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     Founder:     Charles Taze Russell
     Official Name:     Jehovah's Witnesses-this name was not used in Russell's time.  Rutherford named the group in 1931 based on Isaiah 43:10.
     Date Founded:     December 13, 1884
     Presidents:
1. Charles Russell
2. Joseph F. Rutherford
3. Nathan H. Knorr
     Important Books:
1. New World Translation (Bible)
2. Emphatic Diaglott (Greek Testament)
3. Make Sure of All Things (70 Section doctrinal book)
4. Let God Be True (doctrinal book)

Magazines:
1.    "Watchtower"
2.    "Awake"

Headquarters:     Brooklyn, New York (Bethel)
     Organization:     The Witnesses function under a highly organized program.
1. Headquarters (Board of Directors)
2. Branches
3. Districts
4. Circuits
5. Congregations-approximately 200 people that meet in "Kingdom Halls"

     Kingdom Hall Program:
1.     Presiding Minister (congregational servant)-one who is "spiritually" mature in leading and dedicating the people in their work.
2.     Ministerial Servant-assists the minister in these duties:
     a.     Bible study servant-studies in converts homes
     b.     Literature servant
     c.     Magazine servant
     d.     Accounts servant-expenses to run Hall
     e.     Pioneer servant-devote 150 or more hours in their territory.

     Kingdom Hall Meetings:     The J.W.'s either meet in private homes or in the Hall.  The Halls are moderate and small in number.
1.     Congregation Book Study-Early in week for one hour the people study the N.W.T. (New World Translation Bible) and Watchtower Textbook.
2.     Theocratic Ministry School-enroll for life in this course that meets one evening a week--primarily for home- to -home visitation.
3.     Service Meeting-A monthly pamphlet from Bethel discusses methods and thinking for the week.
4.     Public Meeting-Sunday afternoon or evening to study Watchtower.
5.     Watchtower Study-Most important meeting of the week, questions and answers in Watchtower Articles.

     Charles Taze Russell:     Charles Russell was born in Allegheny, Pennsylvania on February 16, 1852.  His parents, Joseph and Anna Eliza, were Presbyterians.  At the age of 15, Charles Russell joined a Congregational Church.  However, due to the doctrines of predestination and eternal hell, Russell at the age of 17 became an agnostic claiming organized religion had destroyed his confidence in God and the scriptures.

     Russell did, however, begin to look into the subject of religion (see Jude 8).  He came across writings by Ellen White and Jonas Wendell (both Seventh Day Adventists) which seemed to offer more than the organized religions, especially appealing were these doctrines-extinction of the soul at death, the annihilation of the wicked, and hell as the grave not eternal punishment.

     Charles' father, Joseph, had a chain of clothing stores that would one day net Charles more than a quarter of a million dollars.  At the age of 18, Russell then began his own "Bible" study in a basement near his father's store.  A group of people met there for five years.  It was during this time that Russell became disappointed with the Adventist's view that Christ would return in the flesh and not invisibly.  In 1876, he met with N.H. Barbour, a leader of dissatisfied Adventists, who likewise did not believe in the physical return of Christ.  These two groups combined and started a magazine "The Herald of the Morning."  This venture later proved embarrassing to the movement as Russell mis-calculated the date of Christ's return.  With the start of this partnership, Russell sold his interest in the clothing business.  Soon after, though, Russell and Barbour parted ways due to a disagreement of theology.

Russell had set down for himself four goals for his future work:
1.     To devote his life to his cause.
2.     To invest all his money into the work.
3.     To never take church collections.
4.     And to depend on voluntary gifts.

With these goals in mind, Russell set out on his own using his magazine "Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence" as the forerunner.  By 1880, seven states had congregations.

     Russell married Maria Frances Ackley in 1879.  For many years she was active in the Watchtower Society as secretary-treasurer and associate editor.  However, in 1913, Mrs. Russell sued for a divorce on the grounds of "his conceit, egotism, domination, and improper conduct in relation to other women."  Upon hearing the evidence, the judge ruled in her favor.

     In 1882, Russell made his first attack on the doctrine of the trinity, and it was this article that drove Russell to believe he was appointed as Jehovah's witness to the world.  Finally on December 13, 1884, Zion's Watchtower Tract Society was granted a legal charter and became a corporation.  This is the official beginning of the Jehovah Witness Movement.  It was at this point that Russell began a seven volume series of doctrinal books called Studies in the Scriptures.  The first volume appeared in 1886, "The Divine Plan of the Ages," and the last one was published in 1917 after his death.

     The headquarters in Allegheny were too small for Russell's growing religion so they built another headquarters to house them for the next 20 years.  Russell continued his writings, traveling, and lecturing while his movement grew.  Finally in 1908, one of Russell's most important converts and next president to be, Joseph Rutherford, the Society's legal counselor, acquired some property in Brooklyn, New York.  (This is still the location of the world headquarters today-Bethel.)

     Russell's health was poor as he began a western speaking tour beginning in Texas.  Upon arriving in California his health was going quickly and Russell decided to return to New York.  He died returning to New York, October 31, 1916, on the train in Pampa, Texas.

     Court Cases Involving Charles Russell:     a.  His divorce:     In 1897, Mrs. Russell left her husband and six years later sued for separation.  The divorce was given in 1906 after sensational testimony.  There was much litigation that was very undesirable for Russell regarding alimony for his wife but in 1909, it was settled.  She was to receive $6,036.  The litigation revealed Russell's activities in the religious field were carried on through several subsidiary societies and that all of the wealth that came to him through these societies was under control of one holding company of which Russell held $990 of the $1,000 capital and two of his followers the other $10.  Thus Russell controlled all the financial power and was accountable to no one.

     b.  Miracle Wheat:     the newspaper, "The Brooklyn Eagle", exposed this fraud.  Russell's 'Watchtower' published a "miracle wheat" for $1.00 per pound that would grow five times as much as any other brand.  The proceeds from the sale would go to the Society.  The Eagle exposed this claim in a cartoon in their paper, and Russell sued for $100,000 in damages.  Government investigators made the find that the wheat not only didn't produce five times as much, but was in some cases for inferior.  The Eagle, of course, won--January 1913.

   

 c.  Russell's Imaginary Sermons:     From the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of February 19,1912, is another report of Russell's hypocrisy.  Russell traveled abroad extensively and sent back sermons he delivered to the States.  The Eagle contended that Russell never delivered these sermons.  For example, in Hawaii he said he delivered a sermon at Honolulu in front of a large audience.  The editor of the "Hawaiian Star" wrote that Russell appeared for a few hours in Hawaii but didn't make his expected public address.  This was typical of many other documented accounts.

     d.  The Greek Scholar:     Reverend J.S. Ross of Hamilton, Ontario after having written a pamphlet denouncing Russell both doctrinally and morally, was sued by Russell for "defamatory libel."  Ross charged that Russell was anti-rational, anti-scientific, anti-Biblical, uneducated, a pseudo-scholar, and ignorant of the languages.  Russell being the plaintiff must prove the charges false, while Ross must prove truth.

