Print Page - Born Again! What Happened?

The new birth is as real as the first birth. The Lord Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6)."

When a child is born into the world, a new life comes into existence. This life has a human nature, which is sinful. It is therefore subject to death. This is the birth that Jesus called "the flesh" and the result of that birth is flesh. This life cannot change its nature. It is as the grass that withers, and as a flower that falls away (I Peter 1:24). To be saved does not mean that this life which is born of the flesh is changed or made over. This cannot happen, for its nature cannot be changed. That is the condition that makes the new birth imperative. The only thing God can do with the flesh is to judge it, and judgment results in condemnation and execution (Romans 8:3, Galatians 2:19: Romans 6:6).

The new birth is a birth of the Spirit. It is to be "...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13)." Peter says, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever (I Peter 1:23)." This seed not only lives forever, but it has also been revealed that it remains in the one who is born of God (I John 3:9). Such a life must be eternal and that is what Jesus said it is (John 3:16). That life which is eternal cannot die. All who are born of incorruptible seed have an incorruptible nature and have eternal life. It is impossible for such to be lost, for that would mean the corruption of the divine nature and the death of that which cannot die. By the new birth, one who has already been born into the human race is born into the Spiritual realm, that is, the Kingdom of God. This is the only way to see or enter that realm (John 3:3,5).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation): old things are passed away; behold all things are become new (II Corinthians 5:17)." This verse speaks of the old conditions, which existed for the unsaved man, as passed away, and behold, all brand new conditions exist for the saved man - the one who is born again.

When the new birth takes place many irreversible things take place. The Bible states that the one who is born again has:

1) Received everlasting life (John 3:16)
2) Been born again (I John 5:1)
3) Been born of incorruptible seed (I Peter 1:23)
4) This incorruptible seed remaining in him (I John 3:9)
5) Become a son of God (John 1:12)
6) Become a new creation (II Corinthians 5:17)
7) Been passed from death unto life (John 5:24)
8) Been exempted from future condemnation (John 5:24)
9) Been redeemed from under the law (Galatians 4:5)
10) Been redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 4:5)
11) Become dead to the law (Romans 7:4)
12) Received an eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)
13) Been reconciled to God (II Corinthians 5:18)
14) Peace with God (Romans 5:1)
15) Been justified (Romans 5:1)
16) All trespasses forgiven him (Colossians 2:13)
17) Been delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
18) Been translated into the kingdom of the Son of God (Colossians 1:13)
19) Been perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
20) His sins no more remembered (Hebrews 10:17)
21) His sins removed as far as the East is from the West (Psalms 103:12)
22) Been made complete in Christ (Colossians 2:10)
23) Been accepted of God (Ephesians 1:6)
24) Been born of the Spirit of God (John 3:6)
25) Been baptized by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 12:13)
26) Been indwelt by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 6:19-20)
27) Been sealed with God's Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)
28) Become the object of God's love (Ephesians 2:4)
29) Become the object of God's grace (Romans 6:14)
30) Become the object of God's power (Ephesians 1:19)
31) Become the object of God's faithfulness (I Corinthians 1:9)
32) Become a citizen of heaven (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20)
33) Been seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6)
34) Been already glorified (Romans 8:30)
35) Been given a home in heaven (John 14:1-3)
36) Been kept by the power of God (I Peter 1:5)
37) Been crucified with Christ (Galatians (2:20)
38) Been buried with Christ (Romans 6:4)
39) Been resurrected with Christ (Ephesians 2:6)

All of the above plus many other things are true about one who has trusted Jesus Christ as his Savior and as a result become born-again. Not a single individual who has been born into the human race has been able to remove himself from it. Many have committed suicide, but all they have done is to shorten the days of their earthly existence. Their existence still continues on and on into the eternity of the future. Still some teach that one who has been saved can be lost. By analogy with the human race, this is impossible. A person cannot become unborn physically, nor can he become unborn spiritually. No provision is given in the Word of God for one to become unborn. "That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6)."

One only becomes born-again once. Nowhere does this imply that you become born again, then unborn, then born again, then unborn, and so on. Once you trust Christ and are born-again all of the above list of things happen to you. If you could be unborn, all would have to be made void, but all of the above list is eternal and irreversible.

Jesus promised the believer, "...I will in no wise cast you out (John 6:37)." Also, Jesus said of those that are saved, "...I should lose nothing, but should raise it (them) up again at the last day (John 6:39)." Jesus promised that he would never lose a person who was saved. If one person were ever lost after having been born-again, then Jesus would be a liar. Friend, that can never happen. (See Titus 1:2).

The only ground upon which God does anything for man is the gift of His Own Son. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE (John 3:16)."

What happened when you trusted Christ? At least 39 things happened that make it impossible for you to ever be lost! Praise the Lord!

I think you might be referring to the onced saved always saved theme, about salvation. As if no matter what you do your in, right? It's knowing the cost!
And It's loving Him and belief in Him and building a relationship, and choice that secure our salvation. The Proverb about a dog returning to his vomit. Read about the seeds sown in the soils. Martin Luther even was perplexed to the scriptures in James 5:19-20. but it does say, save a soul from death, and John said things like don't be caught in darkness. The verses in Matthew7:22-23, are explaining that He knew them not. To mean they had no relationship with Him. Which goes back to the first commandment Jesus said was above all others. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. (not in the translation of the King James, but you know the words of the commandments He stressed in them passages).
And the scriptures tell about the branches being thrown in the fire, and in Hebrews 6:1-12, the warnings of backsliding. I could go on finding scripture that supports it comes down to a choice. Satan is going to come against that choice everytime he's allowed. The main objective is, obedience. Making Him our Lord, surrender, of our total being, slain to the Spirit as our guide. Because "Love" obeys, and it was love that held Jesus on the cross not nails. He loved the Father, let thine will be done. And He loved us, big time! I think to many times folks get alittle hard core on what people say about being condemned. Most people are not setting in judgment, they are warning if one does not turn from their sin, they might face it. We should warn a brother of his error. Now, for the Charismatic movement, well, read 1 Corinthians 12-13-14 again and let the Spirit guide you to its understanding, I know some areas of the church forget the guidelines and I believe even teach it somewhat off course. But its the Spirit that teaches, it says so in the Scriptures, I believe thats in 1st John. And women preaching, who was first to come back from the tomb saying He has risen? The first one to spread the Gospel, to tell that what was written had been done. I don't think Joyce Meyers has climbed over the alignment ladder. And our preachers of the Word are going to miss it sometimes, but you have to forgive them and pray for them. Gods polices everything and if you are reading the Word, have the relationship going, dying daily to your flesh, if the sanctification power of the Holy Spirit is at work in you, your being obedient as you can possibily be, walking in the Spirit. Your be able to know what is right and what is wrong. {discernment} Just remember God is in control, and Jesus is Lord. Gods at work in a lot of them minstries. It's all about Jesus, maybe more should say that. And the "I" should be in all of us to pray for our brothers and sisters. Them that need to be healed. Jesus always first had compassion on anyone first before they were healed. and He,s still doing it today. Jesus in John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it will shall be given unto you." Jesus is the Word, and if His Word is in You and you ask in accordance to Gods will, then there you have it. Its a measure of faith, His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven. We have to pray for discernment of the scriptures also, in this case of the word I mean "understanding". Paul said to pray for the gifts, and if someone has trouble with someone that has these gifts {which are given by the Father}, then maybe there is a door of truth they have not allowed to open to give way to the Spirit in their sanctification. I think the main thing to remember is that the enemy likes to bring offence into the church, for good reason. It gets our focus off Christ and the good things we should be filling our minds and souls with, love.
The power in prayer is from the one that hears it, and all them that have a upright ministry know that.

May the Lord bless thee, and keep thee
only always for Christ Jesus.
from the love of a brother in Christ Jesus
ggamble

You mis-use Hebrews 6 so I must say this first

Can a person who has been saved lose his salvation? This question has been a perplexing one to many. Maybe you have been questioning the genuineness of your salvation. Are you really saved? Are you really sure?

Consider the alternative, that you could lose your salvation. By virtue of the fact that you could lose it, would mean that keeping salvation would depend upon you efforts or actions. In other words, a person who says that he can lose his salvation for whatever reason, is in reality saying that he is trusting in human works to save himself. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace (mercy) are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Salvation is not of works; therefore a person who is trusting in his works is not and will not be saved. What are we saying? Plainly stated: a person who says he can lose his salvation is not saved or he is thoroughly confused and lacks assurance of salvation.

If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved. Let me say it again. If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved.

Have you ever noticed how Bible commentaries skip difficult passages? It can be very frustrating because usually a person buys a commentary to help them to understand a difficult passage. Well, Hebrews 6:4-6 falls into that category. Many times people skip over or ignore Hebrews 6 because it is difficult to understand.

Often Hebrews 6:4-6 is misinterpreted to teach that a saved person can be lost after they have been saved. To teach that a saved person could be lost would mean that you would contradict many clear passages that say the exact opposite.

A good rule to remember when interpreting difficult passages in the Bible is as follows: Whenever you have a passage that is difficult to understand you never allow it to contradict a clear passage on the subject. In other words, you should interpret a difficult passage in the light of clear passage.

