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    No one on the planet earth is speaking in the Biblical gift of tongues.  Not one person, yet there are thousands of persons who are claiming that they do speak in tongues.  What is happening?  What is going on?

     The Biblical gift of tongues was the ability to speak in a known foreign language without any prior training for the purpose of evangelizing the lost.  No one is speaking in a foreign language without training today!

     What about the baptism of the Holy Spirit?  Every believer has the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the moment they trust the Lord as their Saviour.  I Corinthians 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond for free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."  According to this verse, the baptism of the Spirit is the act of God whereby we are placed into the body of Christ.  I Corinthians 12:27 goes on to say, "Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular."  If you are not in the body of Christ, you are not saved.  The baptism of the Spirit is the means by which we are placed into Christ's body.  All believers have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

     Before tongues ceased (I Corinthians 12:30), only a few spoke in tongues even when the gift was operative.

     Pentecost will never be repeated, nor can it be.  Pentecost will not be repeated anymore than Calvary will be repeated.  The word Pentecost means fifty days.  It occurred fifty days after the resurrection of Christ.  We are now nearly 700,000 days since the resurrection.

     On the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:5-8 records, "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.  And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans?  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

     "Dialektos" is the Greek word translated language (Acts 2:6) and tongues (Acts 2:8).  This Greek word refers to more than a specific language.  It refers to the very dialect of the language.  For example, there are many dialects of the English language.  If you were to visit Plains, Georgia, you would hear one dialect of English.  If you were to visit the Carolina's, you would hear one dialect of English.  Now, how about Brooklyn, New York, or what about Boston, Mass.?  Each has a distinct dialect.  Then if you were to visit England, you would find a totally different dialect of English, yet the British are speaking English, aren't they?

     Let's imagine what happened at Pentecost, and let's say that you were there.  Let's say that you were born in Plains, Georgia.  You know, and everyone else knows, that few folks on the earth speak that brand (dialect) of English.  You are in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.  A Jew approaches you.  He is uneducated and has been raised around Galilee.  He is a fisherman and has never traveled out of Israel.  All of a sudden he speaks to you in Plains, Georgia English.  You would have to admit this is a miracle.  This Jew sounds just as though he was raised next to Jimmy Carter.  It must feel great to be in a foreign country and hear someone who sounds like they are from back home.  This Jew then gives you the gospel message in your native tongue.  Friend, that is what happened at Pentecost.

     Acts 2:5 says, Jews from every nation were visiting Jerusalem.  Acts 2:6 says that these foreigners heard the gospel in the dialect of the language wherein they were born.

     Why did God give the tongues (known foreign language) gift?  In I Corinthians 14:21 we read, "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord."  Isaiah had predicted that God would turn to the Gentiles during this age, after the rejection of Christ, and that He would give the gospel to the Jews in Gentile languages.  At Pentecost this required a miracle.  To witness to these foreign born Jews in a Gentile language required that God give them that language dialect on the spot.

     As the gospel went to the Gentile nations the gift became unnecessary.  For example, I witness to Jewish people in the Gentile tongue of English.  German Christians witness to Jews in their country in German.  French Christians witness to Jews in their country in French and so on.  I think it would be rare indeed if any Jew on the earth today heard the Gospel in Hebrew.  They are hearing it in Gentile languages just like Isaiah prophesied.  I love to make it a point to tell Jewish people that I am fulfilling prophecy by telling them of their Messiah in a Gentile language.  It is exciting!

     Tongues are for reaching the lost!  I Corinthians 14:22 says, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:"

     Tongues were to be easily understood.  I Corinthians 14:9 says, "So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?  For you speak into the air."

     The gibberish that is being done today is not the Biblical gift of tongues.  The Pentecostals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Roman Catholics, and others are doing this gibberish.  People of world religions also do it, such as the Buddhists and the Mohammedans.  It is done by the cults, like the Mormons.  It is done by the occult.  A medium in a satanic seance will break into the same unintelligible speech described above!

     The Biblical gift of tongues has ceased (I Corinthians 13:8-10) and is not present today!  What we are seeing is a sign of the return of Christ.  Jesus said, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs, and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (Matthew 24:24)."

     Tongues are a sign that Christ is coming.  Beware of the deception!  Watch for the soon coming Jesus Christ.

Well said DigitGen! :D

Thank you, but I just hope that it is not just those that understand it that see this God bless!
in his love and grace,
David Winn

digitgen,

according to your faith be it unto you. here we go again trying to limit jesus to our understanding. i was going to scripturelly correct you, but i decided i'd give it to you simple, not to mention it appears that you've come across the scriptures on some level. i believe that your statement about other nations being able to understand is accurate, however, i also believe that there is a heavenly language that is between me and god specifically.

heres the thing that i love the most about the truth. the truth is the truth rather you believe it or not. it only becomes true for YOU when you believe it. god is not limited to what you believe or how you've interpreted what he said, only you are!

Keep in mind that Scripture does contain absolutes truths GKB.

 I commend you for all you said in this post DigitGen. You are right on the ball. Keep up the good work.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Excuse me RBK but what is more important is that his word describes him and how he is and what he does, and even if an angel with wings as wide as constelations came down and wanted me to give me a new revelation I would would ask his for a scripture reference and if he would not give me one he is not to be trusted. and you are correct in that the holy spirit prays for us cause we don't know what we should pray for, but he does so in groanings WHICH CANNOT BE UTTERED not to mention that the special way God tends to speak to them or (so they believe) can usually be traced to be purely of emotion and emotions the bible says are from the heart (the 'center' of the flesh) and the heart is... Jer.17:9
and last but not least
PR.28:26He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
PR.18:2fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
God 'speaking to you' starts at his word and I have never seen it there in special language
In his Love and Grace,
David Winn

let me ask you scholars,

did god stop giving out gifts? or does he only give gifts that you believe? gods gifting is not on trial. he has given out gifts of the holy spirit, prophecies, healings, tongues, interpretations of tongues, etc...because you haven't gotten one doesn't mean hes not god, or that he has ceased to give these gifts. perhaps your faith has not belived for these miracles, doesn't mean they do not exsist, just means they do not exsist for you! perhaps you should ask jesus instead of creating a doctrine of your own and teaching it..god is not limited to your understanding, you are!

Yes, it is still possible for the gift of tongues to be given to someone to fit the purpose of God. After all all things are possible with God. However to much emphasis is put on this gift. Some today even say that one is not saved unless they "prove it" by speaking in tongues. There are many that seek this gift to the extent of ignoring others.



1Co 14:6  Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7  And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8  For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9  So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10  There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11  Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Co 14:12  Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


1Co 14:19  Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I am not completely certain these gifts are gone it is just my best interpretation. But what I am certain of what the gift is and its purpose, and it is quite clear on this. There is no don't that this gift's purpose in to win the lost and this babble that is done in churches today is not it, Tell me what purpose it would serve to do this babble to an unsaved person He Will Laugh At You! Now if he were to be Russian and know that you do not speak russian and you were to suddenly speak a perfect russian with the specific dialect <dialectos> of the city he was from you will amaze him and demonstrate the awesome power of God, and I believe you would win him (well the Holy spirit would you know what I mean), now to those who had this gift they may demonstrate it in church but the verse he cited tells them to have a translator for the russian he speaks or what language he speak in. Because the Greeks and hebrews or whoever was there, probably would not understand. Not to mention they DID NOT have a complete bible even in their language but now I have over 130 bible translations that are complete in over 100 languages, the word is not hidden to other countries even close to as much as it was back then. There was an astronomical need back then for that gift, but the major problem today is not a lack of the word it is a lack of care, That lack of care God will not give them signs, thousands of people cames to see what Jesus was about, to see if he is what he said he is, They cared, today the people do not. Even Thomas Genuinely wanted to know today people are so concerned with aquiring & polishing their private space on the Titanic.

Eccesiastes 10:5a. There is [another] evil [which] I have seen under the sun, 6Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich are seated in [a] low place. 7I saw servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth
Afflicted but still..
In his Love and Grace,
David Winn

Lots of good posts. DigitGen says:
... but if that was actually true, then what about Acts 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" - indeed, if tongues were so easily understood, it wouldn't occured to anyone to ask what it means. And people would definitely not have alleged drunkkenness, as you see in verse 13.

So when you write off tongues that you personally don't happen to understand as occult and satanic, I see it as like verse 13. And Peter goes on to explain it in verses 14-36.

That said - I'm certainly not going to disagree with you that Jesus might be coming again any time soon. As it says in Acts 1:7, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

So I'm broadly with GKB and Pastor Roger on this one. The gift of either speaking in tongues or of understanding tongues isn't everything. If you've got it, great. If you only seem to have it some of the time, well that's fine too. But if you never seem to have the gift at all, that's not a problem. You certainly don't need to prove that you have the gift in order to be saved. Indeed, the idea that you're guaranteed to be saved because you spoke in tongues once a little while ago is fallacious.

Speaking in tongues does not give you a licence to commit sins and not ask forgiveness for them. It doesn't give you a licence to pass judgement on others either. But then again, we shouldn't be ignoring God and judging other people anyway - if we want to be saved.

Well done frederic,

digitgen, if you are worried about rather people will laugh at you, you are in for a lifetime of dissappointment. as a matter of fact, i've laughed at some of what you've said already, but thats neither here nor there. i know people who interprets tongues, so there goes that theory! it sounds to me like you are trying to convince me that because man has created some other translations of the bible, a portion of gods gifting has expired. god made it plainly clear when he said "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith th lord" isaiah 55:8. i don't need you to understand what i am talking about but i would like you to know what jesus is talking about. i will not budge when it comes to the things of god. you weren't there when he found me, you did not experience the power of that gift flowing through you, and for that i offer my condolences. but what he has done in me and through me is non-negotiable. you will never understand with your crainial knowledge, because the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are none of his. we keep trying to mix spiritual buisness with natural buisness...wanting to figure god out....well he requires you to believe somethings that you do not understand, hence the reason for faith....let he with an ear hear!

