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Hi guys. This is a discussion that was started on another Christan forum, and I am curious as to what everyone here thinks.

Is the death penalty right and ethical, Biblically speaking, when executed by God's agent of justice on this earth, IE, the government? Or is it not? Is it akin to abortion?

Alot of the old timers here know my views on this subject already.

Contraception against Gods will (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=7227;start=0)

Some where on the forum is this very subject.
Bob

But how does this topic relate to abortion Dreamweaver? Could you, perhaps, explain to me? :)

That may be, but I believe that humans are not qualified to make this judgement. Romans 3:9-20 is relevant here; just because we spread the Word of God doesn't give us the right to judge who has done right and who has done wrong - on the contrary, we have to face up to the fact that we're actually co-conspirators in the sin of the people we might condemn. The scriptures are addressed to us personally, and are not to be used as a yardstick for the judgement of the behaviour of other people. Paul is very clear on this point.

Does that mean we should abolish the entire criminal justice and penal system? Not necessarily - it just means, we need to remember that the sentences that are passed on criminals are human judgements, and not God's judgement. Sure, those judgements might be based on some laws and directives we've cooked up, and we might even like to convince ourselves that those laws are somehow based on the Ten Commandments - but they're still human judgements.

So it's quite permissible, in my opinion, to set up a system that seeks to restrain offenders for a while, provided that it serves the interest of the wider community. But actually killing people is probably taking it a little bit too far, in my opinion.

I personally don't believe in moral relativism. Spreading nasty gossip about someone is every bit as much a sin as the massacre of six million people. But like I say - we're not qualified to pass judgement on people for these things. In the context of a human-administered justice system, it makes sense to give longer sentences for more serious crimes, in certain circumstances.

Be careful using this statement, brother. If we cannot pass any sort of judgement then it would mean that we could not put them in jail either and as you have already indicated you are not for that.

Hello Little Pilgrim,

Yes it is Biblical. It is Biblical in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One must not mix raisins with watermelons in this discussion. If a mass murderer is sentenced to death and is executed, the death penalty was a "PHYSICAL DEATH PENALTY". ONLY GOD is able to judge for a SPIRITUAL DEATH PENALTY that is eternal punishment. Men don't even pretend to do that.

The Holy Bible is quite clear about who places rulers, rendering unto Caesar and obeying the law, certainly including man's law. There is nothing against the teachings of the Holy Bible for men to be punished for violating the law. The death penalty has been with us for the entire history of mankind, so there is nothing new about this discussion. In fact, the death penalty was the prescribed penalty for many offenses in the Holy Bible. It's fascinating to note that many of man's laws were based on the Holy Bible, and the authority for the penalty was listed as the Holy Bible. If one wanted to use America as an example, serious offenses were listed with the Book, Chapter, and Verse of the Holy Bible with the law as part of the Law Book.

Little Pilgrim, I see absolutely no comparison between abortion and a death sentence given by a judge and jury. In fact, they are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Abortion is the murder of a completely innocent baby. The death penalty is given to a person who has committed horrendous crimes. Abortion is really little more than a murder of convenience to avoid responsibility and many times hide the evidence of another immoral act. I must also add that there is no judge and jury for the murder of the innocent baby.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33 NASB  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

To all of you thinking that the death penatly is right, I disagree. I will always disagree with y'all.
The death penalty is murder. What does the Bible say about murder.........
Exodus 20:13  God commanded, "Thou shalt not murder"
Galatians 5:19-21 "now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."

I am for the death sentence, but only in cases which there is no shadow of doubt.
If there is even a shadow of doubt then natural life.

Here are some interesting biblical perspectives.


The Bible And Capital Punishment http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-bible-and-capital-punishment.htm (http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-bible-and-capital-punishment.htm)

Modern Controversies #2


From time to time, the execution of a convicted killer touches off a flurry of protests, editorials in various print media, and TV and radio talk shows in which the pros and cons (mostly the "cons") of capital punishment are discussed. The message that usually comes from these sources is clear: capital punishment is a barbaric, discriminatory and ineffective method of punishment that needs to be eliminated. Even the Bible is sometimes appealed to in an effort to dissuade the minds of many regarding the state's right to take human life.