You should never contradict a "verily, verily" verse. For example, Jesus said in John 6:47, "Verily, verily I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." When Jesus said "verily, verily", He was saying "truthfully, truthfully". Why? Did Jesus ever lie? The answer is NO! Jesus did not and could not lie because He is God. Titus 1:2 tells us that God cannot lie. Jesus was simply saying, "This is a truth not to be passed over." In John 6:47 we have a truth so important that if a person misses this truth he or she will go to hell for all eternity. The secret of eternal life is no secret. Jesus said plainly, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." The only condition to this offer of EVERLASTING LIFE (NOT TEMPORARY LIFE) is BELIEF (TRUSTING IN CHRIST). Don't contradict a clear verse like this one. With this in mind, let's look at Hebrews 6:4-6.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

Notice that the passage is talking about those who are saved. There are five things said about them that demonstrate this truth:

First, "Those who were once enlightened" refers to a saved person or one who has seen "the light" of the Lord Jesus Christ. The same word "enlightened" is translated "illuminated" in Hebrews 10:32 and speaks of a saved individual.

Second, "tasted of the heavenly gift" refers to salvation. Romans 6:23 says, "The gift of God is eternal life." Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation "is the gift of God." The word "tasted" is used in Hebrews 2:9 saying Christ "tasted death for every man." We tasted of the heavenly gift in the same way Christ tasted death--that is, fully and completely.

Third, "We're made partakers of the Holy Ghost." The Bible teaches in Romans 8:9, "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." In other words, if you don't have the Holy Spirit you are not saved. The moment a person trusts Christ as Saviour he or she partakes of the Holy Spirit. If you do not have the Holy Spirit, then you are unsaved.

Fourth, "Tasted the good Word of God." The Bible tells us in I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural (unsaved) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Only the saved man can taste of the Word of God.

Fifth, "The powers of the world to come." Only the born-again man has experienced the power of God. Romans 1:16 says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth." A person who is born-again has experienced the power of God.

"If they shall fall away" is not referring to salvation but it is referring to the "Christian life"! Hebrews 6:1 tells us that the writer is speaking about things that accompany salvation. Hebrews 6:1 tells us that the writer is talking about maturity in the Christian life and not about how to be saved.

Well, what is Hebrews 6:6 talking about? Verse six is simply stating to Hebrew (Jewish) believers who were used to a yearly sacrifice that it was impossible for them to be saved again because "by ONE offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified [the believers in Christ] (Hebrews 10:14)." Hebrews 6:1 tells us that we cannot "lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God."

If a believer falls away from serving the Lord, the procedure is not to become saved again. That is impossible. It is impossible to "renew" them again unto repentance (the change of mind necessary to accept Christ as Saviour).

Hebrews 6:6 warns that if you try to become saved again all you do is crucify Jesus Christ afresh to yourself, thereby shaming Jesus Christ.

The Bible does not teach that one must be born again and again and again, etc. You can only be born-again once, never to be cast out (John 6:37) or lost (John 6:39). Salvation is complete and final. (Read John 5:24).

The solution for a believer fallen away from service to the Lord is to start serving again. We are encouraged by the words of Hebrews 6:10, that "God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love." God will reward faithful service to him. (See I Corinthians 15:58).

God wants us to grow in knowledge of Him, to serve Him and to mature.

Lack in these areas does not mean that we have lost our salvation. That is why it is impossible to get saved again (Hebrews 6:6), because it is impossible to lose salvation (Hebrews 13:5). To try to become saved again (impossible) shames Jesus Christ who has saved us forever (John 6:47; Hebrews 9:12; 10:10; 10:12-14, 17, 18). To serve Him again brings glory and honor to Him (John 12:24), and His blessing and reward is upon us (I Corinthians 15:58).

You speak of duty, we have many 'duties' the first of which is holiness to not sin you will not do this and you cannot do this. Which is what makes you need Christ in the first place your inability. when we trust in him to save us all our sins are forgiven not just sins we have already done, all our sins including our sins of doubt and unbelief. Our 'flesh is flesh' and will always fail this never changes but our eternal soul & spirit has been regenerated, and no corruption of the flesh will ever change the work God has done

Ecc. 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it , that men should fear before him.

Our salvation is not a work we do but a work God does
In his Love and Greatest Grace,
David Winn

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hypothetical situation...the thing about Hebrews 6:4-6 is that it's basically saying that if they lost their salvation it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything to get it back. This isn't the message of the mainstream line of thought today because they say that you can re-gain it should you lose it. There is the flaw in the thinking that Hebrws 6:4-6 teach that one can lose their salvation. We don't know what happened to Judas, however we do not know what was on his heart, so we cannot say with 100% complete accuracy that he went to heaven. There is supporting evidence for either side of that arguement based on his actions. The most common arguement that is brought to the table is "Well he was chosen as one of Jesus' disciples." Correct, but does that mean that he was saved by grace through faith in Jesus for the remission and covering of sins? One has to ask themself that question if they are going to come to the table with that stance. Now onto Hebrews 10:26. I counter with does Scripture not say that Jesus' sacrifice was ONCE and for all? (Ref Hebrews 9:24-28) This states that Jesus does not offer Himself often and that He was offered up once for the sins of many. Now i'm sure we are in agreement that Jesus only had to come to die ONCE. Now the author of Hebrews is saying in chapter 10 the same thing in Chapter 9. He bounces right off of talking about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, into saying "don't go and sin willfully." My question is this: as a Believer with the Holy Spirit within us do we still WANT to sin if we are saved according to His will? The answer is no. we are given a new heart, and a new spirit to serve Him. Yes, we'll still fall prey to sin, that's part of our human nature, however, if we are truely saved and born again, we aren't going to WANT to go back to that fallen nature once we've tasted that which God has given us. I'm being summoned by my parents to take my medicine, but i'll be back in a little while. Think on these things. God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

{In reply to Hebrews 6 and mis-use of}
A Bible commentary that I've studied out of is the Life Application - New International Version. In here before the chapter is a sub-title: Warning Against Falling Away This is what I based my referance on, as a warning to falling away and choice with what it says in accorance to these comments from Tyndale/Zondervan's issue LAB-NIV 1991.
In here they tell of the Jewish Christians returning back to Judaism. The fact is it was their choice. For them it was less obvious when they broke away, their life-style remained relatively unchanged. But by deliberately turning away from Christ, they were cutting themselves off from God's forgiveness. It says the author warned against hardness of the heart that would make repentance inconceivable for the sinner.
A brother reminded me about Saul, the Holy Spirit left him and look what happened. And he made that happen by his choices.
Old Testament, but the facts are there.
John 15:1-8, here Jesus is talking about the branches, in 3, may be saying something about where His disciples are at spiritually. In 5 our Lord is saying them that abide in Him, shall bring about much fruit. {Fruit is not limited to winning souls to Christ in these passages} In 6 He says; "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." The Amplified Bible says "does not dwell in me", and uses "united to me", "lives in me". Abide means also to know someone. Here I believe I can base the relationship value, I was writing about.
About duty as being works, anything I do is because I continue to seek Him. I know I'm saved because of God's grace and for what Jesus did on the cross. But as I said the ememy keeps coming against my choice that made Jesus my Lord and Saviour. Why would he do that? If not for some reason, he roars about, waiting. Why?
I know by experience that by backsliding that I was lost, I was on and off with the walk, I've experience all the soils Jesus talks about in the scriptures. Each time deeper into sin I went, 7 more unclean spirits came back in me as I walked by my choice in the lust of my flesh, for my desires. I experienced the Holy Spirit's coming upon me, that peace that entered me. But I walked away slowly giving into the world, then I lived as I wanted. The relationship broke because of me, my choice. I knew I was in danger, I knew it. As I went the more miserable I got. I longed for that peace again. I had many sins on my plate, unrepented, unconfessed sins against the Father. I had not humbled myself to do it. All of which, were my choices, my rebellion, running and each time the Hound of Heaven came I would resist. I would say "I know, I need to get right with the You, Lord", but reason and justification and the world bondage held me down.
Each time I came back, more foundation was built. growing up I was raised going to church, Methodist, confirm to Christ as they called it when I was 13, in 1973. Which I knew Him not, until November 21, 1992 when the Holy Spirit came in me. When I confess Him as My Lord and Saviour there was a change, what was going on in me was like something I could not explain, but I had peace, but my mind was like a waterfall of every kind of thought. The discipleship of the church did not come to explain or help me through the conversion. I had a hunger for the Word, for Him, I was on my knees and in prayer not because of what I did but by what the Holy Spirit was doing in me, but I did not endure, unconfessed sin I don't believe will be burnt off. But I knew what fire I was heading for. It wasn't untill the Passion of the Christ, came to town that His plan came all in place. I went to see it on the Friday before Good Friday, then on Easter I was in a 4 Square Gospel Church and repented. I had that peace and the hunger came back to seek Him stronger than I had ever before in 1992, 1996, 2001 (and then April 18, 2004 the good soil.) Two Pastors in 1996 from The Church of God took me under their wing and discipled me quite a bit, I grew a lot then. But this time the Lord had two men from the Apostolic Church discipleing me, their worship service is different from the 4 Square Church I attend, but our study of the Word and our guidance depend on the same Holy Spirit. And they have done nothing but show me Jesus and help me grow in Him. It was a Joyce Meyers tape that introduced me to what Paul meant in the renewing of the mind. Then bringing every thought into obedience to Christ, and the casting down of imaginations and anything not to the knowledge of God. Filing up that void in my soul with that of Jesus, crucifying my flesh. Putting on the armor of God everyday before I went out to meet the evil of the day was what got me through the birth canel, and he fleed and on the mountain top I received the promise. Was that works? Or is that the things that righteous people do? 1992 I went through conversion, baptism, did I get all the way through the battle for my soul? I felt I was saved, my life had did a 180, there was a change in me from God. I believed I could never lose it even if I walked away for a while. Till I was away, each time God crushed my spirit and spanked His child to wake me up and see it. 1996 was no different, He was in me, 2001, I repented at home and returned to The Church of God. My 3rd wife confessed Him her Lord and Saviour, and was baptised, then the new wore off for her and I failed as the priest in the home. Then 2004, the Passion changed it all. I repented of my sins and confessed Him before the Church, as I had done in 1992 and have kept on to this day seeking Him. He is always on my mind, praise Jesus. My wife and I were seperated then, I had filed for divorce, God revealed to me this passage that I failed to do each time I came back and forth from Him. Matthew 6:33 "But ye seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." I let the enemy beat me up with me seeking more of my will than His. God really showed me all of who He is this time, I can relate to Jesus, He is my Lord, it took my total surrender on my part. Was that works, or mans doctrine, or was it the work of the Holy Spirit? All I had to do was humble myself, confess, repent, God crushed my spirit, and Jesus did the rest. Duty, if that is what allegiance is as being a soldier of the cross, then, so be it. But I do what I do because I believe, because I love Him, because He first loved me. Because of the blood He shed for my sake. 1 Peter 1:13-14 mention of obedience, it's in the Word, is that works, or is it what it says it is in the line above obedient children? Hope to the end for the grace that is brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Is it not my choice to be obedient, what fuels it? Love, love obeys. I focused on Jesus, and God fixed my life, my marriage restored and being what we were called to be, His.
I did nothing but seek Him, I believe that was faith. I had to repent, or I would have been in darkness. I had not asked for forgiveness for any of the sins I committed while being in the backslide arena. {don't be caught in darkness} {warning} And I repent each time now, when I miss the mark. Because that's what the Word says to do. Ever so thankful for His grace and I keep pressing on. Sorry, so long, and its late, my witness and opinion rests in closing with this a verse a brother gave me, awhile back.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13, For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but shall I know as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
only always for Christ Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