Is this statement to mean that if you have not spoke in tongues then you are not His? Whether you meant that or not this is what you have said? Do you really mean this?

thats not what i am saying, what i am saying is that only the spirit of god can know the things of  god. tongues are one of those things, however it is certainly not limited to tongues. tongues is not going to be everyones gift, and i understand the frustration that some have with an assembly of believers and every one of them speak in tongues every single sunday, however, whatever your gifts are i hope that they are used frequently, otherwise what is the purpose of your gift in the body? if you know god, you wouldn't denounce his gifts to your very limited understanding.

I seriously hope that's not what he's saying, cause we're gonna have a big problem if that's the case. :-D I happen to agree with what you have stated DigitGen. You have provided a biblical basis for what you have state...that's all we can ask of you. The thing I will say is biblically speaking...it seems that tongues have ceased and I will say this first and foremost...do not jump on that statement because I am making a generalized statement. I know some out there are like wolves ready to argue at a moment's notice that tongues are indeed used. I've never seen them used...and I have been witness to the power of God. I do NOT have the gift of tongues...my gifts lie elsewhere. As have been prevalent in my writing and my theology. Such may be the same case...it's up to the individual person as to whether they believe tongues are still around or not. Personally, I have studied and have come to the conclusion that they have ceased. Biblical tongues that is. Many others hold that stance as well, however, i'm not going to limit God to what He can do. He may very well use tongues...however, not in a widespread usage as in Biblical period. If you study the words for tongues in the greek, you'll learn that they were in reference to an actual language spoken on this earth, not a 'special' prayer language. God is the author of all language, and there is one language that He speaks rather fluently and that's the language of the heart. Why do we need a special language to communicate with God in our prayers when we speak to Him directly from our heart? I'm just offering up those questions to think about, not to respond. This subject has been battered and worn out for decades if not centuries. Even Paul spoke against false usage of tongues...i believe to the Corinthians, but enough about that. Tongues are not essential to the salvation of the soul, nor are the essential in the church today. Also, I will not stand here and write off tongues. I will say this though GKB, cranial knowledge is not a bad thing to have when discussing matters of Biblical interpretation and hermenutics my friend. Not everyone has to have "cranial" knowledge in order to be saved...nor am I saying that anyone has to have it, but after you are saved, we are told to study to show ourselves a workman approved unto God if I remember correctly. It's around, oh say 2 Timothy 2

15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene.
ESV

I'll give you the KJV and the NLT to further convey my statement concerning scholarship.

 15Work hard so God can approve you. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.

NLT

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

KJV


Just a few thoughts. God Bless

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I just saw your post, and i'm glad that's not what you were saying GKB. Thought i'd add that. Now we're all on the same page. :-D

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Amen. I'm glad we agree.

by the way, i have seen the gift of tongues do a mighty work in countless lives. so we can't say it is not needed. becausse you haven't seen it, i imagine it would be hard for you to understand where i'm coming from. just like before i knew jesus for myself, it was hard for me to imagine how close you could actually be to him. you need the holy spirit! without it you are none of his! do you need scripture or should i allow you to study to show yourself approved?

I have studied the Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 states it beautifully. The Holy Spirit is essential in the Believer's life as a means of conviction, and it is the way whereby God continues that workmanship that Paul speaks about in Philippians 1:6. Continuing it until the Day of Jesus Christ. I've been a believer for 4 full years and I've never seen the usage of tongues in a Biblical sense. I have witnessed what seemed to be the usages of tongues...however it was nothing but senseless babble. There was definately spirits in that place, but it wasn't of God, otherwise, I'd have been at peace with God's work. You see, it's common among believers to have a sense of familiarity with those who are fellow believers. Our spirit rejoices with another's spirit, and that was not felt when I witnessed these "tongues" Afterward I have spend since then countless hours studying the gift of tongues amongst other doctrine to see whether or not it is biblical. So I will state this: I'm studying to show myself approved...will the rest of you take that challenge? :-D You see, I like to challenge people and provoke thought, much like I was once and often still am. :-D God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

i'm not saying this is so, but i am just asking, what if the spirit that was not like gods was your own? if you were in an atmosphere where people were celebrating jesus, and you couldn't quite feel enough to shout to the lord, perhaps the problem wasn't the believers, perhaps the problem was the non-believer! god is not and will never be limited to your understanding of his power....because you do not believe does not mean its not true, it just means its not true for you. however, it may be the place you were in, maybe they were off, but i don't know because i wasn't there!

I have just finished reading all these posts about the tongues controversy.I was intially saved thru the ministry of a layman that was affiliated with a pentecostal church.  After I studied what the bible had to say about the operation of the gift of tongues, I came to the conclusion that most churches that practice tongues in their meetings do not follow the scriptural guidlines that  Paul gave in 1Corintians, chapter 14.  Are tongues still a valid gift in the church today?  my answer is I am not sure. But I do know this from personal observation, most, if not all tonhues I have seen practiced in public meetings are not following bibical guidelines.Today I am amember of a baptist church and not a charismatic churh

i'm going to say this, and than i am going to leave it alone. people are and have always been afraid of what they do not fully understand with their carnal minds. everything about about christ is not suppose to make sense to your carnal mind. i've seen the gift of tongues active, i've seen the gift of interpretation active. but i guess i witnessed these things because i'd rather believe jesus instead of people....yeah, i chose to lean not to my own understanding. but i realize when you begin to know and love the lord for real, you instantly become a minority. so in this life i do not expect many to agree with me, i just have to know what i know. i simplly know that my life has changed since this jesus that i've come in contact with entered in. i've tried all these "churches" none of which were able to change my life. so i'll just be crazy enough to stick with what works...even if you or for that matter i don't understand it! the holy spirit has done amazing things in my life and i will not write him off to conform to a person or people who would still rather believe what they can figure out. be warned to be careful that you do not mistakenly enter into blasphemy! a mans ways are right in his own eyes, but only the lord can weigh the spirits. so who are we to say the lords spirit doesn't exisist in any area? you are limited to your beliefs, not the lord.

Brothers and Sisters,

I have no idea how many threads we have on the forum about tongues, but I have heard many different beliefs about tongues for my entire life. There has been argument, jealousy, and strife over various gifts for 2,000 years. YES, the Apostle Paul addressed conflicts over gifts.

Brother GKB, I've never heard anyone say that agreement or disagreement with tongues was or could be associated with blasphemy. I'm certainly not aware of any Scripture that would indicate this, and the same would be true that having certain gifts or not having certain gifts was the difference between being lost or saved. I do know beyond any doubt that arguments over gifts have caused a lot of division and trouble for Christians over the last 2,000 years. I really think that many people are far to sensitive over gifts, and this is not an issue that should be allowed to cause division and trouble between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Everyone in this discussion probably has somewhat different views of certain gifts, but those differences should not be a reason to break fellowship. In the days of the Apostle Paul, many people used real and/or false gifts for personal recognition that did not honor God. In effect, some of them were having righteousness contests with each other and used gifts in the contest. It caused trouble in the churches, and the Apostle Paul addressed it to restore peace. Some of the very things that caused trouble 2,000 years ago are still causing trouble today.

As an individual, I think that tongues were known languages used for sharing the Gospel of the Grace of GOD, but I won't argue or debate this. In my mind and opinion, I believe there are Scriptures that specifically address this, and some have already been mentioned. Again, I won't argue or debate these Scriptures, but I would like to make one comment that should always apply to all of us. If the Apostle Paul were involved in this thread, he would be making statements to make peace and keep peace between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In fact, the Apostle Paul did just that in a conflict much like this over gifts. The Apostle Paul had one goal in his ministry that was more important than the others:  To make all men see.... The Unity Of the SPIRIT.... and the bond of PEACE. This was and is a beautiful TRUTH!

Christians were and are members of the same body, the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. Unity of the SPIRIT pertains to the Holy Spirit of GOD that we all share in our hearts. You will see many references to "being of one mind". Many would say this is impossible because of all the denominations and differences of man. Well, here's a NEWS FLASH for all of us - Christians are already united in the BODY OF CHRIST for eternity. The "bond of peace" dealt with how we should treat each other and what we should not allow to cause division and trouble among us. Obviously, any division or trouble we will have among us is while we are still alive in this short life on earth. There is no division or trouble between Brothers and Sisters who have already gone home to be with the LORD, and the same will be true for all of us one day.

Brothers and Sisters, I know beyond any doubt that there are ways for us to discuss differences in love if we are Christians. We've done it here many times, and it is a fascinating learning experience that leads to some really good Bible studies. On the other side of the coin, we've had many arguments and debates here that failed to do much except to make some folks mad and others have hurt feelings. The mix of people involved is always different, so I don't have a clue about what the secret formula is for having a pleasant discussion over differences that honors GOD. There are just too many variables, and the only answer seems to be to stop things when it gets out of hand.

I was just thinking about some outstanding discussions that involved serious Bible study, everyone learning something, and God being honored at the same time. BUT, I also remember the opposite kind where nearly everyone involved misbehaved, including one or more moderators. YES, that includes me, and I'm not proud of those times. Maybe the real answer is to learn when it is right to simply agree to disagree and stop. In other times, it is possible to have lengthy and great discussions between people who really want to study differing views. And, many don't involve a single problem. I think it really depends on everyone wanting to keep peace up front and everyone wanting to study views that are somewhat different from their own.