Russell claimed all of Ross's claims were false except for the wheat scandal.  Russell had now committed a gross error before the high court and Almighty God.

1.     Russell only attended school seven years.
2.     Russell under oath said he was ordained, but later under pressure of evidence had to say this was a lie.
3.     He was asked if he knew Greek.  He replied, "Yes".  At this point he was asked to read the letters of the Greek alphabet--he couldn't.  He replied, "No" when he was asked again if he knew Greek.  Nor did he know Hebrew, Latin, or any other language.
4.     He never studied philosophy or systematic theology.

As statement after statement was proved false and Russell stood head down in front of the court---proved a liar and a fraud, the judge threw the case out of court.  Russell also had testified that his wife had not divorced him and that he did not pay alimony.  Case in Ontario, Canada, December 9, 1912- February 7, 1913, also March 1913.

Joseph Franklin Rutherford:     "Judge," as his followers knew him, was born November 8, 1869 in Booneville, Missouri.  His parents were Baptists.  His father was a farmer and had very little income.  At the age of 16, Rutherford decided to go to college to study law.  His father made him pay not only for his education but also for a hired hand to take his place at home.  Six years later, two Watchtower representatives approached Rutherford, and by 1906 he had joined Russell's movement.  Although he and Russell were direct opposites in personalities-the Judge was here to stay.

     After Russell's death, Rutherford took over as the Society's president.  He completely reorganized the Brooklyn Headquarters and began to encourage more active member solicitation.  However, very soon there arose trouble in the new leadership.  Rutherford, a cold, hard man who was never to be opposed-this was equivalent of opposing God himself.  The ones who had been loyal to Russell began to have conflicts, and when Rutherford finished Russell's last book in the doctrinal series-this led to a split in the society.  The ones who left formed a "Dawn Bible Students" study and stated all revelations had ceased at Russell's death.  (J.W.'s also believe in Progressive Revelation.)

The last volume in the doctrinal studies brought charges from the Canadian and U.S. governments on insubordination, anti-war statements (World War I was in progress) and failure to serve military duty in the U.S. Services.  On June 20, Rutherford and other Witnesses were sentenced to jail in Atlanta, Georgia for 20 years.  However, the war ended in November 1918, and the jailed Witnesses, after having served nine months, were released by a court order.  Rutherford returned as a martyr-hero and the work was on the move again.  A new magazine "The Golden Age", later to be called "Awake", was the beginning of a massive literature campaign.

In 1931, at a convention in Columbus, Ohio, the Society took the name of Jehovah's Witnesses from Isaiah 43:10.  Due to the split in the work, Rutherford tried to write off Russell's doctrine or rather to disguise it with his own.  On January 8, 1942, Judge Rutherford died.  He was president for 25 years.

Nathan Homer Knorr:     Nathan Knorr was born in 1905 in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.  At the age of 16, Knorr joined the Society, and at 18 became a full-time preacher and worked at Bethel.  In 1932, Knorr was made General Manager of all publishing activities.  In 1940, he was made vice-president of the Pennsylvania Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.  Finally on January 13, 1942, Nathan Knorr was elected as the Society's third (and present) president.

Knorr was not as well known as the two previous presidents although he had demonstrated his ability by beginning a campaign to canvass the neighborhoods as witnesses.  This proved to be a drastic change in the Society's growth and development.

Important prospects carried out by Knorr since his presidency:

1.  Improvement of the Society's training program.
2.  Gilead Watchtower Bible School in South Lansing, New York.
3.  Theological ministry school for the congregations.
4.  A new set of doctrinal books.
5.  Translation of the Bible into modern English- The New World Translation.
6.  Expansion to foreign countries.

(As an afterthought, even though it was a rule at Bethel that no one who lived there could get married and some were thrown out because of breaking this rule, Knorr, living there while president, got married.)

Ideas for Witnessing:

1.     Be careful about use of the history of the cult's leaders.
2.     Let them know if they reject the Gospel, they are on troubled ground.
3.     Always use this with the J.W.'s.  If we talk about anything in the Bible, we will disagree, so let's talk about important issues and from where.
4.     Say, we are both students of the Bible so let's use only the Bible.
5.     Do not allow them to jump around.  Get on John 6:47 etc., and don't move till it is completely explained.
6.     Make sure of the meaning of all the terms.
7.     Don't persecute them--this is what they are looking for.  Be courteous and agree as much as possible.  (Titus 3:9; II Timothy 2:24-26)
8.     Don't leave them comfortable.
9.     When a witness approaches you, he is programmed to make his presentation--let him.  Do not interrupt of disagree-just let him finish.  When he is done, you will be expected to reply.  At this point, give your testimony in a loving way, stressing grace versus works.
10.     Always read the context of their passages.
11.     They usually travel in pairs--one has experience, one doesn't.  Try to reach the one with less experience (He will be the one who doesn't talk.)
12.     Ask these questions to determine the amount of programming they have had:
     a.     How long have you been a witness?
          · A short time can be both good and bad--good in that they don't know much, and bad in that it brings much zeal.
          · A long time---the person has experienced much disillusionment.
     b.     How many hours do you go door-to-door each month?
          · A good witness puts in 100 hours.
     c.     May I have your address?
          · They do not like to do this, but explain that you want to visit them also.
13.     Do not accept literature.
14.     When talking always be well prepared--don't ramble.
15.     Get books on Jehovah Witness doctrine.
     · William Schnell-Good Source.

I don't fully understand these extremely long posts, but I have two questions:  1) Are you a JW? and if you are; 2) Why don't you believe in the Trinity?

Blessings -

Sister, this post shows the cult that the JW's are and has suggestions on how to properly witness to the JW's to attempt to steer them in the right direction, so no DigitGen would not be a JW.

Thanks for clearing that up PR!  But I'd still like to know why JW's don't believe in the trinity?  It is SO CLEARLY stated in the bible!

Blessings -

It is because that is what they are taught. They listen to mans teachings not the teachings of the Bible.

OK . . . . . Now, I am taught from the bible, what are JW's taught from?  Sorry to be so hard-headed about this, but I just don't understand their thinking - it's like they're brain washed.   ???

Blessings -

They use a very warped version of the Bible called the New World Translation (NWT). This version is the most despicable version of all, changing the very deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to the point that the Holy Spirit is not considered to be alive. They also get much of their doctrine and interpretations of the Bible from a magazine known as the Watchtower.

In fact the Watchtower even says if you read the Bible alone, you'll become a Trinitarian.

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." The Watchtower, August 15, 1981.

And what are the apostate doctrines of 100 years ago?  Why, the Trinity of course.

My husband used to be a practicing JW... although he's a nonbeliever now, he still tries to compare my bible to theirs.  He quotes scripture (so does Satan!) and says their bible is the same as mine, that I'm just ignorant to the truth!  He has cursed me, referring to me as a "f**king christian" and that all christians are "liars, cheats and thieves" - there is no way I can compete with the filth that comes out of his mouth except to praise the Lord audibly, rebuke Satan audibly and promptly leave the room!  :'(

Is my husband a typical JW?

