about what Jesus did or did not teach and what key portions of Scripture actually meant. Here's an example: what does it mean that Jesus came to fulfill the law? Matthew states there are no changes to the law and there never will be. Paul states that the law was nailed to the cross and good works are not required for eternal Salvation. James appears to say you will obey the law and do good works or lose your Salvation. I contend there is no contradiction here AT ALL, NONE!

Some would say there are contradictions about what man must do to be saved or to stay saved according to various writers in the New Testament. I contend there are no contradictions of any kind, rather a problem understanding the purpose of the message and the meaning of the message. As an example, there are no contradictions of any kind between law and grace.

I'm still working on it, but I don't know if I will post it or not. I'll have to pray about that. If I do post it, it won't be just part two, maybe two to ten. I don't care if I make a Satan worshiper upset, but I do care about my brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Christ,
Tom

Yet another Amen for you Brother


Brother Love :)

Hello All,

One thing is obvious in reading either the Old Testament or the New Testament, no man except Jesus on this earth was ever perfect, holy, or without sin. This is stated bluntly in an untold number of Scriptures in both the Old and the New Testament.

Jesus had quite a problem with some who claimed self-righteousness and called them a generation of vipers. Other portions are a little bit more gentle and simply say, "The truth is not in them."

Man will not be given his glorified body or perfection of any type in this life. However, these things are part of the inheritance of God's children, and all believers will receive these gifts in the ages to come. There will be no sin, sorrow, or evil in our eternity with our Lord and Saviour, but these things have not come to pass yet.

I would not call it a testimony that anyone stood and claimed to have perfection of any type, rather of boasting, self-righteousness, and UNTRUTH. Several sins would be committed in such a testimony. In the age that we do get perfection, it will be a gift of god, all believers will have it, and nobody will be boasting or having a feeling of self-righteousness.

In Christ,
Tom

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN

Tom, have I told you I love you Brother, have a GRRRREAT day Bro

Oklahoma Howdy to Ambassador4Christ,

I love you too Brother, and I appreciate your stand for the Gospel of God's Grace. God has richly blessed my family and me, and I am having a "GRRRREAT DAY". Brother, I pray the same for you and your family.

KEEP LOOKING UP!

In Christ,
Tom

I am new to this forum but from what I have read so far I would like to say that I am impressed with the simple fact that many of you have professed that you are saved according to John 3:16. I too am saved but have backslidden and would like to request that you pray for me and give me any advice that I can get. I love the Lord Jesus and sincerely desire to change my life. Even though I am backslidden I am not naive, so if you are not a fundamental Christian, please save your comments.

Oklahoma Howdy to Timmy,

I don't like to use tags or labels describing my faith in Jesus Christ. They are misunderstood by many and I found out they mean different things to different people. I will be more than happy to talk with you, and I'm sure there are many others on Christians Unite who will also. I guess that you could ask a couple of questions about my beliefs if this post doesn't tell you enough.

First, the core of my belief is that I am saved BY GRACE through FAITH ALONE. I didn't deserve Salvation and I haven't earned Salvation. I believe that all Christians SHOULD do GOOD WORKS, and I really enjoy doing good works. However, I don't believe that GOOD WORKS keep me SAVED. I also believe that all Christians should struggle in avoiding sin, confess their sins, request forgiveness for sins, and strive to be and give a good testimony for Jesus Christ. I don't believe that sin can cause you to lose your Salvation if you were ever truly SAVED. However, I obviously believe that sin, and especially sin that is not confessed, reduces your fellowship with the Lord and Saviour and fellow Christians. I do believe that once you are saved, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED. I believe in the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Jesus Christ taking the form of a man and dying on the cross for the sins of man, Jesus Christ arising from the dead and ascending back to heaven, and Jesus Christ as our Living Lord and Saviour. I believe that the Holy Spirit lives in the heart of every believer. In conclusion, I am a strong believer in the Gospel of God's Grace, the New Covenant.

Feel free to ask whatever you wish. I am a retired and disabled police officer. I've been a Christian for about 50 years. By the way, welcome to Christians Unite. I hope you enjoy it here.

In Christ,
Tom