The bottom line is we should all try very hard to keep peace with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. In the times when this appears to be impossible, maybe we should be the first to simply say, "We'll have to agree to disagree" and stop. This doesn't fit all circumstances, but it should fit most of them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 3:14-19 NASB  For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

BEP, i really do appreciate and agree with the majority of what you said, specifically as it relates to keeping the peace in a forum that is geared toward blessing and honoring god. if i appear to be angry, please note that i'm not. as a matter of fact i'm glad that you posted the previous post.

i am simply giving my stand point on the matter. not to affend, but to raise our level reception as it relates to the things of god.

let me explain why i said we must be careful that we are not tricked into blasphemy. 1 cor 12:8-11 reads For to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit; (9) to another faith by the same spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit; (10) to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) but all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit, dividing to everyman severally as he will.

this scripture lets me know that for the sake of the  body of christ all of the spiritual gifts are at work. if we still have miracles, or discerning, etc... why not tongues? it is the same spirit that gives them all. how is the gifts of tongues outdated, and phrophecy not? there in the same scripture in the same book. now that spirit that gives them is the holy spirit. do we agree??? if so read on. if not you can stop here.

next i need to take you over to matt 12:31 and it reads wherefore i say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the holy ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (you can read as far as 12:32 if you like), and mark 3:29 reads but he that shall blaspheme against the holy ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

now let me take  you over to romans 8:26 likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: BUT THE SPIRIT ITSELF MAKETH INTERCESSION FOR US WITH GROANINGS WHICH CANNOT BE UTTERED (27) and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of god. so here we see the the spirit through groanings by the holy ghost making intercession for us in a language that is not for the nations to understand, but for the lord god only...agree? good, read on.

so the bible has given us to know that the spirit of god has given out the gift of tongues for the purpose of intercession, if i denounce the gifts of the spirit, do i mistakenly denounce the spirit that has the power to give these gifts? i know in our minds we'd like to tell ourselves no, but if i reject the works of the holy ghost, i reject the holy ghost....and i speak against its power. now heres the scriptures just in case anyone thinks that i am talking out the side of my head. i am not just teaching or talking what a religion taught me, i'm teaching what the bible teaches...this is not for the sake of disagreement but instead i'd like you to not limit the holy ghost or his power....this is why i said we may be slipping into blasphemy against the holy spirit. but bep, pastor roger, etc. you need not respond, if you can get anything from this, great if not, discard it. i will still love you all in the name of jesus. ( i mean that, i have really grown to appreciate you guys, but even if i haven't, i'd love you in jesus name.) you see the spirit can pray for some things that you and i can't...oh its real, the question is, is it or will it ever be real for you? :)

Hello Brother GKB,

Yes, now I understand your line of thinking, and I will study the Scriptures that you presented. I many times DO feel led to sincerely study points of view that are different than mine. I will enjoy studying these Scriptures and try to keep an open mind.

Please do accept this blunt statement about GOD: I know beyond any doubt that HE is all powerful and can do anything HE wishes in heaven or on earth. I would never try to define or limit the power of Almighty God, and I would be the first to say that HIS ways are past finding out. The only limits I would put on GOD regard HIM being completely HOLY, PERFECT, UNABLE TO LIE, AND REPRESENT COMPLETE AND TOTAL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

If I think about limits, failures, or anything negative, my thoughts are always about men - NEVER GOD! My doubts are never in GOD, rather in men who claim to be doing things in the Name of GOD. I'm thinking about some outlandish things that I've seen some television preachers do and say. I'm not thinking about tongues, rather some things that nearly all Christians would consider to be outlandish. Now, we have the opposite side of that coin you were talking about. If a man or a woman knows they are doing something false in the Name of God, that man or woman would deserve the rebuke - NOT GOD. I MUST be honest and tell you that I've seen some things involving tongues that I thought were little more than stage shows for huge amounts of money. Let me repeat that I would be doubting the man or the woman - NEVER GOD.

I'm open to discuss this matter further, but only if everyone in the discussion wanted a proper and peaceful discussion between Brothers and Sisters in Christ. The debate area allows more than this, to include heated debate, but I don't feel led to do this any more. This is something that I've prayed about for a long time, and I feel led to reserve anything harsh and blunt for false teachers, the devil, and a lengthy list of things that we've already had here on the forum numerous times. We've had witches, warlocks, skinheads, nudists, muslims, and just about everything you can dream of here, and many came simply to mock God or destroy Christian fellowship. I gave you a very short list and didn't mention a lengthy list of false cults and religions who were determined to claim a pulpit here.

The types of problems I mentioned above have nothing to do with Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I really have seen many excellent discussions about differences that didn't need to be in the debate area. Many more people feel welcome to join this type of discussion. Brother, you are most welcome to start a discussion on tongues here or in the debate section. It is a matter that has been debated for almost 2,000 years. Just for me as an individual, I would join a mild discussion and try to avoid a hot one.

I only speak for myself. Others might enjoy a hot discussion, and that perfectly fine for anyone who wishes to join in. We already have several who have shown interest in this topic, so everyone please feel free to discuss however you wish. I would simply comment that it would really be nice if at the end all of the participants would enjoy having another discussion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:7-8 NASB  "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.  "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

GKB,

I agree that with you that if someone were to say that the Holy Spirit could not do things anymore would be blasphemy. To say that the Holy Spirit does not do them anymore, I would not necessarily consider it to be blasphemy. There is a fine line. However I personally do not think that would be true either. What I mean here is that I do believe that the Holy Spirit does still give this gift and does so as it suits the purpose of God.

I also believe that it is a danger for people to say that they have this gift when in truth they do not. This I do believe is happening with many people today. It is based on a desire to belong, to make other men think that they are a righteous individual. This is also taught against. There are those that say they are speaking in tongues that simply repeat the same unintelligible word over and over again but when it is interpreted it comes out as a very long statement without any repetitions.

False use of this gift can be as detrimental as it is to say that the Holy Spirit does not use it at all. It can lead people away from Him.



 

please accept my apology . I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, All I was doing was showing what I had observed,  I was in no way implying that the spiritual gifts are not in operation today. I personally do  belive the spititual gifts are goimg to be in operation during rhe entire church age.  I repeat I am sorry that I sort of threw gasoline on the flame.

Friarbob,

Not a problem, Brothers and Sisters in Christ must learn to get along and discuss differences without anger. This is just another lesson for us all to show that we can have differences and remain in love as Brothers and Sisters in Christ should have.

WOW and I was worried that things might be made a mess while I was gone at work but it has turned out quite well and an excelent read after a few days of meaningless work
blessed in his love and grace,
David Winn

BEP, Pastor roger, digitgen, and others:

i do not debate the things of god, because the things of god are not up for discussion as far as i am concerned. the only reason i indulge in some of these conversations is because i really view you all as brothers and sisters. I only want to share  with you what god has shared with me. there are many things that you all have shared with me that has blessed me tremendously, i pray the you all will receive what has the power to bless you tremendously. i do not argue the things of god, i share the things of god.

bep, i understand where you are coming from in reguards to men and women falsely imitating the things of god, and trust me, i am in total agreement (if you knew me in person you would know how true this is)...but i do not want the false people to discourage or limit the sons and daughters of god.

sometimes we are so careful not to become false that we cheat ourselves out of what is real...however, i understand. i hope no one is offended...and i pray that your further studies will bless you.

digitgen, "if" your purpose for striking this conversation was because you knew the truth and wanted others to know, well than job well done! hoipefully we will all continue to learn from each other as a body....bless you all. merry christmas and happy new year! TO GOD BE THE GLORY FOR THE THINGS HE HAS DONE!

Brothers and Sisters,

I was reading some Scriptures while reading the posts here. I was hit with some very simple thoughts that I feel led to share. They might or might not even pertain to our discussion.

As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit of God living in our hearts.

Every good thing comes from above!

Psalms 113:3 NASB  From the rising of the sun to its setting The name of the LORD is to be praised.

Philippians 3:20-21 NASB  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 139:9-10 NASB  If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

bep,

i hear and i agree, i'm just not completely clear on what point you are making. please clearify for me. you did say you wasn't sure if it related or not, but still, what were you feeling whan you said to yourself, let me share this? what about it hit you?

Hello GKB,

The point was that there are some very simply TRUTHS for Christians that are much more important than tongues. Christians do have the Holy Spirit of God living in their hearts, and that FACT is much more important than whether tongues are still a gift today or not. The SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT on our hearts is proof we are Saved. The Holy Bible also describes this Holy Seal as a pledge of the eternal Promises of God. Quite bluntly, this is a thousand times more important than tongues. So, I wasn't saying anything for or against tongues, rather about something that is much more important. I already stated my opinion about tongues in another post, but I'm saying in this one that Salvation is what really matters, not tongues.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:8-10 NASB  But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Hey BEP,

praise the lord. all of gods truths matter. many people aare confessing the holy spirit, and they have no power or evidence. i'm not judging those people, i just will not lie to them and tell them they're ok the way they are. you must be baptized, in jesus name, and filled with the holy spirit. its time out for having church people teach us church doctrine...scripture after scripture and still have not heard, the pharasees were very good at that...it doesn't move me. i do not need a religion, i need a relationship with god. relationship will always take you deeper than religion. what can be more important than the things of god? i didn't start this topic, i just responded. i do not really expect people to celebrate and agree with me, but thats the price i'll have to pay to "cry loud and spare not"! you will not find many to agree with what they have not yet not found. of course those people who claim to know god and to be religious scholars won't agree with a gift they haven't embraced. but glory be to god for whatever gifts they have embraced, we are one body....god bless you all!