Blessings -

my husband tells me that my bible is "wrong" because we rewrote it to exclude the name 'Jehovah'.  He said we replaced 'Jehovah' with 'God' or 'Lord' to make it fit our beliefs!  O man, do I need help!  My husband has been brainwashed by the WatchTower ......

Blessings -

TalkerCat, here you go, on information on J.W.

Jehovah Witnesses (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=6468;start=msg91127#msg91127)

 Jehovah's Witnesses
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

It was founded by Charles T. Russell in 1852, though the first formal organization was in Pittsburgh in 1872.

- 3 million members worldwide, and 926,614 in the USA, with 9,985 Kingdom or Assembly Halls (in 1994).

- Address: 117 Adams Street, Brooklyn, NY 11202 (called "Bethel").

- Before, they have been called "Millennial Downists", "International Bible Students", and "Russsellites", after their first leader.

... Their official name, is not "Jehovah's Witnesses", but an Incorporated Society, the "Wathtower Bible and Tract Society" ... in this Society, the leaders are elected by the number of "stocks" they have; the "President of the Society" is the one who has more stocks... the members do not vote, they do not count, even though they are the ones who bring the money, selling Bibles, Books, the Watchtower, Tracts... the actual President is Milton G. Henschel, since 1993.

Very active members:

The Witnesses are very active, selling 100,000 books and Bibles, and 800,000 copies of its two magazines, daily!... from home to home...

False Prophecies:

The Witnesses are the children of the Adventists, and as the Adventists, they have officially announced the Second Coming of Christ and the Armageddon for 6 dates: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, and 1975... and never came!...

... The prophet whose prophecies are not fulfilled is a "false prophet"... on everything!.

... But the Society, and the money, keeps going on, because every time there was an "strange explanation", swallowed by some members: After the 1914 failure, the explanation was that Christ did not come to earth, but "became king in heaven", and cast out Satan, with the consequent World War I... After the 1975 failure, there was another explanation ready: The witnesses were told that Adam's creation was in 4026 B.C., and 6,000 years later would be the Second Coming of Christ, in 1975; when the date passed, many members left the Society, but others followed Franz's explanation that the 6,000-year chronology was set forward not since Adam, but since Eve's creation, and the leaders do not know the interval between the creation of Adam and Eve!...

... Henschel, the actual President, has not set a fixed date, only that it will be in the early 2,000s.

"Little Popes"... "Blood Transfusions":

The Witnesses reject the "successor of Peter" of Matt.16:19, the Catholic Pope... but they have their "little Popes", not the successor of Peter, they are self- proclaimed, but much more demanding that the real Pope:

... For example, Russell permitted the "Blood Transfusions", and said "only he with the mentality of a pharisee can prohibit them"... so, at that time all the Witnesses read in the Bible that the Blood Transfusions were a good thing to do...

... But then came their second "little Pope", Rutherford, and "prohibit the Blood Transfusions"... and since then, every Witness reads in the Bible that the Blood Transfusions are prohibited... the 3 million of them!... and if anyone dears to say that the Blood Transfusions are permitted, he will be "disfellowshiped", cast out of the Society, and the rest of the members will consider him as dead, they are forbidden even to speak with him... and the "excommunicated apostate" is told he will not rise from the grave on Judgment Day...

... How come at least 10 Witnesses don't read in the Bible that the Transfusions are permitted, like other 2,100 million Christians do?... you know the reason: Because the actual "little Pope" says so... if another Russell would come, all of them will read in the Bible that Transfusions are good!

... One of the big problems about the Transfusions is that Jesus repeats 4 times "you have to drink my blood", in Jn.6:53-56... but they dismiss it as a "symbol", as told by their "little Popes".

- Some members have been "disfellowshiped" for reading books written by ex-members, or eating with a suspected dissenter... and if a Witness says that "Jesus Christ is God", he will be the worst apostate!...

The "144,000"... the "Brainwash":

The key word for the Society is the "Second Coming of Christ", with the war of Armageddon, won by Jesus Christ, and the beginning of the "Millennium" of Rev.20.

- The Witnesses are told to work hard "now", because from that Day, the 144,000 "anointed ones" since 1914 will live for ever as kings and priests in heaven, as told in Rev.7 and 20; and the "Great Multitude" of Rev.7, will rise from their graves to live for ever on earth like in a paradise, ruling earth under the tutelage of the 144,000 during the "Millennium", ... but only the good Witnesses!... the rest of the wicked people will be annihilated in the Millennium... and the "apostate Witnesses" will not raise from the grave on Judgment Day, at the Second Coming of Christ.

- These ideas, of "raising from the graves" to "rule earth", "like a paradise"... are the basis for the brainwash of the members with biblical after long biblical lectures... and their leaders become like gods for them... there is no other world for a Witness...

... And there are many good honest Witnesses... but brainwashed... no biblical reason makes sense for them, only what they are told in the Kingdom Hall... I pray Jesus to give light to any honest Witness who reads these lines, and I order Satan to get out of his heart, in the glorious name of Jesus, because only Satan can praise Jesus by saying that "Jesus is not God". Thank you, my Lord and my God Jesus Christ... proclaimed just like that in the Bible, in the Gospel of St. John 20:28.

Jesus Christ "is not God"!:

The Jehovah's Witnesses discard most orthodox doctrines of the Bible, conflicting with those of historic Christianity:

- The Holy Trinity is seen as a demonic doctrine, Jesus christ is stripped of his deity, is not God!, the Holy Spirit is robbed of his personality... they deny the physical resurrection of Christ, and there is not eternal Hell... their doctrines on the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, on human government, and on the existence of the soul are not biblical...

- The worst of them all is to say that "Jesus is not God": But their Bible says emphatically the "Jesus is God", on John 20:28, proclaiming Jesus "my Lord and my God"... "Lord"... "God"... the Bible says Jesus is God!... directly... just like that!.

... John 1:1-3, says it also directly; however, in their Bible, Knorr added an "a"... "is a god", and he put not "God", but "god"... but verse 3 says that "all things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being".

- Colossians 1:16-17, also proclaims that "all things" were made by Christ and for Christ... but again, Knorr adds "(other)" several times between "all things", trying to water down the creation of all things by Jesus Christ, material and spiritual... but in Jn.1:3 says it so clearly!... and here Knorr forgot to put the word "(other)" in between...

The Society is the worst vomit of Satan...

... only Satan can may you praise Jesus Christ, by saying the "Jesus Christ is not God"... only Satan can make you living only expecting the Second Coming of Christ, with his great victory of Armageddon, and proclaiming that "Jesus Christ is not God".

They "changed" the "Bible":

Knorr, the third president of the Society, published the Bible of the Society, "The New World Translation"... changing and adding words in many verses... and the Bible says, "if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him every plague mentioned in the book" (Rev.22:18).

