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 I have discovered your answer! Take time to read this and allow me to explain in detail.

  The answer I have found will explain John's vision in Revelation and the Rapture.

  Allow me to paint a visual picture senario for you. The Rapture of true believers happens now, Bam, millions vanish, including you. The next thing you know your standing before Jesus at the bema judgement seat. Jesus judges his Church at the bema judgement and gives rewards. 24 Elders are selected by Jesus to serve in the role of priests to him. He gives them crowns and they are seated before the throne of God. We are taken into the "place he went to prepare for us " with Jesus for the wedding week, which happens to parallel Daniel's 70th week on earth. On the final day of the wedding week we are assembled before God. This is the Day of the second coming of Christ to earth.

    John on the isle of Patmos was taken to THIS day in heaven, not the day of the Rapture but to The Day of the Second coming! The Day of the Lord. John arrives in heaven and witnesses the last day. He doesn't see the bema judgement, but sees the elders of the church crowned and actively serving as priests holding the prayers of the tribulation saints. John's vision was not 7 years long. It was 1 day long, the last day, the day of Christ's Second coming.

    Back to us in heaven... We are assembled on the last day and we witness all the events of John's vision with him. We have been on a honeymoon and now we are being shown what has taken place since we left earth. We are being shown some events that have already taken place but we are shown the "cause and effect". We are shown the 7 seals broken and we are shown the effects that took place as a result. We are shown the details of 7 years, Daniel's 70th week. The 7th trumpet is the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Which happens to be the day we are gathered before God's throne in heaven witnessing everything John saw.

    John speaks with an elder who has been crowned, who could that be? the Elder asks John to identify the crowd arrayed in white robes. John does not recognize them, they are not of the church. The elder reveals to John that those arrayed in white have come up from the great tribulation, they are martyred tribulation saints. They are now at the throne of God for it is the last day. The day of the lord. At the end of John's vision Christ returns to earth for the wedding feast. We are hours away from decent.

  We are gathered together for the famous final scene. We are being shown the events of the past 7 years while we were on honeymoon. The seven bowls are poured out after the 7th trumpet but the effects take place from the mid week of Daniel's 70th week on. Satan was throne from heaven at the middle of the 70th week as the effect of the 5th trumpet judgement. We are watching what is like a movie. We are shown causes and their effects and not continous chronological time pass. We are being brought up to speed on events. Right now somewhere out in space is a comet heading for earth that will be called wormwood. It is aready in motion on a head on collision course. In heaven we will see the cause of the comet, the 3rd trumpet sounding, followed by the effect of the comet on earths water. We will be seeing the past, present and future. For with God the future is as certain as the past. John's vision shows the events of seven years in macro view and micro view. we are shown series of sevens with an interlude between the 6th and 7th of a series. Then we are given more details but not chronological in order. We witness the events of 7 years, past, present and future, on the final day of the 70th week of Daniel, and then we decend to earth.

  Can you see it now? John's vision was the Last day, the day of the second coming. We were being debriefed of what has taken place since we were raptured and taken to the place prepared for us to be with Jesus for the wedding week.
  We are about to be presented as the bride of Jesus and return to earth. We are shown the battle before the battle is fought and the outcome is certain.

  This is one of the keys to the book of Revelation. The vision is not chronological in the effects of the seals, trumpets, bowls. Many events take place the same day. The middle of the 70th week is a busy day. Satan gets thrown from heaven, Antichrist is wounded and healed and then to prove he's god kills the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11. The 6th seal effect takes place on this day as well.

    We are being shown a vision. Were not in a stadium looking down watching everything live and in the present. We are witnessing past, present and future of the final 70th week of Daniel, on the final day, the Lord's Day!

                                                    Paul2
 
    Read Revelation 4-19 and keep in mind John is witnessing the last day of Daniel's 70th week in Heaven. Later the same day Jesus returns to earth. We are assembled in Heaven ready to decend with Christ for the wedding feast. All the events in Heaven happen on the Last day. The half hour of silence is literal. At the end of the vision we decend with Christ.

 From heaven, only one day is taking place, the day of the gathering and the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls and second coming.

    As far as the vision and earth are concerned 7 years of events are being shown to those in heaven, past, present, and future. Those in heaven will see time on earth not chronologically but the causes and effects that have taken place during Daniel's 70th week.

Revelation 12:6  "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
   7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
   8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
   9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.'

    John is in Heaven on the Last day of the 70th week of Daniel, the day of the second coming of Christ to the earth. The vision above takes place at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The angels gathered around God's throne do not start battling demons and Satan when John sees the vision because those events have already taken place. He is seeing the results of an event that occured 3 1/2 years before the day he is at in heaven. He is seeing a future event as far as earth is concerned now in the present, but his view from heaven is of the past. At the sounding of the fifth trumpet, (which is the cause of the effect in the above passages) angels don't put down their trumpets and wage war on Satan because they fought the battle 3 1/2 years earth time earlier.

