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Ways that God the Father fully resides in Christ thus making Him God(Father)

1. The Father give His own Name to the Son.
2. The Father give all His power to the Son.
3. The Father manifested thru the Son.
4. The Father glorified in the Son.
5. The Son submitted himself to the Father.
5. Jesus Christ will be sitting to the only one throne of God in  
    heaven.
6. The glory of God is in the face of Jesus.
7. The Holy Ghost(God's power overshadow) who came to the
    womb of Mary, and not God the Son of Trinitarian who
    came to Mary.

Jesus Christ maneuver the power of God that was all given unto Him while God take control of Him.

God = Power
fullness of God = all power of God

A Oneness preacher by the name of Michael Servetus taught- "I do not separate Christ from God any more than a voice from the speaker or a ray from the sun... An amazing mystery it is that God can thus be conjoined with man and man with God. A great wonder that God has taken to himself the body of Christ that it should be his peculiar dwelling place..." -Quoted in Hunted Heretic, R. Bainton, Beacon Press, p. 49.
Calvin became so angry over the writings of Michael Servetus (1511-1556 A.D.), who taught against the Trinity, and taught One God, that he had Servetus burned at the stake in Geneva... Although Calvin must bear the primary guilt of the murder of Servetus, many other Catholics and Protestants were in favor of it." --Ancient Champions of Oneness, W.B. Chalfant, Word Aflame Press, p. 153.

Michael Servetus
is well known for
using  his human reasoning power to reject  scripture's teaching
on One true God in three person's.
John 20:17
And  
John calvin is well known for using  his human  reasoning power  to go against scripture's
teaching that Christ Died for all winning all people  forgivness of sin's and a home in Heaven with Jesus.
2nd corinthians 5:18-19

both were very reasonable men.

Hopefuly none of us will not be  so reasonable .

Christianity needs "not" to be made "reasonable".
for it is human  reason that  needs to be made more Christian.
Romans 11:33-36

human  reason needs to hold it self "captive to Scripture".
Gods word! 2 corinthians 10:5

Amen.

Pastor Roger,

Prove to me how Servetus in regard with his view in God reject the scriptures teaching?

I think the Trinity teaching is more by product of human reason, and even become unreasonable doctrine.

I never said anything about Servetus or his teachings nor do I intend to do so. There are some people that twist the teachings of the Trinity into something that it is not nor has it ever been.

The teaching of the Trinity is very often misunderstood. Some think that it is the teaching of three separate gods. It is not three separate gods. It is ONE GOD in three manisfestations, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even though the word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible it does teach us just this .... ONE GOD in three different manifestations. Just because this word was not used in the Bible does not make it false. There are many words used today that were not used in the Bible. It does not make them false unless the meaning behind them, the context, is false.

Another example is calling the beast of Revelations the anti-Christ. There are those that will dispute this unendingly. Anti-Christ means to be against Christ. The beast of Revelations is against Christ and all that is Christ therefore it is also ANTI-CHRIST.

Some go so far as to say that you can only use the word Yeshua when referring to Him. Others say it must be YHWH and to use any other name is blasphemy.

Jesus Christ, Yeshua, Jehoshua, God, YHWH, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or hundreds of others,

HE IS ALL ONE AND THE SAME

I don't know all that much about Servetus.  Did read a little about his life.  IMO it appears he was obsessive-compulsive, and in the end, it got him fired-up. :-X

Amen!!

I don't know who Michael Servetus is but, I do got to say AMEN!

I think you are not somewhat an orthodox Trinitarian, by what your statement only proves that Servetus is not wrong

Hi  marc_serv,

As I said, I know nothing of Michael Servetus nor of his teachings therefore I do not intend to say anything about him. I will though state as I did above that the Bible does support the teachings of the Trinity even though the bible does not specifically use that given word.

 
1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Hello Marc_Serv,

As far as I know, all of us here believe in the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - the THREE being distinct and unique - yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD.

There's nothing unusual about this doctrine at all, as it is the basis for Christianity and 100% founded in the Holy Bible. Those who deny any member of the Godhead (Holy Trinity) are in false religions and cults. The Holy Bible testifies of all THREE from cover to cover.

I've never heard of Michael Servetus. I would simply say that if he teaches anything other than the Holy Trinity, he is a false teacher. Jesus Christ is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, and the THREE members are called the Godhead - THREE UNIQUE MEMBERS - YET ONE ALMIGHTY GOD.