- He changed or added words to verses relating to the "deity of Christ", the "adoration of Christ", the "immortality of the soul", the "eternal Hell"... (Jn.1:1, Colos.1:14-16, 2:9-10, Fil.2:5, Tit.2:13, Heb.1:6, 8, 2Pet.1:1, Matt.28:17, Luc.24:52, 23:43, Matt.25:56)

The Life of a Witness:

It is a strange one: Do not observe holidays or birthdays. Do not vote, salute the flag, work in the military, play chess... no Sabbath is observed, they meet on Sundays to study their Bible... they work haad, "door to door"... making money for the Society.

Romans 4:1-5 Have not been changed and they clearly demonstrates salvation secondly
Roman 8:23For the wages* of sin is death; but the gift** of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
*Op-so'-nee-on:rations or pay for a soldier
**Charidzomia:to grant a favor; to deliver or forgive freely

If you ask him if Christ was the saviour he should say yes, and when he does...
Isaiah 43:10-11; Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I  am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.  11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
The amusing thing about his is first verse 10 is where the JWs get their name and vs 11 demonstates both the need for the Trinity to be True, as well as the deity of Christ
The verses below also demonstrate this fact and are worthwile to your study

No Savior
Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 45:21; Isaiah 49:26; Isaiah 60:16 Hosea 13:4; Titus 2:10; IITimothy 1:10; Jude 1:25; John 4:42
Isaiah 45:8 Acts 4:12 John 3:36 I&II Cor 4:4

My Dears, DW and DigitGen:

Thank you both so much for helping clear up this mystery of the JW's for me .... there is no doubt in my mind that they are indead a cult!  My husband was brainwashed, then  disfellowshipped simply for speaking to another disfellowed member.  Now he has no faith at all.  He still believes as the JWs do, but hates religion for "kicking him out" . .  I can see this clearly now, and it breaks my heart for him.   :'(

My prayer for Bill is that the Lord softens his heart, opens his mind and restores his faith.  In the meantime, I will remain a loving, gracious wife and stay by his side.

Blessings -

Jehovah's Witnesses have never tried to sell me books or magazines. They always give them to me when they come to the door. Occasionally I invite them in and open the Bible to them. They will continue to talk of articles in their magazines usually, sometimes getting to the Bible if I persist.

I find them very good people, somewhat misled, looking for a better life on the other side of death. They are difficult to reach with the gospel of Christ.

Most Christians do not have the work ethic they have about spreading what they think is truth.

ollie

Hello Ollie,

It's great to see you on the forum.

I'm positive that some of the indoctrination of new Jehovah's Witnesses DOES amount to brain-washing. The work (WORKS) ethic is part of this brain-washing. The thought that one must work very hard for their Salvation is almost natural. For whatever reason, the REALITY of God's Grace, God's Love, and God's GIFT as described in Ephesians 2:8-10 is harder to accept and believe.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

It is very sad that many people believe that Salvation is by their own work instead of the finished work on the Cross by JESUS CHRIST. Faith Alone in Christ Alone just seems to be too simple for Salvation, so many look within themselves and are easily convinced that Salvation can only be obtained by hard work and other attributes of themselves.

I wish there was a simple way to share the truth of JESUS and the Cross with a Jehovah's Witness. I've tried very hard many times, and I'm not aware of a single success. They don't understand that their teachings about JESUS are blasphemy and false. In fact, they don't have a clue that anything they've been taught is wrong and false.

I have no doubt at all that cults and false religions are the work of the devil. I was just thinking that cults and false religions are really more welcome these days than JESUS and the CROSS. Islam would be the biggest and worst example around the world and even in countries with a background in Christianity. The only thing that I know we can do is work harder and pray. The difference will be that we know our works don't save us. Our good works are simply from hearts of appreciation for what JESUS CHRIST did for us on the Cross.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 4:36-38 NASB  "Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. "For in this case the saying is true, 'One sows and another reaps.' "I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor."

As usual brother BEP, your post is eloquent and thoughtful!  I would sit in your congregation any day! !  You have the gift of teaching and ministry. . . . God bless you Tom! You rock! Rock on Tom, Tom Tominator! Woof! woof! woof! woof! woof! (that's my best Arsenio Hall empression  :) )    :-*

Blessings -

If I didn't know better, I would think Arsenio Hall was a puppy ;D

Who let the dogs out!? Who? Who? Who? Who!? Who?!

Hi Tom,

My statement was not in reference to working to earn salvation, but just that the Jehovah's Witnesses work very hard to spread what they believe to be God's truth even though what prods them on may be to earn salvation points with God.


 Many Christians do not seem to have that hard work ethic about proclaiming the word. It should be there not because of earning salvation, but out of love for one another and all men. We are loving when we share God's gift given through His love for the world, to the world.

ollie  

I think I understand what you're saying Ollie.  I think you're saying that christians are commanded to spread the word - we are His disciples and He told us to go out and tell everyone the good news of Jesus Christ ...  right? ??? and even though we are saved by grace, not by works, we can and should "work" to spread the word ... ?

I hope I got that right.

Blessings -

Yes Terri, you got it right. ;D

Amen Brothers and Sisters!

YES, Ollie, I understood exactly what you meant.

As Christians, there are many things that can and will make our joy in JESUS more full. Every Christian who has ever yielded to the Will of God knows something about this joy. GOD did put it in the Holy Bible in detail, so it isn't a secret. It feels good and causes joy when we do the LORD'S work. It might not even be big things that God leads us to do, but yielding still results in joy that nothing in this world compares to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 6:2-4 NASB  "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.  "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Yes that is right.

ollie

Agreed Ollie   :)

They like to be referred to as jehovah's witnesses.
I like the fact that they do not celebrate holidays or birthdays.
work is prayer.

piusx, hello and welcome to Christian Unite forums.

I disagree, prayer is not work. Prayer is a joyful pleasure for me.

JW's, JEHOVAH WITNESSES or jehovah's witnesses, it is all the same ..... they are still a cult as they do not accept Jesus Christ.

Prayer is not work. It is full enjoyment to converse with our Lord.

and methinks you are pretty sharp.  ;)  ;D

As a tack, brother! As a tack!  :P

 ;D ;D

i did not say prayer is work...i said work is prayer. Big difference. I am not jw I am catholic. piusx as in pope pius x.
we really need to make him a saint...don't you think?

i think we should let the lord jesus make the saints...don't you?

Pius, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but prayer is not work.
prayer is thw wonderful privelge of communicating with our heavenly Father. This is how I like to state it "Prayer Works"

You might be right Terri.

Pius, for your information, the Bible calls all those who have received the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior 'saints'. We humans do not have the right or the ability to make anyone a saint. Only by becoming born again and receiving Jesus in your heart can you become a saint. If you read in your Bible almost all the epistles at the begining were start to ..... and to all the saints at ..... these people were alive, not dead they were not made saints by men. They were saints by accepting Jesus and becoming righteous, you cannot become a saint by doing good deeds and living an almost perfect life. the only way is by accepting Jesus.