P.S. Brother blackeyed pea, what if your caught in darkness, with unrepented sin? What holds one back from humbling himself to confess, is that not pride? Is that not one sin God hates? Like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. Did Jesus not say repent for the kingdom is near? Repentance and choice are always at play.

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ggamble Said:

P.S. Brother blackeyed pea, what if your caught in darkness, with unrepented sin? What holds one back from humbling himself to confess, is that not pride? Is that not one sin God hates? Like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. Did Jesus not say repent for the kingdom is near? Repentance and choice are always at play.

ggamble,

On the specific and sole issue of Salvation, there are no "what ifs, maybes, close, in-betweens, etc." You are either Saved or you are lost, and you can only be Saved once. There is no installment plan on the part of the believer, specifically because JESUS finished the work on the Cross and man has nothing to add to a perfect sacrifice. All men sin, including Christians, and that is one of the primary reasons why JESUS died on the Cross for us.

Many people sit in church pews for years and are never Saved. If a person is Saved, there is only one kind of Salvation: ETERNAL. At the moment of Salvation, GOD has already promised Eternal Life to the new believer.

Remember, we are talking about the specific and sole issue of Salvation. There is NO on and off Salvation. You are either Saved or you are lost. You either have Eternal Life in JESUS or you don't. Here's the only "if" that applies: if you were truly Saved, you are Saved!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 NASB For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Quote from: blackeyedpeas on December 17, 2005, 02:09:40 AM

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ggamble Said:

P.S. Brother black eyed pea, what if your caught in darkness, with unrepented sin? What holds one back from humbling himself to confess, is that not pride? Is that not one sin God hates? Like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. Did Jesus not say repent for the kingdom is near? Repentance and choice are always at play.

gamble,

On the specific and sole issue of Salvation, there are no "what ifs, maybes, close, in-betweens, etc." You are either Saved or you are lost, and you can only be Saved once. There is no installment plan on the part of the believer, specifically because JESUS finished the work on the Cross and man has nothing to add to a perfect sacrifice. All men sin, including Christians, and that is one of the primary reasons why JESUS died on the Cross for us.

Many people sit in church pews for years and are never Saved. If a person is Saved, there is only one kind of Salvation: ETERNAL. At the moment of Salvation, GOD has already promised Eternal Life to the new believer.

Remember, we are talking about the specific and sole issue of Salvation. There is NO on and off Salvation. You are either Saved or you are lost. You either have Eternal Life in JESUS or you don't. Here's the only "if" that applies: if you were truly Saved, you are Saved!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 NASB For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

blackeyedpeas, greetings

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. {KJV} (Notice the "IF") That's the only real if in salvation.
Your telling me, confess not! It's been paid for! And we both know we are going to sin, right. Is not one sin a moment of darkness?
In the same since, bear with me, in John 3:10, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; {you just admitted we will sin}, for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {so whats this tell you?} Were born of God, through being reborn? Through Jesus right, the shed blood. Then it says you cannot sin. so by admitting your sin then here it says you are not born of God. Then not truly saved.
So how would you get back in right standing and be just? Through confession? As it says in 1 John 1:9.
I'm not trying to be funny or anything, but in 1 Thess. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. This is my quest. Also here in 1 Thess. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should not overtake you as a thief. Here we know Paul is talking about Christ return, and he's put out a warning {the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night, 1Thess5:2} He calls them brethren, we know that, that means Christians, brothers in Christ, family of God, born of God.
They are not under law, but saved through the blood of Christ. One sin is darkness, by what I have learned about the Father, for He is holy, pure light. That's why by His grace He gave His only begotten Son, to pay the price for our salvation. I would understand that "overtake" would mean also caught in sin. So that also tells me the threat of Satan, what he is trying to do, as in to ruin us with God. Which puts this other passage into knowledge for me from 1 Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he can devour;.......
Why would he do that if we are already them that are sealed, then what to our human understanding would be the purpose? Would he not be somewhere where someone is about to come to Christ and be saved? Since we are sealed, but can yet sin, why would that sin be so important to him.
Have you ever been with someone close to death, who is a Christian, he is still trying steal, as he kills and tries to destroy their hope. Why is he after us to sin, our nature is to blame not him, but why all the effort on his part. Will God's grace, forgive us if we do not ask? Trying not to sin, being alert as it says in 1 Peter 5:8 is that not works then, being on my guard. The last enemy to defeat is death, Jesus did that for us if we have made Him our Lord and Savior, Amen
I believe also you can only be born again one time, you can fall away, then you must repent, like Peter did.
Why all the warnings if its just that simple, I believe my witness points towards the 99 He left behind to find me, so why does that verse in Luke state one saved, which is what it is referring to because we belong to the Shepherd, then the effort of the Holy Spirit to hunt me down and bring me back, from the wages of sin right. the wages of sin is death, Romans. So He comes after me, why, to bring His sheep home safe from what danger, the sheep is unprotected, in this case losing something. The Shepherd coming after that one sheep because he is lost, from the herd, the family. There is good reason for this passage, for the warnings. And Gods unconditional love for us. If they are truly saved. Say you walk upright for 50 years and your the lost sheep and your devoured by wolves then. You say then he was not truly saved or, its been done, then why the effort to find him? You can justify any answer. Yes He died for our sins, and it comes down to choice, in all of it {salvation} not truly saved. Are the elite truly saved, if they are the elite, the saved, that will be received. The only way you could lose it, is by your choice. Why would backslide even be a term if repentance was not required. Again Adam and Eve made a choice, as did Satan, as did Judas. As will you and I. I cannot believe in anything that will bring one to justify sin, to suffer Him more, you must repent always.

2 Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those who oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
only and I mean only always for Christ Jesus
In the love of a brother of the way
gamble

Hi ggamble!

I myself have struggled with this topic somewhat. I know I have discussed it a few times with brother BEP and Allinall. I'm sort of middle of the road when it comes to OSAS/Backsliding. Perhaps leaning more to OSAS. The main reason I guess is that salvation is a free gift. We are adopted into the family of God when we accept Christ. He does not dis-own us when we sin. Yes, he does convict us. And yes we are going to sin. Granted, we as believers don't practice sin, but we will sin at times. When we do, the Holy Spirit convicts us to repent. Like Paul address, we do the things we don't want to do at times, and don't do the things we know we should. Who will deliver us from this wretched state we are in? Christ of course! By His grace and mercy.

Now then, what happens if we disobey the Holy Spirit and do not repent? Is there a point when we are no longer His Child (be it a wayward child)? I don't think there is, but please don't take my word for it. There is ample warning in scripture about falling away, but there is nothing in scripture about His free gift being taken back...at least that I have read.