Many of the same Biblical facts to prove that Jesus Christ is God are used to prove the Holy Trinity as absolute fact. You can read several lengthy threads in the Apologetics section, "Is Jesus God?", for much more information.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:8-9 NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.html

Hello Cris,

I wish you had put this in the thread on the same subject. I read this, and all I could do is shake my head "no". I read "no original sin" and mixing astrology, and I stopped reading. He wouldn't be burned at the stake these days, but he would be labeled a nut. I must also add that some of his writing was definitely blasphemy, especially when he made fun of the Holy Trinity as a three-headed beast. I skimmed enough to see a list of weird things, and I can easily understand why he couldn't find anyone to agree with him.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 5:17-18 NASB  For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

"does not except the eternal diety of Jesus"

"Servetus rejected the doctrine of original sin and the entire theory of salvation based upon it, including the doctrines of Christ's dual nature and the vicarious atonement effected by his death."

He sounds like a very confused, mixed up, lost individual that attempted to use the logic of the human mind to understand the divine nature of God.

OK, I'll put it there.  Then you can erase the Servetus new thread topic in theology.


Grace and peace,
cris

Michael Servetus

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.html

Hello Pastor Roger,

Brother, I think that both of us were far too kind in our overall description of Michael Servetus. He was a false teacher of the worst type when he lived, and his books would represent the worst type of false teaching now.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:2 NASB  that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

Brothers and Sisters,

I combined two threads on the same subject so we could all respond in the same thread.

Tom

BEP,

Right after the first few posts about him, I posted that I thought the guy was obsessive-compulsive.  He got no kudos from me, but others were posting Amen's.  I knew no one knew who this guy was, so that's why I posted the link.  

Grace and peace,
cris

It is understandable now why no one here knew anything about Michael Servetus.
The Amens though were in response to :

I knew nothing about Michael Servetus, either.  Why is it understandable that no one here knew anything about him?  That does not compute in this ole brain, because I didn't know anything about him either, until I checked it out before posting.  Hadn't ever heard the name mentioned before this thread.

I understand pocket's comment and must agree with him, also.  Sometimes there's misunderstanding on this forum that needs addressed at times, but isn't.

Grace and peace,
cris

Cris, Pastor Roger, and Others,

I saw the part that I would say Amen to also. I guess this would be a fairly good example that you could take quotes or isolated portions out of just about any book and think it might be a good book until you read several pages.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

AMEN!  That's exactly what PR and you were saying earlier on a completely different topic, about the condition of our country...............how the idiots were quoting our ancestral public officials, and leaving out parts of that quote to fit their own agenda.  Excuse me for calling them idiots, but it's much better than others I'm thinking of. ;) ;D

Grace and peace,
cris

Because he was a false teacher from the 1500's and not important enough to have heard about him.

Personally I think you are being to kind.   ;) ;) ;D ;D

I'd have to say that the reason not many people know about him is because his teachings are pretty much demented and hold very little water in theological and scholarly circles. Just my 2 cents wroth.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Exactly, although I was familiar with his teachings from having spent time studying the beliefs of the Unitarian Universalists, just not his name.

Credit where credit isn't deserved.  I didn't want to get thrown off the forum. ;) ;D

 


 

I don't foresee that happening.

As I said on that other thread ..... Many who use quotes improperly do so out of ignorance, others simply knowingly lie.

Those that do so out of ignorance quite often are just repeating what they have heard without checking them out for their validity. Others just outright lie by making up quotes or twisting existing quotes by leaving important portions of them out.

I guess idiot may be applied in either case.  

 :D :D

Okay Pastor, actually I too myself don't know much about the the teaching of Servetus except in his views about the Godhead and Christ nature. I even reject some of his teachings except in his teaching about the Godhead and Christ nature.

I just qouted Servetus in his belief about the Godhead and his againts in infant baptism because this was his very core teaching that cause his life. Let us focus to discuss regarding the true nature of Christ as what this my thread emphasized and not to divert the discussion to personal attacks to Servetus.

As you qouted the verse 1John 5:7, really the scriptures says that three bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one but not trinity!

Hiya Marc,

I see your positions as far as what you've said so far, however, i must say that I will have to disagree with your last statement. Any student of hermenutics will know that one of the first rules in systematically studying Scripture is that words have depth and can convey a general truth in Scripture. These truths don't have to be blatantly spoken, however, as more than one Scripture continues to support a general Truth, we begin to pull from it and put the pieces together. I.E. the Trinity. The word "Trinity" isn't used, however, the idea, or truth that God has chosen to reveal, is still there. Again, any serious student of Scripture and hermenutics will see that there is depth to words and as to the idea being conveyed in a passage of Scripture. Just thought i'd add this. God Bless

Coram Deo,
Joshua

marc_serv,




Exactly what do you think the word "trinity" means? It means the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

Now look at 1 John 5:7 again. It shows three persons in one God. This is just one of the many, many verses that attest to this fact. If one would study the Bible has a whole it would show this truth.