Hello GKB,

You seem to be telling us that if we don't speak in tongues that we have no power, no evidence, and are like Pharisees. That's certainly the way that I read your post, and you would be quite wrong.

Real or false, speaking in tongues was a matter of pride, vanity, disruption in the church, and division in the days of the Apostle Paul. It appears that nothing has changed in 2,000 years. I would simply say that tongues are nothing in comparison to what the Holy Spirit of God can and does give the children of God. The best things are the quiet and Holy things of GOD that do not relate to the pride and vanity of men.

I, for one, have no desire at all to speak in tongues, play with snakes, drink poison, etc., etc. God has already given me many things that are 1,000 times more important. The list is lengthy, and I give all Glory to God. If I Glory or Boast in anything, it will be in JESUS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 7:18-19 NASB  For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

how could you dare say that speaking in tongues is a sin? (pride is a sin correct?) how did your research lead you to that truth? please, please be careful brother, not to enter into blasphemy. you do not think its strange that as a child of god you do not have a desire for, or even look down on one or any of gods gifts to the point where you have wrote it off as a prideful gift? who do you think you are, really? if god hasn't written it off, how dare you. but i see this level of learning has gone in a terrible direction, so as not to cause you to get yourself into trouble with god, i'll be very careful how i make my points and use wisdom to only give you what you can handle.. god bless you my brother.

it would be a terrible shame to spend years in church, and never know god for real. not saying that if you haven't spoke in tongues you don't know god for real, but saying how can a common man, human, FLESH, denounce any of gods gifting and write it off as a sin to be blessed with a spiritual gift? dangerous...VERY DANGEROUS. on those things that you know nothing about, it would do you better not to speak on. please note that i love you in jesus name....to god be the glory for the things that he has done. there are many gifts, tongues is one of them and i dare not be so bold as to start trying to teach god...i'd rather be the student here. humble yourself and harden not your heart...you are in very dangerous territory and it would serve you well not speak on those things that god hasn't released to your understanding.

don't be angry if i wash his feet with my tears, and i dry them with my hair. author=blackeyedpealink=board=7;threadid=9383;start=30#msg117616 date=1135874283]

Hello GKB,

You seem to be telling us that if we don't speak in tongues that we have no power, no evidence, and are like Pharisees. That's certainly the way that I read your post, and you would be quite wrong.

Real or false, speaking in tongues was a matter of pride, vanity, disruption in the church, and division in the days of the Apostle Paul. It appears that nothing has changed in 2,000 years. I would simply say that tongues are nothing in comparison to what the Holy Spirit of God can and does give the children of God. The best things are the quiet and Holy things of GOD that do not relate to the pride and vanity of men.

I, for one, have no desire at all to speak in tongues, play with snakes, drink poison, etc., etc. God has already given me many things that are 1,000 times more important. The list is lengthy, and I give all Glory to God. If I Glory or Boast in anything, it will be in JESUS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 7:18-19 NASB  For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

GKB,


Such statements as this shows where your pride is and it makes one think that it is not in the word or power of God but rather in yourself making such harsh judgements of another. I warn you GKB to be careful of such judgements of others. This is also considered a direct attack on another and such attacks here on CU will not be tolerated. It also shows a direct lack of understanding of Gods (not gods) word.

Speaking in tongues is definitely a gift from God but it is not the most important one. I suggest that you do a very close study on 1 Co 14 on this subject. It is more important for us to have understanding and above all charity. Is it not more important for unbelievers to be able to understand Gods word than to wonder if those speaking in tongues are all out of their minds? To many people put their pride into showing off in front of others with their use of tongues, seeking this gift while putting aside the seeking of understanding and that of charity. That is where the pride comes in.




1Co 14:14  For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


1Co 14:19  Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20  Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21  In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Co 14:23  If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24  But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
 

That is a very broad statement to make. Are you in every nuke and cranny of the earth to hear? If you were riding on a bus and the guys in the seat in front of you were talking in a language foreign to you how would you know it was not foreign to one of them?

Prove to me your statement is true..... Dont bother to quote

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV
 
Because then i will challenge you to prove what you know not what you believe but what you know to be a fact etc.. Your opening statement was stated as a fact not as a belief so please respond as to how you obtained this fact  etc.

I will be 60 years old this coming year.... most of that 60 years has been spent in  Pentecostal churches. what i have read here from some of the tongue talkers is the phoniness i have know all those years...self-righteous pious and bigoted.

If asked  i would say both of my Grandmothers are with Jesus...

One was mean and grumpy Christian a tongue talker who talked about every one..... The other a kind Christ like women who loved the Lord and served others. If she spoke in tongues it was privet and not about bragging rights.


 Heavenly language is not a scriptural term.

pastor roger,

you have received my response wrong. how could me saying that because of love and peace, i will use greater wisdom in my responses be indication to you that i am being judgemental, and no longer qualify to reply on cu. i thought that it was ok to disagree, as long as we're not disagreeable. these messages that i have given are given in love...even if you do not receive them this way, thats the way they are given. with all that was said, it amazes me that this is the only point that you responded to.

when ever we are being stretched, there is some uncomfortability. we shouldn't become angry and focus on the one thing that we were able to find flaw in, but rather we should focus on that part that challenges us to growth.

i ask you to please do not ban my statements if they are not in absolute agreemnet with yours. somebody may be blessed by them, even if its not you. nothing i have said is demonic, and i certainly haven't denounced jesus, so lets learn, love, and grow together.

once again there are some wonderful things that i have learned from all of you here....so i do appreciate you all, please do not misinterpret that....love always in jesus name!

There was no misunderstanding your statement that you were showing wisdom and that you were saying that Brother Tom (blackeyedpeas) did not have that wisdom. No matter how you twist it or try to soften it with the words "in love" that was the jist of your statement towards him.

As for the rest of my post it had nothing to do with that and was a response to your other points. A matter of being able to understand the written word.


One more point .... I did not say that you no longer qualify to respond on CU.

god bless you pastor roger in jesus name! i'll use the wisdom thats available to me, and you use the wisdom that is available to you....doesn't mean you do not have wisdom, it means there are different levels of wisdom. i'm not saying mine is greater or his, i'm just saying that i'll use that which has been given to me. nothing was twisted, i have no need for that for i am backed by the holy spirit. so if i was to explian a point to clarify so that we as brother can have greater understanding, it shouldn'e be attacked....thats what i'm saying here....instead of receieving that post in the love it was given, you became affended, than you started judging and saying things that are a direct attack against my character, so who's going to regulate you?

i am not against you brother, we have a common purpose...to spread the gospel of jesus, not of man! and rather you agree or not, that is done in love! how, by the way, can you twist love?

reba, trinity is not a scriptural term, but many use it frequently!

GKB,

???   ::)

I've said what I said, I meant it, and I would say it again, so just read my previous post again. I have no concern at all that GOD will be displeased with anything I said. How about you? I'll move this thread now to the debate section. Anyone who wishes can join you there and continue this discussion. I'm not interested.

Moderator

I think you need to read bep's post again.

No where in his post did, bep's post did he say, speaking in tongues is a sin.
What you have done, is to read something in a post, not there.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, between Me and My vineyard [My people, says the Lord].

You know, some of you need to get better at paragraphing if you want the whole debate read. LOL  ;D

Anyways, I'm not sure what all has been said here, but the issue of tongues came up on another forum some time back. I'll post now what I said then. :)

Please, don't jump on me, since these aren't addressed to anyone here, and I'd be glad of any correction. :) This was an argument-specific post. :)

littlepilgrim,

i have read and pretty much agree with what you have said. god bless you and all others on the site.

the bible says to cry loud and spare not....i have not really been allowed to do that here, so my comments are limited.

What are the comments you would like to share?

GKB

The trinity can been shown via scripture as you well know.

Prove to this old penticostal lady's satisfaction that the same can be done with the  phrase 'heavenly language.'

Hello Sister Reba,

He wanted to share some name-calling of other folks on the forum who disagree with him. That was a bad idea that just didn't work out for him because of forum rules, and he came within an inch of being banned after dealing with most of the moderators. So, if he shares the comments he wanted to make, he will be banned.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:11 NASB  "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

SISTER REBA,

i assure you that my intelligence is not limited to name calling and that is not what my comments shared, my comments made reference to some biblical similarities betweeen one group of people and a more modern group. it was for the purpose of expressing a side of things that some may not have been familiar with. i am still interested in sharing some scriptures with you in the name of jesus....i am not going to debate, but i will share.

i do have some scriptures which i have mentioned previously, i am a little afraid of giving what i know to be true for fear of being banned....however i do not think that i will be frequenting this site as regularly as i have been, so i guess you may address concerns to me, for i am happy to share.

i am afraid that when we become laced with one way of thinking, we tend to box god into a tradition that hes not limited to....well god bless you and by by now!

I PRAY FOR A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO FOR ALL OF YOU! GOD BLESS YOU IN THE SPIRIT OF LOVE!

Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ. When a person teaches a doctrine, makes comments about scripture that question anothers Salvation in matters that do not pertain to the teaching of the Gospel, then this person is attempting to put a stumbling block in front of their brothers or sisters path, attempting to make them doubt their Salvation instead of trying to help them increase their faith.

I am not talking just about the teaching of tongues that some people do. This is involved with other topics also such as when the rapture will take place. The problem here is when people move these subjects into the teaching of Salvation, making it a part of it or making it a requirement of Salvation. Then comparing a specific person to the Pharisees because they don't accept those teachings. The Pharisees rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. It had nothing to do with these other teachings.