It is unfortunate that many who look to God as their ultimate authority in life and to the Bible as the authoritative expression of His will often allow such persuasive speech (Col. 2:4) to shape their attitudes and conclusions on this highly emotional subject. Intimidation seems to have more impact on some than inspiration. Thus this article will limit itself to a study of various texts from divine revelation with the hope and prayer that men and women who claim their first allegiance is to God will allow heavenly wisdom, rather than earthly, to determine their convictions on this subject. When this is done it should not be difficult to conclude that God's will is now and always has been that those who wantonly take the life of another human being deserve to have their life taken from them by the state.

Genesis 9:5-6---Instructions To Noah

In this first clear reference to "capital punishment" a number of things seem obvious.

1. There is something special about "man" as opposed to "beasts" and this is the basis for all injunctions in these two verses: "For in the image of God He made man"
(NASV) .

2. Because of his unique standing in creation, whoever takes man's life is to forfeit theirs.

3. This forfeiture of life is not something that God merely suggests---he requires it. Three times in vs. 5 it is said God "will demand an accounting" (NIV) for "the lifeblood" of men whether the life is taken by an animal or another man and the word "shall" in vs. 6 confirms the imperative nature of the language.

That this is a command God intended to be carried out forever seems clear not just by the language in these two verses but also by subsequent statements in both the Old and New Covenants.

4. Human agency is that through which God works in carrying out this requirement: "also from man, that is from one another, will I demand the soul of man" (Leupold's translation). The particular human agency God had in mind will become clear as we look at the biblical texts dealing with this subject.

That this statement to Noah was not something limited to the era immediately after the flood is evident when we consider the following:

The Law Of Moses---God's Will During The Mosaical Period

All during the time the law of Moses was in affect, it can be seen that God intended for the principles of Gen. 9:5-6 to be carried out. Two things seem obvious from a perusal of this law.

1. There was then (as there is now) a difference between "murder" and "killing". "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex. 20:13) is really "thou shalt not murder." To use the sixth commandment as a prohibition against the taking of human life under whatever circumstances is an egregious misuse of that divine precept. That this is so is apparent when one considers a second point.

2. Immediately after giving the "thou shalt not kill" precept, the following two chapters list at least ten offenses punishable by death: all forms of murder, 21:12; (Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-21); striking, cursing parents, 21:15,17; (Deut. 19:19-21); kidnapping, 21:16; slaying an unborn child, 21:23; owner of an animal that kills, 21:29; sorcery 22:18; (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 13:1-5); bestiality, 22:19; idolater, 22:20; (Lev. 20:1-5; Deut. 13:6-9; 17:2-7); abducting people for slavery, 21:16; (Deut. 24:7); Sabbath breaking, Ex. 31:14; 35:2; Num. 15:32-36.

3. Additional scriptures give even more reasons for putting one to death: blasphemy, Lev. 24:14,16, 23; 1 Kings 21:13; adultery, Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; incest, Lev. 20:11-17; rape, Deut. 22:25; false witnesses, Deut. 19:16-19; homosexuality, Lev. 20:13; false prophets, Deut. 18:20-22; resisting judgment, Deut. 17:8-13; immorality before marriage but detected afterwards, Deut. 22:13-21; non-Levites coming near or into sacred areas or duties, Num. 1:51; 3:10,38; 18:7.

God's will under the law of Moses didn't just allow but demanded the taking of human life. But what about the new covenant; what, if anything, does Christ say on the subject of the state's right to execute convicted criminals?

John 19:10-11---Jesus And Capital Punishment

In these verses Pilate made two explicit affirmations in the presence of Christ: (a) he had certain power (authority) as a civil magistrate and (b) this authority included the right to pass and carry out a death sentence, vs. 10. In vs. 11, Jesus responded to these statements but didn't indicate that Pilate was in error in regard to either of them. Instead, He concedes the accuracy of Pilate's assertions with the significant observation that this authority was given to him by God. If Jesus was the social activist that some claim and if capital punishment was evil, it seems strange that he didn't rebut the Roman governor's claims. Acknowledging his right to act as an
agent of civil government and carry out a death sentence seems highly unlikely and inconsistent if the Lord knew this was not now and had never been His Father's will.

There is one other interesting observation regarding this incident. Pilate was acting as an agent of a Gentile government which indicates that what is legislated in the law of Moses was not peculiar to that era or that group of people but is based upon some eternal principle applicable to all nations for all times, just as Gen. 9:5-6 suggests.

Acts 25:11---Paul Before Festus.