I read your testimony, and must say that I can relate to it quite a bit. Mine is posted in the "Your Story About His Glory" thread. Some would say I was not saved the first time around, others might say I was and backslid, before returning to Christ. Like you, I certainly believed I was saved the first time around, and felt His presence in my life. I also certainly felt lost when I turned my back on God. The one thing I think is interesting about both our stories is..... we both find ourselves living for Christ at this moment regardless of what happened between first accepting Christ, and going our own way for a time. So were we really lost during that dark period of time? Or had we received His free gift, been adopted, gotten off track, and God came to find His Children? I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure He was there all the time, even though we were focused on ourselves. "He is faithful, even when we are not."

Thats just sort of where I am at the moment on this subject. I can perfectly see where you are coming from regarding this however. My thinking is, we are His and there's nothing we can do to get away from Him ;)

Grace and Peace!

Hello ggamble,

It was against my better judgment to go further and start an argument or a debate, so this will be it for me. Someone else might wish to debate this, but I don't.

No offense, but you are mixing quite a few Scriptures into the discussion that either: 1) don't pertain to Salvation after JESUS and the Cross, 2) or don't deal with Salvation issues at all.

Brother or sister - you haven't said which, it appears that you might have considerable confusion between Law and Grace, most specifically before the Cross and after the Cross. I would suggest that you do a concentrated study on the writings of the Apostle Paul. Start with Ephesians for the best understanding of what changed after the Cross.

A Christian does not lost Salvation because of a sin, repented or not. 100% assurance of Salvation isn't just possible, it is what GOD intended. The devil doesn't want anyone to have 100% assurance of Salvation, and that's the reason why JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS were and are the devil's worst nightmare. My 100% assurance of Salvation is based on JESUS and His finished work on the Cross, NOT ME. If there is any boasting, the boasting is in JESUS alone.

I'll give you a few hints for study, and maybe someone else will wish to argue or debate this with you further. The hints involve the study of Scripture: 1) don't isolate Scripture - study it in context, 2) determine if the portion pertains to before the Cross or after the Cross, 3) isolate Salvation and don't confuse it with exhortations for Christian living, exhortations for Christian testimony, rewards for good works, AND certainly not the Law. The Law NEVER saved anyone in human history, and the same would be true for good works, a person's own righteousness, living without sin, etc., etc., etc. One word will give you the ONLY answer: FAITH. AND, that FAITH will not be in yourself.

Brother or Sister, it would be wonderful if every Christian had 100% assurance of Salvation, and they can. It has nothing to do with self, rather the PROMISES OF GOD to His children. If one wishes to discuss the depth, quality, and joy of fellowship between a believer and JESUS, that is a subject beyond Salvation. It is very sad that many Christians confuse this with Salvation.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:21-22 NASB But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Greeting, 2nd Timothy

Thanks for the OSAS, way to type it, saves some time.
My main point is choice, and the effects of viewing OSAS as being a path of righteousness.
Blackeyedpeas, in his last reply, pointed to facts of before and after the invitation, that I should study. Then one thing that puts danger in the OSAS idea. The danger is to the weaker in the faith, for this very fact he stated. Your saved rather you repented or have unrepented sin, it does not matter. Which throws the scripture in 1John right out the window. About confessing our sins. The danger would give liberty to one to just go and live as if there need not be a changed life. They could just fall back to OSAS and walk on, or I'm under grace. No matter if they quench the Spirit when it comes to convict, and not repent which would be disobedience, which does not empower the Holy Spirit. So one would be leaking or worse yet running on empty.
The invitation is of choice to attend the wedding, and of choice if the party is not to your liking and you decide to leave. There is big danger in the OSAS point of view, for that very reason. I know BEP will read this, and I will have more to reply to his last reply. And I plan to read your witness and thank you for the invite to read it. God gives us revelation in His Word, the warnings are there for a good reason. And we must pay attention to every detail of its interpretation. Because then it is not systematic, which is a works for sure. It can lead to before, after and in between. And BEP, I sign the replies as brother, take no offence. We both believe it is Jesus who saves, in short, but the debate is its choice, which OSAS idealist say is works, verses OSAS in no matter what or how you walk. No boundaries. It's scary to view it that way, and see someone not see it right and walk as they wish, which would hold one accountable for what they taught them.
Hey Tim, brother, sorry I put some of my reply to BEP here, no disrespect to you brother. Keep pressing on.
In closing; it takes acts of obedience, to empower the Holy Spirit, and them acts come from the prompting of the Holy Ghost. The 99 says what I believe too, we are His, but if we resist. Then its a choice we made. It is a free gift, and we must be good stewards to what has been given and good stewards make good choices, we must choose right. We cannot do it, it takes the Holy Spirit to encourage us to do it, we are nothing apart from Him.

May the Lord, bless thee and keep thee
Only always for Christ Jesus
From the Love of A BROTHER in Jesus
gamble

Rev. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

A few things to ponder on while you study.

I know you are aware of these verses, but just posting for others who might be reading along.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is very clear is to how salvation is attained. Paul really hammers this point away in a number of his letters. I don't believe God changes the rules after we are saved. I think the biggest problem most converts have, is focusing more on works than on their relationship with Christ. Note that verse 10 above says WE are HIS workmanship.

And then of course we have....

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So which is it, Law or Grace?

I would say that if we as believers are trying to justify ourselves by the above passage, then we are walking outside of Grace. We can never be just in Gods eyes by law keeping apart from the Grace of Christ. Even our best good deeds are evil without Christ. It is humanly impossible for us to measure up to the Law, which was the whole purpose the word became Flesh and died on our behalf.

So how do we conform to Christ, walk as He did, and live by Grace?

This is where the rubber meets the road, and the sheep are divided from the goats. Simply, we live for Christ by making Him Lord over our lives. Remember, Jesus said many will call Him Lord, and He will say He never knew them. Yet, Peter denied the Lord and was restored!!! Many people I think want the benefits of Christ, without really making Him Lord over their lives. In simple terms, they want Him as Saviour but Not as Lord. (fire insurance is another way of saying it) When we focus on our relationship with Him, and put Him in the drivers seat of every aspect of our lives, conforming comes automatically out of our Love and adoration for our Lord and Saviour! And by this, we are walking in His Grace, His righteousness and the Father sees Jesus in charge instead of us.

If you're focusing on the Law, you've missed the meaning of Grace. If you're focused on Christ, the two will meet as God intended, and salvation and works will be evident in your life.

The real key is, making Him Lord over every part of our lives. I know I personally still struggle giving up certain areas in my own life, but this I think is what the Christian walk is really all about. Making Him Lord over all in my life.

I hope this makes sense. I used to really struggle with Grace and what it meant. Its something we don't deserve, and can't do for ourselves ;) Put Him first and the rest will start to fall into place, giving Him all the credit and glory He deserves! Maybe not all once, but it will!

Grace and Peace!

I've been thinking, praying and sleeping on this just a wee bit :D Just wanted to add a few more thoughts.

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Again in NASV

2Ti 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Verse 11 says...If we died with Him! Died to self, made Him Lord. The latter part of verse 12 says "if we deny Him, He will deny us" Is this referring to salvation? How can it, if the following verse says when we are faithless, HE remains faithful and cannot deny Himself? Remember, Peter denied Christ 3 times, was restored and became the Rock of the Church!!!

Could this be related to.....

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

These people who are not known by the Lord, are doing various works in His name, and even call Him Lord, yet Christ never knew them! Sad to say, these will most likely be Church going individuals as well.

So getting back to salvation/backsliding....

Scripture tells us that His sheep will hear His voice.

Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I was thinking about this last night, and back to the time when I was away from God. Even during that time, living in heaps of sin, I knew Him. I knew I was away from Him, and I knew I was living in sin. Do non-sheep know this? I don't believe so. I was hearing the voice of my true Master, even though I was reluctant to respond. Again, I think to ggambles testimony, and he states the same thing about realizing the state of his life. Funny how we are both back in the loving arms of God! 2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Is it possible that those who depart from the faith never to return, never really died to self thus returning to their true master, "the world", whereas those who still hear His voice, even as prodigal sons do? Me thinks yes!

Perhaps seeing OSAS in this light, changes my own perspective about that doctrine. I was telling Mr BEP's how reading my own posts, its almost as if God is speaking more to me than anyone else sometimes. :D

Lord, thank you being faithful even when I am not. Thank you for being Lord of my life. Make me what you want me to be, and conform me fully to the image of your precious son. We give you all the praise and glory, in Jesus name...AMEN!

Blessings!

Amen 2nd Timothy,

______________________

More About Jesus

John 4:13-14 NASB Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:21-24 NASB "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:27-29 NASB "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:39-51 NASB "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. "I am the bread of life. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Beneath The Cross Of Jesus

Beneath the cross of Jesus I fain would take my stand,
The shadow of a mighty rock within a weary land;
A home within the wilderness, a rest upon the way,
From the burning of the noontide heat, and the burden of the day.

O safe and happy shelter, O refuge tried and sweet,
O trusting place where Heaven’s love and Heaven’s justice meet!
As to the holy patriarch that wondrous dream was given,
So seems my Savior’s cross to me, a ladder up to heaven.

There lies beneath its shadow but on the further side
The darkness of an awful grave that gapes both deep and wide
And there between us stands the cross two arms outstretched to save
A watchman set to guard the way from that eternal grave.