The outward display of these gifts is not necessarily a proof that a person is saved. It is the inward proof that makes the difference. The Pharisees gave many outward proofs but they forgot to clean the inside of the cup and concentrated specifically on the outward appearance of things only.




Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?



2Co 11:12  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



 
1Jo 3:20  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

GKB

Your responce is just about what i  expected.

Mr. Bepster do not say anything to your intelligence, So i will cry loud and spare not....

You came across very  pious as if you are so much more sipritual then the folks here. These guys here dont  treat me in any foul way yet most know i can speak in tongues at will.

You assume thoughts of others and are incorrect in your assumptions. the post you have left  say to me "GOD only works and uses those i say He can and in the way i say HE can".  Crying loud, folks like you have left a bad name on the penticostals for years. Like a child given a Christmas gift who abuses it wiht so much bragging the giver wishes it had never been given
 Open your spiritual eyes and see the Open yoru ears and hear the crying loud turn and feel the spare not and look at yourself.  This is all said in love......

Brothers and Sisters,

I'll simply say that if we truly belong to JESUS, that should be more than enough to enjoy each other's company. Our differences will be gone when we spend Eternity together with JESUS. In the meantime, fellowship with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ is more than just possible, it's what GOD wants and expects. If someone bars fellowship with another Christian because of a difference, that isn't GOD working.

Philippians 1:27-28 NASB  Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB  And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

*nod* Amen, BEP. We should be grateful for the gifts were are given, but always those gifts should be used to build up others and to bring glory to Christ. The debate over gifts is kind of pointless, because it doesn't matter WHAT gift we are given. God works as He wills, and He gives us each gifts through His Spirit that we can use to serve Him.

SOLI DEO GLORIA! TO GOD ALONE BE THE GLORY!

Amen LittlePilgrim and Brother Tom,

Fellowship with other Christians is an important part of our growing in our Lord and Saviour. As we are taught we cannot all be a hand, a foot, or leg .....  We are all a part of the Body of Christ and each of us are given different gifts according to that which is in His purpose.

 After throwing my little fit  i am a bit embaressed to add my Amen :-[

Brothers and Sisters,

By my clock, it's 6 minutes to midnight. YES, I know that it's already 2006 in many places.

The point is that we have a brand new year to start. I have a very simple hope and prayer for all of you and myself:  That we all grow stronger in JESUS!  Strength in JESUS really speaks of many things that are critical for Christians:  Love, Peace, Charity, time with GOD'S WORD, and everything that REALLY makes a Christian happy in this short life.


My clock now says 1 minute after midnight, so may GOD richly bless you and your families in 2006.

Love in Christ,
Tom

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

WELL ITS A NEW YEAR, AND LETS MOVE ON TO NEW THINGS. sorry that i'm not apart of the "team". i will continue to CRY LOUD AND SPARE NOT. TO GOD BE THE GLORY FOR THE THINGS HE HAS DONE....I WILL NOT CAST ANOTHER PEARL ON THIS SUBJECT...SO NOW AGREE AMONGST YOURSELVES THAT YOU ALL ARE RIGHT AND ENJOY. growth is caused by going past the norm...MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF  YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS! ;)

You chose your words well?   so those who disagree with you are swine not worthy of pearls?

god bless you sister reba...how did i do? am i yet exceptable?
please bare in mind that this disagreement is for this subject and that i do not disagree with everything that come across these sacred boards, however, like it or not i am still a child of god and proberly your brother. so if you plan to be in heaven i'm going, so we may have to spend eternity togther, so let it go.

its not always such a good idea to be on the popular side. i know many have but me in my grave, but just like jesus, i keep on showing up!

if god be for me, than he more than.....well you know :-X

No you aren't exceptable, you are like the rest of us. You are a child of Christ, still learning, as the rest of us are.....

While I don't agree, with the use of tongues. The reason for that, is I have never heard/seen a translator at different services I have gone to. All I hear/see is gibbish, and noise always the same word useed over and over. This is why I don't attend this type of Church, (sorry no Church names). Some where in the back of my mine, the Bible says tongues is not used when a translator is not present.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight ( the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:16 Otherwise, if you bless and render thanks with [your] spirit [a]thoroughly aroused by the Holy Spirit], how can anyone in the position of an outsider or he who is not gifted with [interpreting of unknown] tongues, say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I tell you, stop being perpetually uneasy (anxious and worried) about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink; or about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life greater [in quality] than food, and the body [far above and more excellent] than clothing?

hello and praise the lord!

i was not asking if i was exceptable in gods eyes, i was asking if i was yet exceptable in the forum eyes.

i have seen/heard tongues interpreted...but my faith takes me to these places in the spirit where things like that can happen for me.

i'm not better than anybody....as a matter of fact, the only thing that seperates me from a drunk, a fornicator, a drug abuser, is the fact that gods grace is holding me...thats my belief. so theres the theory that my pride is high. there is more to the kingdom of god than our faith allows us to believe. and often times, it is that which challenges you that teaches you...problem is it is impossible to teach one who knows already. i am not going to debate or fight with people whom i consider sisters and brothers, however, god will not be silenced, and for his sake neither am i. so excuse me if i don't always agree, but what am i to expect... folk didn't always agree with jesus! he still right, folk just don't agree. so i've moved past needing to be accepted by the elect.

tongues are real, the spirit of god is real, and thats regardless of rather or not you've seen it, believe it, heard it, felt it, moved in it, spoke in it, taught in it, touched in it, or what have you....i have understood that god is god rather or not people believe.

i am not the message, just the messenger! okay dears? kay!

with all this that you all are talking, has anybody yet laid hands on the sick, and they've been recovered? have you raised the dead yet? where care the miracles? i'll tell you where they are, and than you can go preach this message to your church. the miracles are somewhere behind your unbelief....start believing god...he said greater works than these shall you do, well have you? if not, you must not be  doing the thing that causes you to do greater works.... where are the miracles pastors, teachers, reachers? where is the power of god? its available, because i've seen everything that i just named, yes even one get up from the dead (and tongues were being spoken at the time, and an interpreter was in the building). but i have believed in god before i seen him....thats why i gave my life....so jump right back off the ban wagon that causes anyone to agree that gods power and gifting is not real and active...the sad thing is the devil believes greater than some of us. how the devil gonna have more faith than us? well i guess its because he seen the lord and we haven't! well i guess that explains that what we've seen theory!

how many of you all know that god is greater than what you've seen or experenced so far...stick with him by faith he just gets better, and better...just like the commercial, he keeps going, and going and going and...well you get it, or do you?

once again, i am not the message, just the messenger!

I see a lot of concentration being placed on miracles, signs from God, gifts from God, "what God can do for me". Should we not be more concerned with the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Should we not put more effort into teaching the wonderful saving grace of God?


Joh 4:48  Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.


1Co 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

How much greater is the faith of he that believes and does not need signs as proof.

Brothers and Sisters,

I want to make a very simple statement. If I have a one-track mind about anything, I hope and pray it's in sharing the Gospel of the Grace of God! If real Christians were to unite in the single and most important thing we could possibly do, it would definitely be sharing the Gospel of the Grace of God with the lost.

When I use the term "real Christian", I'm talking about people who already belong to JESUS, regardless of what differences they might have with each other. I MUST bluntly state that those differences ARE NOT Salvation issues, and they don't SAVE anyone who is lost and dying in their sins.

If anyone wants to talk about the REAL POWER OF GOD already demonstrated and given to mankind, there would be ONE SINGLE AND UNCONTESTED event:  JESUS AND THE CROSS!  This is Salvation, and there is no other issue that comes close in importance. There is one thing about this single and MOST important event that bothers some people: there is absolutely NOTHING here for a man to boast of. If there is anything at all to boast of, the boasting is SOLELY ABOUT JESUS CHRIST, our LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER! Anyone who is TRULY Saved couldn't possibly disagree with the above statement.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

2 Corinthians 12:9  NASB  And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Galatians 6:14 NASB  But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

It's also true that NO TRULY saved person could disagree with the above Scriptures. However, there is still a problem here for some people: there is nothing above for a man to boast of. If there is any boasting at all, it will be in JESUS and the CROSS!!

The REAL AND UNCONTESTED POWER OF GOD that all Christians are commissioned to share with this lost world is JESUS AND THE CROSS! Again, NO TRULY Saved person could possibly disagree with this statement. There is a problem that gets in the way of OBEYING THIS ULTIMATE MISSION. Some people call it the "me, me, me problem", and it really boils down to human pride and vanity.