    The church was in the "place prepared for us" honeymooning with Jesus during the battle and Micheal led the battle of the angels and threw Satan to earth. This is past tense in the vision of chapter 12. Chapter 13 shows us Antichrist reigning for 1,260 days= 42 months= 3 1/2 years and is shown in past tense because it was past tense to John who was in heaven on the last day of Daniel's 70th week.

   Once you understand when the vision was given, the last day of Daniel's 70th week, hours before the second coming, and realize that you are being debriefed on what has taken place during the 70th week of Daniel, it all starts to come together.

    Many people picture John arriving in heaven and witnessing all the events "real time" as if he was chronologically recording history unfolding real time before his eyes. If that were the case the vision would have lasted 7 years. He saw the gathering for the second coming procession hours before Jesus decends to earth toward Armmageddon. John witnessed the past, present and future, he saw the judgement causes and judgement effects and the details required to understand what he was seeing.

   Chapter 4 of Revelation is future to us on earth now but to John in heaven it was past. The trumpet like voice of Jesus will call us to meet him on the clouds at the Rapture prior to the 70th week of Daniel, but John was called to the last day of the 70th week when he went to heaven in the spirit. He sees the Elders already crowned and in position as priests with the prayers of the tribulation saints when he first arrives in heaven.

    Once you understand this it all becomes very clear. It answers many questions. God's judgements have been programmed already. We are shown "after the fact" that God was the cause for the effects that take place during the wrath of God. The effects of the 7 seals,7 trumpets and 7 bowls are not all chronological. the effects of the 7 bowls occur before the effect of the 7th trumpet which signals the end of the great tribulation.

    I see said the blind man to his deaf wife as he picked up his hammer and saw.

                                                  Paul2

(in the voice of Elmer Fudd) Hellwo, am I in the wight woom?

                           NO REPLY?

     
                                                         Paul2 ???

How might you have come to this conclusion?

 Saved_4ever,

     I came up with that by studing the Bible for 13 years, and using the same method I have always used, I pray to God for understanding of His truth.

     Revelation has been a favorite study of mine and one small detail I had over looked was the final key that put it all together and answered all the questions I've been asked over the years.

     I was seeking to answer a question for someone, and when I prayed for wisdom to find the truth in an answer for them, I suddenly realized the answer to all the questions I had yet to be able to answer. In an instant everything became so clear it was amazing.

    I have debated the Rapture and Revelation for years and just wish I had asked God the question years ago. I was so close to seeing it but I was blinded by one wrong assumption.

    Johns call to heaven in chapter 4 of Revelation. I had assumed John was called to heaven and arrived there at the end of the church age, the day of the Rapture. I had realized years ago that the effects of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials were not all in chronological order but by assuming John arrived in heaven at the Rapture of the Church blinded me from seeing the whole vision clearly.

    To answer your question in the simplest terms, I prayed with a teachable spirit, set aside all perconcieved notions, and asked for understanding the truth in God's word.

    Prayer went something like this:

    Father, you have shown me so many awesome truths in your word and revealed to me so many things and I thank you, but there is one thing that I still don't understand. It seems to conflict with all the truth you've revealed to me so far, and I know that it can not be possible for your word to contradict itself so I ask for understanding. Show me how it all fits together in harmony and truth. I know the answer is there but I can't see it clearly. Please reveal to my mind the truth.

     Before I could end the prayer, the answer flashed through my mind. Why hadn't I seen it before? Perhaps I was using my mind to analize all the information instead of clearing my mind and letting God give me the answer. It was an awesome experience, one I won't forget. I understood more in 3 minutes, than 13 years of laborous study. As my mind raced to see if this solved the questions I'd been asked over the years each time the answer was yes. I was driving in my car when this all took place, I couldn't wait to get home and grab my Bible. As I drove I ran through my mind all the passages I wanted to read to verify, I knew I had the answer, but wanted to make sure and test it against the Bible.

    Funny thing is I thought I had a great understanding of the Book of Revelation before but its has become so much clearer now. It all makes sense, and all the questions dissolved into answers.

    One misunderstanding of the truth can blind you to the fulness of truth. A teachable spirit is key. Having an awesome God as teacher is beyond words.

                                                            Paul2

     

Paul,
      I'm in the process of digesting all that you've written. I don't understand how is it that you know the vision of Pauls last only one day. Can't God bring all that he needed to show Paul in a matter of minutes? Do we know that its a literally sun up sun down kind of day for what Paul sees? The age old debate of  that scripture that says....... a day is like a thousand years, 2 Pete 3:8......I was just wondering how this might fight into what I understand so far.
 