Piusx, I like to back up my statements with scriptures so I am posting again with several Scriptures .

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

2Co 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Php 1:1 ¶ Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are many more Scriptures, but by now I think you may get the message.
Saints are not made by people, and saints can be living, here on earth as they are even today.

I would agree with you if you had said the works of prayer and not work is prayer.

"Work is prayer" or "prayer is work" means the same thing. To say the "works of prayer" simply means that prayer does work, it is effective, and those workings of prayer are God's work not our own.

I realise who piusx was. Your statement though on prayer sounds more in line with that of the jw and no I don't think that we should make anyone a saint, that is not our place or of our doing. I agree with airIam2worship's assessement of that for that is what the Bible tells us.

Simply put, piousx, the bottom line is PRAYER WORKS, not prayer is work, or work is prayer. the only time I associate the word work with the word prayer is when I say PRAYER WORKS.  period.. like I said before prayer is a God given privelege to His children, whereby we can communicate with our living Heavenly Father.

Amen Sister.

Nope, me think piusx is Catholic.

Only the Lord can makes saints, not man.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Psalm 85:8 I will listen [with expectancy] to what God the Lord will say, for He will speak peace to His people, to His saints (those who are in right standing with Him)--but let them not turn again to [self-confident] folly.

Romans 16:2 That you may receive her in the Lord [with a Christian welcome], as saints (God's people) ought to receive one another. And help her in whatever matter she may require assistance from you, for she has been a helper of many including myself [shielding us from suffering].

1 Thessalonians 3:13 So that He may strengthen and confirm and establish your hearts faultlessly pure and unblamable in holiness in the sight of our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) with all His saints (the holy and glorified people of God)! Amen, (so be it)!

Now piusx, my question to you is............... Where in the Bible does it say, man can make Saints?

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Leviticus 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat of it, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it on the altar upon the offerings made by fire to the Lord; and the priest shall make atonement for the sin which the man has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Maybe we should be specific, coz' i believe catholic means Christian Chruch (well that what my dictionary tells me).  Maybe he is a Roman Catholic.  They really believe works saves but as we Christians believe that only through Christ you will be saved.

 ;D allow me to clarify

as to the jehovah's witnesses yes the are a cult. but there are lots of cults running around. you have the baptist and the episcopals and the methodist. oh the list is endless. all i am saying is the jehovahs witness's can be admired for their work ethic. Now when I say work is prayer all I am saying is like the shakers. Your work should be perfect without flaws because trees should be judged by their fruits.

As for saints...The holy father makes saints all the time, well not this one yet but give him time.

Only God, can make Saints, not man. One of the reasons, I disagree with the Catholic faith. The Pope, makes saints which is Gods work, not mans. Didn't you read any of the verses above?

Of course I read all those verses but I think we are getting hung up on semantics here. First of all the pope is Christ vicar on earth. Yes we are all saints with a little s but I am talking about Saint's with a big S and we all know that only the Pope can make one of those. And I might add that to suggest that the Holy Father would make a Saint without God telling him to is sacriledge...and probably blasphemy too. 

piusx, I can see you and I are going to agree, to disagree.

To me it is blasphemy, for any man to name a Saint. That is the work, of the Lord, and only the Lord. Most on this forum will also feel this way.

I agree that this is what we will have to do. It saddens me that people see the the Holy Father as outside the plan and work of God. But you are probably right about the mindset of the board

I agree to this statement.



Perhaps that is because of the mindset of Jesus Christ himself:

Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Jesus was chastising the Jews for doing this.

And most of us here follow Jesus not a man.

Pastor Rogers

with all due respect Jesus was talking about actual fathers.

I think that you need to read the rest of that chapter starting with verse 1 to understand what Jesus was saying there.

My point is Pastor and again I say this with all humility...but do you honestly believe that the Holy Father would allow us to call him "Holy Father" if he thought it was inappropriate for us to do do? I think he has read the bible a time or two too.

There are many that read the Bible and still do what they should not do. If you read the portions of scripture that I pointed you to you would realise that no man should elevate themselves above others in that manner. For this reason Jesus told us not to call any man here on earth rabbi, master, father .....

By calling themselves Father or allowing others to call them such, that is what they are doing.

Pastor, please do not think me ungratefull. I am very gratefull that you are willing to share with me. Believe me when I tell you that these are not the kind of conversations that you can have with a preist. Try quoting the bible to a priest and see what that will get you. :D :D :D. But to me this is such a small thing like eating shellfish.

the real issue is apostolic succession. If Jesus appointed Peter as the first pope. Then that pope appointed the cardinals who named the next pope and that next pope said priest should not marry then is it not the will of God that preist should not marry because God could of always have  had the cardinals choose another Pope?

Apostolic succesion .....  Peter was not the only Apostle. There were 11 others to start out with. Their were many others, such as Paul, to soon follow. Not all of those churches were of the catholic faith. Now we could argue till we were both blue in the face over which churches are and which ones are not of the Apostolic succession and neither of us would get anywhere.

Let me give you another group of verses that may help to explain some more of what I mean.

Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9  Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
 
Many churches, catholic and protestant alike set up their own doctrines. Many of these doctrines are not the teachings of Jesus. These are the teachings (doctrines) of men that these verses are talking about.

i.e. one church says that you must do good works in order to be saved. Yet we are told that we are saved by faith not of works.

Yes there were many apostles...but Jesus only said to one of them...Upon this rock I build my Church. Peter is latin for Rock. it was a pun. Jesus was saying Peter I build my church on you. And he did. St Peters Basilica is built over his tomb. these are facts and it is all in the bible. Jesus never said anything about churches. There is only one church and it is headed by the succesor of St Peter.

Wrong again. There is only one church and it is headed by Jesus Christ not a man.

Now I have been very tolerant here so far because you have been asking questions. Now you are teaching and your teachings are against those of the Bible. You are teachings mans doctrines and not the doctrines of Jesus.

forgive me Pastor..I mispoke. Of course Jesus is the head of the church. what I meant to say is that here on earth that the representitive of Christ is the succesor of Peter.

Again I am just trying to understand. It sounds like what you are saying is the Pope is a man like any other man.
If this is what you are saying then you have to explain what Jesus meant by Upon this Rock I build my Church. Either Jesus gave Authority over the Church to Peter or he did not? I must add that I am not preaching...I don't have that authority :D

The representative of Jesus Christ here on earth were all the Apostles. That is why He told them to preach the gospel to all on earth.

To answer your question:

Joh 21:16  He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17  He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

As you see Jesus told Peter to Feed His Sheep, not Peters sheep but Jesus' sheep. All too often pastors/priests take the authority away from Jesus thinking that they are in authority here on earth. Jesus did not relinquish His position as the head of the church, here on earth or in heaven he is still the head of the church not a man.

PR I can't believe you forgot about..... Ephesians 5:23

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body.