I also suggest that you read through the following threads for more on this subject.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=2397

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=6495

 

You have been given the truth on this matter. It is now up to you as to whether you accept it or reject it.

 

Hello Marc_Serv,

I just skimmed one article about Michael Servetus, but I didn't find anything Christian about anything he taught, most certainly including his denial of the Holy Trinity, original sin, and just about everything associated with Salvation. So, in all of the important parts, he was simply a false teacher and nothing more. So, I wouldn't understand why a Christian would choose him as an example for anything, as his teachings were NOT Christian. His teachings look much more like Islam, NOT Christian.

If you're having a problem with the term "Trinity", that simply means three. If you quote 1 John 5:7, "Holy Trinity" is just a shorter way of saying the same thing.

From Dictionary.com

   1.  A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
   2. Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
   3. Trinity - Trinity Sunday.

"Triune" is the root word for Trinity, and it also means three. So, if you understand and accept 1 John 5:7, you also accept "Holy Trinity" because the two are saying exactly the same thing. If you have some sort of mental block about saying the term "Holy Trinity", just quote 1 John 5:7 and all Christians will know what you believe. However, if you reject 1 John 5:7 as being true, you would be rejecting Christianity, even more so with each belief that Servetus connected to this issue. In blunt terms, you would be completely lost. The only value I could see for the material of Servetus would be for keeping a fire going.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NASB  You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

I shall direct you to a few essays that have been written on this subject. The first is by Johnathon Edwards, the second is by Robert Bowman. these should provide for enough reading without being too exhaustive.

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/trinity/trinity.html

The Trinity from Apologetics.com (http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/doctrinal_apologetics/bowman-trinity.html)

Hopefully this will further help in explaining in ways i may not be able to. enjoy

Coram Deo,
Joshua

Copy and paste the second one into your browser, the first one seems to go at first click

Joshua

Brother Joshua,

I posted that second link in a different way to make it work. I hope you don't mind. The address was just too long, and I don't know what the forum software will handle. See the example below on how to do this. I had to change the "[]" to "{}" so the example would show clearly:

[url=www.verylongurladdress.......}Title Or Label{/url}

As far as I know, the above method will work for url addresses of just about any length. By the way, the articles were excellent. Thanks!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Naw that's not a problem at all. I havn't taken the time to learn how to post ver long urls in this forum. Or any HTML for that matter due to my studies. Speaking of which, i have a French final s o i'd best get outta here. Have a good one.

Joshua

No need to be a hermenutics in order to be save.
No wonder that Jesus said that the truth is not revealed to the wise.

In the Bible only can be found is Holy One not Holy Trinity, and if did happen that the Holy One cannot be found in the Bible maybe I may come to believe in you.
I will not gamble the Holy One to the Holy Trinity that not even God having pronounce it!

Contrary to your statement in John 5:7 it clearly says that the three bear record in heaven are holy one, not holy trinity.
Really the scriptures says that three bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one but not trinity!

Marc,

I don't know if you're dense or we are.  Also, it doesn't appear that English is your first language as your posts are very difficult to read.  I don't mean to discourage you from posting, but please understand the difficulty I'm having reading your posts.

There IS one God.  You are correct in that statement.  What you don't seem to understand are the personages of that one God.  There is IN one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  That's what we call a Trinity.  God manifests Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  The manifestations of God is called Trinity.  There aren't three Gods but ONE God.

marc_serv,

You either are not reading what we have said or you are not understanding. Trinity = three. It is the same thing. These three are one.

Trinity = Triune

Triune means =  

1 : being a single unit or thing

2 a : being one in particular  b : being preeminently what is indicated
 
3 a : being the same in kind or quality  
   b (1) : constituting a unified entity of two or more components  
      (2) : being in agreement or union


Three = Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One = God

It is difficult for mans mind to understand how
1 + 1 + 1(which is 3) = 1 but it does. It doesn't sound logical does it? But then understanding God cannot be narrowed down to human logic. This lack of understanding of the mysteries of God is what it means by not using mans wisdom.

I cannot make it any simpler than this. If you cannot understand this then I suggest you turn to God and ask Him for guidance instead of turning to a man like Michael Servetus that will turn you away from the saving grace of God.