NOW, look in this thread and tell me where JESUS and THE CROSS is the ultimate issue. Is JESUS and THE CROSS even mentioned in this thread? OR, is the "me, me, me problem" the only issue in this thread? I'll answer this question: the "me, me, me problem" is the only issue in this thread. The things that men boast of fills this thread, and there was no room for JESUS and THE CROSS!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hi, everyone. I have been reading the last couple of days some of the topics. Since I have been transplanted into an A/G Church from another church that didn't believe in speaking in tongues, I thought I would give my account on this subject. While growing up I remember Pentcoastal people being referred to as Holy roller and a few other names. I remember being told that people are taught to speak in tongues. So when I went to the alter and gave my heart to the Lord at the A/G church I was somewhat fearful when I was asked if I wanted to recieve the baptistism of the Holy Ghost. I got up from the alter and almost ran back to my seat. Several years later I recieved the baptistism of the holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongue. Did someone tell me to repeat after them? NO Do I speak the same language of someone else? NO.
I believe there are several problems that need to be addressed.
First, some churchs believe that is ok to tell others to repeat after them and they are now speaking in tongues. I will not judge this, since I didn't know everything about the Bible and God. I for one do not think it is right, but that is my opinion and the way my church teaches.
The gift of speaking in tongues are for today because He is the same yesterday, today and forever. It was used in biblical times and if it was good for then is it good for today.
I believe that speaking in tongues with interpetation is for the edifation of the church. Praying in tongues can be used to edify God and to be use when we do not have the words to expresses what we are trying say. I believe that when we do not how to pray for things we are asking God to do(ex. for my husband to be born again.) the Holy Spirit intercedes for us through our language. Who else would know better then He to reach God when we feel like our prayers are hitting the ceiling and bouncing back to us.
Ok this is long and I have other things I would like to say but let's see where this goes.
Catty

catty, welcome to Christians Unite :D
I'm sure you will enjoy visiting often, you will meet some very wonderful, God fearing Christians here.
The topic of 'tongues' has been around in the forum for quite sometime now, personally I have never posted in any of them, everyone has their own beliefs, I do however agree that God has given the gift of tongues to Christians today.  Paul mentioned in the Bible that he prays in his understanding and he prays in an unknown tongue. The Bible also states that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men but unto God.  1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
 1Co 14:15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
While I do believe that the gift of tongues is available today, not everyone has this gift, this does not mean that they are not saved, nor does it mean that they don't have the Holy Spirit living within them, for the moment a person is born again he becomes a new creature and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them, hence we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, nor in my opinion does it have to be made publicly known if someone has this gift or not, I personally believe that it is for the specific use God has intended it to be. Normally I keep my opinions on this topic to myself, but I do want to mention that when I am so overwhelmed with so many things going on around me and in the world in general, I often run to God not knowing where to begin praying or what to pray about and I find myself talking to God in a language I myself don't understand. This is something I don't do in public as I feel that when the need for me to pray in an unknown language it is for my personal conversation with God. Many people have different opinions and I am not one to judge anyone on this topic, I respect born again Chirstian as a brother or sister in Christ and I love them all equally the same.

Hello catty. Welcome to Christians Unite. There are some wonderful Christians here and I hope that you will continue posting in fellowship with us.

If you have read the posts here as you have said then you already know that I agree with the Bible that speaking in tongues is a gift and that God can and does still use it to His benefit.



No where does the Bible teach this in fact it teaches the opposite.

1Co 14:3  But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4  He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


1Co 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.



1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Many people use the word edify or edification without fully understanding its exact meaning. It means a structure or building. Therefore it is the building up of others in the word of God.

How do we do this? Not through tongues but through teaching and with teaching the understanding of the word of God. By exhortation which is the giving of advice and by comforting one another in the assurance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Amen, Brother BEP, I am in agreement with you, we all need to focus on the real thing and do what we are commisioned to do by Jesus Himself:
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
We need to be focusing on Jesus and not on our own understandings, and we need to honor Him by obeying Him.

the reason that you may see alot of attention focused on "gifts" in these post is because of the posted topic. remember the topic? "TONGUES-A SIGN" SO I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH ALL THAT THE BIBLE HAS SAID IS TRUE. tongues is the topic, thats why i'm addressing that...so lets not twist it with all of our worldly wisdom so that we can get cu points. i preach and teach the bible everyday, and little teaching is geared towards the gift of tongues, but thats the topic here. if we were talking about salvation, we'd be in agreement, but we are talking about tongues...remember?

so after we've finished fooling everybody and finished convincing them that we have the mandatory point, lets go back to the topic as it was posted....after you research the topic...you'll remember why my focus is on tongues. HELLO!

never once did i post on any of my abilities, i never said i raised the dead, i said i've seen it done! REMEMBER? never said i healed the sick, i said i've seen it done! REMEMBER?

so what are we talking about? i'd rather boost in my infirmities that the power of christ may rest on me! his strength is made perfect in weakness...so i confess, i GKB, am a mess...but thank god for the power of christ saving me..giving me grace, providing me mercy....NOT MY STUDY HABITS, NOT MY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, BUT HIS MERCY AND GRACE! you can't earn this or by this...if it were up to our might, or statures, or if it were for sale, none of us could afford it, NONE OF US!

so once again to god be the glory for the things he has done. now god bless you brothers and sisters.

and catty keep seeking...like you are....for you will reap (or continue reaping) in due season if you faint not.

don't worry about who agrees because the road is narrow!

I guess I should have had in my response that when someone is saved they are filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe that there is a difference in being being filled and being baptized in the Holy Spirit. So one can be saved without being baptized in the Holy Spirit, but when you seek a closer relationship with God I believe that is when you are baptized in the Holy Spirit and the evidence of that is speaking tongues. I don't believe that is where we should want to stay. I think that with the end of time coming even quicker that we need to seek other gifts such as discernment of spirits. We should not allow ourselves to become comfortable at any one stage of knowing the Lord that we should seek everything the Lord has for so we can be equipped with his power and knowledge to do the battle we have been called to do.
May God bless us all where ever we are our in walk with God and He put a desire in our hearts to seek a deeper walk with Him.
catty
It's all about you Lord Jesus

CATTY,

i agree, but wait....you've just entered yourself in battle. people are going to try to give you all kinds of scriptures to tell you thats not true....but hold fast to your doctrine and your teahing....just keep at it...don't let anybody convince you that god is not real on the level that you know him. many are not going to understand....because with all our titles and training, we haven't reached this basic learning yet....so be blessed and get ready.

i do encourage you in the lord...and for your sake i may need to continue to follow this closely so that you are not alone in the truth, but may god bless all our sisters and brothers on this site.

once again, i'm just talking about tongues here, because thats what the topic calls for...so i do agree!

Nicely said Catty   :)

catty, what is a/g church? and what type of church were you attending prior to your switch, and what made you switch?

Hi Reba, I'm Maria. I have been reading these posts since they got started, I never posted on the because sometimes it's just not worth the effort posting when the person you are trying to have a decent conversation with is very sarcastic and mean sounding, but I like the way catty posted so I did answer her post. I agree with you she said it very nicely. With humbleness, meekness and tact. I hope I will be reading a lot more of your posts,  :D
your sister in Christ,
Maria

Thank you for your comments. Like I said before on this subject GOd is the same yesterday today and forever, so if that is true then tongues is for today as it was back on that great of pentcostal day. I was just wondering though someone made the comment about tongues not being used in biblical ways. I was wondering in what biblical way is tongues not being used?

GKB,
I am going to an Assembly of God Church(A/G). My grandfather was a Foursquare Gospel Church Pastor, but I don't remember much since I was very young at the time. My dad married my stepmom and we went to a Nazerene Church until I moved out. My mom and dad about 30 miles north of where we lived and began going to the Church that we are in now. Through circumstances my husband and I moved into my mom and dads house which they no longer lived in at the time, but still went to church out here. When my oldest daughter was 3 they began to take her to church and did the same with my youngest. That is when I began going back to church with my mom and dad.
catty  

Hi catty,

There are some churches that use free use of tongues without an interpreter. The Bible specifically says that there must be someone there that can interpret what is said. I have also seen where there will be 10 or more speaking in tongues all at once and the Bible tells us that this will not be done. The Bible also tells us that it is for a sign to the non-believer not to those that already believe yet there are some churches that teach you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues. This is clearly against the teachings of the Bible. Not all will speak in tongues as we are given different gifts according to the grace of God.

AMEN!

You said that better then I did a page or two ago.

I spent most of my life in AofG Daddy was a pastor for 50 + years.

We all speak of denominations, Baptist, Pentecostal, Reform,… there is a bunch of ‘em.... as a bunch of groups. Yet each church within the denomination is unique. Just a each person in a family is unique.  Each church seems to have its own personality. I have been in what I would term “unholy roller” to the quiet reserved and yet they are both AofG. I have been in a Baptist church, which praised the Lord with the raising of hands and much emotion.  

Knowing my family and how much they love the Lord I know they are not of satan because they speak in tongues. Yet  I have witnessed the forcing of tongues on many….. not good.

The first church I ever held membership in was Baptist although they do not speak in tongues( as a denom) I have witnessed the mighty workings of the Holy Spirit. Tis a shame this has been such a dividing point for so many.

Often I have seen the gift to be of more value then the giver…


Dad was the most Christ like man I have ever known.. The more of the Word he soaked up, the more scriptural knowledge he was blessed with, the less ,shall I say ‘supernatural’ he displayed or  as it appeared the less Dad needed the supernatural..  I personally believe the supernatural is often there for those who need a boost or ,sheesh don’t kill me, a crutch.  

I have heard tongues all my life (60years this year :o) (Acts 2) I have yet to see the tongues of fire.  I have rambled long enough.....  

why do we keep fighting the spirit of the lord jesus? o taste and see that the lord is good.

why not simply try to believe god by faith and see where it leads you?

everyone is saying that i am talking with an attitude, i'm not very nice, i should word it better, etc...but when you are passionate about the truth, sometimes it just seems that way.

i have not once boosted on a title, or bragged about myself, but than again as i wright this, i realize its not necassary for me to defend myself, so i'll stop!

i've seen the truth affend and upset people before, so this is common!