Upon that cross of Jesus mine eyes at times can see
The very dying form of One Who suffered there for me;
And from my stricken heart with tears two wonders I confess;
The wonders of redeeming love and my unworthiness.

I take, O cross, thy shadow for my abiding place;
I ask no other sunshine than the sunshine of His face;
Content to let the world go by to know no gain or loss,
My sinful self my only shame, my glory all the cross.[/b]

Greetings, Blackeyedpeas

I've read the last replies from You and 2nd Timothy, and I believe this debate has been awesome, I've learned somethings and hope I passed on a few from my experience in Jesus. And hope I can open up the reasons to why I believe what I believe on this subject, I've went back in researched other things, and got some revelation as to why I did not pull out this one scripture I'm about to dive into.
I really liked the devotional today in Oswald Chambers, "My Utmost for His Highest" on "The test of loyalty", December 18. His devotion which I have been using for about the last 5 months always seem to hit right where God is doing some sanctifying work in me, this week has been no exception. I love that, opening up of them doors of truth. I believe it hit home on this debate to some good things being done. We have all seen this line being expressed in this debate.
To be faithful in every circumstance means that we have only one loyalty, and that is our Lord. This line also; It is only the loyal soul who believes that God engineers circumstances. Just like this debate, Amen. And the verse Oswald used to steer this devotion which is one of my favorite verses in Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for the good to them that love God".
And I believe this debate has been heading that way from the start, Amen. So let me get going on what I have to discuss and lay the ground work of where I put my boundaries and why. Here we go!
2Pe 2:19-22
BEP, I have used your guidelines in researching these scriptures. I have heard this used many times to as being after salvation, which is not all bad, because it makes a man stop in his tracks, but it also does not give the true meaning, hopefully it would stop a non- believer from not following through, to which is the reason for its writing from what I have studied. The kicker is "if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ", this is easy to claim that they are saved by how this is written.
{LABNIV} commentary puts this on verses 2:20-22 --- Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved, and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because he or she has rejected the only way out of sin, the only way of salvation. Like a person sinking in quicksand who refuses to grab the rope thrown him or her, the one who turns away from Christ casts aside his or her only means of escape.
It takes acts of obedience to empower the Holy Spirit, I've seen people come to Christ, confess Him, Lord and Saviour and not follow through, and I did not see in them the conversion happening, they express the peace they have, and its good to know I'm saved now, but the Holy Spirit coming upon them, I did not seem to see them, get it or see it for real. In a reply from DigitGen he said the Holy Spirit comes right in as soon as they confess Him. It should if their heart was right in the confessing. Then yes, He is there, but it takes acts of obedience to empower His work. It would seem these verses in 2nd Peter would be coming into play then, and I have seen that being done in them that did as I just explained and some are still in that arena. The reason they are is because someone told them that your ok, because OSAS, your in and then justify the sinful nature they still remain in, saying Jesus knew I was going to do this, its forgiven, and never ask for forgiveness just walk still in their self-will flesh, professing His name as the bases of their salvation.
As I said to 2nd Timothy, I cannot excuse sin because of OSAS. I do believe the Lord will come after His sheep, the Hound of Heaven comes, and God can humble a person, remember King Neb, in Daniel, it took some eating grass, and Jonah, it took the whale, for three days and some seaweed, to be obedient.
That's His love for us, so I will not commit to once saved always saved. The reason is in my reply to 2nd Timothy. But I do know from experience He comes after you, but you have to repent or your quenching the Spirit. And I have heard that from Hebrews 6, it was explained as He will can harden your heart, and leave you in your mire, if you choose to forsake Him. He will not forsake you because He will go after the one, and leave the 99 to find you. Only His sheep, not a goat.
And 2nd Timothy brought that to the truth with 2 Tim 2:13 and John 10:28, which put it pretty well to that as a fact.
But I cannot agree with an unrepent sin, and your still right with Him, because of what that would tell a new believer, or one weak in the walk.
I just feel better telling someone it comes down to choice, because it takes an act of obedience to empower the Holy Spirit, one has to have their heart right when he confesses Him. You have to walk the walk, in true faith and loyality.
I don't believe if one has unrepented sin that it has been done for them at the moment of their salvation, because what would be the point. And in 1 John it says He is faithful and will forgive us, if we ask. OSAS leaves to much open area for the enemy to come in and people will not be applying truth to anything, its just dangerous for one to think in that matter and to take that grace for granted. Grace has a lot to do with sanctification. I take the grace given to me and learn from that error, it is to teach you also. We are to become Christ-like.
When one takes the sacrament they should have repented of their sins before hand.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. {KJV}
{LABNIV commentary} We should examine ourselves to any unconfessed sin or resentful attitude. We are to be properly based on belief in and love for Christ.
Its just dangerous to leave OSAS on the plate for a believer if the whole Gospel is not explained to them. As I said we have to be good stewards of the gift that has been given us, in which we have to make good choices, and thats where I call it choice.
Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called. {KJV}
One other translation has the word "perserved" as "kept" for Christ Jesus. Here is a quote from a Baptist pastor, that I kept close to my heart when I heard him preach on courage.
"The amount of courage in our lives, is determined on our understanding that we are kept for Christ Jesus." (Dr. Ronald Floyd)
Now that word "understanding" must be seeded into OSAS, and alert us always to what the promise was all about, and what the gift meant, in the fashion of how we should live our lives for Him and not suffer Him more. This statement even goes deeper than that for me, but wow, is it not good, and full of encouragement towards anything we will face.
BEP, brother I know we are closer than we think, but I hope you see my reasons and concerns for the statement OSAS.
Maybe the statement should say "We are His, saved by grace, called to be good stewards with the free gift He has given us, through His Son, our blessed hope, Christ Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, our hope is in our calling."
Then everything is in there dealing with salvation.
Here's another thing I learned in 1996, as was when I learned that from Dr. Floyd. This one was from a missionary named Jim Elliot,
"He is no fool who gives up what cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
It inspired a song from the Lord in me back then, here it is.

To Gain What He Cannot Lose

Lord help me, Lord help me stay in Your care
For the world keeps on call 'n, but I've already been there
for the choices of many have broken my heart
But You Lord have been faithful, oh how great Thou art

***************CHORUS******************************
when I was there it was just complete misery
Attacks from the devil, and just depending on me
Oh, how I wonder, why it's so hard for folks to choose
He is no fool, who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose
*******************************************************

Oh, now I know about suffering, I can relate to Jesus
I only have to look around me to those God wants to touch
And I pray for the many who persecute me
Oh, Lord God, turn'em around, their only being deceived
********************************************************
CHORUS
********************************************************
So many exchange their love for another
But their bound by chains, in their desires they smoother
For never will know true love in their heart
That Jesus can give them, if they'de just let Him start
********************************************************
CHORUS & REPEAT CHORUS
********************************************************
Given to G. Gamble - April 1996 (c) Two-G's Music
Key of E -----Chord rotation -E-A- 4/4 time

I'll close now, this debate has been divine, in the truths, Praise Jesus.
And leave on this quote from the beloved brother Peter Marshall.
"Give us clear vision that we may know where to stand and what to stand for, because unless we stand for something we will fall for anything." in Jesus name, Amen

May the Lord bless thee, and keep thee
only, always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Hello Brother GGamble,

This has simply been a pleasant discussion between Brothers in Christ, so I have enjoyed it. I had first feared that it would be just another argument, but it hasn't been, and I think that GOD has been glorified with this discussion.

I had several very pleasant thoughts when I was reading your post, and they regarded new Christians. I look back and remember many, many who were really saved and some who simply had some sort of experience that did not amount to Salvation. I was thinking about how many desperate people there are and how horrible some of their problems are. Some have tried just about everything and they are so miserable that they are anxious to try anything else that comes along. I don't know that I will use words that explain this right, but I'm going to try. Salvation isn't just something to try or experiment with. It must be real, rather than one of those "try before you buy" type experiences. The pain, misery, and agony of many people needing JESUS is almost beyond belief. Being ready to try anything is not enough for Salvation. It can be tried before men, but nothing less than REAL will be accepted by GOD. If it is REAL, the Holy Spirit of GOD enters the heart of the new believer RIGHT NOW!, and the person is reborn as a child of GOD, not of flesh, RATHER BY SPIRIT, and the person is BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. If it wasn't real, it's simply a person saying that they tried to be a Christian, and we know that a person can't try to be a Christian. Without the Holy Spirit of God, the person had little more than some sort of emotional experience.