Under circumstances similar to those described in Jo. 19:10-11, Paul stood before the Roman procurator Festus and used his Roman citizenship to avoid being sent back to Jerusalem to a kangaroo court. In making his defense the apostle acknowledged (1) the legitimacy of "Caesar's judgment-seat", i.e., that civil governments have a rightful function in society, vs. 10, and (2) that he was not afraid to die if found guilty as charged. In his use of the phrase "worthy of death" he was in agreement with what would be stated later by Festus, vs. 25, and the other government officials, 26:31, when they, too, used this expression: certain wrong-doers are worthy of having their lives taken from them and civil governments have the right to administer such punishment. Why would Paul, who had the "mind of Christ", 1 Cor. 2:16, speak this way if this form of punishment didn't have God's sanction? That Paul's convictions regarding this matter were consistent can be seen in what he said in the final passages we examine.

Rom. 12:19; Rom. 13:1-7

Rom. 12:19 teaches (1) we are not to avenge or exact justice on our own but rather (2) "give place", i.e., make room for, God's wrath. What is meant by "God's wrath" is explained in the next phrase: "Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord." So evil men experience God's wrath as He takes vengeance on them. But how and when does God do this? Read Rom. 13:1-7.

There are "higher powers" ("Caesar's judgment-seat", Acts 25:10) that God has "ordained", vs. 1. Those who arrange themselves in battle (see Vine, p. 958) against their authority are setting themselves against God and shall receive judgment, vs. 2. But when and how does this judgment take place? Vss. 3-4 make it clear: rulers are intended to be a "terror" to evil men and their deeds, vs. 3, because they are ministers of God. Through the ministers of civil government God wields the "sword", the instrument of justice and punishment, and His intention is that it not be "borne" ("a continual or habitual condition," Vine, 93) "in vain" ("to no purpose", Vine, 1193).

Clearly, the "wrath of God" that we are to "give place to" as He takes vengeance is that which is administered at human hands in various forms of civil government as they wield the "sword."

Conclusion

Not only is it clear that the Old Testament sanctioned the death penalty, it is equally obvious that the punishment was to be done in order not to pollute the land, Num. 35:31, 33, and done so swiftly in order to serve as a deterrent: Deut. 19:19-21; Ecc. 8:11. I'm convinced that the "it's not a deterrent" argument could never be seriously made in a society where capital punishment was consistently and swiftly carried out.

Whatever hypothetical or real-life emotional scenarios one might set forth as an argument against capital punishment, the Bible-believer is faced with the realization that this is a practice that had God's approval during every major period of Bible history. One has to work hard and twist language to make the verses examined in this study say anything else.

 

 By David Smitherman 
 From Expository Files 3.2; February 1996

God Bless you all my friends...

John Bronzesnake

I'd like to add someting else.

Does it bother anybody that whenever some ruthless murderer is about to meet God for his ultimate judgement all the same characters come out of the woodwork.

Jesse Jackson - Al Sharpton - Joan Biaz etc
They all hold up their little candles and sing awful folk songs written by Joan Biaz and the tears flow down to the sea.
Let this poor man go! He's a good guy now - Ya, because he got caught and he's been locked away where he can't kill innocent people anymore - ya, but he wrote a children's book - That is sick and scarry!

Where are all these kind hearted people when innocent folks get brutally slaughtered? Why aren't they ever out lobbying against murderers? Why don't they show up at the victim's families home and offer the same kind of empathy and sympathy for such great loss?

Hypocrites!!

Brother,

Please remember, I brought my wifes killer to the Lord. He is serving a life sentence, without the chance of parole. He is now serving as the assistance Pastor in prison. I do recieve calls from him, when he has a question. I am willing to forgive him, and I have. He is now my brother, in Christ.

Amen Brother, It makes me absolutely sick too. I think that if a person has been tried, his guilt has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and he has been sentenced to death, he should not be allowed  to continue to live out another 20-30 years on our tax dollars, he should be put to death and the penalty should be carried out, and the media should only be notified after the fact.

DW, I am sorry, I never knew how you lost your wife, I am happy that the person who did this to you has had a change of heart and is now serving the Lord. But Brother there are a great many people in prison, who continue to live lives of crime,I admit ther are many who give their life to the Lord and really change and continue to live for the Lord, but there are also those like Charles Manson, who never change. Then there are those who think that they are above reproach like Scott Petersen, people like them might never even repent or even feel remorse for their crimes.

I remember a situation in the news not to long ago about a woman that had commited murder. She was tried, convicted and sentenced to death. While waiting the death sentence she had accepted the Lord. She also said that she realised that she had commited a crime and was ready to pay for that crime in what ever way the government decided. She went to her death being ready to meet the Lord.