I LOVE THE LORD! I LOVE HIM! I LOVE HIS SPIRIT AND ALL THATS ASSOCIATED WITH HIM "I" DARE NOT DENOUNCE, but thats just me. anyone who wants to denounce him or his gifts can....

but i made a choice, and that choice is to believe god. i refuse to lean to my own understanding, because that doesn't work. so if i have to believe god by myself i will.

p.s. i will not be answering anymore insults thrown at me, i will only deal with the issue of helping people who want a clearer understanding get it.

i count the ridicule to be greater than all the riches in egypt!

when you become aroused by faith... it doesn't really matter what the multitudes think!

many of us have given up on seeing the miracles of the gifts of the spirit because we have been believing for X amount of years and still haven't seen the results of our weak faith.

but there was a man who for one hundred and twenty years preached the true message of "its going to rain" and do you know how many joined his church? EIGHT!

So we can keep preaching what sounds ngood and feels good all we want to, but there is a consequence for not doing it gods way......everybody drowned, except the eight, EVERYBODY! so please forgive me if i don't jump on the ban wagons, i do not mind being the less popular person here!

but i'm going to keep doing what i know is right in the sight of the lord....maybe somebody here will become one of the eight of our generation.

peace and blessings sisters and brothers.

catty, thank you for your response....may god continue to bless you! i do not know why i need to say this to you, but if god be for you, he's more than the whole world against you! REST IN IT!

Greeting, them that have the gifts of tongues, them that have different gifts for the body, PRAISE Jesus, we have all been washed in His blood. The Church is a body.  

Thou shalt see greater than these. (John 1:50)
     
his is spoken to a childlike believer, who was ready to accept Jesus as the Son of God, the King of Israel, upon one convincing piece of argument. Those who are willing to see shall see; it is because we shut our eyes that we become so sadly blind.
     
      We have seen much already. Great things and unsearchable has the Lord showed unto us, for which we praise His name; but there are greater truths in His Word, greater depths of experience, greater heights of fellowship, greater works of usefulness, greater discoveries of power, and love, and wisdom. These we are yet to see if we are willing to believe our Lord. The faculty of inventing false doctrine is ruinous, but power to see the truth is a blessing. Heaven shall be opened to us, the way thither shall be made clear to us in the Son of Man, and the angelic commerce which goes on between the upper and the lower kingdoms shall be made more manifest to us. Let us keep our eyes open toward spiritual objects and expect to see more and more. Let us believe that our lives will not drivel down into nothing but that we shall be always on the growing hand, seeing greater and still greater things, till we behold the great God Himself and never again lose the sight of Him.

Spurgeon devotion for today.

I'm going to take a few verses out of context a little here, but not really that far away, so bear with me.
1) 1 Cor. 14:40 - Let all things be done decently and in order.
{This is why, the confusion, because some have forgot this piece of very important guidelines for the many a gifts.}
2) 1 Cor. 13:10 - But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
{ Now the verses before Paul, who was still in the same breath before saying this.}  rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things,  
 { Now I'd say he is talking mainly about Jesus, and the Word became flesh, our Lord Jesus that is, by encouragement. Now keep in mind 13:10 I'll be leading up to that verse.}
 
Charity  {LOVE} never faileth:  {God's love, it's going to be forever.} but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail.  {He that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exploration, and comfort. Now when won't this be necessary for a believer to do unto another believer, remember love never faileth.}
whether there be tongues, they shall cease;  {this seems to be the question, when will they cease, or that they have. Paul was not at Pentecost, but he tells of the many gifts he has, nothing about the tongue of fire over his head, but he spoke in tongues of even angelic flavor. I've heard it explained that they were baptized with fire, which is another subject altogether.}
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.  {Is he saying "a word of knowledge" which is a revelation gift, "supernatural" or just simply "knowledge". How ever you want to read it, I read it as the gift thing, since Paul is talking about gifts. We can assume Paul takes a breath here to bring out the next piece of vital information.}
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. {These have just been explained, now here is where Verse 10,  comes about "When that which is perfect is come", that statement there is talking about the second coming of our Lord Jesus. Then that which is in part will be done away, of course, none of the gifts will be needed for the church body, because He has returned.
In verse 12,  comes all them questions we have, we will know all that has been a puzzle for us, face to face. When Jesus returns, and that is not far off, them are true signs we are seeing everyday, we that believe.
God's people should not fight with one another over doctrines, denominational differences, we are bound together by none of these, but by the shed blood of Jesus. The same Spirit, the Holy Ghost, when the Church is with God, the gifts of the Spirit will no longer be needed. With this fact in mind, why would I fear the gifts of the Spirit, or question that God is in them, if they are all in lines with His Word, then they are from the Spirit of the Lord. I have not a spirit of fear, I have the Spirit of Christ, and I won't put God in a box.
1 Cor. 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
{Covet, that's a pretty strong word to use for us as Christians. It's wrong in the carnal sense, but between you and God, that's a different story. Then "a more excellent way" that's the bases of the statement, do it in love, that's the foundation of the gifts of the Spirit.}
"Jesus functioned only within the framework of the gifts of the Spirit. His ministry on earth was not as God, but as a man, functioning in the gifts of the Spirit. John 14:12, greater works than these, He said. We can expect to do the same works Jesus did if we will follow, line upon line and precept upon precept, everything the Word of God teaches." Lester Sumrall
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to Me of My Father: and no man knoweth Who the Son is, but the Father; and Who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He is still revealing Himself every moment of the day, brothers & sisters need to put the use of the gifts in the function they were given for, for the Church body, in order. That is why, all the rebuke has come to surface, and brings about division.
1 Cor. 12:25 That there be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another.
The word schism is important, it means separation or division, God does not want a schism in the Church.
The enemy does, and its sad what some bad apples do to the whole basket, Lord, may the eyes of their hearts be given all revelation to the truths and uses of the gifts of the Spirit, that we may unite as one in You.  
In Jesus name, I pray,  Amen

May the Lord bless thee, and keep thee
Only, Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Greetings all,

Before I mention some Scriptural matters on this, I want everyone here to know it's not my intention to judge anyone on the speaking of a tongue different than what The Bible describes. I have some Christian friends that do speak a speech that I cannot understand, nor can others undertand. Yet those believers who speak such a tongue are varried in their Biblical understanding as much as other believers that don't manifest it.

Acts 2 is the guide for understanding what was spoken on Pentecost Day by The Holy Spirit through Christ's Apostles. Our personal opinions do not matter if they go against what God's Word says there in Acts 2. DigitGen did a good job Scripturally of describing what the true 'cloven' tongue manifesting is, per Acts 2.

Again, per Acts 2, which is the example for all believing Christians, everyone present there who heard that 'cloven' tongue understood in their own language and dialect of birth. The Holy Spirit even left a specific subject outline within Acts 2 on that word tongue per the Greek (a:glossa, b:dialektos, b:dialektos, a:glossa, which means 'language', 'dialect', 'dialect', 'language'). When that happens in Scripture it means God is sealing the Message in His Word. Those kind of subject outline Holy Spirit markings happen often in Scripture, and that's why we often see repeats of the same phrases within a single chapter, for emphasis.

Another point on this per Scripture, specifically the 1 Corinthians 14 Chapter, the KJV word "unknown" in the phrase "unknown tongue" is not in the Greek manuscrirpts of God's Word the translators used. The KJV translators added the word "unknown". So in verses like 1 Cor.14:2, remove the word "unknown", because it was added by the translators. It's not difficult to go to a Strong's Concordance to check me out on that. The word "tongue" in that 1 Cor.14 Chapter also is Greek 'glossa', meaning a known language of the world. Paul was definitely speaking about known languages of the world in 1 Corinthians 14.

1 Cor 14:10-11
10   There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11   Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
(KJV)

When Paul talks about "voices in the world", he's talking about different languages, not the 'cloven tongue' of Pentecost. Paul was speaking about those with different languages speaking in the Church and causing confusion by not having an interpreter.

But that does not mean there is no 'cloven' tongue, because Acts 2 testifys there is. And further, Acts 2 shows everyone present heard in their own languages of birth when that 'cloven' tongue went forth out of the Apostle's mouths. We know that for sure by verses like this:

Acts 2:11
11   Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
(KJV)

The "wonderful works of God" is what the Apostles were teaching there on Pentecost Day to the multitudes by the cloven tongue. That means a Testimony by God through The Holy Spirit that is to be understood. But there's more there in Acts 2 about the manifesting of that cloven tongue.

Acts 2:16-20
16   But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17   And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18   And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19   And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20   The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
(KJV)

Peter is specifically quoting from Joel 2. How many have really studied Joel 2 & 3 to know what timing that is for? When Peter says, "this is that", that means the cloven tongue on Pentecost is only an 'example' of the prophesied event first given in the Book of Joel. Again, what timing is Joel 2 about?

Joel 2 mentions events like blowing the trumpet in Zion, the appearance of horsemen, entering in windows as a thief, earthquakes and days of darkness, the bridegroom going forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet, the four stages of the locust with God calling them " My great army which I sent among you", all happening before the Day of The LORD.

The "day of The LORD" means Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect servants, mentioned in Rev.20. The sounding of the 7th trumpet, the "last trump", is when that Day of The LORD begins. The locust metaphor there in Joel 2 is about the locust army of Revelation 9. The great signs in the heavens and the earth are tribulation timing signs. The horsemen of course relate to the four horsemen of the Apocalypse per Revelation 6. Those symbols, especially the locust army symbol, relate to the seven signs of the latter days given in Revelation, a time leading up to Christ's second coming to begin the Day of The LORD.

In Mark 13, our Lord Jesus gave those signs also, and they tie directly to the seven seals of Revelation 6.
 
Mark 13:7-11
7   And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

As long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, Christ's return is not yet. But what's the opposite of wars and rumors of wars? Peace, but there is no peace. That's what we're really hearing now, but wars are still going on today. When they shall say, "Peace and safety", then watch out, all wars will have ended in prep for the tribulation (1 Thess.5).