When I say hermenutics, I'm simply saying any serious student of the Word. Never said you had to have a grasp of hermenutics in order to be saved. If you can find a place where those words came out of my mouth, I will retract my statement. So did Solomon not have truth? He was counted wise. My wisdom (God forbid I even deserve it) comes from God. I count on Him for whatever wisdom He wishes to lavish upon me. However, in the pursuit of knowledge and scholarship, being a student of the Word has strengthened my resolve to seek God's truths in His Holy Word. Again, just because it does not say it blatantly in Scripture, does not mean that such a revelation is not there. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

Jemidon said:  Just because it does not say it blatantly in Scripture, does not mean that such a revelation is not there.

Hmmmm............That's what catholics have been saying all along, but not necessarily in reference to the Trinity. That's the point some catholics who were on this forum were trying to get across. I'm thinking about issues that were brought up way back..........when there was a catholic-protestant war going on here at CU. I don't think you were a member at that time.  Just a few thoughts, too.  BTW, I'm not catholic.

The important thing to remember here is that the Trinity is in fact in the Bible. The word itself is not there but the meaning behind the word is very clearly depicted there.  

I understand what you're saying PR.  The point I was trying to make is that catholic debaters were trying to get this very same point across (not the Trinity, though).  Whatever they were discussing, they were pointing to a bible passage to substantiate their point.  We're trying to do the same thing explaining the Trinity to Marc.  He hasn't seen it, yet.  People on the board didn't see the catholic point, either.  That's all I was trying to say. :P

As you know I wasn't here during the Catholic/Protestant "war" that took place here. I understand though how people of both sides can be in regards to that.

I must agree with Joshua's statement on revelations. Yet at the same time we must be careful of these revelations. If a revelation is blatantly opposite of the teaching of the Bible then it is a false revelation and should  be completely avoided. If the revelation is supported by the Bible then we can say it is a true revelation.

What constitutes the Bible supporting a revelation? I would say that it would take more than just a verse or portion of a verse. In the example that I gave in 1 John 5:7 of the Trinity. The entire Bible supports this not just a lone verse. Therefore a revelation on the Tinity in this matter is a true Biblical revelation.




 

I was here during the last portion of that catholic/protestant war. You'll notice that my statements about those revelations...keep in mind that what I am speaking of are those revealed to us by GOD. If it goes against the general tenor of scripture concerning an issue it should be discounted. For example...grace. The general tenor of Scripture is that we are saved by Grace. Even some 'christians' deny this. Also, the difference between now trying to discuss a point of doctrine and then discussing a point of doctrine is that in i'm not referring to just one place in Scripture where that truth is displayed. I will not stand on just one scripture when concerning a biblical doctrine. Those who have read my previous posts in the past, know that i will seek out and study to make sure what I say is biblically sound. i to have thought about the past catholic/protestant war that raged on this site. However, this is a completely different set of circumstances and personally, i am responding and challenging at the same time, to study it for yourselves. That's the one thing that lacks most often is people just take what is said at face value instead of doing the research themselves. Nothing against anyone on this forum, it's just something that I am trying to guard against. Again, I will hold to the statement "Scripture supports itself." Just a few thoughts.

Coram Deo
Joshua

Very good synopsis of general revelation of Scripture Rogers...Could not have said it any better.

Joshua

Whoops, I should have used the plural, as in passages, not singular, as in passage, because that's what I meant.

Yes, I have to agree, we must be careful, but no one has ALL the answers.  Some people think they do though.  For example, take the Calvinist theology.  Each one of those people think they are one of the elect. They believe they're going to heaven and we're going to hell.  They get their information from the bible, PR.  They don't believe they're twisting the Truth.  They believe that their interpretation is the correct one.  We think they're wrong.  This is why there are so many debates on scripture interpretation.  It means different things to different people.  I don't think it should be this way, but it is.  IMO, we have the Reformation to thank for all these different denominations (opinions of interpretation).  Somebody is very definitely wrong.

 

BTW I'm calvinist...

Joshua

Okay, PR.....................this one's for you! :-X

One of the key words that you used is the primary problem here  ....  "denomination". Denomination = a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body. In doing so people set up doctrines (not necessarily Biblical). People then believe these doctrines closing their eyes and minds to what the Bible is telling us. This is especially so of the Calvanites. They read certain verses (note plural form) yet ignore many others. When studying the Bible we must look at the Bible in whole, everything that it says, not just those that we wish to support our individual doctrines.