I understand your position Brother Bob and I am glad that you have been able, through Christ, to forgive that person. It is what God would want us to do, for forgiveness is to the benefit of the spiritual health of our hearts. This does not preclude a person from facing the consequences of their sin here on earth. As for afterwards it is up to the Lord.

It is the same thing in time of war. Sometimes it is necessary for killing to take place in conditions of war. This does not mean that we are to hate our enemies. In fact it is quite the opposite. We are to love our enemies but this still does not preclude us from shooting or killing them in that situation, but we must do so without hate or anger in our hearts.

They have made their choice, of their own free will. They will have to answer to the Lord, not to me. I try and not judge anyone. Confessed murder or not, I am not their judge. Jesus is the Chief judge and jury and sentencer. To the Lake of Fire, all who have deined Jesus.

At the trial, I prayed to God and through prayer I was able to recieve peace of mind and what God wanted me to do. Before sentence was passed, I was asked if I want to make a statement to the court. I did and asked for a life sentence, without a chance of parole. Which was granted, I went to prison, on visiting day, and ministered to him. The rest is now history. I have forgiven him, and he has recieved the Lord.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--and if not, blot me, I pray You, out of Your book which You have written!

John 20:23 [Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

Colossians 3:13 Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive].

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ( left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have given up resentment against) our debtors.

Amen. PR, Brother Bob, I don't know how I would react if I was ever in the position you found yourself in, I can only pray that my faith and love and patience is a strong as yours.

Amen, Brother Bob. Those verses are exactly what I was talking about.

We must not forget:

Tit 3:1  Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

While here on earth we are subject to the powers of government that God has placed in that position. It is the same as Jesus and Paul both did. Neither one said that those governments had no right to judge them and determine what happened to their physical bodies. In fact it was quite the opposite.

That is why we are also told;

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Sister Maria, I pray you are never in that position. If you are though, pray to the Lord. Jesus will never lead you astray, from his path.

Romans 5:18 Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

DW, I pray I never have to go through anything like that either, but we never know what will happen from one minute to the next. All we can do is pray, and trust God to see us through any difficult times.

AMEN sister AMEN

Bob,  that's quite a testimony.  It certainly is humbling my friend.   :)

I also want to add that I am for the death penalty.  I do believe that it is biblical in the sense of following the governmental leadership we are under.  That's somewhat of a thin line, as I wouldn't follow them if they told me not to worship God or tell others of Jesus.  But, I do find biblical support for this. 

But what I also find if God's mercy.  Which of us does not deserve death right here and now?  Jesus Himself even stayed an execution...yet He did not do the same for two thieves hanging next to Him.  Different circumstances, yes, but the same God.  The law demanded both deaths; one Hebrew, the other Roman.

Just a thought... :)

Brother Kevin,

Remember we are to make ourselves humbling to the Lord. And he has lifted me up. Thats one of the reason, I call alot of you (CU) family to me. The only thing I can say, if I had to do it all again, I would, pain and all.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Proverbs 25:7 For better it is that it should be said to you, Come up here, than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, whose eyes have seen you.

Edited to add;

P.S. This will be my last post in this thread, it's just to painful to me. Though I will follow what y'all say.
Bob

Hey.  Any way you look at it, God grants grace and mercy to us all.  I believe it would do us all good to do the same.  It has had a tremendous affect in your situation Brother, and God has blessed many through it.  Love ya man.  Prayin' for ya too!   :)

Good point. I should clarify. In my opinion, there's judgment and there's moral judgement. When a doctor makes a decision to offer a particular kind of treatment to a patient that may have adverse side-effects, he makes that decision based on the results of diagnostic tests. He should never have to decide whether the patient is an inherently "good" or "bad" person - even in cases where the treatment is for drug dependency, or a sexually transmitted disease.

And I think about legal judgements in the same way. A judge or magistrate can administer the law, and sentence people to prison, community service or probation without deciding whether or not, in his opinion, the defendent is an inherently "good" or "bad" person - and if he does let the idea that the defendent might be inherently good or bad cloud his judgement, then he's not doing his job properly - just like the doctor who treats drug dependency or STD's.