8   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9   But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

Now we're getting close to a link with the Joel 2 prophesy for the end days, concerning those who will give a Testimony for Christ Jesus.

10   And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

One of the Greek meanings for that word "published" is to herald like a public crier. Remember the days past when the town herald got up on a stand to make public proclomations to the town.

11   But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Notice our Lord Jesus forewarns here, that if you are delivered up to those councils and synagogues to give a witness for Him, to not think beforehand what you will say, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives you to say in that hour. There's the link to the cloven tongue purpose in the latter days just before Christ's second coming. And that's the link to the events in Joel 2 Peter quoted on Pentecost Day.

Therefore, for those who do speak an unknown tongue, one that can't be understood, possibly it will manifest like Pentecost Day in our near future through those who are destined to be delivered up to give a Testimony for Christ, by The Holy Spirit speaking through them, and everyone hearing them in their own language of birth, even their own village dialect. That is certainly my hope for those. In the Luke 21 example of those events, Jesus said He would give those a mouth and wisdom that the adversaries willl not be able to gainsay nor resist. That's another clue of what the true cloven tongue of Pentecost is, what it's for, and what major latter day event it is reserved for. Everyone hearing it will definitely understand it in their own language.

There is a pure langauge unto The LORD:

Zeph 3:8-9
8   Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9   For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)

After Christ's second coming, we all will be speaking that "pure language". One only need to recall their Old Testament history in Genesis 10 & 11 about the tower of Babel. All nations spoke one language prior to that Babel event. There's about 7 main root languages that all known languages branched off of. They must have come from the early one language before the tower of Babel. There's the Scriptural link to the cloven tongue of Pentecost of why its true manifesting involves known languages of the world. God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.

In Christ,
dp

PRAISE THE LORD,

db please look at post #22 on this subject, there are some other scriptures that you may be able to help me with, specifically in romans...

Hello GKB,

I noticed you mentioned the Romans 8:26 passage about "groanings" in reply #22. The Greek word there means a 'sigh'. Paul is simply talking about times when we need God's help, and we don't know what to do or what to ask Him for. Instead, our spirit simply groans inside us, which is where The Holy Spirit takes up intercession for us. It is not about an 'outward' groaning, it's about an 'inward' groaning...

Rom 8:26
26   Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(KJV)

The phrase "which cannot be uttered" means unspeakable, so that is not meant as some outward speech. Acts 7:34 is the only other Scripture of that Greek word for 'groaning', and notice what the subject is there, about God telling Moses He had heard Israel's groaning, their affliction while captive in Egypt.

Like I said in my above post, it's not my intention to judge anyone on this matter. I believe the example of Acts 2 about the cloven tongue, and what it was and is to be used for. A closer look into the history of Christ's disciples being sent to peoples of many different languages reveals a major purpose for the cloven tongue, and we may assume from the Acts 2 example they did manifest that cloven tongue later in the same ways as Acts 2, as did others later (Acts 19:6). That would mean someone of one language going to a foreign nation today without the proper language might very well manifest the cloven tongue so the people there could understand. Moreover, the idea of prophesing in The Bible means to reveal or teach. So it's not about confusion, it's about understanding, and that's God's way.

Now if you understand the latter part of my above post, in reference to Joel 2 that Peter made, and, you've noticed many of the latter days signs in the world our Lord Jesus gave us, then you should be coming to a realization of another major manifesting of the true cloven tongue of Acts 2, to the whole world. That's what many seem to be lacking in their understanding today. Whether we speak a tongue today which no one can understand, or a tongue that is understood by people of different languages, the stage is now being set for the cloven tongue to manifest through Christ's witnesses who will be delivered up to councils and synagogues in our near future.

In Christ Jesus,
Dave

I would first like to say I have very much enjoyed the debate on this subject.  One in which I have debated many times in my life and by the Grace of God, been on each side of the debate.  Having been raised SB the gift of tongues was very clearly considered an expired gift.  And all who have posted with that opinion I can very well relate to. Even to the point of having gone head to head with my Pastor with the same scriptures.  Although I know the passion behind your position, I can not now stand in agreement with it.

When I received the gift of tongues I was in my room doing my daily prayer.  (I must say prior to this experience I had only heard the gift of tongues spoken maybe a handful of times in my life) Just me and My Lord, I did not ask for it although I had asked for understanding.  See the church we now belonged to very much exercised this gift, in an orderly manner and was encouraged as a gift of prayer, rarely ever displayed during a church service.  So as I said it was not a big thing in our church, but a big thing in my heart and I would passionately debate it with anyone who would listen for the sake of understanding.  I think more mine than theirs though. 

So here I am, in my room praying in the Spirit when I received the gift of tongues.  Now I would like to say to all those who view this as cultish or satanic, judge not lest you be judged by the same measure.  Our witness, personal experience in what God has done in us, is the 2nd most powerful tool we have been given to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Although I could go scripture by scripture ( which has obviously been done)  I would rather just share my experience. 

So I prayed in tongues in the Spirit for 1 hr that day. Fully and completely engulfed by the love of my Father.  Having experienced an intimacy with Him that day and most days since that is unlike any I had known prior.  See the manifestation of this gift is not for others, although if by the Holy Spirit's knowledge it will give belief to an unbeliever than He will manifest it then. But from my experience it is a love language between me and my Lord.  When I am in His presence and my mouth and mind have said all they know to say and yet I still desire to sit at His feet, then my prayer language will pray what I know not.

For those who are so quick to lay down a Law about something obviously so Spiritual I ask you to pray for understanding.   God is faithful and He will give peace where there is none.

I do not ask you to believe as I because I believe that God gives us faith where we need it in our lives and maybe you carry great faith somewhere else in your life that God has given generously to you. 

I challenge all who stand on the opposite end of this debate to pray this in their lives
[]
As long as we (the body of Christ) allow such small things divide us they (the lost and dieing world) will never know the love of Our Father

Peace to you All
Tiffany

A few things that I would like to add:

1. It is not a requirement for Salvation. Rom 10:9

2. It is not a gift that all will experience. Rom 12: 6 - 13

3. It is not a gift that we should seek. 1 Cor 14:5, 12- 17, 19  2Tim 2:7

4. It should not be an area of contention. Phi 2:2

5. Our primary objective should be in the preaching of the Gospel. Mar 16:15

PR,

     why are the few things you'd like to add always in a direction that leans against the holy spirit by way of the tongues?

    once again real quickly, god is still god rather we believe him or not, and his gifts still exsist, even if they do not exsist for you. don't be so quick to convince people against the spirit of god (it is the spirit that makes intercession)...if you don't know god on this level, maybe this is an area you should not speak on. for those of us blessed enough to know him on this level, it is an offense to have you speak against that fire that moves down on the inside...so don't do it!

    i know some will be mad about this post, and they will find ways to rebuke me by twisting my words, or twisting the words in the bible, but those people should know, i am not moved by how much scripture a man can quote...walk it out...get the revelation of his word...get the understanding of the word and do not manipulate the word to prove false points...i know some of these points are false, because i have spoke and do speak in a real tongue, that is between me and god. the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are none of his. not saying that those who do not believe that the spirit make s intercession is none of his (even though the bible makes it clear in romans 8), but what i am saying is do not post on something you don't know about, and certainly do not post against it.

    p.s. some of us seem a little double minded. one minute it absolutely does not exsist, the next moment it does exsist but is not a requirement, or it exsist in secret. once again, if you do not know him in the power of his might, just say nothing!

i know i'm going to be in the cu principles office, but i'm going to post this anyway!

First of all who are you to say that I am not in the power of the spirit? The power of the spirit is doled out to each of us in different ways. Some to prophesy, some to teach .......

You are quick to see the negative in my posts but did not see the positive. I did not give posts that are against speaking in tongues. The post that I made simply shows that it is not for everyone. That GKB is in fact very Biblical.

Many people spend all their time seeking the gift of speaking in tongues and ignore the other gifts. It is better to understand five words in the church so that all may be edified than a hundred words in an unknown tongue. Too many even make it a requirement of salvation which it is not, this was one of my points above.

If I am given the power to teach should I not teach all things that are given me to teach or should I "say nothing" in the areas that may offend someone.

I am not forbidding to speak in tongues but rather insuring those that do not that they are not necessarily "out of the spirit". If a person speaks in tongues does that mean that they are closer to God than someone that doesn't? NO! absolutely not. People should be content with the gifts that God so graciously gives us for His purpose and to use those gifts for Him not just for ourselves. There were and are many great men in Christ that have never uttered a word in tongues, yet there are those that spend the majority of their time preaching on tongues and ignoring the greater matters of salvation and the use of other gifts that will edify all.

Perhaps you should be the one keeping silent on this subject if you do not understand this??

Hello GKB,

Brother, there is a very simple and sure answer for everyone to determine the truth about tongues. If it isn't exactly according to the Holy Bible, it isn't from God and it isn't of God. The portions of Scripture aren't difficult at all. You can read them for yourself, and if your experience isn't exactly according to Scripture, you have a problem that isn't from God.

There's also a problem with some folks adding doctrine about tongues that does not come from the Holy Bible in any manner or form. In these cases, those would be false doctrines of men and have nothing to do with God at all.

So, it really isn't a matter of opinion at all, rather a matter of Scripture from the Holy Bible. The only portion that is a matter of opinion is whether the tongues are a known and existing language or not. All of the rest is pretty simple facts from the Holy Bible.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 3:20 NASB  'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Before this topic gets out of hand.