Now, I'm thinking about a REAL, new Christian. They are known as a Babe in Christ. What do they do and where do they go from there? Have they felt the TRUE JOY in JESUS or the TRUE STRENGTH in JESUS at that moment? The answer is "NO". A Babe in Christ is TRULY SAVED, but they haven't claimed the contents of the massive "Treasure Chest of Spiritual Riches, Joy, and Strength" that JESUS has opened for them and wants them to take. NOW, there are many other things to either claim with zeal, take with some degree of enthusiasm, take in a lethargic manner, or just look at the treasures and wait. Everything that is taken defines the level of fellowship with Christ and other Christians, and everything requires work with the right attitude. There are a massive number of variables, but the biggest ones are right attitude, interest, effort, prayer, yielding to the will of GOD, and the biggest one: letting the Holy Spirit of God in your heart rule, direct, teach, and lead. Many precious portions of Scripture instruct this new Christian "THAT THEIR JOY MAY BE MORE FULL." The last few words are very important, and you will see them many times in the Scripture. They deal with all Christians, certainly not just the new Christians or the Babes in Christ. They never quit speaking to the hearts of Christians, regardless of how mature and strong they are in JESUS. The instructions are impossible to master, and there are always "STUMBLES" AND "FALLS" along the way. Many of the failures that Christians suffer in their walk in the spirit are rendered as "STUMBLE" from the ancient texts. "FALL" is many times rendered in the same manner from the same root word. I used the word "failure", but we know that our Lord and Saviour never fails. We "stumble", but JESUS doesn't. Here's the major question that should result from these thoughts: What happens if the REAL new Christian never grows - are they still saved? Are they still saved if they don't bear any fruit? YES, but they didn't have the JOY JESUS wanted them to have.

Now, let's talk about the Christian who wishes to claim and enjoy all of the spiritual riches that JESUS wants to give them. This is the doctrine that confuses a lot of people, and some connect it with Salvation. "Fullness of Joy" in JESUS always involves many good works, lots of effort, and much fruit. "REWARDS" are offered by GOD for these efforts, and the "REWARD" is over and beyond Salvation. The "REWARDS" are very conditional, and they should not be confused with Salvation. A loss of "REWARDS" is not a loss of Salvation. Here's a fairly simple explanation for "REWARDS": 1) good works not done for recognition or REWARD, 2) good works done simply out of a heart of love and appreciation for JESUS, 3) good works done ONLY for the Glory of God - not man or self. The REWARDS are real and they are eternal, but they should never be confused with Salvation. A Christian who does good works for REWARDS will NEVER get one. A Christian who does good works for recognition of self or anything other than the Glory of God will see those good works burned up and mean nothing. Only the good works done in pure love of JESUS will be counted for eternal REWARDS. NOW, if you go back to the portions of Scripture that stated "that your joy might be more full", you will find the good works that are counted for REWARDS. This is important - good works are never counted for Salvation, nor will they ever be. Many portions of Scripture also pertain to Christian living, Christian testimony before men, and evidence of a Christian life before men. None of these things ARE OR EQUAL Salvation.

Brother, most of this post pertains to what Christians SHOULD do for "fulness of joy", Christian living, and Christian testimony before men. These all most OBVIOUSLY involve good works and many other things associated with the quality of our Walk in the Spirit. However, they are not the things that save us, nor are they the things that keep us saved. Faith in JESUS, HIS Blood, and the Cross is what saves us. Once we are saved, JESUS holds us, keeps us, never forsakes us, and no power can pluck us out of HIS MIGHTY HANDS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 103:1-5 NASB A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul, And all that is within me, bless His holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits; Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases; Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion; Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.

Romans 5:20-21 NASB The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote from: 2nd Timothy on December 17, 2005, 10:31:40 AM

AMEN!!! :) ;)

Quote from: 2nd Timothy on December 17, 2005, 10:56:44 PM

AMENAMENAAAAMEEENNN!!! I think, in my life at least, the thing I've come to realize is that I don't make Jesus Lord of my life. I remember that my life was bought with a price, and I am not my own. Great post bro!

Greetings All,

The proof that your old man is crucufied with Christ is the amazing ease with which the life of God in you enables you to obey the voice of Jesus Christ.

Oswald Chambers

I did not have room in my last reply to state my referring to the phase "caught in darkness" as coming from John's letters. When in fact it came from Pauls, which I used in the next reply. I should have took the time to research the correct direction of the scripture I was referring too. I ask your forgiveness if I miss lead anyone to its origin. Sorry guys.

Oswald says it like I see it, like I walk it, not for it, because of works, certainly not for rewards, I even don't know that much about any reward. I don't keep a score card, I just pray, and listen and keep alert to the windows God opens up.
Some points this debate has also brought out is the importantence of discipleship. Its one thing Christians have really failed to do. Jesus had 12, Paul had Luke, Silas, many it seems in different times. Peter, I know had John Mark. What proves that Christians have not met the mark to which they have been called, "to make disciples".
Schools today, what is going on now with taking Chrsit out of Christmas, the United States in general, the world for that matter.
I wonder if the fear of doing works, was what happened, to cause that error. Or just plain old being lazy, and works justified it. Or, the fear to stand for what is right, in accordance to their belief.

This the season of Our Lord & Saviour, Our Blessed Hope, King of kings, Christ Jesus, its all about Him. And what He was born to give us. Blessed be His glorious name. the glory of His righteousness and wonders of His LOVE!
Oh, Joy to the world, the Lord is coming again.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only, always for Christ Jesus
Merry Christmas to all,,,,,,,,,,,
ggamble

"God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

Hello Brother GGamble,

We really do live in hard, confusing, and evil times, and things appear to be getting worse by the day. It's pretty discouraging when a Christian really wants to make a difference and the burdens for what's wrong in our world seems unsurmountable. Well, they are unsurmountable, but we shouldn't let that ruin our attitude. We can and should do what God leads us to do and concentrate on the burdens on our hearts. Maybe those burdens bothering us the most involve family members and close friends who are lost. We can pray that God helps us, guides us, and gives us strength for what HE wants done. In the end, the biggest burdens on our hearts might or might not be resolved, but we can be assured that God's Word will never be wasted, and God will continue to use it. So, there might come a time when we feel there is nothing else we can do for those we love or feel closest to. All we might be able to do is pray and simply give some of those burdens to JESUS. In the meantime, we should still be doing what HE leads us to do.

This is a sad and depressing world, but this isn't our world. Our citizenship is in Heaven, and we are simply here on a temporary visa. If we pray an ask, God will lead us and direct us to do what He wants us to do while we are here in this short life. The rewards that God promises should never be a motivator for what we do or how we do it. Our love and appreciation for JESUS should be the only motivator. There is more, but it doesn't deal with eternal rewards, rather of things we can enjoy right now in this life. I'm talking about being closer to JESUS and enjoying a deeper and more satisfying fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. This feels good, and it makes a Christian happy, even though we are still here in this short life. GOD tells us in the Holy Bible how we can live this life as Victory in JESUS. We won't solve all the problems of this world, but we can yield to GOD and let HIM use us in whatever way He Wills. This will result in us being a happy Christian, even here. The "REWARDS" really don't come to mind very often, and we really don't know what they will be. The rewards shouldn't come to mind anyway since they must not be a motivator for the good works we do.

Brother GGamble, just knowing that we have yielded to what God wants us to do should make us happy. If that means sweeping the floor or emptying the trash for the church, so be it. If God uses us to point someone to Christ, that will simply be Glory for GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:19-20 NASB And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Greetings, BEP

Amen, on your last reply, I don't think I have an attitude about the errors of discipleship, or that Christians failed to making a stand. But I always hear the complaining about why things are the way they are. And then I resort back to us as the church may have missed the mark. The ground work for these things of today were intact long before I was here. And I have certainly been also one who has complained. And hope I don't miss the calling I'm to do, when called to do it. Then discipleship holds dear to my heart, and on another thread I put some of that on there. {Why?/Christians Unite}
The Lord lead me to a web-site that has some pages that put a lot of what has been discussed on this thread into great detail. And I was wondering if I could place the address here for others to check out?
I only had one problem with my looking over the site. And that was them listing charismatic denominations as a cult.
Now cult to me means, they are on the wrong side or demonic and deceived and divided from the body of Christ.
Some I will agree, go outside what is taught in the fashion of keeping good order. But they also were converted, drawn from the Father to His Son to receive grace and believe in faith in what happened at the cross. To label them as a cult, sort of places them in judgement of them.
Was David charismatic, because he danced before the ark, sung praises openly in his worship of the Lord, played stringed instruments? He surely knew about Jesus, {referring to Psalms 110}. The gifts thing, seems to put one as not in lines with the Word of God, to some. But I'll get back to this thread, it just seems that cult is a strong direction and says that they are not of the saved. The signs thing in order to believe, things they experience in their walk with Jesus come after they have went through conversion. Now handling of snakes, well, that I don't know. But I know I have not been called to do that. But many that are considered charismatic, don't handle snakes as proof of their faith.
My denominations founder of "The Foursquare Church" was Aimee Semple McPherson, and our now Corporate President/Cheif Executive Officer is Pastor Jack Hayford founder of "The Church on the Way", if I can put that on here. I know he loves the Lord, and I know who did that for him.
Jesus is Lord, could a cult member say that?
But the study that is on that web about this topic is backed and right in lines with the Word. I learned somethings there myself.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever. {KJV}
in Jesus name, Amen

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee.
Only, always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

December 28th. Oswald Chamber's "My Utmost for His Highest"

CONTINUOUS CONVERSION

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children. . . ." Matthew 18:3

These words of Our Lord are true of our initial conversion, but we have to be continuously converted all the days of our lives, continually to turn to God as children. If we trust to our wits instead of to God, we produce consequences for which God will hold us responsible. Immediately our bodies are brought into new conditions by the providence of God, we have to see that our natural life obeys the dictates of the Spirit of God. Because we have done it once is no proof that we shall do it again. The relation of the natural to the spiritual is one of continuous conversion, and it is the one thing we object to. In every setting in which we are put, the Spirit of God remains unchanged and His salvation unaltered, but we have to "put on the new man." God holds us responsible every time we refuse to convert ourselves, our reason for refusing is wilful obstinacy. Our natural life must not rule, God must rule in us.