Smile.....your on Candid Camera! NOt really but God is watching you

     I don't know how long the vision went on. The point I was trying to make was the beginning of the vision was the Lord's Day, the day of the Second Coming, resurrection of tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints. It was judgement day in heaven, but many of the effects from the seals,trumpets and vials had already taken effect on earth.

    In heaven we are seeing the departure day of Christ coming to establish His kingdom. He has gathered all in heaven around the throne and is conducting His judgement of the earth. The 7 sealed scroll is the "title deed" of the earth so to speak. He opens each seal and then we are shown the effect it had during the 70th week of Daniel on earth.

   The 7 angels with trumpets come after and after each trumpet blast we are shown the effects that occured on earth during Daniel's 70th week. The 7th trumpets effect is Christ establishing His Kingdom and announces the end of the great tribulation which will occur after the cerimony that day.

    The 7 Angels with vials come after  and after each vial is poured out we see the effect it had during the Great Tribulation. The effects do not occur after the vials are poured out but before except the last vial just as the 7th trumpets effect will take place that very day so the 7th vials effect will take place that very day.

    After that john speaks with an angel that had a vial and is shown the future into the millenium to the final Great White Throne Judgement. I have no idea how long that took.

    My main point was that the seals, trumpets and vials all take place during a cerimony around God's throne on the Last day, the day Christ returns to establish His Kingdom and the end of Daniel's 70th week. The half hour of silence in heaven is literal. I believe this was the final gathering before Jesus decends to the mount of Olives. Judgement day for the earth and those who still dwell upon it!

                                                           Paul2

I think I understand, your saying that Pauls vision was for the future but with in that vision is the past tense of what the seals and vials have brought to the earth for any people from tribulations time?   IN todays time  is this a mid trib rapture belief of both a pre trib and mid trib rapture?......
 SO its something that is going to happen, but once we are in Heaven we'll being seeing as Pual did, the instant replay so to speak?
 :P ??? :D
I'm confused........ remember Buck Owens....
I was looking back to see if she was looking back at me to see if I was looking back to see if she was looking back at me,,,,,she was beautiful........

Musicllover,

    To make it simple: the day of the vision as far as John was concerned was the Day of the Second Coming. He sees the cerimony around God's throne hours before Jesus returns to earth to end the 70th week of Daniel, the final battle at Armmageddon at the end of which Jesus casts the Antichrist and false prophet into the lake of fire, and sets up His millenial Kingdom.

    John is shown the cerimony and then the results of each judgement, back to the cerimony and so one. The primary day in heaven is the Lord's Day, the Day Jesus takes control away from Antichrist on earth, the Day of the Second Coming.

     Now to get complicated:

     I believe that chapter 4 of Revelation is in the future. When we on earth get to the time Chapter 4 begins the Rapture will occur. I believe John was brought to heaven and arrived there hours before the second coming 7 years after the Rapture. I believe the cerimony around God's throne including the 7 seals, trumpets and bowls were all accomplished the last day of Daniel's 70th week earth time. The effects of these were shown during the 70th week on earth, but not in chronolgical order. John witnessed past present and future events but the cerimony itself I believe was the Day of the Lord as in the actual Day Jesus returns to establish his kingdom.

    The whole purpose for this discussion is many people assume that the seals, trumpets and bowls are in chronlogical order. This would mean that the 7 vials must follow the 7th trumpet which signals the end of the great tribulation and Jesus establishing the millenial kingdom. That puts the 7 vials into the millenial kingdom time period. Many people assume the 7th trumpet is the Rapture but the reality is the 7th trumpet is the second coming. The 7th trumpet is an announcement that Christ has begun to rule His millenial kingdom which will be established later that same day if I'm correct. Before the Second coming happens the 7 vials are poured out in heaven but there effects have already happened during the 70th week of Daniel on earth. Were just witnessing the cerimony in heaven but not chronological events happening after all the trumpets effects have happened. Many seals,trumpets and bowls have their effects simaltaniously. The effect of the 5th trumpet is Satan cast out of heaven to earth. This event happens in the middle of Daniels 70th week, this doesn't mean all the seals and trumpets before the 5th trumpet were in chronological sequence. The 6th seal and the 7th trumpets effects are on the same day, the mid week of the 70th week.

                                                        Paul2 8)

Paul2,
        I got it, I finally caught up with this on the other thread, had to many irons in the fire.....so in JOHN WAYNE fashion.......come on pilgrams, lets round up the bad teachings brand them and send back to hell from where they came.......
Praise the Lord Jesus is going to come again. I CAN'T wait.