This is how mens doctrines have taken over the Doctrines of Jesus Christ. You are right when you say that no one knows everything the Bible has to tell us. 50 years of studying the Bible and I am still learning and will most likely do so if I were to live to 100 years or more.

However we know nothing at all if we leave all the studying for someone else to do and simply listen to what they have to say. The verse "2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" was placed in the Bible for a valid reason. This is not to say that we should not listen to others such as Pastors and teachers. It is to say that we should as Joshua said above to "seek out and study to make sure [it]  ..... is biblically sound".



To many denominations follow a man and not Jesus Christ.

PR said:  It is to say that we should as Joshua said above to "seek out and study to make sure [it]  ..... is biblically sound."


Apparently Joshua is doing just that.  He believes Calvinism is biblically sound.  He's proved it to himself with scripture.

 ??? ??? ???

 :-[ :-[ :-X :-X

I just saw his post saying that. Unlike most Calvinists though he is searching out the scriptures for himself. Most Calvinists that I have known rely completely on the writings of John Calvin  and ignore portions of the Bible.

My apologies Joshua. I meant nothing personal by my comments about Calvinists. I was referring to certain ones that I have met and, unlike you, the majority of them were not very Christ-like themselves.

Well, that HAS NOT been my experience.  He isn't unlike most Calvinist's I've known. The ones that I had experience with used scripture to prove their interpretation was correct. They searched it out, PR.  I can't remember one that I knew, ever referring to Calvin's writings. They used the bible exclusively.  Talk about the doctrine of men..............!








 

I am going by those that I have met and perhaps they were the exception to the norm (whatever the "norm" is). I don't mean to single out Calvinists here and pick on them alone. This same thing could be said about various other individuals of various different denominations also. I myself am non-denominational for the reasons I gave above. The very word denomination tends to split Christians up instead of unifying and all to often the type of individual I was referring to will say "if you don't belong to my denomination you aren't saved and are going to hell" all based on the teachings of a man.

Pastor Roger:
LoL...is all I can say. I am a Calvinist and am not afraid to state as such. However, first and foremost, I am saved by Grace through faith in JESUS Christ. It is His blood whereby which I am justified and sanctified. There is no dispute over that. While I hold to the doctrines of Grace, that has little bearing in that I trust my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as my intimate bridegroom. I seek truth according to Scripture. I tend to agree with Calvin's writings, but that's not to say that I am closeminded to what anyone else has to say on the matter. No disrespect taken Pastor Roger. You know me by my statements and you know that when it comes to Theological discussion (and I use discussion because discussing is what I always do) I will present my stance, and back it up with Scripture that support each other, as well as the truth given from the study of the Scriptures themselves. I know you don't mean to single out Calvinists, however, you as well as I do know that not all are the same. That individual you referred to is known as a hyper calvinist which is completely different than traditional calvinism and it often leads to fatalism. Hence why he makes that statement that you have just produces. I follow the teachings of God first and foremost, and I will give heed to the teachings of man ONLY after I have searched the Scriptures. You might call me a reformed calvinist or a supporter of reformed theology. However you wish, I am the same person I was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. My spiritual gifts have not diminished nor has my calling been affected. So no worries brother. I knew I would get a bit of a response, however, I had to speak up because I won't sit by while other calvinists, who are just as dedicated to the Word, if not more than I, are labeled as these harsh people who think they know who is and who is not going to hell. You see where i'm coming from...:) So no worries brother, no dis-respect recieved.

Now Cris:

I noticed you said that I am not unlike the Calvinists you have known. Again, I am first and foremost a Beliver in the Lord Jesus Christ, secondly, I am a disciple, thirdly I am a calvinist, and 4thly i am a southern baptist. Now does that make me any less of a believer than anyone else on this forum? I have to ask the question because it seems that many have a major grievance against Calvinists that is often unfounded. You'll find that there are more hyper-calvinists than there are biblical calvinists. And I use the term biblical to distinguish us from the hyper calvinists that believe in fatalism. If I were a hyper calvinist, I could care less about missions, or evangelism, however, the point is, I do care for missions, and evangelism because it is not for me to decide who goes to heaven or hell, it is up to God. My job is to spread the Gospel, and TEACH them to go out and be witnesses. If i fail to do my job, I shall reap the consequences. I am a calvinist because I tend to agree with Calvin's writings, but I do not base my theology solely on his writings, that would be fatalistic in and of itself. This is why I hate using the word calvinist because it often provokes emotions that are not charitable to those who assume the position of a calvinist. I'm sure as you read my posts, I go to the Scriptures above any thing a man has to say. I only include essays and quotes because i believe they will convey better what I am trying to say than I can. I do not mean this as a rebuttal, but to maybe clear up a few issues that may be running through your mind. I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences with a "calvinist" or someone who has assumed that position and been reckless with their words. Re-read what it says at the bottom of my posts: "Language is a powerful tool. It can build up and destroy. How will you choose to use this tool?" I hope that I can be a blessing to you in the future and that God will continue to guide you in your day to day walk with Him. Consider no harsh feelings from me to you as well.