Didn't forget it, brother. I already gave that to him in another thread.

Pastor

as in all things you are correct. That doesn't mean I understand it any better. and it doesn't really answer my question. no one is suggesting that we worship the pope. The question is does the Pope have a legitimate biblical authority. When Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father did he leave Peter in charge? If he did not then what did Jesus mean when he said upon this rock I build my church. I cannot have been the first person to ask this question in the history of the world. no disrespect intended

The pope should be a teacher, no he doesn't have authority of the Bible. The authority of the Bible belong to one person, Jesus, the Lord.

The second part of your question Pastor Roger, has answered already.

I have to disagree with you piois, the pope is not Christ's vicar here on earth. Christ did not leave one man in charge of His work here on earth. Christ left the church His Body to do the work that he taught them to do. There is no such thing in the Bible as a saint with a little s or a saint with a capital letter S. I think maybe you should read the Bible for your own self, instead of sitting in a pew and having someone else read to you what they want you to hear. The pope cannot, I repeat cannot make a saint and God would not tell him to do so anyway.

These words were being spoken to leaders of a church.


1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


No man is to be placed in such a manner. No man is an authority over the Bible. The Bible is the authority over all men.

Jesus is the Rock and again if you read your own Bible instead of letting another man (a human) just like you that needs salvation through the blood of Jesus just like you, read it for you , then you might understand. Christ is the Rock , He is the cornerstone, He was telling peter that upon this Rock meaning Christ Himself he would build His Church. Jesus NEVER appointed Peter as the first pope, the catholic church did. Jesus is the one who went to Calvary and died on the cross for us, not peter and not any pope. Jesus is alive and has a Body of believers here on earth He does not need a pope.

Amen sister,

Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


And what is this rock that the church will be built upon?

Mat 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:20  Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

 :-[ from one who obviously is woefully ignorent :'( aren't you using the words of Paul to negate the words of Jesus.
at least that is what it looks like to a stupid person like myself. Aren't you the least bit concerned about my immortal soul. I am not here to win brownie points. I am trying to find the Truth. If I am wrong I go to hell.

Where I am at in my spiritual journey is here. What did Jesus Mean when He said Upon This Rock I build My church?
The entire notion of Papal Authority rest on this one phrase. I and millions of other catholics are going to be condemned to eternal hellfire and damnation because you cannot explain what Jesus really meant when he said that.

gee thanks :'(

Read the prior posts. Your question on this has been answered several times. And no we are not using the words of Paul to negate the words of Jesus but rather to reiterate the same words/meanings.

Pious do not try to blame us because you and many like you never searched the Scriptures for themselves. If you search the Scriptures you will find that the Bible says that "God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, and whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlating life" that is simple enough to understand. God is not making it difficult for you to understand that the way of salvation and the way to avoid hellfire for eternity is through accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. He is not telling you to listen to what any pope or other person has to say He is telling you the only way to gain salvation it is that simple. Everything you need to know is in the Bible you are letting yourself get caught up in the doctrines of men. And I hate to be the one to tell you this but the Roman Catholic has a lot of doctrines that are not Biblical. I f you would only search the Scriptures for yourself you would be able to see. we are not trying to confuse you, but on the other hand we are not going to let you keep thinking that what is wrong is right we are only tryong to teach you and we are doing it based on what the Bible says not on what a doctrine says. The Word of God is the Only Word we use.

Yes we are concerned about your immortal soul. The first step, is up to you though. Yes it is hard to learn anew, but it can be done. If I can do it, so can you.

Pious, please let me ask you a question? Have you ever read the Bible for yourself? Have you really searched the Scriptures?. Because it seems to me that you think that the Pope is the one who ultimately holds your eternal life in his hand you are so caught up on Peter, that you are absolutely leaving Jesus out. Peter was just a man just like you and any other man, he was born with sin like all the rest of us, he needed salvation and only Jesus could do that. All throughout the Bible you read about Jesus, today we continue to profess that Jesus is the Christ, He is our Savior. There is no other name under heaven

All you have to do is confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins and He rose again and is sitting at the right hand of God, and ask Him to forgive you of all you sins, repent of your sins and ask Him to come into you heart and be your Lord and Savior.

with all due respect Pastor I am not buying into your interpretation. :'( this is because I am stupid and get hung up on what the bible actually says. I have read your previous post and to me they sound evasive. I am in the debate forum arn't I?

Jesus oppointed Peter head of the Church on earth and then Peter acknowledged the divinity of Jesus and Then Jesus said lets keep that hush hush for now.

Thou art Peter(rock) Upon this rock I will build my church. We get lots of words from Peter. Petroleum, Petreglyph saltpeter. Believe me when I tell you Peter is the Greek word rock.

Piusx, you will find we are willing to help you, in your footsteps to Christ. But again, you must make that first step on your own. We can't help you on that, I guarantee your life will change, for the better. Sister Maria, has told you already how, to come to Christ. My own is a little different but the meaning is the same.

Lord Jesus, I am a sinner not worthy of your Love. Lord Jesus, I believe that you died on the cross for me and I ask you to come into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. Lord Jesus, I ask forgiveness for my sins and ask to follow you as the Lord of my life. In the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ, I pray.
Amen.

This is the debate section but Jesus Christ being the rock and the foundation of the church is not a debateable subject. The Bible is quite clear on this.

The following verses shows us that Jesus Christ is the rock, the foundation that the church is built on, not Peter.

Psa 62:5  My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.
Psa 62:6  He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
Psa 62:7  In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Act 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Is your salvation built upon a church or a man or is it built upon Jesus Christ?

Paul gave a warning to people that were doing as you are doing.

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Which is what the catholic church is doing by saying I am of Peter.

Pious, let do this,  let's leave Peter out of the picture for now. Ok??

Now. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son og God?

is you answered yes to the first question I asked, now ask yourself this question.

Do you believe that Jesus died for you sins?

Do you believe that the only one who could wash all your sins away is the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ?

I am impressed with the background study you have done on the JW's. I would like to find out where this information was obtained.  I have several friends that are Jehovah Witnesses and I have discussed at length the scripture to them. although the research you have done here is astonishing. Please let me know how I may obtain a copy of this.

Thank You In Jesus Name

Hello piusx,

If you will check the derivation more closely, you will find "Peter" to mean small stone, not rock. It would also be helpful for you to read this area of Scripture again. Within a few Verses, you will find JESUS telling Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan". JESUS CHRIST is the only foundation for the One True Church, and the One True Church is not a Church made with human hands. The One True Church is THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Peter was just a man and that's all he ever was. Placing your faith and trust in Peter or any other man gets you absolutely NOTHING. The Law of Faith in JESUS CHRIST is the only thing that will set you free from the curse of sin and death.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:3-4 NASB  For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Greetings,
 
 Just a few views I believe of Peter:

                                                 Point 1
Peter was just a man, we all can relate to him, we have all probably had a season as he did. Some say he backslid when he denied Him, in all we find that Peter did in the  Bible, there were times he was  making mistakes. Which we all can relate too!
Your notice in these next passages here that Jesus told them to go and tell His disciples that He had risen, you'll notice He pointed out Peter.
   