The hindrance in our spiritual life is that we will not be continually converted, there are wadges of obstinacy where our pride spits at the throne of God and says - I won't. We deify independence and wilfulness and call them by the wrong name. What God looks on as obstinate weakness, we call strength. There are whole tracts of our lives which have not yet been brought into subjection, and it can only be done by this continuous conversion. Slowly but surely we can claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God.

These last 3 post's were all devotionals for today. Two from Charles Spurgeon, the last from Oswald Chambers. They all deal right with this debate.
At the end of the last post, Spurgeon writes "be thou much in prayer for grace that thou mayest never leave thy Lord, nor even for a moment forsake His ways.
He's point was.
Persistance in prayer is vital for effective intercession. We can develop persistance by continuing steadfastly in prayer and seeking the Lord. {New Living Translation, TouchPoints for Men, TYNDALE}

1 Chronicles 16:11 Search for the Lord and His strength, and keep on searching. (NLT)

May the Lord keep thee, and bless thee
Only, always for Jesus
in the love of a brother in Christ
ggamble

Hello Brother GKB,

You are certainly right about all of us learning, and the same would still be true if we studied day and night for hundreds of years.

I can easily give you many reasons why the devil attacks Christians. He wants us to be weak, living in defeat, not strong enough to witness to others, and that would also include the members of our own family. A strong Christian living every day in the Victory of JESUS is a nightmare for the devil. The devil can't snatch us away from JESUS CHRIST, but the devil might be able to create enough doubt and other negative things that we would just be another defeated and barren Christian.

The devil knows that he can't break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and he certainly knows that he can't drive the HOLY SPIRIT out of our hearts. No power can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and No power can cause GOD to break HIS promise of eternal life. The Holy Spirit is also part of that PROMISE, along with many other things that haven't even been mentioned here yet. In fact, there is a long list of ABSOLUTE FACTS regarding Salvation. If a single one of those facts are untrue, it would make GOD a liar, and that IS NOT possible. We all know that the devil would love to make people doubt the Word and Promises of GOD and make GOD a liar. In all reality, "Once Saved - NOT Always Saved" does call GOD a liar on a lengthy list of Promises connected to Salvation.

I have no problem at all in believing that a person was never saved in the first place and was simply warming a spot on a church pew. BUT, if a person is TRULY Saved, the Promises of GOD will be kept perfectly. I know that nobody here is intentionally hinting that GOD could or would lie. I would make this extremely simple: If GOD says that you have eternal life in JESUS - COUNT IT SO AND DONE!! If GOD said it, there is only one thing for us to say: Amen! - It is so!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:8-9 NASB But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

John 10:27-28 NASB "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I TOO BELIEVE IN BORN AGAIN!
Being BORN AGAIN ?Is a 2nd BIRTH.This birth is of our spirits.The 1st birth is of adam the 2nd is of the 2nd adam .JESUS CHRIST .It is a real birth ,just as profound as the 1st birth.
We become NEW CREATURES like never before our example JESUS CHRIST!.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
THIS IS WHO WE ARE LIKE ,ONCE WE HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD!
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
BECAUSE OUR NEW SPIRITS ARE PERFECT AND KEPT BY JESUS CHRIST FOREVER PERFECT!
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
ph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
__________________
those born of GOD ,can not sin1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

And I believe when 1st born od gOD ,we are babys in the spirit.And grow by the living WORD.Then we need to learn to walk in our new creature.This is walking in our spirits,led by HIS SPIRIT!
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
THE POWER IS IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!
WE ARE COUNTED AS THE FAMILY OF GOD,HERE OR THERE!
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
WE ARE TO HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE HOLY GHOST!

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
HE GETS ALL THE GLORY AND HONOR,BECAUSE HE DOES IT ALL!
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The new creature cannot sin ,so?He cannot lose salvation!
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Quote from: GKB on December 29, 2005, 03:57:56 AM

this is such an interesting and joyous site.

let me just say this and than i'm going to leave it. we claim to know so much, instead of just humbling ourselves and just admiting we are still learning....no one but god is the authority and so we better yeild to him before we go preaching things that will put his children in danger.

IF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED WERE TRUE, THE DEVIL WOULD LEAVE YOU ALONE AFTER YOU GOT SAVED. the devil banks on our ignorance... if osas were true, than why does the devil bother to still tempt us? for what? he only tried to tempt jesus when he thought there was a chance he could trick him. its a shame to say, but to often the devil knows more about what matters than what us christians and religious leaders claims to know. think what you want to think, the devil knows that if he can trick you into sin, he can get you into hell....there must be some consequence otherwise he'd leave you alone.....

come on christians....we are on the battlefeild! when lust is conceived it brings forth sin, and sin when it is finished brings forth death!

Leaving? You can't leave! We'll have to hunt you down and tape your hands to your keyboard Brother and make you keep typing! ;D Seriously, agree to disagree, but don't leave. We'd miss ya. :)

Personally, I believe OSAS. Remember my friend, logic is good, but sometimes can get us into trouble. The logic that says our continued salvation is dependent upon our resisting the devil's temptation...gives the devil power over God! Does he truly have that? Reread the book of Job and then think about this question again. But, likewise, the logic that says OSAS so I can live any way I want puts us with our backs to the battlefield and, "sin when it is finished brings forth death." That's one less light to shine before men. That's one light that will be with Jesus, but with nothing but His blood to show for it.

I truly believe that I'm saved for good regardless of what I do. But because of what He did for me, I want to do what's best in, and for Him. And if you don't believe the same as me...Jesus Christ and Him crucified...we'll get over it. :)

PRAISE THE LORD BROTHERS AND SITERS,

thank you all for the wonderful feed back! but let me ask you, what do you make of hewbrews 6:4-6:6 FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTENCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH,AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME.

or lets take hewbrews 10:26? for if we sin willfully after that we have received knowledge of the truth, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRAFICE FOR SINS,.( you could read on further if you like)!

sin breaks fellowship with god, so how can we willfully do it and still gain the kingdom of heaven?

how about luke 9:62 AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, NO MAN, HAVING PUT HIS HAND TO THE PLOW AND LOOKING BACK IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD! this he said to a man who wanted to go back to his family, how much more to those who go back to sin?

you know, what i'm finding is that if we search hard enough we could find scripture to back up sin (which is what the devil specializes in) i have had a man use scripture to show me that homosexuallity was alright by god, and if i didn't know what i know about the lord, he could have very well tricked me....according to him, it was right there in the scripture.

i'm saying that to say this, i could use scripture to make any situation go my way if i am a skilled manipulator... i'm not saying thats anybody here, but i know god would not tell me not to sin, i go outright disobey him and sin, and still go to heaven....i don't even have to repent or nothing....that is far from the truth. did god give his word and say, here are the commandments, but do what ever you want you'll go to heaven anyway!

well, i will do my best to stay free of willful sins, and repent of those that i make or make and not know of...because living holy is in my best interest....and yours too.

check out the story of noah, than check out the story of moses.....these folk were warned!

Quote from: DigitGen on December 08, 2005, 11:57:27 PM

The new birth is as real as the first birth. The Lord Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6)."

   When a child is born into the world, a new life comes into existence. This life has a human nature, which is sinful. It is therefore subject to death. This is the birth that Jesus called "the flesh" and the result of that birth is flesh. This life cannot change its nature. It is as the grass that withers, and as a flower that falls away (I Peter 1:24). To be saved does not mean that this life which is born of the flesh is changed or made over. This cannot happen, for its nature cannot be changed. That is the condition that makes the new birth imperative. The only thing God can do with the flesh is to judge it, and judgment results in condemnation and execution (Romans 8:3, Galatians 2:19: Romans 6:6).

   The new birth is a birth of the Spirit. It is to be "...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13)." Peter says, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever (I Peter 1:23)." This seed not only lives forever, but it has also been revealed that it remains in the one who is born of God (I John 3:9). Such a life must be eternal and that is what Jesus said it is (John 3:16). That life which is eternal cannot die. All who are born of incorruptible seed have an incorruptible nature and have eternal life. It is impossible for such to be lost, for that would mean the corruption of the divine nature and the death of that which cannot die. By the new birth, one who has already been born into the human race is born into the Spiritual realm, that is, the Kingdom of God. This is the only way to see or enter that realm (John 3:3,5).

   "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation): old things are passed away; behold all things are become new (II Corinthians 5:17)." This verse speaks of the old conditions, which existed for the unsaved man, as passed away, and behold, all brand new conditions exist for the saved man - the one who is born again.