I think this will about wrap up my reflections on these previous posts. God Bles

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I must ask you Joshua, do you believe some people were created to go to hell, that they have no chance for redemption?

I have read many of your posts on here and so far have not disagreed with them. There are many people of different denominations that fall into that same category, thinking they know who is saved and who is going to hell. I agree that we are not the ones to make that decision and I am sure that many of those people will be surprised when the time comes to stand before our Lord.

Taking a stand for the Word of God is what we are told to do and should do. I have been kicked out of some churches for doing just that. It didn't stop and won't.



Amen!

Hello Marc_Serv,

Let's just make this as simple as possible:

1 John 5:7 KJV  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Do you understand and agree with 1 John 5:7?  YES or NO

Pastor Roger:

Let's just chalk this one up to speaking before thinking? LOL. It's quite allright with me brother.

Cris...I will choose not to answer your question because without fully explaining it and possibly taking up 15 pages of threads, and still would not be finished explaining I cannot fully  answer that question. Sipmly because I do not feel it necessary to do so. I will simply respond with: Who knows the mind of God? I will not say for certain whether someone is or is not created to go to hell. I do know God's nature that has been revealed in Scripture, therefore I will not conjecture to make such an absolute statement because it will spark a fierce debate over calvinism and armenianism and I have read your remarks concerning calvinists, so you will come to the table with such pre-suppositions that will be impossible to respond with. Thus. I refrain from answering this question you have posed. I apologize if I have disappointed you.

Coram Deo,
Joshua

I understand, you may not directly to say it but I know what you mean you came to indirect character assasination. But I am sure that you get more hard on to understand this english of mind as when I said  "and these three are one but not trinity" because you refuse to believe.

The the problem with the Trinity proponent what they say is not thesame what in thier heart. They confess by their lips that their is one God but in their hearts and mind they are polytheistic.

I may come to believe in you that indeed there was a three person of God but it does'nt mean that they simultaneously existed from eternity to eternity.

During the time of 200-300 A.D. many Christians were trying to formulate and understanding of the nature of God. Tertullian is credited with being the one who coined the term “trinity.” The Nicene Creed in 325 A.D. also seemed to accept a similar view concerning God. The word trinity comes from a compounding of the word three (tri) and unity, therefore “trinity.” The concept of the trinity is generally understood that God is three persons who share one essence. If this were all that the word “trinity” meant, I believe I would be on board with its teaching. But the reason that Alexander and Thomas Campbell, John Calvin, and Barton W. Stone were so strongly against the use of the trinity seems to be twofold.

The doctrine of the trinity led to many to pray to the trinity. Instead of addressing the Father as the one we pray to and Christ being our Mediator to bring our petitions on our behalf, the doctrine led to people blending the three together so strongly that there was no distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the trinity has also led to the other extreme, that is, overemphasizing the individuality of the three. The doctrine of the trinity creates, I believe, too sharp of a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What has nearly happened is that the teaching has created an almost polytheism, that there are three separate gods that function completely without the other. Some are teaching that one should only be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and not in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as commanded in Matt 28:18-19. One of the problems with this, and there are many, is that one has created too much of a distinction as if Jesus is a separate God from the Father and Holy Spirit. But I believe the scriptures teach against this as well.

There are clear biblical teachings that tell is that there is one God. Deut 6:4 says,  “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” Also, in Eph 4:6 we read that there is “one God and Father of all.” In Mark 12:29 we read, “Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Jesus understood that there is one God and taught that to those who would come to Him.

But this immediately should leave in our minds a dilemma. If there is one God, how is it that Jesus claimed to be God? This, of course, was one of the arguments that the religious leaders in Jesus’ day were using against Him. How could Jesus be God? Make no mistake about it, Jesus claimed to be God, was proven to be God, and the apostolic writers verify that Jesus is God. John 1:1-3 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” In John 1, the Word is identified as Jesus who came to earth as the light of the world. The multitudes and religious leaders understood that Jesus claimed to be God. In John 5:18, “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.” Many other passages such as Colossians 1:15-18 and Heb 1:2 verify Jesus to be the creator and in the beginning and therefore God. Again, we must ask the question, how can it be that God is one when we see that Jesus is God and the Father is God?