Lam 3:22-23 Lam 3:22  It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23  They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
 
Could you image how Peter must have been feeling, it is written in legend that Peter broke into tears everytime he heard a rooster crow. The Lord knew how His friend was feeling,  that's why he pointed him out.

Mar 16:6  And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:7  But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
                                                   Point 2
Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Peter being the rock, that started on the day of Pentecost, I believe.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42  And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

This was the foundation of when the Church was born, James headed the Church in Jerusalem.
The Word does not say anyone was a "Pope".  The same is what has been said about this issue, but this is what I believe happened and why he was called the rock, the first stone laid was at the day of Pentecost.
Peter preached and 3000 were saved and baptized, the Church began. Jesus is the foundation of the one true Church, the rest of us are the Church body, no matter their office.

Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

Mat 16:15  He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


This portion of scripture has been an area of great contention. It has led to many misconceptions that has led people away from following Jesus Christ and into following men. This misconception is in the meaning of the Greek word Petros. Many people, even theologians have interpreted it to mean Rock. Thereby in their eyes they believe that Jesus is calling Peter the Rock. If we look at this in closer detail we find that the word Petros (Peter in English translations) means stone not rock and it was used by the people of those days as a sort of pun meaning a moveable stone or in todays terms a "rolling stone". This is also seen in non-Biblical Greek writings such as Heracletes who uses it in the phrase "leave no stone(petros) unturned".

When we look at the verses surrounding verse 18 we also see that Jesus is referring to a question that Jesus asked "whom say ye that I am?" and in Peters answer "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" when He says "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

In verse 18 we also see the word rock in English. This word was petra in the original Greek which means  a mass of rock, a large rock. The word petra was used consistently throughout scripture when referring to Jesus or to a foundation/cornerstone of a building not the word petros.
Verses in which petra was used:

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock (petra):
Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock (petra).
 

Luk 6:48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock(petra): and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock (petra).

Luk 8:6  And some fell upon a rock(petra); and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock(petra) that followed them: and that Rock(petra) was Christ.


When comparing these verses, especially the one in 1Cor 10:4 to that of Mat 16:18 we can plainly see that Jesus was talking of Himself as being the foundation of the church.


We can also tell from the following verses that Jesus did not put one Apostle over another but rather considered them all of equal importance to the future church:


Luk 9:46  Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47  And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
Luk 9:48  And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.


Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

piusx, don't you know that Paul was the one who reach the gentiles (non-Jews)? that is why your church (roaman catholic church) use or adopt the name of Paul on most pope.

so don't you think Paul is your (roman catholic church) rock?

What i am saying here is that GOD uses men (Peter, Paul, Timothy) to reach people but we should not worship them?

Below is what Paul did when the Lyconian people tried to worship him in Acts 14

11: And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
   12: And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
   13: Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
   14: Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
   15: And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:   16: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
   17: Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness

Now ask yourself, who established the church GOD or men?  Who we should worship GOD or men?

Amen BLAD,

Also the church at Corinth people were saying "I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ".

Paul told them then "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Add another AMEN BLAD!

AMEN Blad. You made a very good point.

Glory to GOD coz' he gives us wisdom to understand.  I praise him also coz' he let me find this site and learned a lot.

And i know now that there are a lot of Christian that are standing firm on their faith.  and i found a palce to find here those Christians.

Fight the good fight Christian warriors. GOD is with us.

Piusx, is no longer here, as he proved that he was a troublemaker. He wanted to futher, and push his own agenda.

Moderator

Somehow I knew he wouldn't be around very long. like I said the newbies that don't even introduce themselves and just jump right into a post with both feet in their mouth are ususally troublemakers, that don't stay long. Either because they can't handle the truth or they just get banned for breaking the rules.

Oh no! *Panics!* I never made a newbie thread!  :o

Seriously though, pius' writing style "sounded" familiar. I can't remember if it's like "the pope" or someone else.... :-\

Sister sincereheart, I don't think you jumped in with both feet in your mouth now did ya?  :D

 :o   ;D  I have both of my feet in my mouth right now, and I must figure out how to get them out before lunch.

That would be helpful.

One step at a time Brother, first one foot then the next.  ;D  ;D  ;D

I do that quite often brother.

Ditto DW, Read my advice to BEP's

But if I take a step, while my feet are in my mouth...... I'd break my jaw......... Then I wouldn't be able to talk.............  :'(  :'(

(http://smailiki.nm.ru/ero/ero3.gif)

Don't we all though.

Hard advice to take.

It wouldn't hurt your typing though unless you broke an arm in the process.   ;) ;D ;D ;D

you can type and use smileys  ;D

Like minds .....  :o :o :o :o

You wouldn't be able to do that with a broken jaw without the aid of smilies either.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's right,  I forgot you can't walk with your feet in your mouth,
WHAT A DILEMA

I could see him trying it though.   ;) ;D ;D

Thanks brother............... ;)

You're quite welcome.   ;D ;D ;D

Oh yeah! Both feet! Right smack in the middle of a debate! And it got pretty heated! And I made a dear friend from it that I respect tremendously though he was entirely in the wrong on that particular issue!  ;D

Ouch!  :o

If you give a mouse a cookie.....  ;)

But you could still type!  :D

It's a good look for you, Mr. Tom, BEP, Moderator, Policeman, Sir!  ;D

Prolly would break if he fell on it.  :-X

ROFL!

Oh thank you sister................ ::)

You're welcome!  ;D
Moral of the story: If you have both feet in your mouth, don't be trying to walk.  8)

No, moral of the story...................................

Don't put your feet in your mouth, cause they stink................ ;D

That's right, get a skateboard and stay on it.

You would have to have a mighty BIG mouth to put both feet in it.

another moral of the story: don't open your mouth.  ;D

There are some of us whom God gave a mouth to simply to have a place to keep our feet!
So for us the moral is:
Keep your feet clean!  8)

Rofl.  and stop wearing those old cloth shoes.

Nah, I stay barefoot!  8)
My tennies are leather, thankyouverymuch!  ;D
And they're only for when I dress-up and go out!  ;)

..... and they taste bad, too.   ;D ;D ;D

I've seen that done.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

That would be important.

 ;D ;D

Mine are new ones.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

That sounds familiar.   ;D ;D

Sister that reminds me of Jesus, who has washed our feet.

John 13:5-6 Then He poured water into the washbasin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the [servant's] towel with which He was girded. 6  When He came to Simon Peter, [Peter] said to Him, Lord, are my feet to be washed by You? [Is it for You to wash my feet?]

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher (Master), have washed your feet, you ought [it is your duty, you are under obligation, you owe it] to wash one another's feet.

AMEN! The "cleanest" feet to have!