I appreciate that this is not necessarily a reason for opposing capital punishment. For example, a judge could decide that a defendant should be sentenced to death, in the same way that a public health doctor could decide that a person with a highly infectious illness should be quarantined, at risk they might die from their illness, and perhaps even actively killed, in order to protect the health of the wider community. No-one would dream of suggesting that the person with the illness is inherently bad - but if killing them is the only way to protect the population at large from a cataclysmic epidemic - then so be it.

Fortunately - thanks to the advances in antibiotics that God has given us, the scenario where we have to kill someone to contain an infection arises only very infrequently. And I see the death sentence in much the same way. Convicted murderers, as a general rule, pose far less risk to the community than people with the most serious contagious diseases, in my opinion - but if we can't justify the routine killing of people will infectious illnesses, then how much less can we justify the killing of people convicted of serious crimes.

I absolutely completely agree with blackeyedpeas on that point. However, I still believe that the death penalty is an exception, to be used strictly in circumstances where it truly benefits the wider community only - and that those circumstances are very few and far between indeed. Even multiple murders aren't justification enough, provided we can safely house inmates for their natural lives. I don't even believe that Saddam Hussein or the Nazi war criminals have necessarily done enough to justify a death penalty, since neither of them pose a major risk to the wider community in their current state.

Dreamweaver,

Brother,

I answered Frederick Dalton from the perspective of a Christian Police Officer and seeing 25 years of untold misery. However, I forgot about your most valid perspective when I answered Frederick. So, please accept my apology. I really can't imagine the depth of your perspective, but I do respect it tremendously.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 9:9-10 NASB  The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble;  And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You.

Not a problem brother, I understood where you were coming from.

Is there a difference between "murder" and "kill"?

Hello Sincereheart,

Sister, I really think that you would need to add some more terms and definitions to get to the meat of most debates.

There are also various arenas that are generally the focus for many debates on the topic. However, the subject of the thread is "Capital Punishment", so the main area for this discussion would be court, man's law, and due process under the law. The arguments for and against enter other arenas.

Generally, "Murder" in all areas of discussion is the illegal and wrongful taking of of human life by God's law and by man's law.

Generally, "Put to death" in all areas of discussion indicates an action under the law or prescribed by man's law or God's law, or both. There are many offenses in the Holy Bible where the prescribed penalty is to be "put to death". It should be easily noted that there are many parallels and comparisons between God's law and man's law.

Generally, "Kill" could be in several areas of discussion, both legal and illegal under man's law or God's law. This is probably the broadest areas of discussion, but not in the Capital Punishment debate. This could involve war, accident, self-defense, murder, and generally everything where death results. As an example, there is a big difference between death in a fire and death in an arson fire.

In either arena of God's Law or man's law, you definitely have to define the death and carefully determine what applies. As an example the Commandment of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" obviously did not apply to the numerous death penalties for various offenses in the Holy Bible. If you carried God's Law over into the arena of man's law, the same would be true. In fact, many areas in man's law that involves the death penalty was derived directly from God's Law.

In conclusion, I would say that I completely understand the various opinions on Capital Punishment. I would agree with it for numerous reasons, but I would have complete respect for people who disagree with it. What I don't understand is why some people claim to have big problems in defending their own families. I would have no hesitation or problem at all in defending my family. If death resulted for the intruder or aggressor, I would use the term "killed" or "defense of my family". It certainly wouldn't be murder because I feel that I have every legal right under man's law and God's law to protect my family. "Turn the other cheek" does not apply when someone is trying to kill a family member. I fully understand that many of my beliefs are blunt or harsh, and those beliefs are heavily influenced by 25 years in police work. However, I feel certain that my beliefs are still Christian, and I was a Christian Police Officer with the "Christian" first. I had to study, think, and pray about this matter long and hard before I ever entered the profession. I'm sure that the same would be true for a Christian Soldier.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:26-27 NASB  In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Yes exactly in the times of Moses if someone needed the death penalty they just took them out side the city right then and took care of it. Oh and what about in Joshua 7 remember the story of Achan who had taken things that he shouldn't. They not only stoned him but his entire family

Joshua 7: 22 -26 So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent; and there it was, hidden in his tent, with the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, brought them to Joshua and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the Lord. Then Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, the silver, the garment, the wedge of gold, his sons, his daughters, his oxen, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and all that he had, and they brought them to the Valley of Achor. And Joshua said, “Why have you troubled us? The Lord will trouble you this day.” So all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones. Then they raised over him a great heap of stones, still there to this day. So the Lord turned from the fierceness of His anger. Therefore the name of that place has been called the Valley of Achor to this day.