From the beginning God revealed that there was more than one person that make up God. In Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God….” The Hebrew word for God is “el.” However, that is not the Hebrew word that was used when God described Himself to the world. Instead, He used the Hebrew word “elohim” which is the plural of “el.” This plurality is seen in the word more clearly in Exodus 20:3,  “you shall have no other gods before Me.” The word “gods” is “elohim.” Some suggest that the plurality of the word suggests that is denotes majesty and glory. While this may be true concerning other texts, it cannot be true here because the plurality is more distinct later in Genesis 1. This plurality can even be seen in our own English language in Gen 1:26, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” If there were only one person, then these words do not make sense. The sentence ought to read, “Then God said, ‘I will make man in My image, according to My likeness.” But we have already noticed that there was more than one person in the beginning. John 1:1-3 tells us that there the Word was there in the beginning, creating with the Father.

it is as good a time as any to also point out that the Holy Spirit is God also. In Heb 9:14 we read that the Spirit is eternal. In 1 Peter 1:12 we read that, the Holy Spirit was sent from heaven, yet another indication that the Holy Spirit is God. In Acts 5:3-4 we see that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, which Peter says is lying to God. However, possibly one of the clearest texts is in 1 Peter 1:1-2, “To the pilgrim…, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” Here we are revealed that there are three persons in God who are active in the salvation of the elect. Now, when I use the word “person,” I do not use it as if they were human. By person I am simply describing an essence with a center of intelligence that is distinct from the other.

Hope this helps you marc_serv.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Job 6:10 Then would I still have consolation--yes, I would leap [for joy] amid unsparing pain [though I shrink from it]--that I have not concealed or denied the words of the Holy One!

marc_serv,



Are you saying that all three could not be with us all at the same time and still be one?

I have a question. If Paul did not believe in a "trinity" or a triune God, then why did he write in Philippians 2 this:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Is not Paul saying that Jesus Christ is God. If that is so, then it must also be asked, did Paul believe that the Holy Spirit was God? Of course he did. Paul understood that Jesus Christ was God, the Holy Spirit was of God and that God the Father was God. Thus, three-in-one or as Colossians 2 says "For in Him dwells the Godhead bodily" Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

I mean the three modes of God succedingly acted only in thier time of dispensations, that each of their time dispensation did acted according to their persona description. but in His persona description as God this always remain.

Colosians 2 the verse you qouted only prove the Oneness teaching that the Godhead fully dwells in Christ that made the three all in one in Christ.
Im very sorry to tell you Jemidon2004 that this is not the case being taught by an orthodox Trinitarian because they only believed that Jesus separetly distinct from the other two.

You describe person as an essence with a center of intelligence that is distinct from the other. You mean in the three persons of God each of them possesed an intellect?

Are all of this three intellects of God are all-kowing God??

Hmm  ......  "three modes of God". Now you are just starting to get the idea behind the Trinity. However to say that they were not and could not be in existance all at the same time would be to limit the power of God. If I understand you correctly this is what you are saying.

The Bible tells us that Jesus was the Word and was with God from the beginning, that He came down from heaven, at this moment Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, and the Bible also tells us that He is God. Yet Jesus said during the time He was here on earth that the Father was still in Heaven and prayed to Him. So what you are saying is not even in line with what the Bible tells us.

Never the Oneness limit the power of God we even believed that God not only capable to manifest himself into three He could even manifest into millions. The point here if God of the millions of manifestations how many will and mind as a person of God there could be? Does it mean that one God who manifest into millions there could be a millions of different wills and minds of God. So, in the case of the Son, the Son as God only revealed the person of the Father that is the will and the mind of the Father, and not He has own personality(own will and mind of God apart from the Father.)

The distinction of the Son and the Father only take place during the Incarnation, and if John made the Word and God being distinct just because of his perception of the Incarnation that God separate himself from his humanity and it was apparent during the earthly life of Jesus as Jesus  possesed a weak will to go not with the cup of calvary and  He did not know about his second coming.

About Jesus pray to God, this will be no longer happen after the earthly life of Jesus because Jesus as a Father will now come to hear the prayers of the believers(see John....)