   When the new birth takes place many irreversible things take place. The Bible states that the one who is born again has:

1) Received everlasting life (John 3:16)
2) Been born again (I John 5:1)
3) Been born of incorruptible seed (I Peter 1:23)
4) This incorruptible seed remaining in him (I John 3:9)
5) Become a son of God (John 1:12)
6) Become a new creation (II Corinthians 5:17)
7) Been passed from death unto life (John 5:24)
8) Been exempted from future condemnation (John 5:24)
9) Been redeemed from under the law (Galatians 4:5)
10) Been redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 4:5)
11) Become dead to the law (Romans 7:4)
12) Received an eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)
13) Been reconciled to God (II Corinthians 5:18)
14) Peace with God (Romans 5:1)
15) Been justified (Romans 5:1)
16) All trespasses forgiven him (Colossians 2:13)
17) Been delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
18) Been translated into the kingdom of the Son of God (Colossians 1:13)
19) Been perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
20) His sins no more remembered (Hebrews 10:17)
21) His sins removed as far as the East is from the West (Psalms 103:12)
22) Been made complete in Christ (Colossians 2:10)
23) Been accepted of God (Ephesians 1:6)
24) Been born of the Spirit of God (John 3:6)
25) Been baptized by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 12:13)
26) Been indwelt by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 6:19-20)
27) Been sealed with God's Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)
28) Become the object of God's love (Ephesians 2:4)
29) Become the object of God's grace (Romans 6:14)
30) Become the object of God's power (Ephesians 1:19)
31) Become the object of God's faithfulness (I Corinthians 1:9)
32) Become a citizen of heaven (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20)
33) Been seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6)
34) Been already glorified (Romans 8:30)
35) Been given a home in heaven (John 14:1-3)
36) Been kept by the power of God (I Peter 1:5)
37) Been crucified with Christ (Galatians (2:20)
38) Been buried with Christ (Romans 6:4)
39) Been resurrected with Christ (Ephesians 2:6)

   All of the above plus many other things are true about one who has trusted Jesus Christ as his Savior and as a result become born-again. Not a single individual who has been born into the human race has been able to remove himself from it. Many have committed suicide, but all they have done is to shorten the days of their earthly existence. Their existence still continues on and on into the eternity of the future. Still some teach that one who has been saved can be lost. By analogy with the human race, this is impossible. A person cannot become unborn physically, nor can he become unborn spiritually. No provision is given in the Word of God for one to become unborn. "That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6)."

   One only becomes born-again once. Nowhere does this imply that you become born again, then unborn, then born again, then unborn, and so on. Once you trust Christ and are born-again all of the above list of things happen to you. If you could be unborn, all would have to be made void, but all of the above list is eternal and irreversible.

   Jesus promised the believer, "...I will in no wise cast you out (John 6:37)." Also, Jesus said of those that are saved, "...I should lose nothing, but should raise it (them) up again at the last day (John 6:39)." Jesus promised that he would never lose a person who was saved. If one person were ever lost after having been born-again, then Jesus would be a liar. Friend, that can never happen. (See Titus 1:2).

   The only ground upon which God does anything for man is the gift of His Own Son. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE (John 3:16)."

What happened when you trusted Christ? At least 39 things happened that make it impossible for you to ever be lost! Praise the Lord!

Great post. Thank you
God bless you,
bluelake

Hello Blad, GKB,

The Bible teaches that when a person becomes a Christian that they are born of God and are a new creation. The Bible teaches that the part that is born again cannot sin and is incorruptible. I asked many people who believe a true Christian can lose their salvation what happens to the “New Man” when this happens. None have answered so far. Seeing that the “New Man” cannot sin and is incorruptible how can a true Christian lose their salvation? What happens to the “New Man” if a person truly could lose their salvation?

1Pe 1:23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1Jo 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

2Co 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

The part that God creates in us at our new birth is referred to as the new man.

Eph 4:24 “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

Col 3:10 “And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

Yet, while we live in these fleshly bodies there is a part of us that is prone to sin and in fact cannot even submit to God. Paul recognized this in the book of Romans.

Rom 7:15 “For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Rom 8:7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

This is why a true Christian who is involved in sin is most miserable. There is a part of him that continues to rebel against God if allowed control of the soul, and a part of him that seeks to serve God if allowed to control the soul. This is why victory in Christ is simple in doctrine (walk in the Spirit) yet sometimes difficult in practice. When we sin it is because we yield to the flesh rather than the Spirit. When we please God it is because we yield to the new man which walks in the Spirit. As long as a Christian remains in their fleshly body they will struggle with the flesh.

The wilful sin mentioned in Hebrews 10 is not talking about sin in general, but of a specific sin, that sin of apostasy if it were possible. Instead of teaching that one can lose their salvation the passage teaches just the opposite if rightly understood.

http://www.nlbchapel.org/heb6.htm

“Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it and therefore losing their salvation, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus Christ and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a true Christian COULD reject this then there is no hope for him, seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

The hypothetical is the only way I know of that allows these verses to fall in perfect harmony with the rest of Scriptures. I hope this may help some. May God open all of our eyes of understanding.”

If interested you can read the whole article here: http://www.nlbchapel.org/heb6.htm

Pilgrim

The general tenor of Scripture is that once a person is born again, they CANNOT lose their salvation. Due to many reasons. I may even venture to conjecture that Israel is a magnificent picture of this. Over and over and over again they've screwed up to put it succinctly. Yet, they are still God's nation. Have they lose their place as the Treasure of God's eye, or His chosen people? No. Salvation is come first to the Jew then the Gentiles if I remember Romans states. To say that we could lose our salvation would mean that God would go back on His Word. Is it not true that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but all come to everlasting life? If this is true, then why should He go back on His word. If we lost our salvation, we would be in essense going back to that unregenerate and totally depraved state (and unwilling and unable to come to Christ of our own free will) that we were before the Holy Spirit stepped into our lives. God initiates Salvation ONCE. Not over and over again. The author of Hebrews understood this. Hence why he penned the words in 6:4-6. You can't get any more exact than that. Go look at the greek if you don't believe me. This is not directed at anyone, but I will offer up this challenge. DO NOT have your ears itched and just take on a whim what someone else tells you. Instead search it yourself. That will mean getting down to the core structure of the sentence and the language it is written in. I've studied it myself. I am a second semester freshman at a christian university where our motto is "Christ makes the difference" I am about to enter into Theological Research and Writing and Greek 1 my next semester. Make the jump and dive into God's truths. Quit using the overused church terminology that is so prevalent in today's church and use a biblically based, systematic theology, THEN you'll understand the deeper truths of God. And I will conjecture to state that the eternal security of the believer is one of those truths. Why? because I know it personally to be true. Now if some would question am I saved...good for them, but I kn ow my creator and my sustainer. Just a few thoughts.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Quote

In Corinthians, he is talking to Christians right? What happen then to the person in I Corinthinas Chapter 5? The person who is a fornicator/adulterer? If he will not repent is he saved?

He is talking to the church here in Corinth not necessarily all Christians. As we all know it is possible for some to attend church all their lives and still not be saved. In this situation there were people of influence that were telling the Christians that it was ok to continue in their sins without regard to the teachings of Christ and without feeling any convictions for doing so.

Quote

In Galatians, he is talking also tho Christains right? What does verse one means?

Which verse 1 do you mean here, there are 6 chapters? Chapter 5? That is the chapter in which Paul specifically mentions fornication. We have the statement in this verse of "liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." This is saying that we are not under the law (bondage), it does not mean that we are to take all liberties and sin as we desire. When a person is saved such things will be known to us as wrong and we should do all we can to attempt not to do them. It does not mean that if we have a moment of weakness that we will be condemned to death.

In both of these situations Paul was talking about individuals that did not want to change nor try to follow God. By not trying to follow in the Steps of Jesus they were rejecting him right from the very start. If we truly love Jesus we will attempt to do what is right.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Quote from: Pastor Roger on February 05, 2006, 07:44:43 PM

I know a Christian who have received Jesus Christ, a Christian who was really passionate to saved a soul. And who for a long time have been living a Christian life. Because of he is passionate in saving life he told us that he will talk to the prostitutes. What he did is go to the night clubs and really talk to them. We talked to him that he will be tempted there but he said who will go to them. so he goes almost every week, then everyday. I do not what happened coz' he was not able to come to church one time and i heard that he is committing adultery. Some talked to him about it but he just slowly went his way and he transferred to another town. I do not know what happened but I grieved for him. Now Pastor Roger, if the man did not repent, is the man saved still?

Quote from: Pastor Roger on February 05, 2006, 07:44:43 PM

I am tlaking about chapter 5

Greetings Friends,

Amen Pastor Roger, here is something I came across in a devotional this past week something very deep to consider and meditate on that Oswald Chambers brings out from these three words "If any Man" and "option with it". The scriptures in these shed some light on these last replies on this thread.

There is nothing easier than getting saved because it is God's sovereign work - Come unto Me and I will save you. Our Lord never lays down the conditions of discipleship as the conditions of salvation. We are condemned to salvation through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Discipleship has an option with it -- "If any man......"
Quoted from "My Utmost for His Highest" Oswald Chambers ** Feb, 2 ----

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. {KJV}
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. {KJV}
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. {KJV}
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. {KJV}
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. {KJV}

Some other verses that give that "option with it" in the truth, His Word.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. {KJV}
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. {KJV}
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. {KJV}

These sheds light on and, to the next verse.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {KJV}

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

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Theology => General Theology => Topic started by: DigitGen on December 08, 2005, 11:57:27 PM