One thing I do not understand about JW's is that they believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven, based on a literal reading of Revelation 7 and 14 which obviously employs figurative language here.  But besides that, if only 144,000 are in heaven then why are they trying so hard to convert people to their faith?  I would imagine that of all the people that have died throughout history, over 144,000 would be in Heaven therefore their "witnessing" is in vain.  How can people fall prey to such nonsense that clearly contradicts what the scriptures say?

Luk 1:15  For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

That is the lure, of cults today. Satan is working over time today, to decieve everyone he can.

Basically, there are two reasons they believe a lie.

One is because they don't want to know the truth:

Romans 1:18-23

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

The other is because they don't know there is reason to recognize the fallacy of their belief system.
This one, of course, reverts back to the first, they don't know because they don't want to.  God works in them though, and I believe there is that little voice in the back of their mind that says, "...look, listen, search..."  I figgure that these are the ones God leads to my door.  Though the first posts on this topic were excellent (I've only read the first page so far), bringing up articles that question their past is pretty much meaningless to the practicing JW (IMO) because it is debateable.  That is why I like to use their own Bible ( the NWT ) against them, because they have it in their hand and claim allegiance to it, as the authority they believe.  Once I show them the book in their own hand is unreliable as a source of truth, their arguments then are meaningless.  They will argue, but the fact remains, I've raised the question, and given it a face.  It's in their mind, and they must deal with it.  If they choose to ignore it, thats their problem, but if they don't, then they may become the next champion for Christ to the JW's.

I was always tought to stay clear of JW......how ever I think it should be known to all readers of the Bible that "Jehovah" translates "OUR GOD" in hebrew.
 
and also take in to mind , Im sure JW feel the same about Catholics, who feel the same way about pentacostal, who feel about bla bla bla..

This is why since the beginning of time there has always bee Geehad ( holy wars ) all over the globe.

There comes a time when "Only GOD can Judge people"

Hi YM.

No we need not steer clear of JW's. We should steer clear of their religion but not them. After all we are to witness to the lost and JW's are lost because they deny that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour.



Act 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


This is not judging people it is determining who we must have need to reach out to, to tell of the wondrous story of the Gospel. To lead the lost sheep to the Shepherd.

As for Jihad that is another story. We have Jihad because the devil wants to attempt to destroy all that is good and righteous and Jesus is the only righteous one. It is His Gospel that the devil wants to destroy and to lead people away from.

I really dont know much about them, I know they dont cellebrate birthdays or Christmas.

Thats kind of the funny part.  They try soooo hard to not ' look like ' the occult, but the pamphlets they hand out at the door are full of occult philosophy.

I guess if they really don't want to looc occultish,  maybe they should become Christian   ;D

I had the TRAVELING DUO at my door today. I refused to answer but my daughter said she would, and tell them that we were CHRISTIAN. Thank usually sends them running but, in this case, they said, WE ARE CHRISTIAN TOO! Um...maybe I am reading into their book and pamphlets wrong. Christian is something they are NOT! CULT, they are. (have 3 relatives that are JW's..nothing Christian about them at all..right down to beliefs).

Their pamphlets do help with starting firewood or the charcoal though. :)

God Bless,
Kelly

I have a lot of flags all over my home both American flags and Christian flags as well as one for the U.S. Navy. I have a big sign hanging on my door with John 3:16 and John 15:13 on it. The verses can be seen from the road. I had a couple of them come to my door some time ago even though I had  all this hanging up. I had nothing to do that day so I talked with them. By the time I got finished they had no time left to go to anyone elses door. They avoided my door after that so then when I saw them in the neighborhood I went out to them. Now they avoid my neighborhood completely.

HAAAH!!!  Way to go PR!  Thats what I figgure to do too, if they won't be swayed by what I say, at least they won't be talking to others who might be decieved. ;).   The last time I had a couple JW's at the door say they were Christians too, I simply said , "no your not, and I can prove it with your own book, can I see it?"  They apparently wern't prepared for that and asked if they could come back sometime and talk to my girlfriend  (it was her house and she wasn't home)  I said that would be fine, she's a Christian too.   Never seen them again.  Now I have to call them up and have them come over, or waylay them in a parking lot or hamburger joint.  Same with the other door knockers.  I'm probly gonna have to move soon, so they come over again.

    1Tim:  I Know what you mean if you know more about there faith then they do they don't want to talk to you they want to get the ones that don't know much, and teach them their ways. belive me i know, Im an EX. JW. They guit comming around in Sourthen Illinois, now that I'm living in South Carolina 1 coluple came by my wife asked them to come back when I was there, and they have not showen up in 8 mounths.

                                       GOD Bless
                                           YBIC

Forrest,

I'm not x-JW, but I understand that being so makes you almost Satan himself right?

I have a few Q's .  What is the significance, to JW's, to insist that Jesus was "impaled on a stake" instead of nailed to a cross.  I've debated this a few times with them (with their NWT) and don't understand the significance they place on it.  In either case Jesus died, was impaled with nails and a spear--either on a cross or stake.  Are they just trying to disagree with mainstream christianity or what?

Do you have any insight into the name "Watchtower Society" and the tradition it's used in?  The term "watchtower"  is also used in Wicca, for apparently the same thing.

What are some insights you may have in how we can witness to them better than we do?

Can you comment more on their training and how they present their case at your door, to better arm us in avoiding the pitfalls and red herrings they use so fluently.


My particular MO tends to be to defeat the NWT they claim their faith is founded on, and reveal that it is not a reliable source of truth.  I realise I will probably never argue them into christianity that way, but then again, I wouldn't by useing a Bible they considered less reliable than the NWT either.  My primary goal is to reveal the unreliable nature of their Bible, and religion, so they have something to chew on untill they either deal with it, and investigate further what is true, or they ignore it.  Either way they make their choice, but at least it was a little more informed than before they came to my door.

I understand what it is to be raised in a religion that does not know Jesus but thinks they do, and convinces you, that you do, so each time I talk to JW's I assume that at least one of them was led to my door by God to hear reasons to look deeper, and find the truth they think they allready have.

This for those that need some ammo. In there World Translation, they changed the word ( KURIOS Lord )  to Jehovah , and that means everywhere Lord is FOUND.
 Except for Phil 2:11, where it says that tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is  LORD , This is the only word   Lord   that they do not change to Jehovah, because they CAN NOT, because if they do , THEY will confess that Lord in Phil 2:11 is Christ, and their house of cards will come fallings down.

Belief in the Trinity is surely an absolute requirement of Christianity?

Hello again Sas,

We are told to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. If we do not believe in the Trinity then who is it that we believe in? If we do not believe in the Trinity then we are believing in just a man. No man was ever perfect nor can they be of their own will. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice in our place on the cross. He had to be more than just a man in order to be that perfect sacrifice. He was very God for only God is perfect. He was fully man and He was fully God.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Hello Sas,

Let's replace your question with two more accurate questions:

1 - Are you SAVED?

2 - Where will you spend ETERNITY - Heaven or Hell?


1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."