As for Jesus sitting at the right hand of God cannot be literally interpreted, no one actually saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, even John in Revelation saw everything in heaven but never saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God but instead saw only Jesus with the throne in final chapter of Revltion and Jesus alone sitting at the White Throne judgement.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were clearly mentioned in creation as the CREATOR.

It's really all very simple. The Holy Trinity had no beginning, and they will have no end. We are talking about ALMIGHTY GOD!

Marc, you need to read your Bible and probably use a topic index to learn and understand the truth. Maybe if you see it for yourself in the Holy Bible, you will believe it. Until then, you really need to do some Bible study for yourself. It isn't just a few verses, rather a multitude of verses, and you will need to start in the Old Testament.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

God also clearly says He alone the creator, how you understand alone is that plural?

I also read from the Bible this statement "unto God and to the Father", does it mean that God and the Father separately distinct?

The original word used in the verse that you are referring to (Eph 5:20) is "kai" for the word "and" which can also be interpreted to  "and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet". This is not the case with the other verses that you have been given in reference to the Tinity. Take note of the same verse in the NIV:

20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So your argument based on this verse is non-existant.

Your complete argument is not about the three because even you called them the "three modes of God". Your only problem is with the word "trinity" itself yet the word Trinity can and is equal to the "three modes of God" that you also used. So it boils down to one fact and one alone .... you just don't like the word Trinity.

We are just human beings, part of HIS Creation. The best thing to do is simply accept what the Bible says about ALMIGHTY GOD as being absolute FACT. Simple humans aren't supposed to understand everything about ALMIGHTY GOD, and the Holy Bible clearly tells us that many of ALMIGHTY GOD'S ways are past finding out. No man can look upon the countenance of GOD THE FATHER. Many men have looked at and talked with JESUS CHRIST (THE SON). All true Born-Again Christians have GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT living in their hearts. JESUS CHRIST died on the Cross for our sins, but GOD THE FATHER and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT did not die on the Cross for our sins. GOD THE FATHER was in Heaven while JESUS was dying on the Cross, and JESUS prayed to Him. When the physical body of JESUS CHRIST died on the Cross, the HOLY GHOST (HOLY SPIRIT) was given up by that dead physical body, and the HOLY SPIRIT still lived. JESUS CHRIST arose from the dead and talked with many witnesses. JESUS told His followers that HE was going to a place that they could not go or follow, but JESUS promised that He would send a COMFORTER. The COMFORTER was and is the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD.

The above is only part of the basics about what the Holy Bible teaches us about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are facts, not suppositions or opinions. The biggest fact is there are THREE IN THE GODHEAD and the THREE ARE ONE. The Holy Bible does use the term "GODHEAD", and there is a reason for that.

It is impossible for any man to adequately define or imagine the MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF GOD THE FATHER!

It is impossible for any man to adequately define or imagine the MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF GOD THE SON!

It is impossible for any man to adequately define or imagine the MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT!

There are THREE members of the GODHEAD: GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. YET, THE THREE ARE ONE! If it is impossible for any man to adequately define or imagine the MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF any separate member of the GODHEAD - any ONE OF THE THREE - how much more impossible would it be to define or imagine the MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF ALMIGHTY GOD????

Brothers and Sisters, we can't begin to imagine what an AWESOME GOD we serve. Just the thought of HIM should invoke fear, respect, reverence, praise, thanks, and worship. These are the right thoughts about ALMIGHTY GOD, and these thoughts grow stronger as we mature and grow in the WORD of GOD. Here's one last beautiful thought on this matter:


The WORD is still GOD, and HE is our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Hebrews 11:1-3 NASB  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Romans 5:17-18 NASB  For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

1 Timothy 4:4-6 NASB  For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

1 John 1:3 NASB  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Matthew 11:27 NASB  "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

2 Corinthians 5:5-8 NASB  Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

As you said Christ died and the other two God did not died.
My question to you now, where was the Word during the death of Christ? Do you mean that the Word who is Jesus died?

The WORD is JESUS CHRIST. Marc, you really should learn the basics before you come onto a Christian forum and try to promote a false doctrine. You really need to get away from whoever your false teacher is and start over. I am stating one more time that the false "Oneness" doctrine will NOT be taught here. There won't be any more warnings, public or private.

Moderator

Brothers and Sisters,

This thread is closed. It actually represents an effort by one person to teach a false oneness doctrine that is foreign to Christianity.

Several warnings have already been issued to marc_serv, and this is a final notice that the oneness false doctrine will not be taught here.

marc_serv, your next post on this false doctrine will be deleted and you will be banned.